Do you believe President Benson

[Hosh]

Okay then. Great discussion. Seems you share the same technique as many others here. You say someones position is false and give no scriptural basis for it.

[lundbaek]

I have finally gotten around to reviewing the “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet” posted by DRTanner and believe they are all true when the Prophet is speaking as the Prophet, which I think is the case when he is speaking in a Church General Conference, or when authorizing a "Message of the First Presidency, and in certain other situations. I have heard and read of statements seemingly prophetic that certain prophets spoke in private conversation, which I don't take as necessarily true or accurate.

[lundbaek]

In connection with my immediately above post, I recall earlier in this decade discussing on LDSFF a statement that then Senator Harry Reid made to members of the media that Ezra Taft Benson had led people "down the wrong path" with some of his statements on political issues. I cannot quickly find those discussions now. Other members I have heard say that President Benson was demented when he said certain things, even while President of the Church.

[davedan]

I believe then President Spencer W Kimball was very concerned about this talk, given by then Elder Benson at BYU, because it "could be misunderstood as espousing . . . an unthinking ‘follow the leader’ mentality.”

No one is saying that following the prophet doesn't require thinking. FYI, the "no thinking" comment refers to a random comment made in the Improvement Era in 1945. The mis- statement got some attention at the time. Pres. George A Smith. wrote a personal response and clarification for one concerned individual on this very statement.

https://www.fairmormon.org/archive/publ ... nking-done

[Zathura]

Caburnha’s “newest” post is old news and same view shared by many here who think the church is in apostasy in large thanks to Avraham Gileadi who has perpetuated those views. There is no spiritual basis in the claims and Avraham Gileadi is no prophet.

Funny thing is people come to these conclusions because they see no revelations/manifestations of the Spirit of God/fruit that we should be expecting.They see these things on their own.

Most people I've talked to about these things have never and will never hear about DS and Avraham and John Dehlin. Seriously.
Using DS and Avraham and other people as a scapegoat for the real problem isn't going to help the church.

Let's ask Bruce R. McConkie what he has to say about the importance of miracles and spiritual gifts.

"Miracles wrought by the power of God are the perfect proof of pure religion. They are always;without fail, found in the true Church. Their absence is conclusive, absolute, and irrefutable proof of apostasy" McConkie, Bruce R. Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 2, pp. 374-75. Salt Lake City, 1970.


I've literally never made the argument that the Church is in a state of apostasy, but by an LDS Apostles own standards you could make that very argument.
There are no curing of the blind and the deaf. Priesthood blessings don't do what the scriptures say they should do, there are no gift of tongues(No, missionaries learning spanish a couple weeks faster than the average person isn't the gift of tongues) there are no miraculous outpourings of the Holy Spirit like what happened at Acts 2 and in Kirtland. These miracles have essentially ceased. Unbelief has stifled the gifts of the Holy Ghost.

How long will we pretend these things happen but we just don't hear about it because "Pearls before swine?"

Until you face the problem head on and admit it exists, things will never improve.

Stop getting offended(Not you specifically) when things like this are said. The criticism is not leveled at Thomas S Monson and the "Lord's anointed", it's leveled at every part of this church. From the average member to the guy teaching Elders Quorum to the people teaching false traditions to children after they exit the baptismal font to Bishops to Stake Presidents to GA's. We are all people, we are all a part of the church and over the course of decades we all contributed to our sad state.

[drtanner]

Okay then. Great discussion. Seems you share the same technique as many others here. You say someones position is false and give no scriptural basis for it.

Pick any thread on the topic of Isaiah, the gentiles, and the modern day church to see the discussion unfold. It will never be resolved because it is a circular discussion based on two different interpretations and why it must be resolved with God directly. It is so overwhelmingly evident as we do our best to partner with the lord in helping his church accomplish these things the prophets are inviting us to be a part of.

[cab]

Okay then. Great discussion. Seems you share the same technique as many others here. You say someones position is false and give no scriptural basis for it.

Pick any thread on the topic of Isaiah, the gentiles, and the modern day church to see the discussion unfold. It will never be resolved because it is a circular discussion based on two different interpretations and why it must be resolved with God directly. In this case by following and sustaining the prophet with real intent and full purpose of heart and observing the outcome. I have done that, the fruits are there, the witness is there, conversion is there, and the spirit is there. It is so overwhelmingly evident as we do our best to partner with the lord in helping his church accomplish these things the prophets are inviting us to be a part of.

