LDS Freedom Forum

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 7:38 am So far from what I gather two no’s to believing what President Benson said.

caburnha wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 12:12 am I believe then President Spencer W Kimball was very concerned about this talk, given by then Elder Benson at BYU, because it "could be misunderstood as espousing . . . an unthinking ‘follow the leader’ mentality.”

However, the talk was allowed to stand. And since it was allowed to stand, it has been repeated many times... And since it has been repeated many times, it is now considered church doctrine.

I, for one, reject the notion that the living Church President's words trump scripture. His words should be in perfect harmony with scripture. If they happen to contradict scripture at any point, then that man's words should be deeply scrutinized.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 8:17 am

caburnha wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 12:12 am I believe then President Spencer W Kimball was very concerned about this talk, given by then Elder Benson at BYU, because it "could be misunderstood as espousing . . . an unthinking ‘follow the leader’ mentality.”

However, the talk was allowed to stand. And since it was allowed to stand, it has been repeated many times... And since it has been repeated many times, it is now considered church doctrine.

I, for one, reject the notion that the living Church President's words trump scripture. His words should be in perfect harmony with scripture. If they happen to contradict scripture at any point, then that man's words should be deeply scrutinized.

Do you believe President Kimball when he said:

“I have heard President Joseph F. Smith and all who have followed him up to now. I was thrilled at their utterances and took their warnings seriously, even as a young man. These men are among the prophets of God, just as were the prophets of the Book of Mormon and of the Bible. I do not remember ever feeling that these men pulled any punches or that their counsel went unheeded.

Various excuses have been used over the centuries to dismiss these divine messengers. There has been denial because the prophet came from an obscure place. “Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth?” (John 1:46.) Jesus was also met with the question, “Is not this the carpenter’s son?” (Matt. 13:55.) By one means or another, the swiftest method of rejection of the holy prophets has been to find a pretext, however false or absurd, to dismiss the man so that his message could also be dismissed. Prophets who were not glib, but slow of speech, were esteemed as naught. Instead of responding to Paul’s message, some saw his bodily presence as weak and regarded his speech as contemptible. Perhaps they judged Paul by the timbre of his voice or by his style of speech, not the truths uttered by him.

“I have heard President Joseph F. Smith and all who have followed him up to now. I was thrilled at their utterances and took their warnings seriously, even as a young man. These men are among the prophets of God, just as were the prophets of the Book of Mormon and of the Bible. I do not remember ever feeling that these men pulled any punches or that their counsel went unheeded.

Various excuses have been used over the centuries to dismiss these divine messengers. There has been denial because the prophet came from an obscure place. “Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth?” (John 1:46.) Jesus was also met with the question, “Is not this the carpenter’s son?” (Matt. 13:55.) By one means or another, the swiftest method of rejection of the holy prophets has been to find a pretext, however false or absurd, to dismiss the man so that his message could also be dismissed. Prophets who were not glib, but slow of speech, were esteemed as naught. Instead of responding to Paul’s message, some saw his bodily presence as weak and regarded his speech as contemptible. Perhaps they judged Paul by the timbre of his voice or by his style of speech, not the truths uttered by him.

Of course, rejection of the holy prophets comes because the hearts of people are hardened, as people are shaped by their society. Yet even when the hardening is swift, it can also be subtle.

Let us harken to those we sustain as prophets and seers, as well as the other brethren as if our eternal life depended upon it, because it does!”

Stahura wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 8:30 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 8:17 am

caburnha wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 12:12 am I believe then President Spencer W Kimball was very concerned about this talk, given by then Elder Benson at BYU, because it "could be misunderstood as espousing . . . an unthinking ‘follow the leader’ mentality.”

However, the talk was allowed to stand. And since it was allowed to stand, it has been repeated many times... And since it has been repeated many times, it is now considered church doctrine.

I, for one, reject the notion that the living Church President's words trump scripture. His words should be in perfect harmony with scripture. If they happen to contradict scripture at any point, then that man's words should be deeply scrutinized.

Do you believe President Kimball when he said:

“I have heard President Joseph F. Smith and all who have followed him up to now. I was thrilled at their utterances and took their warnings seriously, even as a young man. These men are among the prophets of God, just as were the prophets of the Book of Mormon and of the Bible. I do not remember ever feeling that these men pulled any punches or that their counsel went unheeded.

