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Just to be clear, I don't believe I've told you what I believe.Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 8:58 amI believe section 138.
You must admit then that you dismiss section 138 as false doctrine.
57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.
Hey, FYIrighteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 1:07 pm57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.
58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
60 Thus was the vision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me, and I bear record, and I know that this record is true, through the blessing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, even so. Amen.
................................................................................................................................................................
Let's be clear that you said God cannot save the wicked, and that the wicked are all sons of perdition; now being saved by elders preaching to them, and that they now are heirs of salvation. Why in the world do you contradict yourself?
To get it straight, If they all were sons of perdition, they could not become heirs of salvation. Also note in verse 59, the wicked dead pay for their transgressions before being taught the gospel...just as I said they would. I said they would suffer for their own sins and then go to the telestial kingdom which is a kingdom of glory, thus they are saved.
Another thing, if you wait until after death to repent you will be one of those who will suffer for your own sins in hell and then receive a much lesser kingdom than you suppose. Do you really want to take that route?
I've stated that I believe in certain truths that aren't in the scriptures, he followed up with that ^^.Cheetos wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 12:49 pm I agree. I have my own personal view of heaven that doesnt include the three world salvation model. With being born again I think perhaps we put too much into it in defining it. We both agree that it is more of an event, we just disagree on what the event is.
Only for those consigned for hell. Why would any person knowing the gospel of Christ put off repentance until going to hell. This life a the time to repent and gain celestial glory, not after death. Unless a person fully repents in this life, hell is the default setting, because if a man does not put off the natural man, they are an enemy to God and will go to hell. D&C 138 does not cover this.Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 8:15 amSo, just throw out D&C 138? We are talking about if it's possible to repent after death. D&C 138 says yes it's a reality.Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 8:09 am President Nelson disagrees with Cheetos. But Cheetos has faith in President Nelson as a prophet, seer and revelator. What a dilemma.
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Thankfully, I am not this man’s judge. But I do question the efficacy of proxy temple work for a man who had the opportunity to be baptized in this life—to be ordained to the priesthood and receive temple blessings while here in mortality—but who made the conscious decision to reject that course.
My dear brothers and sisters, Jesus Christ invites us to take the covenant path back home to our Heavenly Parents and be with those we love. He invites us to “come, follow me.”
Now, as President of His Church, I plead with you who have distanced yourselves from the Church and with you who have not yet really sought to know that the Savior’s Church has been restored. Do the spiritual work to find out for yourselves, and please do it now. Time is running out.
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... n?lang=eng
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"Time is running out." Sounds like Alma 34:32.
Well, I guess he is in for a biiiiiig surprise. I showed him where he mistakenly says he can repent after this life. He believes all the wicked are sons of perdition, then turns around and claims they can repent without any suffering on their part. Good luck with that!Stahura wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 4:22 pmHey, FYIrighteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 1:07 pm57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.
58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
60 Thus was the vision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me, and I bear record, and I know that this record is true, through the blessing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, even so. Amen.
................................................................................................................................................................
Let's be clear that you said God cannot save the wicked, and that the wicked are all sons of perdition; now being saved by elders preaching to them, and that they now are heirs of salvation. Why in the world do you contradict yourself?
To get it straight, If they all were sons of perdition, they could not become heirs of salvation. Also note in verse 59, the wicked dead pay for their transgressions before being taught the gospel...just as I said they would. I said they would suffer for their own sins and then go to the telestial kingdom which is a kingdom of glory, thus they are saved.
Another thing, if you wait until after death to repent you will be one of those who will suffer for your own sins in hell and then receive a much lesser kingdom than you suppose. Do you really want to take that route?
Cheetos said this elsewhere:
I've stated that I believe in certain truths that aren't in the scriptures, he followed up with that ^^.Cheetos wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 12:49 pm I agree. I have my own personal view of heaven that doesnt include the three world salvation model. With being born again I think perhaps we put too much into it in defining it. We both agree that it is more of an event, we just disagree on what the event is.
Difference is, those truths I refer to literally aren't in the scriptures and the scriptures don't have any direct contradiction either.