You are right. It is a circular discussion and both "sides" have their views that fully love the restoration and the Lord. Both can be supported by scriptures and the teachings of Joseph Smith. That was my point, to try and show this. The only difference is the latter group used to subscribe to the views of the former group, and understands how the former group is thinking... So I can see why this frustrates people like you greatly, who view this as a giant hindrance....

[drtanner]

Okay then. Great discussion. Seems you share the same technique as many others here. You say someones position is false and give no scriptural basis for it.

Pick any thread on the topic of Isaiah, the gentiles, and the modern day church to see the discussion unfold. It will never be resolved because it is a circular discussion based on two different interpretations and why it must be resolved with God directly. In this case by following and sustaining the prophet with real intent and full purpose of heart and observing the outcome. I have done that, the fruits are there, the witness is there, conversion is there, and the spirit is there. It is so overwhelmingly evident as we do our best to partner with the lord in helping his church accomplish these things the prophets are inviting us to be a part of.

You are right. It is a circular discussion and both "sides" have there views that fully love the restoration and the Lord. Both can be supported by scriptures and the teachings of Joseph Smith. That was my point, to try and show this. The only difference is the latter group used to subscribe to the views of the former group, and understands how the former group is thinking... So I can see why this frustrates people like you greatly, who view this as a giant hindrance....

There is zero frustration, and no hindrance. The truth cuts it’s own way as it has always done since the church has been restored.

[Zathura]

Pick any thread on the topic of Isaiah, the gentiles, and the modern day church to see the discussion unfold. It will never be resolved because it is a circular discussion based on two different interpretations and why it must be resolved with God directly. In this case by following and sustaining the prophet with real intent and full purpose of heart and observing the outcome. I have done that, the fruits are there, the witness is there, conversion is there, and the spirit is there. It is so overwhelmingly evident as we do our best to partner with the lord in helping his church accomplish these things the prophets are inviting us to be a part of.

Your testimony here is essentially mine with just a couple tweaks.

It will never be resolved because it is a circular discussion based on two different interpretations and why it must be resolved with God directly....By following and sustaining the prophet Christ with real intent and full purpose of heart and observing the outcome. I have done that, the fruits are there, the witness is there, conversion is there, and the spirit is there. It is so overwhelmingly evident as we do our best to partner with the lord the prophets in helping his(The Lord's) church accomplish these things the prophetsthe Lord is inviting us to be a part of.

The funny thing about our minds is that tiny details reveals a lot about the subconscious of a person and a group of people.
Whether you realize it or not, the details of your repeated posts here paints a diagram like this:

You -----> Prophet -----> Lord


No matter how spiritual , Christ loving, Christian, enlightened a person is(I believe you to be all of those things), I wholeheartedly believe that such a soul will become ever closer to Jesus Christ and become even more enlightened by relearning(training your subconscious) their relationship between Man, God, and Prophets to look like this:

You -------------> Lord
Prophet ------> Lord

**** This is not only specifically about you, it's about a mindset repeated here, you just happened to initiate this conversation ****

[righteousrepublic]

I believe then President Spencer W Kimball was very concerned about this talk, given by then Elder Benson at BYU, because it "could be misunderstood as espousing . . . an unthinking ‘follow the leader’ mentality.”

However, the talk was allowed to stand. And since it was allowed to stand, it has been repeated many times... And since it has been repeated many times, it is now considered church doctrine.

I, for one, reject the notion that the living Church President's words trump scripture. His words should be in perfect harmony with scripture. If they happen to contradict scripture at any point, then that man's words should be deeply scrutinized.

Doctrine and Covenants 56:4
4 Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all this to be answered upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord.

Amos 3:7
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing,abut he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

And this is, does and can be done by our living prophets yesterday, today and in the future.

[drtanner]

Pick any thread on the topic of Isaiah, the gentiles, and the modern day church to see the discussion unfold. It will never be resolved because it is a circular discussion based on two different interpretations and why it must be resolved with God directly. In this case by following and sustaining the prophet with real intent and full purpose of heart and observing the outcome. I have done that, the fruits are there, the witness is there, conversion is there, and the spirit is there. It is so overwhelmingly evident as we do our best to partner with the lord in helping his church accomplish these things the prophets are inviting us to be a part of.

Your testimony here is essentially mine with just a couple tweaks.

