LDS Freedom Forum

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 12:05 am

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 4:02 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 3:19 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 3:14 pm

There are both wicked and righteous in the telestial world. Section 76 tells us this. We have both heirs of salvation and sons of perdition in the telestial kingdom.

So Satan and his angels will be sent to the Telestial kingdom? Absolutely, unequivocally not.

I wonder if someone is pulling our leg. Those going to the telestial world are not spiritually dead as are the sons of perdition. This is known as the second death.

D&C 76
31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.


Notice in verse 35 it tells us that it is those who had received the Holy Ghost that can become sons of perdition having denied him and become totally rebellious against God, not every wicked person on earth. They have not received the HG.

Anyone who refuses to repent will become a son of perdition. In the end there will be only two heads that men fall under- God or Satan.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 12:44 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 12:05 am

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 4:02 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 3:19 pm

So Satan and his angels will be sent to the Telestial kingdom? Absolutely, unequivocally not.

I wonder if someone is pulling our leg. Those going to the telestial world are not spiritually dead as are the sons of perdition. This is known as the second death.

D&C 76
31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.


Notice in verse 35 it tells us that it is those who had received the Holy Ghost that can become sons of perdition having denied him and become totally rebellious against God, not every wicked person on earth. They have not received the HG.

Anyone who refuses to repent will become a son of perdition. In the end there will be only two heads that men fall under- God or Satan.

What is your sources on this, because scripture does not teach this.

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 6:53 amWe know that Christ saves all except the son's of perdition. Christ can only save those who believe and repent. Thus, only the "righteous" are saved from the eternal hell. Here are a few select scriptures explaining this-

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.
4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.
5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory. (D&C 19:3-7)

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;
44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;
45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (D&C 29:27-28, 43-45)

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 6:53 am

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 12:44 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 12:05 am

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 4:02 pm
I wonder if someone is pulling our leg. Those going to the telestial world are not spiritually dead as are the sons of perdition. This is known as the second death.

D&C 76
31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.


Notice in verse 35 it tells us that it is those who had received the Holy Ghost that can become sons of perdition having denied him and become totally rebellious against God, not every wicked person on earth. They have not received the HG.

Anyone who refuses to repent will become a son of perdition. In the end there will be only two heads that men fall under- God or Satan.

What is your sources on this, because scripture does not teach this.

We know that Christ saves all except the son's of perdition. Christ can only save those who believe and repent. Thus, only the "righteous" are saved from the eternal hell. Here are a few select scriptures explaining this-

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.
4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.
5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory. (D&C 19:3-7)

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;
44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;
45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (D&C 29:27-28, 43-45)

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 20th, 2019, 8:11 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 6:53 am

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 12:44 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 12:05 am

Anyone who refuses to repent will become a son of perdition. In the end there will be only two heads that men fall under- God or Satan.

What is your sources on this, because scripture does not teach this.

We know that Christ saves all except the son's of perdition. Christ can only save those who believe and repent. Thus, only the "righteous" are saved from the eternal hell. Here are a few select scriptures explaining this-

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.
4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.
5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory. (D&C 19:3-7)

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;
44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;
45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (D&C 29:27-28, 43-45)

If what you are saying is true then millions if not billions will be sent to outer darkness. In which case in heaven we must have been told we had a very low chance of making it back to live with God again.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 10:42 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 6:53 amWe know that Christ saves all except the son's of perdition. Christ can only save those who believe and repent. Thus, only the "righteous" are saved from the eternal hell. Here are a few select scriptures explaining this-

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.
4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.
5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory. (D&C 19:3-7)

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;
44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;
45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (D&C 29:27-28, 43-45)

Mosiah 2
36 And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom’s paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved—
37 I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples.
38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.
39 And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.

I see why you conclude the way you do. Nonetheless, there must be a discrepancy between the Book of Mormon and D&C 76.
One one hand we read that those who turn from God and totally rebel against him become sons of perdition. On the other hand, you're saying that all the wicked no matter how bad they are become sons of perdition. I conclude we're at an impasse. There just has to be something we're missing to explain where either one of us has gone wrong, or some points that would distinguish the two, ie, all wicked or only those who make a law unto themselves.

I think this is one main point that has to be seriously considered:

D&C 76
35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

I personally don't think that all wicked persons are doing this. Committing sin and not repenting is one thing, but sinning to the point of claiming God does not exist or denying Christ and the Holy Ghost, perhaps to the point of cursing them has got to be much worse.