He has chosen to believe a different model of heaven that directly contradict the scriptures(at least D&C) and he wholeheartedly believes it, so it won't be a fruitful conversation. He is fully aware of all the scriptures you share, he just doesn't believe them.
I don't think you understand what I am saying at all. You assume too much and chop it all up in trying to understand what I am saying.righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 1:07 pm57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.
58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
60 Thus was the vision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me, and I bear record, and I know that this record is true, through the blessing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, even so. Amen.
................................................................................................................................................................
Let's be clear that you said God cannot save the wicked, and that the wicked are all sons of perdition; now being saved by elders preaching to them, and that they now are heirs of salvation. Why in the world do you contradict yourself?
To get it straight, If they all were sons of perdition, they could not become heirs of salvation. Also note in verse 59, the wicked dead pay for their transgressions before being taught the gospel...just as I said they would. I said they would suffer for their own sins and then go to the telestial kingdom which is a kingdom of glory, thus they are saved.
Another thing, if you wait until after death to repent you will be one of those who will suffer for your own sins in hell and then receive a much lesser kingdom than you suppose. Do you really want to take that route?
Where you getting this stuff? Is there another poster with my name in here? You haven't listened to me and understood at all.righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 5:04 pmWell, I guess he is in for a biiiiiig surprise. I showed him where he mistakenly says he can repent after this life. He believes all the wicked are sons of perdition, then turns around and claims they can repent without any suffering on their part. Good luck with that!Stahura wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 4:22 pmHey, FYIrighteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 1:07 pm57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.
58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
60 Thus was the vision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me, and I bear record, and I know that this record is true, through the blessing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, even so. Amen.
................................................................................................................................................................
Let's be clear that you said God cannot save the wicked, and that the wicked are all sons of perdition; now being saved by elders preaching to them, and that they now are heirs of salvation. Why in the world do you contradict yourself?
To get it straight, If they all were sons of perdition, they could not become heirs of salvation. Also note in verse 59, the wicked dead pay for their transgressions before being taught the gospel...just as I said they would. I said they would suffer for their own sins and then go to the telestial kingdom which is a kingdom of glory, thus they are saved.
Another thing, if you wait until after death to repent you will be one of those who will suffer for your own sins in hell and then receive a much lesser kingdom than you suppose. Do you really want to take that route?
Cheetos said this elsewhere:
I've stated that I believe in certain truths that aren't in the scriptures, he followed up with that ^^.Cheetos wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 12:49 pm I agree. I have my own personal view of heaven that doesnt include the three world salvation model. With being born again I think perhaps we put too much into it in defining it. We both agree that it is more of an event, we just disagree on what the event is.
Difference is, those truths I refer to literally aren't in the scriptures and the scriptures don't have any direct contradiction either.
He has chosen to believe a different model of heaven that directly contradict the scriptures(at least D&C) and he wholeheartedly believes it, so it won't be a fruitful conversation. He is fully aware of all the scriptures you share, he just doesn't believe them.
I know exactly what you have been saying. Here are things you've said.Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:32 pmWhere you getting this stuff? Is there another poster with my name in here? You haven't listened to me and understood at all.righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 5:04 pmWell, I guess he is in for a biiiiiig surprise. I showed him where he mistakenly says he can repent after this life. He believes all the wicked are sons of perdition, then turns around and claims they can repent without any suffering on their part. Good luck with that!Stahura wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 4:22 pmHey, FYIrighteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 1:07 pm
57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.
58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
60 Thus was the vision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me, and I bear record, and I know that this record is true, through the blessing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, even so. Amen.
................................................................................................................................................................
Let's be clear that you said God cannot save the wicked, and that the wicked are all sons of perdition; now being saved by elders preaching to them, and that they now are heirs of salvation. Why in the world do you contradict yourself?
To get it straight, If they all were sons of perdition, they could not become heirs of salvation. Also note in verse 59, the wicked dead pay for their transgressions before being taught the gospel...just as I said they would. I said they would suffer for their own sins and then go to the telestial kingdom which is a kingdom of glory, thus they are saved.