It will never be resolved because it is a circular discussion based on two different interpretations and why it must be resolved with God directly....By following and sustaining the prophet Christ with real intent and full purpose of heart and observing the outcome. I have done that, the fruits are there, the witness is there, conversion is there, and the spirit is there. It is so overwhelmingly evident as we do our best to partner with the lord the prophets in helping his(The Lord's) church accomplish these things the prophetsthe Lord is inviting us to be a part of.

The funny thing about our minds is that tiny details reveals a lot about the subconscious of a person and a group of people.
Whether you realize it or not, the details of your repeated posts here paints a diagram like this:

You -----> Prophet -----> Lord


No matter how spiritual , Christ loving, Christian, enlightened a person is(I believe you to be all of those things), I wholeheartedly believe that such a soul will become ever closer to Jesus Christ and become even more enlightened by relearning their relationship between Man, God, and Prophets to look like this:

You -------------> Lord
Prophet ------> Lord

You really have no idea what I’m saying here.

[Zathura]

You really have no idea what I’m saying here.

I don't think you really understand what you're saying. You think you're saying something, when you're really broadcasting an entirely different message.

[drtanner]

You really have no idea what I’m saying here.

I don't think you really understand what you're saying. You think you're saying something, when you're really broadcasting an entirely different message.

Do you think president bensons intention in giving this talk was to have people follow him over the lord? Or in place of the lord, or have a testimony of him and a relationship with him and not the lord?


If not what was his in intention of giving the talk in terms of individuals relationship with the Lord? How does the 14 points relate to the lord? How does it relate to the gathering? How doesn’t it relate to zion?

[cab]

Okay then. Great discussion. Seems you share the same technique as many others here. You say someones position is false and give no scriptural basis for it.

Pick any thread on the topic of Isaiah, the gentiles, and the modern day church to see the discussion unfold. It will never be resolved because it is a circular discussion based on two different interpretations and why it must be resolved with God directly. In this case by following and sustaining the prophet with real intent and full purpose of heart and observing the outcome. I have done that, the fruits are there, the witness is there, conversion is there, and the spirit is there. It is so overwhelmingly evident as we do our best to partner with the lord in helping his church accomplish these things the prophets are inviting us to be a part of.

You are right. It is a circular discussion and both "sides" have there views that fully love the restoration and the Lord. Both can be supported by scriptures and the teachings of Joseph Smith. That was my point, to try and show this. The only difference is the latter group used to subscribe to the views of the former group, and understands how the former group is thinking... So I can see why this frustrates people like you greatly, who view this as a giant hindrance....

There is zero frustration, and no hindrance. The truth cuts it’s own way as it has always done since the church has been restored.

I feel the same way. Mormonism is the pursuit of truth.

[cab]

Pick any thread on the topic of Isaiah, the gentiles, and the modern day church to see the discussion unfold. It will never be resolved because it is a circular discussion based on two different interpretations and why it must be resolved with God directly. In this case by following and sustaining the prophet with real intent and full purpose of heart and observing the outcome. I have done that, the fruits are there, the witness is there, conversion is there, and the spirit is there. It is so overwhelmingly evident as we do our best to partner with the lord in helping his church accomplish these things the prophets are inviting us to be a part of.

Your testimony here is essentially mine with just a couple tweaks.

It will never be resolved because it is a circular discussion based on two different interpretations and why it must be resolved with God directly....By following and sustaining the prophet Christ with real intent and full purpose of heart and observing the outcome. I have done that, the fruits are there, the witness is there, conversion is there, and the spirit is there. It is so overwhelmingly evident as we do our best to partner with the lord the prophets in helping his(The Lord's) church accomplish these things the prophetsthe Lord is inviting us to be a part of.

The funny thing about our minds is that tiny details reveals a lot about the subconscious of a person and a group of people.
Whether you realize it or not, the details of your repeated posts here paints a diagram like this:

You -----> Prophet -----> Lord


No matter how spiritual , Christ loving, Christian, enlightened a person is(I believe you to be all of those things), I wholeheartedly believe that such a soul will become ever closer to Jesus Christ and become even more enlightened by relearning(training your subconscious) their relationship between Man, God, and Prophets to look like this:

You -------------> Lord
Prophet ------> Lord

**** This is not only specifically about you, it's about a mindset repeated here, you just happened to initiate this conversation ****

I'd say this is a spot on assessment

[Zathura]

You really have no idea what I’m saying here.

I don't think you really understand what you're saying. You think you're saying something, when you're really broadcasting an entirely different message.