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 12:13 amThe gospel are all in harmony. Most of who we call the "wicked" will indeed repent and change in order to be saved.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 1:44 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 12:13 amThe gospel are all in harmony. Most of who we call the "wicked" will indeed repent and change in order to be saved.

I don't think so. Read this from D&C 76:

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

And:

Matt. 7:13
13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

This tells us that millions upon millions of people will go to the telestial glory after the resurrection.
This world we live in now may be called telestial, but the big difference is that people here can kill one another, whereas, in the future telestial glory men cannot kill one another because they are resurrected spirit beings that cannot die ever again...and Satan is not allowed in that kingdom to tempt anyone to sin. These souls have already gone to hell, paid the price having suffered for their own sins and are now redeemed. But they cannot have an increase, verse 112 above.

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 8:49 amSo, where would these wicked, yet redeemed souls fit in these verses?-

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting (b)fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:27-28)

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 3:28 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 8:49 amSo, where would these wicked, yet redeemed souls fit in these verses?-

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting (b)fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:27-28)

(b)D&C 43:33
33 And the wicked shall go away into unquenchable fire, and their end no man knoweth on earth, nor ever shall know, until they come before me in judgment.


Then we have:

D&C 19:3
3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.

D&C 19
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

So the wicked will suffer for their own sins, then at some point be placed into the telestial kingdom. D&C 76

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 3:28 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 8:49 amSo, where would these wicked, yet redeemed souls fit in these verses?-

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting (b)fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:27-28)

(b)D&C 43:33
33 And the wicked shall go away into unquenchable fire, and their end no man knoweth on earth, nor ever shall know, until they come before me in judgment.


Then we have:

D&C 19:3
3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.

D&C 19
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

So the wicked will suffer for their own sins, then at some point be placed into the telestial kingdom. D&C 76

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 3:41 pm

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 3:28 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 8:49 amSo, where would these wicked, yet redeemed souls fit in these verses?-

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting (b)fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:27-28)

(b)D&C 43:33
33 And the wicked shall go away into unquenchable fire, and their end no man knoweth on earth, nor ever shall know, until they come before me in judgment.


Then we have:

D&C 19:3
3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.

D&C 19
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

So the wicked will suffer for their own sins, then at some point be placed into the telestial kingdom. D&C 76

So if we leave this life with even one sin then we will suffer? Do we need to be perfect when we die?

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 3:41 pm

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 3:28 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 8:49 amSo, where would these wicked, yet redeemed souls fit in these verses?-

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting (b)fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:27-28)

(b)D&C 43:33
33 And the wicked shall go away into unquenchable fire, and their end no man knoweth on earth, nor ever shall know, until they come before me in judgment.


Then we have:

D&C 19:3
3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.

D&C 19
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

So the wicked will suffer for their own sins, then at some point be placed into the telestial kingdom. D&C 76

So if we leave this life with even one sin then we will suffer? Do we need to be perfect when we die?

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 3:46 pmGo and study the timing of these events of the scriptures quoted. They come after resurrection at the end of the millennium.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 5:16 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 9:49 am

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 10:22 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 12:12 pm Think of it as on a scale. On the one side are the sons of God and on the other the sons of perdition. Righteousness leads one to become a son of God while wickdness leads one to become a son of perdition. That will be the only two classifications in the end- righteous and thus a son of God or wicked and thus a son of perdition. Either we will love God and seek to be like him and become a son of God in his kingdom or we will hate God, love Satan and become a son of perdition in the devils kingdom.

Being wicked in and of itself does not qualify a person to become a son of perdition. These types of people will spend time in hell but after suffering for their own sins will end up in the telestial kingdom.

Those who totally rebel against God and become a law unto themselves are apt to become son's of perdition. Cain is one of them. In fact, Cain will rule over Satan. How?

Moses 5
23 If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted. And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan desireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt rule over him;

24 For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.

30 And Satan sware unto Cain that he would do according to his commands. And all these things were done in secret.

31 And Cain said: Truly I am Mahan, the master of this great secret, that I may murder and get gain. Wherefore Cain was called Master Mahan, and he gloried in his wickedness.

The end state of man is either righteous and a son of God or wicked and a son of perdition.

Incorrect. Read D&C 76:30-49 and 81-85 and 91 There we learn a big difference between those who go to hell and those who become sons of perdition.