Various excuses have been used over the centuries to dismiss these divine messengers. There has been denial because the prophet came from an obscure place. “Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth?” (John 1:46.) Jesus was also met with the question, “Is not this the carpenter’s son?” (Matt. 13:55.) By one means or another, the swiftest method of rejection of the holy prophets has been to find a pretext, however false or absurd, to dismiss the man so that his message could also be dismissed. Prophets who were not glib, but slow of speech, were esteemed as naught. Instead of responding to Paul’s message, some saw his bodily presence as weak and regarded his speech as contemptible. Perhaps they judged Paul by the timbre of his voice or by his style of speech, not the truths uttered by him.

“I have heard President Joseph F. Smith and all who have followed him up to now. I was thrilled at their utterances and took their warnings seriously, even as a young man. These men are among the prophets of God, just as were the prophets of the Book of Mormon and of the Bible. I do not remember ever feeling that these men pulled any punches or that their counsel went unheeded.

Various excuses have been used over the centuries to dismiss these divine messengers. There has been denial because the prophet came from an obscure place. “Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth?” (John 1:46.) Jesus was also met with the question, “Is not this the carpenter’s son?” (Matt. 13:55.) By one means or another, the swiftest method of rejection of the holy prophets has been to find a pretext, however false or absurd, to dismiss the man so that his message could also be dismissed. Prophets who were not glib, but slow of speech, were esteemed as naught. Instead of responding to Paul’s message, some saw his bodily presence as weak and regarded his speech as contemptible. Perhaps they judged Paul by the timbre of his voice or by his style of speech, not the truths uttered by him.

Of course, rejection of the holy prophets comes because the hearts of people are hardened, as people are shaped by their society. Yet even when the hardening is swift, it can also be subtle.

Let us harken to those we sustain as prophets and seers, as well as the other brethren as if our eternal life depended upon it, because it does!”

You’re literally preaching to the choir. This is not news to us. Of course we harken to the prophets , but prophets do not always speak as prophets and the prophets themselves have said as much.

We literally are saying we don’t like parts of this talk because we are listening to what the Actual President(Prophet) of the Church had to say about it at that time.

You: “Stahura, listen to the Prophet”
Me: “You got it Boss”

Apostle Benson: 14 Fundamentals
Prophet Kimball: “I don’t like that talk”

Me: “I don’t like parts of that talk because Kimball didn’t either “
You: “Why don’t you believe the apostle Benson?
Me: “Because Prophet Kimball didn’t like the talk”
You: “Here is a talk about how you need to learn to hearken to the Prophet”


Like....

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 8:36 am

Stahura wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 8:30 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 8:17 am

caburnha wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 12:12 am I believe then President Spencer W Kimball was very concerned about this talk, given by then Elder Benson at BYU, because it "could be misunderstood as espousing . . . an unthinking ‘follow the leader’ mentality.”

However, the talk was allowed to stand. And since it was allowed to stand, it has been repeated many times... And since it has been repeated many times, it is now considered church doctrine.

I, for one, reject the notion that the living Church President's words trump scripture. His words should be in perfect harmony with scripture. If they happen to contradict scripture at any point, then that man's words should be deeply scrutinized.

Do you believe President Kimball when he said:

“I have heard President Joseph F. Smith and all who have followed him up to now. I was thrilled at their utterances and took their warnings seriously, even as a young man. These men are among the prophets of God, just as were the prophets of the Book of Mormon and of the Bible. I do not remember ever feeling that these men pulled any punches or that their counsel went unheeded.

Various excuses have been used over the centuries to dismiss these divine messengers. There has been denial because the prophet came from an obscure place. “Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth?” (John 1:46.) Jesus was also met with the question, “Is not this the carpenter’s son?” (Matt. 13:55.) By one means or another, the swiftest method of rejection of the holy prophets has been to find a pretext, however false or absurd, to dismiss the man so that his message could also be dismissed. Prophets who were not glib, but slow of speech, were esteemed as naught. Instead of responding to Paul’s message, some saw his bodily presence as weak and regarded his speech as contemptible. Perhaps they judged Paul by the timbre of his voice or by his style of speech, not the truths uttered by him.