Do you think president bensons intention in giving this talk was to have people follow him over the lord? Or in place of the lord, or have a testimony of him and a relationship with him and not the lord?


If not what was his in intention of giving the talk in terms of individuals relationship with the Lord? How does the 14 points relate to the lord? How does it relate to the gathering? How doesn’t it relate to zion?

These questions show perfectly what you and many others are incorrectly assuming.

I personally, and many others, do not and have not ever thought that these leaders had any intentions other than good intentions. Their intent is precisely why we still love them and sustain them. There are people like DS followers who think otherwise, but they are a minority.

Regardless of their intent, the result of talks like this has been a culture and tradition that takes follow the prophet too far, thus justifying Spencer W Kimballs concern.

It doesn’t relate to Zion because the key to Zion is having an entire people with pure hearts , which comes from being sanctified from the Holy Ghost and pushing onward(The Doctrine of Christ) . I can promise you that in all my time in the church I have to hear some mention of following the prophet AT LEAST 10 times for everyone one time the Doctrine of Christ is mentioned. AT LEAST. This had negative consequences in my life and in the lives of countless individuals throughout my life that I love. Had they been properly taught the Doctrine of Christ 10 times more than follow the prophet instead of the reverse they would be in a much better place, AND SO WOULD THE CHURCH.

Again, this from Benson I wholeheartedly sustain 100%

Would not the progress of the Church increase dramatically today with an increasing number of those who are spiritually reborn? Can you imagine what would happen in our homes? Can you imagine what would happen with an increasing number of copies of the Book of Mormon in the hands of an increasing number of missionaries who know how to use it and who have been born of God? When this happens, we will get the harvest President Kimball envisions. It was the “born of God” Alma who as a missionary was so able to impart the word that many others were also born of God.

Oh and ironically(or coincidentally) In this talk he shares a dream David O Mckay had about Zion. What did his dream say? That those who enter are those who have been Born Again, what a perfect tie in to your question about Zion.


What’s the ratio between those two types of phrases in the Book of Mormon? There literally isn’t a ratio because Prophets teaching follow the prophet isn’t found anywhere in the Book. The Doctrine of Christ is all over the place. You can’t go through any book within without encountering references to the mighty change of heart, the spirit wrought upon so and so, the spirit fell upon so and so etc.

[drtanner]

You really have no idea what I’m saying here.

I don't think you really understand what you're saying. You think you're saying something, when you're really broadcasting an entirely different message.

Do you think president bensons intention in giving this talk was to have people follow him over the lord? Or in place of the lord, or have a testimony of him and a relationship with him and not the lord?


If not what was his in intention of giving the talk in terms of individuals relationship with the Lord? How does the 14 points relate to the lord? How does it relate to the gathering? How doesn’t it relate to zion?

These questions show perfectly what you and many others are incorrectly assuming.

I personally, and many others, do not and have not ever thought that these leaders had any intentions other than good intentions. Their intent is precisely why we still love them and sustain them. There are people like DS followers who think otherwise, but they are a minority.

Regardless of their intent, the result of talks like this has been a culture and tradition that takes follow the prophet too far, thus justifying Spencer W Kimballs concern.

It doesn’t relate to Zion because the key to Zion is having an entire people with pure hearts , which comes from being sanctified from the Holy Ghost and pushing onward(The Doctrine of Christ) . I can promise you that in all my time in the church I have to hear some mention of following the prophet AT LEAST 10 times for everyone one time the Doctrine of Christ is mentioned. AT LEAST. This had negative consequences in my life and in the lives of countless individuals throughout my life that I love. Had they been properly taught the Doctrine of Christ 10 times more than follow the prophet instead of the reverse they would be in a much better place, AND SO WOULD THE CHURCH.

Again, this from Benson I wholeheartedly sustain 100%

Would not the progress of the Church increase dramatically today with an increasing number of those who are spiritually reborn? Can you imagine what would happen in our homes? Can you imagine what would happen with an increasing number of copies of the Book of Mormon in the hands of an increasing number of missionaries who know how to use it and who have been born of God? When this happens, we will get the harvest President Kimball envisions. It was the “born of God” Alma who as a missionary was so able to impart the word that many others were also born of God.

Oh and ironically(or coincidentally) In this talk he shares a dream David O Mckay had about Zion. What did his dream say? That those who enter are those who have been Born Again, what a perfect tie in to your question about Zion.