Another thing, if you wait until after death to repent you will be one of those who will suffer for your own sins in hell and then receive a much lesser kingdom than you suppose. Do you really want to take that route?
Cheetos said this elsewhere:
I've stated that I believe in certain truths that aren't in the scriptures, he followed up with that ^^.Cheetos wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 12:49 pm I agree. I have my own personal view of heaven that doesnt include the three world salvation model. With being born again I think perhaps we put too much into it in defining it. We both agree that it is more of an event, we just disagree on what the event is.
Difference is, those truths I refer to literally aren't in the scriptures and the scriptures don't have any direct contradiction either.
He has chosen to believe a different model of heaven that directly contradict the scriptures(at least D&C) and he wholeheartedly believes it, so it won't be a fruitful conversation. He is fully aware of all the scriptures you share, he just doesn't believe them.
Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:32 pm On the one side are the sons of God and on the other the sons of perdition. Righteousness leads one to become a son of God while wickdness leads one to become a son of perdition. That will be the only two classifications in the end- righteous and thus a son of God or wicked and thus a son of perdition. Either we will love God and seek to be like him and become a son of God in his kingdom or we will hate God, love Satan and become a son of perdition in the devils kingdom.
I think I am justified in my conclusions. First you say all the wicked are sons of perdition. Then you say God cannot save the wicked. Then you say there is repentance after death, so why try to be perfect in life.
I think you fail to see the point I am making about the end state of man at the judgment. It's a fact that no man dies in a perfect sinless state- they aren't perfect at death. The Celestial kingdom requires perfection to enter. By perfection I mean to be completely without sin and no desire to sin, no bad thoughts, etc. So, how do we get from an imperfect state at death to a perfect state at judgment at the end of the millennium? It's rather obvious that our progress to overcome all things happens after death which includes repentance and forgiveness.righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 9:45 pmI know exactly what you have been saying. Here are things you've said.Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:32 pmWhere you getting this stuff? Is there another poster with my name in here? You haven't listened to me and understood at all.righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 5:04 pmWell, I guess he is in for a biiiiiig surprise. I showed him where he mistakenly says he can repent after this life. He believes all the wicked are sons of perdition, then turns around and claims they can repent without any suffering on their part. Good luck with that!Stahura wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 4:22 pm
Hey, FYI
Cheetos said this elsewhere:
I've stated that I believe in certain truths that aren't in the scriptures, he followed up with that ^^.
Difference is, those truths I refer to literally aren't in the scriptures and the scriptures don't have any direct contradiction either.
He has chosen to believe a different model of heaven that directly contradict the scriptures(at least D&C) and he wholeheartedly believes it, so it won't be a fruitful conversation. He is fully aware of all the scriptures you share, he just doesn't believe them.
Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:32 pm On the one side are the sons of God and on the other the sons of perdition. Righteousness leads one to become a son of God while wickdness leads one to become a son of perdition. That will be the only two classifications in the end- righteous and thus a son of God or wicked and thus a son of perdition. Either we will love God and seek to be like him and become a son of God in his kingdom or we will hate God, love Satan and become a son of perdition in the devils kingdom.I think I am justified in my conclusions. First you say all the wicked are sons of perdition. Then you say God cannot save the wicked. Then you say there is repentance after death, so why try to be perfect in life.
And I say that if man waits to repent after life, they will get no higher than the telestial kingsdon, a kingdom of glory, true, but not living with God and his Christ worlds without end, even after suffering for their own sins. D&C 76
I say that all the wicked are not sons of perdition.
Do you now deny having said these?
Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:32 pm On the one side are the sons of God and on the other the sons of perdition. Righteousness leads one to become a son of God while wickdness leads one to become a son of perdition. That will be the only two classifications in the end- righteous and thus a son of God or wicked and thus a son of perdition. Either we will love God and seek to be like him and become a son of God in his kingdom or we will hate God, love Satan and become a son of perdition in the devils kingdom.
I think I am justified in my conclusions. First you say all the wicked are sons of perdition. Then you say God cannot save the wicked. Then you say there is repentance after death, so why try to be perfect in life.
Alma 40Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:32 pmI think you fail to see the point I am making. Not hardly.