If all the wicked were sons of perdition then what is the telestial kingdom for?


37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 9:59 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 3:46 pmGo and study the timing of these events of the scriptures quoted. They come after resurrection at the end of the millennium.

Not so.

Alma 40
9 Therefore, there is a time appointed unto men that they shall rise from the dead; and there is a space between the time of death and the resurrection. And now, concerning this space of time, what becometh of the souls of men is the thing which I have inquired diligently of the Lord to know; and this is the thing of which I do know.

10 And when the time cometh when all shall rise, then shall they know that God knoweth all the times which are appointed unto man.

11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

21...but this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

What did Jesus say to one of the other men being, also, on a cross?

Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So even Jesus had to go to paradise before his resurrection and standing before the Father.

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 10:10 pmThe first scriptures you previously posted all referred to the judgment after the millennium and resurrection.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 12:33 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 10:10 pmThe first scriptures you previously posted all referred to the judgment after the millennium and resurrection.

I'd say the ball is in your court at this point to prove your point. I have shown you from scripture point after point concerning this topic. If you have an entirely different belief then at least I can say I have done my part, that is all I can do.

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 7:25 am

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 12:33 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 10:10 pmThe first scriptures you previously posted all referred to the judgment after the millennium and resurrection.

I'd say the ball is in your court at this point to prove your point. I have shown you from scripture point after point concerning this topic. If you have an entirely different belief then at least I can say I have done my part, that is all I can do.

Okay, you first quoted D&C 43:33. It reads-


33 And the wicked shall go away into unquenchable fire, and their end no man knoweth on earth, nor ever shall know, until they come before me in judgment.

If we read the previous verses it places the timing after the millennium and resurrection. Those verses read-

30 For the great Millennium, of which I have spoken by the mouth of my servants, shall come.
31 For Satan shall be bound, and when he is loosed again he shall only reign for a little season, and then cometh the end of the earth.
32 And he that liveth in righteousness shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and the earth shall pass away so as by fire.

There can be no doubt that this judgment is after the millennium.

The next scriptures you quoted were from section 19. In particular verse 3-

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.

This is also speaking of the last judgment after the millennium. Read the verses that follow-up

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.
5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

Now, compare these verses with those from section 29 which read-

22 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you that when the thousand years are ended, and men again begin to deny their God, then will I spare the earth but for a little season;
23 And the end shall come, and the heaven and the earth shall be consumed and pass away, and there shall be a new heaven and a new earth.
24 For all old things shall pass away, and all things shall become new, even the heaven and the earth, and all the fulness thereof, both men and beasts, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the sea;
25 And not one hair, neither mote, shall be lost, for it is the workmanship of mine hand.
26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.
27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

The judgments spoken of in all these verses is after the millennium. God cannot nor willnot save the wicked. Neither do wicked pay the price themselves and become cleansed through their suffering. No suffering we do on our part has cleansing power. Only through Christ's blood of the atonement coupled with our repentance from all sin has the power to cleanse. Thus, without accepting Christ and his gospel a wicked person will be cast into outer darkness at the great day of judgment.

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 7:25 amThe judgments spoken of in all these verses is after the millennium. God cannot nor willnot save the wicked. Neither do wicked pay the price themselves and become cleansed through their suffering. No suffering we do on our part has cleansing power. Only through Christ's blood of the atonement coupled with our repentance from all sin has the power to cleanse. Thus, without accepting Christ and his gospel a wicked person will be cast into outer darkness at the great day of judgment.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 4:12 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 7:25 am

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 12:33 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 10:10 pmThe first scriptures you previously posted all referred to the judgment after the millennium and resurrection.

I'd say the ball is in your court at this point to prove your point. I have shown you from scripture point after point concerning this topic. If you have an entirely different belief then at least I can say I have done my part, that is all I can do.

Okay, you first quoted D&C 43:33. It reads-


33 And the wicked shall go away into unquenchable fire, and their end no man knoweth on earth, nor ever shall know, until they come before me in judgment.

If we read the previous verses it places the timing after the millennium and resurrection. Those verses read-

30 For the great Millennium, of which I have spoken by the mouth of my servants, shall come.
31 For Satan shall be bound, and when he is loosed again he shall only reign for a little season, and then cometh the end of the earth.
32 And he that liveth in righteousness shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and the earth shall pass away so as by fire.

There can be no doubt that this judgment is after the millennium.