What’s the ratio between those two types of phrases in the Book of Mormon? There literally isn’t a ratio because Prophets teaching follow the prophet isn’t found anywhere in the Book. The Doctrine of Christ is all over the place. You can’t go through any book within without encountering references to the mighty change of heart, the spirit wrought upon so and so, the spirit fell upon so and so etc.

If the entire church was born of god, would there be a need for a prophet? If not why? If yes why?

[cab]

I don't think you really understand what you're saying. You think you're saying something, when you're really broadcasting an entirely different message.

Do you think president bensons intention in giving this talk was to have people follow him over the lord? Or in place of the lord, or have a testimony of him and a relationship with him and not the lord?


If not what was his in intention of giving the talk in terms of individuals relationship with the Lord? How does the 14 points relate to the lord? How does it relate to the gathering? How doesn’t it relate to zion?

These questions show perfectly what you and many others are incorrectly assuming.

I personally, and many others, do not and have not ever thought that these leaders had any intentions other than good intentions. Their intent is precisely why we still love them and sustain them. There are people like DS followers who think otherwise, but they are a minority.

Regardless of their intent, the result of talks like this has been a culture and tradition that takes follow the prophet too far, thus justifying Spencer W Kimballs concern.

It doesn’t relate to Zion because the key to Zion is having an entire people with pure hearts , which comes from being sanctified from the Holy Ghost and pushing onward(The Doctrine of Christ) . I can promise you that in all my time in the church I have to hear some mention of following the prophet AT LEAST 10 times for everyone one time the Doctrine of Christ is mentioned. AT LEAST. This had negative consequences in my life and in the lives of countless individuals throughout my life that I love. Had they been properly taught the Doctrine of Christ 10 times more than follow the prophet instead of the reverse they would be in a much better place, AND SO WOULD THE CHURCH.

Again, this from Benson I wholeheartedly sustain 100%

Would not the progress of the Church increase dramatically today with an increasing number of those who are spiritually reborn? Can you imagine what would happen in our homes? Can you imagine what would happen with an increasing number of copies of the Book of Mormon in the hands of an increasing number of missionaries who know how to use it and who have been born of God? When this happens, we will get the harvest President Kimball envisions. It was the “born of God” Alma who as a missionary was so able to impart the word that many others were also born of God.

Oh and ironically(or coincidentally) In this talk he shares a dream David O Mckay had about Zion. What did his dream say? That those who enter are those who have been Born Again, what a perfect tie in to your question about Zion.


What’s the ratio between those two types of phrases in the Book of Mormon? There literally isn’t a ratio because Prophets teaching follow the prophet isn’t found anywhere in the Book. The Doctrine of Christ is all over the place. You can’t go through any book within without encountering references to the mighty change of heart, the spirit wrought upon so and so, the spirit fell upon so and so etc.

If the entire church was born of god, would there be a need for a prophet? If not why? If yes why?

As long as the notion of following the prophet supercedes (in our minds and actions) our willingness to come to Christ (discovering the desperate need to seek, submit to, and follow Him), our minds will continue to be darkened and we will never be born again - neither collectively nor individually.

Sent messengers (ordinances too) simply point the way to Christ. They effect change in the hearts of man, turning them to Christ, through the power of the Holy Ghost. As soon as the messenger (or ordinance) becomes the focus, the message is lost.

The propensity for God's people to idolize their leaders is why Paul thanked God he hadn't baptized any of the Corinthians... Its also the reason you won't find a discourse on "following the prophet" in the scriptures.

[endlessQuestions]

Do you think president bensons intention in giving this talk was to have people follow him over the lord? Or in place of the lord, or have a testimony of him and a relationship with him and not the lord?


If not what was his in intention of giving the talk in terms of individuals relationship with the Lord? How does the 14 points relate to the lord? How does it relate to the gathering? How doesn’t it relate to zion?

These questions show perfectly what you and many others are incorrectly assuming.

I personally, and many others, do not and have not ever thought that these leaders had any intentions other than good intentions. Their intent is precisely why we still love them and sustain them. There are people like DS followers who think otherwise, but they are a minority.

Regardless of their intent, the result of talks like this has been a culture and tradition that takes follow the prophet too far, thus justifying Spencer W Kimballs concern.