So, how do we get from an imperfect state at death to a perfect state at judgment at the end of the millennium? It's rather obvious that our progress to overcome all things happens after death which includes repentance and forgiveness. Incorrect! Read Alma 40-42 if you truly want to know.
In the end, at the great day of judgment, we will all fall into one of two categories. Either we will be found righteous or we will be found wicked. The righteous are those who have followed Christ and repented and showed obedience to the laws and ordinances of the saving gospel. The wicked are those who have turned to Satan, who do not repent.
righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 2:31 amDo you now deny having said these?
Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:32 pm On the one side are the sons of God and on the other the sons of perdition. Righteousness leads one to become a son of God while wickdness leads one to become a son of perdition. That will be the only two classifications in the end- righteous and thus a son of God or wicked and thus a son of perdition. Either we will love God and seek to be like him and become a son of God in his kingdom or we will hate God, love Satan and become a son of perdition in the devils kingdom.
I think I am justified in my conclusions. First you say all the wicked are sons of perdition. Then you say God cannot save the wicked. Then you say there is repentance after death, so why try to be perfect in life.
And I say that if man waits to repent after life, they will get no higher than the telestial kingsdon, a kingdom of glory, true, but not living with God and his Christ worlds without end, even after suffering for their own sins. D&C 76
I say that all the wicked are not sons of perdition.
Alma 40Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:32 pmI think you fail to see the point I am making. Not hardly.
So, how do we get from an imperfect state at death to a perfect state at judgment at the end of the millennium? It's rather obvious that our progress to overcome all things happens after death which includes repentance and forgiveness. Incorrect! Read Alma 40-42 if you truly want to know.
In the end, at the great day of judgment, we will all fall into one of two categories. Either we will be found righteous or we will be found wicked. The righteous are those who have followed Christ and repented and showed obedience to the laws and ordinances of the saving gospel. The wicked are those who have turned to Satan, who do not repent.
Cheetos wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 11:32 amrighteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 2:31 amDo you now deny having said these?
Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:32 pm On the one side are the sons of God and on the other the sons of perdition. Righteousness leads one to become a son of God while wickdness leads one to become a son of perdition. That will be the only two classifications in the end- righteous and thus a son of God or wicked and thus a son of perdition. Either we will love God and seek to be like him and become a son of God in his kingdom or we will hate God, love Satan and become a son of perdition in the devils kingdom.
I think I am justified in my conclusions. First you say all the wicked are sons of perdition. Then you say God cannot save the wicked. Then you say there is repentance after death, so why try to be perfect in life.
And I say that if man waits to repent after life, they will get no higher than the telestial kingsdon, a kingdom of glory, true, but not living with God and his Christ worlds without end, even after suffering for their own sins. D&C 76
I say that all the wicked are not sons of perdition.Alma 40Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:32 pmI think you fail to see the point I am making. Not hardly.
So, how do we get from an imperfect state at death to a perfect state at judgment at the end of the millennium? It's rather obvious that our progress to overcome all things happens after death which includes repentance and forgiveness. Incorrect! Read Alma 40-42 if you truly want to know.
In the end, at the great day of judgment, we will all fall into one of two categories. Either we will be found righteous or we will be found wicked. The righteous are those who have followed Christ and repented and showed obedience to the laws and ordinances of the saving gospel. The wicked are those who have turned to Satan, who do not repent.
11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the bdevil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be dweeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.
Jesus, himself, visited the Nephites. They cannot be as ignorant as thought.
What do you think about these verses? Of course, there are many others saying the wicked will go to outer darkness.
Most of what you are now saying is what I been getting at with the spirits of the wicked able to repent in spirit prison. Section 138 makes no distinction with the outcome of souls who repent, only that they "all" are given the same opportunities to repent and accept the gospel, whether they rejected it or not in mortality.righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 2:41 pmCheetos wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 11:32 amrighteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 2:31 amDo you now deny having said these?
Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:32 pm On the one side are the sons of God and on the other the sons of perdition. Righteousness leads one to become a son of God while wickdness leads one to become a son of perdition. That will be the only two classifications in the end- righteous and thus a son of God or wicked and thus a son of perdition. Either we will love God and seek to be like him and become a son of God in his kingdom or we will hate God, love Satan and become a son of perdition in the devils kingdom.