“I have heard President Joseph F. Smith and all who have followed him up to now. I was thrilled at their utterances and took their warnings seriously, even as a young man. These men are among the prophets of God, just as were the prophets of the Book of Mormon and of the Bible. I do not remember ever feeling that these men pulled any punches or that their counsel went unheeded.

Various excuses have been used over the centuries to dismiss these divine messengers. There has been denial because the prophet came from an obscure place. “Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth?” (John 1:46.) Jesus was also met with the question, “Is not this the carpenter’s son?” (Matt. 13:55.) By one means or another, the swiftest method of rejection of the holy prophets has been to find a pretext, however false or absurd, to dismiss the man so that his message could also be dismissed. Prophets who were not glib, but slow of speech, were esteemed as naught. Instead of responding to Paul’s message, some saw his bodily presence as weak and regarded his speech as contemptible. Perhaps they judged Paul by the timbre of his voice or by his style of speech, not the truths uttered by him.

Of course, rejection of the holy prophets comes because the hearts of people are hardened, as people are shaped by their society. Yet even when the hardening is swift, it can also be subtle.

Let us harken to those we sustain as prophets and seers, as well as the other brethren as if our eternal life depended upon it, because it does!”

You’re literally preaching to the choir. This is not news to us. Of course we harken to the prophets , but prophets do not always speak as prophets and the prophets themselves have said as much.

We literally are saying we don’t like parts of this talk because we are listening to what the Actual President(Prophet) of the Church had to say about it at that time.

You: “Stahura, listen to the Prophet”
Me: “You got it Boss”

Apostle Benson: 14 Fundamentals
Prophet Kimball: “I don’t like that talk”

Me: “I don’t like parts of that talk because Kimball didn’t either “
You: “Why don’t you believe the apostle Benson?
Me: “Because Prophet Kimball didn’t like the talk”
You: “Here is a talk about how you need to learn to hearken to the Prophet”


Like....

Me: These guys have obviously not read or understood what President Kimball said about the talk and why he was concerned.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 11:53 pm 13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.

mes5464 wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 8:42 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 11:53 pm 13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.

How does this statement trak in light of D&C 107? They appear to be equal to me.

22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

24 And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.

25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

26 And they form a quorum, equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 8:17 am .
Let us harken to those we sustain as prophets and seers, as well as the other brethren as if our eternal life depended upon it, because it does!”

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 9:34 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 8:17 am .
Let us harken to those we sustain as prophets and seers, as well as the other brethren as if our eternal life depended upon it, because it does!”

O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name. -2 Nephi 9:41

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 9:41 am

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 9:34 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 8:17 am .
Let us harken to those we sustain as prophets and seers, as well as the other brethren as if our eternal life depended upon it, because it does!”

O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name. -2 Nephi 9:41

Yes this is a typical response to those who do not understand what these men are saying. Keep in mind prophets would be the first to quote this scripture and others like it and to declare the reality of Jesus Christ being the only way, and the keeper of the gate but they also understand something greater about the order and organization of Heaven

I imagine there may have been some when asked by a prophet to look at a serpent to live that would quote similar scripture because they were asked by a man to look to Christ who perished in their unbelief using the reasoning that Christ himself will communicate all necessary things for eternal life.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 8:17 am

caburnha wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 12:12 am I believe then President Spencer W Kimball was very concerned about this talk, given by then Elder Benson at BYU, because it "could be misunderstood as espousing . . . an unthinking ‘follow the leader’ mentality.”

However, the talk was allowed to stand. And since it was allowed to stand, it has been repeated many times... And since it has been repeated many times, it is now considered church doctrine.

I, for one, reject the notion that the living Church President's words trump scripture. His words should be in perfect harmony with scripture. If they happen to contradict scripture at any point, then that man's words should be deeply scrutinized.

Do you believe President Kimball when he said:

“I have heard President Joseph F. Smith and all who have followed him up to now. I was thrilled at their utterances and took their warnings seriously, even as a young man. These men are among the prophets of God, just as were the prophets of the Book of Mormon and of the Bible. I do not remember ever feeling that these men pulled any punches or that their counsel went unheeded.