The next scriptures you quoted were from section 19. In particular verse 3-

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.

This is also speaking of the last judgment after the millennium. Read the verses that follow-up

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.
5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

Now, compare these verses with those from section 29 which read-

22 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you that when the thousand years are ended, and men again begin to deny their God, then will I spare the earth but for a little season;
23 And the end shall come, and the heaven and the earth shall be consumed and pass away, and there shall be a new heaven and a new earth.
24 For all old things shall pass away, and all things shall become new, even the heaven and the earth, and all the fulness thereof, both men and beasts, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the sea;
25 And not one hair, neither mote, shall be lost, for it is the workmanship of mine hand.
26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.
27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

The judgments spoken of in all these verses is after the millennium. God cannot nor willnot save the wicked. Neither do wicked pay the price themselves and become cleansed through their suffering. No suffering we do on our part has cleansing power. Only through Christ's blood of the atonement coupled with our repentance from all sin has the power to cleanse. Thus, without accepting Christ and his gospel a wicked person will be cast into outer darkness at the great day of judgment.

D&C 29:28 was quoted first, then D&C 93:3. 93:3 is a reference linked to 29:18 . So now the topic of sons of perdition and who can become one has changed to the judgement and when it takes place. What is the purpose of this? There is no doubt the judgement comes at the end of the world. This could be when all people will be sent to one of the three degrees of heaven, ie, telestial, terrestrial and celestial, dependent upon when God sees fit to end the torment of the wicked in hell. This earth we are standing on will become the celestial at its rebirth.

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 7:25 amThe judgments spoken of in all these verses is after the millennium. God cannot nor willnot save the wicked. Neither do wicked pay the price themselves and become cleansed through their suffering. No suffering we do on our part has cleansing power. Only through Christ's blood of the atonement coupled with our repentance from all sin has the power to cleanse. Thus, without accepting Christ and his gospel a wicked person will be cast into outer darkness at the great day of judgment.

You said:God cannot nor will not save the wicked. Are you one hundred % sure concerning this statement? After all the scriptural proof posted you still make such a claim?

You said:Neither do wicked pay the price themselves and become cleansed through their suffering. I have posted scripture proving this to be false. Let's see what he said, once again:

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

Are you calling God a liar? And nothing was said about them becoming cleansed, they are to suffer for their sins and then be placed in the telestial kingdom. I would think that these souls still have the stain of sin, but are released from their lengthy suffering, when God decides it is it over, in order to dwell in that glory, because it is a kingdom of glory which surpasses our understanding.
It is those going to the celestial kingdom that must be cleansed from all sin through the blood of the Lamb.

You said:No suffering we do on our part has cleansing power. True. However, those turned over to the buffetings of Satan will have a different opinion. And those who sin and sin over again and again suffer pain, anguish, shame, torment and profound guilt may debate you on this.
Yet the suffering God mentions will be as stated here:

D&C 19:15
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.


You said:Only through Christ's blood of the atonement coupled with our repentance from all sin has the power to cleanse. True

You said:Thus, without accepting Christ and his gospel a wicked person will be cast into outer darkness at the great day of judgment. This statement needs more detailed explanation.
Are you referring to those who hear the gospel for the first time and then reject it?
Those who accept the gospel, live it for a while and then turn away?
Those who have never heard it but because they are wicked they are doomed to be sent into outer darkness?
How about those who have never heard the gospel or know nothing about God, live wickedly, yet if they were to hear the gospel would embrace it fully? Are they still doomed to be cast out?

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 4:48 pm Let's break down the following verses:

D&C 76
81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit. This is absolute proof that they are not sons of perdition

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.


Cheetos, did you read the OP? The majority of our discussion is within it. If so, do you not believe key points that correlate with my statements?

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 7:16 pmCross reference verse 103 and tell me what you come up with.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 10:47 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 7:16 pmCross reference verse 103 and tell me what you come up with.

These are they that will not be brought forth at the first resurrection. The first resurrection is reserved for the righteous only. All others come forth at any subsequent resurrection.
All will be saved except sons of perdition.

Sorry, I don't want another debate?

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 11:50 pm

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 10:47 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 7:16 pmCross reference verse 103 and tell me what you come up with.

These are they that will not be brought forth at the first resurrection. The first resurrection is reserved for the righteous only. All others come forth at any subsequent resurrection.
All will be saved except sons of perdition.

Sorry, I don't want another debate?

Cross reference it to the verse in Revelations.