I think I am justified in my conclusions. First you say all the wicked are sons of perdition. Then you say God cannot save the wicked. Then you say there is repentance after death, so why try to be perfect in life.
And I say that if man waits to repent after life, they will get no higher than the telestial kingsdon, a kingdom of glory, true, but not living with God and his Christ worlds without end, even after suffering for their own sins. D&C 76
I say that all the wicked are not sons of perdition.Alma 40Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:32 pmI think you fail to see the point I am making. Not hardly.
So, how do we get from an imperfect state at death to a perfect state at judgment at the end of the millennium? It's rather obvious that our progress to overcome all things happens after death which includes repentance and forgiveness. Incorrect! Read Alma 40-42 if you truly want to know.
In the end, at the great day of judgment, we will all fall into one of two categories. Either we will be found righteous or we will be found wicked. The righteous are those who have followed Christ and repented and showed obedience to the laws and ordinances of the saving gospel. The wicked are those who have turned to Satan, who do not repent.
11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the bdevil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be dweeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.Jesus, himself, visited the Nephites. They cannot be as ignorant as thought.
You still skirt around and not acknowledging that you wrote the above statements. And that I do know what you have been articulating. And I imagine I'm not alone on this.
There is a space between death and the resurrection, 1) repentant and redeemed righteous to paradise, and, 2) those who chose to list ( To put (oneself) in a specific category: ) and do wickedly. https://www.thefreedictionary.com/list
While on the cross, Jesus said something that proves without a shadow of doubt there is space between death and resurrection. He and the other guy went to paradise before Jesus was resurrected three days later. Then Jesus showed himself to Mary and told her to not touch him.
Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Also:
John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Here is an additional verse to go along with those already posted above:
Alma 40:21
21 But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say; but this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.
EDIT
After some more research I found this statement in the bible dictionary concerning paradise. I STAND CORRECTED on some things. There is repentance and salvation after death to those in spirit prison, prior to their resurrection. Those who accept the gospel and repent will be allowed to enter paradise. I think that is wonderful, to say the least. Those who do not repent will go to outer darkness at their resurrection.
Here is what I found:
In the scriptures, the word paradise is used in different ways. First, it designates a place of peace and happiness in the postmortal spirit world, reserved for those who have been baptized and who have remained faithful (see Alma 40:12; Moroni 10:34). Those in spirit prison have the opportunity to learn the gospel of Jesus Christ, repent of their sins, and receive the ordinances of baptism and confirmation through the work we do in temples (see D&C 138:30–35). When they do, they may enter paradise.
A second use of the word paradise is found in Luke’s account of the Savior’s Crucifixion. When Jesus was on the cross, a thief who also was being crucified said, “Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom” (Luke 23:42). According to Luke 23:43, the Lord replied, “Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” The Prophet Joseph Smith explained that this is a mistranslation; the Lord actually said that the thief would be with Him in the world of spirits.
................................................................................................................................................................
However, I also say that those here in life, of those who know the gospel and do not repent will not have another chance to repent. Their choosing to ignore what the gospel requires know what they are doing, therefore, their punishment is fixed. This is completely different from those who do not know the gospel.
I disagree, one can choose to follow Satan and God will let them make that choice and they can become son's of perdition.Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 3:06 pm Righteousrepublic wrote: Jesus, himself, visited the Nephites.
This is the very important reason why the Book of Mormon speaks so often of a 2-way doctrine -- heaven or hell. Once a person, or a group of people have seen Christ Himself, and have felt His wounds, and know who He is, they have received enough true knowledge that they are now eligible to become sons of perdition if they deny this sure knowledge.
All people who have lived on the Earth and have not been visited by Christ, whether LDS or not, Christian or not, will not become sons of perdition. They will go to different Kingdoms of glory (in my father's house are many mansions) but not to outer darkness.
You said that all the wicked are sons of perdition. Are you now changing your tune? These are very disturbing statements in your own words:Cheetos wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 5:48 pmI disagree, one can choose to follow Satan and God will let them make that choice and they can become son's of perdition.Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 3:06 pm Righteousrepublic wrote: Jesus, himself, visited the Nephites.