Various excuses have been used over the centuries to dismiss these divine messengers. There has been denial because the prophet came from an obscure place. “Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth?” (John 1:46.) Jesus was also met with the question, “Is not this the carpenter’s son?” (Matt. 13:55.) By one means or another, the swiftest method of rejection of the holy prophets has been to find a pretext, however false or absurd, to dismiss the man so that his message could also be dismissed. Prophets who were not glib, but slow of speech, were esteemed as naught. Instead of responding to Paul’s message, some saw his bodily presence as weak and regarded his speech as contemptible. Perhaps they judged Paul by the timbre of his voice or by his style of speech, not the truths uttered by him.

“I have heard President Joseph F. Smith and all who have followed him up to now. I was thrilled at their utterances and took their warnings seriously, even as a young man. These men are among the prophets of God, just as were the prophets of the Book of Mormon and of the Bible. I do not remember ever feeling that these men pulled any punches or that their counsel went unheeded.

Various excuses have been used over the centuries to dismiss these divine messengers. There has been denial because the prophet came from an obscure place. “Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth?” (John 1:46.) Jesus was also met with the question, “Is not this the carpenter’s son?” (Matt. 13:55.) By one means or another, the swiftest method of rejection of the holy prophets has been to find a pretext, however false or absurd, to dismiss the man so that his message could also be dismissed. Prophets who were not glib, but slow of speech, were esteemed as naught. Instead of responding to Paul’s message, some saw his bodily presence as weak and regarded his speech as contemptible. Perhaps they judged Paul by the timbre of his voice or by his style of speech, not the truths uttered by him.

Of course, rejection of the holy prophets comes because the hearts of people are hardened, as people are shaped by their society. Yet even when the hardening is swift, it can also be subtle.

Let us harken to those we sustain as prophets and seers, as well as the other brethren as if our eternal life depended upon it, because it does!”

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 9:34 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 8:17 am .
Let us harken to those we sustain as prophets and seers, as well as the other brethren as if our eternal life depended upon it, because it does!”

O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name. -2 Nephi 9:41

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 9:13 am

mes5464 wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 8:42 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 11:53 pm 13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.

How does this statement trak in light of D&C 107? They appear to be equal to me.

22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

24 And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.

25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

26 And they form a quorum, equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named.

D&C 112:20 ​Whosoever ​​​receiveth​ my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my name’s sake unto you.

D&C 107:78 Again, verily, I say unto you, the most important business of the church, and the most difficult cases of the church, inasmuch as there is not satisfaction upon the decision of the bishop or judges, it shall be handed over and carried up unto the council of the church, before the Presidency of the High Priesthood.
79 And the Presidency of the council of the High Priesthood shall have power to call other high priests, even twelve, to assist as counselors; and thus the Presidency of the High Priesthood and its counselors shall have power to decide upon testimony according to the laws of the church.
80 And after this decision it shall be had in remembrance no more before the Lord; for this is the highest council of the church of God, and a final decision upon controversies in spiritual matters.

ajax wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 10:18 am Everyone is allowed a deviation. Benson was wrong here. Doesn't mean he was a bad guy. He certainly wasn't. But his opinion here, was certainly just that. The real question is, are you able to discern it?

Ironically, Benson also taught this:
"Not only are there apostates within our midst, but there are also apostate doctrines that are sometimes taught in our classes and from our pulpits and that appear in our publications. And these apostate precepts of men cause our people to stumble."

He may have been including himself in that. Can we allow these men to speak as men sometimes, and not always having to put the burden on them that everything that comes out of their mouths is true? Again, the real question is, can YOU discern?

Or do you force yourself into the impossible situation of reconciling every word that proceeds forth from these men over all time. Good luck.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 11:53 pm People love President Benson because of his commentary on the gadianton robbers in our government, his conspiracy facts in the Book of Mormon, his talk on pride, and his calling out the church for still being under condemnation for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.

I’m wondering if you also believe President Benson when he said the following:

In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency--the living prophet and the First Presidency--follow them and be blessed--reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain--how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed--the living Prophet--President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

May God bless us all to look to the Prophet and the Presidency in the critical and crucial days ahead is my prayer.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 10:14 am

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 9:34 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 8:17 am .
Let us harken to those we sustain as prophets and seers, as well as the other brethren as if our eternal life depended upon it, because it does!”