This is the very important reason why the Book of Mormon speaks so often of a 2-way doctrine -- heaven or hell. Once a person, or a group of people have seen Christ Himself, and have felt His wounds, and know who He is, they have received enough true knowledge that they are now eligible to become sons of perdition if they deny this sure knowledge.
All people who have lived on the Earth and have not been visited by Christ, whether LDS or not, Christian or not, will not become sons of perdition. They will go to different Kingdoms of glory (in my father's house are many mansions) but not to outer darkness.
Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:32 pm On the one side are the sons of God and on the other the sons of perdition. Righteousness leads one to become a son of God while wickdness leads one to become a son of perdition. That will be the only two classifications in the end- righteous and thus a son of God or wicked and thus a son of perdition. Either we will love God and seek to be like him and become a son of God in his kingdom or we will hate God, love Satan and become a son of perdition in the devils kingdom.
57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.Cheetos wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 5:46 pmMost of what you are now saying is what I been getting at with the spirits of the wicked able to repent in spirit prison. Section 138 makes no distinction with the outcome of souls who repent, only that they "all" are given the same opportunities to repent and accept the gospel, whether they rejected it or not in mortality.
Rewards are based upon righteous works (ordinances and covenants).righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 7:50 pm57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.Cheetos wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 5:46 pmMost of what you are now saying is what I been getting at with the spirits of the wicked able to repent in spirit prison. Section 138 makes no distinction with the outcome of souls who repent, only that they "all" are given the same opportunities to repent and accept the gospel, whether they rejected it or not in mortality.
58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
The dead who repent does not mean all of them, it is only those that do.
They still have to pay for their own sins, then, afterward are washed clean.
Then they receive a reward according to their works, whatever they did in life.
Then they are heirs of salvation. D&C 76 says they will only gain the telestial kingdom.
Let's see if what you claim is correct.Cheetos wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 10:47 pmRewards are based upon righteous works (ordinances and covenants).righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 7:50 pm57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.Cheetos wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 5:46 pmMost of what you are now saying is what I been getting at with the spirits of the wicked able to repent in spirit prison. Section 138 makes no distinction with the outcome of souls who repent, only that they "all" are given the same opportunities to repent and accept the gospel, whether they rejected it or not in mortality.
58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
The dead who repent does not mean all of them, it is only those that do.
They still have to pay for their own sins, then, afterward are washed clean.
Then they receive a reward according to their works, whatever they did in life.
Then they are heirs of salvation. D&C 76 says they will only gain the telestial kingdom.
My point was that for the righteous, rewards are based on ordinances and covenants as they can't be judged off of what they've repented and been forgiven for because God will remember them no more.righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 11:20 pmLet's see if what you claim is correct.Cheetos wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 10:47 pmRewards are based upon righteous works (ordinances and covenants).righteousrepublic wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 7:50 pm57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.Cheetos wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 5:46 pmMost of what you are now saying is what I been getting at with the spirits of the wicked able to repent in spirit prison. Section 138 makes no distinction with the outcome of souls who repent, only that they "all" are given the same opportunities to repent and accept the gospel, whether they rejected it or not in mortality.
58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
The dead who repent does not mean all of them, it is only those that do.
They still have to pay for their own sins, then, afterward are washed clean.
Then they receive a reward according to their works, whatever they did in life.
Then they are heirs of salvation. D&C 76 says they will only gain the telestial kingdom.
Alma 41
5 The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.
6 And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness.
14 Therefore...see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again.
Proverbs 11:18
18 The wicked worketh a deceitful work: but to him that soweth righteousness shall be a sure reward.
Psalm 58:11
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.
Even the proud receive a reward:
Psalm 94:2
2 Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud.
Matthew 5:12, 46
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Well, I guess you get the point. A reward is not only covenants and ordinances, although they do apply to repentant evil doers that finally embrace the gospel. But they still have to suffer for their own sins having wasted their day of probation.
And what happened to all the wicked becoming sons of perdition?