O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name. -2 Nephi 9:41

Ironically the scripture quoted above came as a result of a man “following” another man who was not Christ.

I think we are all grateful Joseph Smith believed and “followed” a man other than Christ so that the world could be gathered to Christ using the Book of Mormon.

Do we see a pattern here? Do we see how following a man other than Christ does not substitute the reality that he is the way and the keeper of the gate? Do we see how we are blessed many times when we choose to follow someone sent by Christ instead of waiting for Christ himself to tell us all things personally? Do we see how this can lead many to eternal life?

caburnha wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 11:00 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 10:14 am

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 9:34 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 8:17 am .
Let us harken to those we sustain as prophets and seers, as well as the other brethren as if our eternal life depended upon it, because it does!”

O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name. -2 Nephi 9:41

Ironically the scripture quoted above came as a result of a man “following” another man who was not Christ.

I think we are all grateful Joseph Smith believed and “followed” a man other than Christ so that the world could be gathered to Christ using the Book of Mormon.

Do we see a pattern here? Do we see how following a man other than Christ does not substitute the reality that he is the way and the keeper of the gate? Do we see how we are blessed many times when we choose to follow someone sent by Christ instead of waiting for Christ himself to tell us all things personally? Do we see how this can lead many to eternal life?

I see a pattern. ALL THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES!!! A prophet preaches repentance by the power of the Holy Ghost. This preaching has a more powerful effect on many people than any weapon of war. Their hearts are pricked by the teaching of Christ, which leads them to sore repentance. Their faith, administered to their hearts by a sent messenger, leads them to desire to covenant with God. They call on Jesus in mighty prayer and submit fully to Him, as a little child, with a completely broken heart and contrite spirit. Jesus then remits their sins which effects a mighty change in their hearts, a baptism of fire, so mighty that angels are seen, visions are seen, prophesies are made, the voice of the Lord is heard, prisons are broken, etc... Whole peoples are then converted by the power of these evidences seen in their brethren....

These are the fruits of following prophets in scriptures. We have now been following prophets for 180 years. And???

Now.... Here's the big question.... Assuming we have the fullness of the Gospel, and prophets as mighty as Nephi, Alma, Moroni, etc... Where are these fruits today? Where are the King Benjamin type events? The Anti-Nephi-Lehi events? Where are the visions? The healing of the dead? The gifts of tongues? The angels? What did Moroni say if these things were to cease?

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 11:17 am

caburnha wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 11:00 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 10:14 am

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 9:34 am



O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name. -2 Nephi 9:41

Ironically the scripture quoted above came as a result of a man “following” another man who was not Christ.

I think we are all grateful Joseph Smith believed and “followed” a man other than Christ so that the world could be gathered to Christ using the Book of Mormon.

Do we see a pattern here? Do we see how following a man other than Christ does not substitute the reality that he is the way and the keeper of the gate? Do we see how we are blessed many times when we choose to follow someone sent by Christ instead of waiting for Christ himself to tell us all things personally? Do we see how this can lead many to eternal life?

I see a pattern. ALL THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES!!! A prophet preaches repentance by the power of the Holy Ghost. This preaching has a more powerful effect on many people than any weapon of war. Their hearts are pricked by the teaching of Christ, which leads them to sore repentance. Their faith, administered to their hearts by a sent messenger, leads them to desire to covenant with God. They call on Jesus in mighty prayer and submit fully to Him, as a little child, with a completely broken heart and contrite spirit. Jesus then remits their sins which effects a mighty change in their hearts, a baptism of fire, so mighty that angels are seen, visions are seen, prophesies are made, the voice of the Lord is heard, prisons are broken, etc... Whole peoples are then converted by the power of these evidences seen in their brethren....

These are the fruits of following prophets in scriptures. We have now been following prophets for 180 years. And???

Now.... Here's the big question.... Assuming we have the fullness of the Gospel, and prophets as mighty as Nephi, Alma, Moroni, etc... Where are these fruits today? Where are the King Benjamin type events? The Anti-Nephi-Lehi events? Where are the visions? The healing of the dead? The gifts of tongues? The angels? What did Moroni say if these things were to cease?

He said it is because of unbelief the question is whose as there is no lack of miracles happening all over the world in the church.