It doesn’t relate to Zion because the key to Zion is having an entire people with pure hearts , which comes from being sanctified from the Holy Ghost and pushing onward(The Doctrine of Christ) . I can promise you that in all my time in the church I have to hear some mention of following the prophet AT LEAST 10 times for everyone one time the Doctrine of Christ is mentioned. AT LEAST. This had negative consequences in my life and in the lives of countless individuals throughout my life that I love. Had they been properly taught the Doctrine of Christ 10 times more than follow the prophet instead of the reverse they would be in a much better place, AND SO WOULD THE CHURCH.

Again, this from Benson I wholeheartedly sustain 100%

Would not the progress of the Church increase dramatically today with an increasing number of those who are spiritually reborn? Can you imagine what would happen in our homes? Can you imagine what would happen with an increasing number of copies of the Book of Mormon in the hands of an increasing number of missionaries who know how to use it and who have been born of God? When this happens, we will get the harvest President Kimball envisions. It was the “born of God” Alma who as a missionary was so able to impart the word that many others were also born of God.

Oh and ironically(or coincidentally) In this talk he shares a dream David O Mckay had about Zion. What did his dream say? That those who enter are those who have been Born Again, what a perfect tie in to your question about Zion.


What’s the ratio between those two types of phrases in the Book of Mormon? There literally isn’t a ratio because Prophets teaching follow the prophet isn’t found anywhere in the Book. The Doctrine of Christ is all over the place. You can’t go through any book within without encountering references to the mighty change of heart, the spirit wrought upon so and so, the spirit fell upon so and so etc.

If the entire church was born of god, would there be a need for a prophet? If not why? If yes why?

As long as the notion of following the prophet supercedes (in our minds and actions) our willingness to come to Christ (discovering the desperate need to seek, submit to, and follow Him), our minds will continue to be darkened and we will never be born again - neither collectively nor individually.

Sent messengers (ordinances too) simply point the way to Christ. They effect change in the hearts of man, turning them to Christ, through the power of the Holy Ghost. As soon as the messenger (or ordinance) becomes the focus, the message is lost.

The propensity for God's people to idolize their leaders is why Paul thanked God he hadn't baptized any of the Corinthians... Its also the reason you won't find a discourse on "following the prophet" in the scriptures.

Maybe not a discourse per se, but if the Israelites hadn't followed Moses they would have remained in bondage - he was a prophet. If Lehi's family hasn't followed him, they would have been destroyed or taken captive - he was a prophet. Christ, the greatest prophet of all, said "Come, follow me". I'm sure there are multiple other examples - these just popped into my head when I read your comment.

[cab]

These questions show perfectly what you and many others are incorrectly assuming.

I personally, and many others, do not and have not ever thought that these leaders had any intentions other than good intentions. Their intent is precisely why we still love them and sustain them. There are people like DS followers who think otherwise, but they are a minority.

Regardless of their intent, the result of talks like this has been a culture and tradition that takes follow the prophet too far, thus justifying Spencer W Kimballs concern.

It doesn’t relate to Zion because the key to Zion is having an entire people with pure hearts , which comes from being sanctified from the Holy Ghost and pushing onward(The Doctrine of Christ) . I can promise you that in all my time in the church I have to hear some mention of following the prophet AT LEAST 10 times for everyone one time the Doctrine of Christ is mentioned. AT LEAST. This had negative consequences in my life and in the lives of countless individuals throughout my life that I love. Had they been properly taught the Doctrine of Christ 10 times more than follow the prophet instead of the reverse they would be in a much better place, AND SO WOULD THE CHURCH.

Again, this from Benson I wholeheartedly sustain 100%

Would not the progress of the Church increase dramatically today with an increasing number of those who are spiritually reborn? Can you imagine what would happen in our homes? Can you imagine what would happen with an increasing number of copies of the Book of Mormon in the hands of an increasing number of missionaries who know how to use it and who have been born of God? When this happens, we will get the harvest President Kimball envisions. It was the “born of God” Alma who as a missionary was so able to impart the word that many others were also born of God.

Oh and ironically(or coincidentally) In this talk he shares a dream David O Mckay had about Zion. What did his dream say? That those who enter are those who have been Born Again, what a perfect tie in to your question about Zion.


What’s the ratio between those two types of phrases in the Book of Mormon? There literally isn’t a ratio because Prophets teaching follow the prophet isn’t found anywhere in the Book. The Doctrine of Christ is all over the place. You can’t go through any book within without encountering references to the mighty change of heart, the spirit wrought upon so and so, the spirit fell upon so and so etc.

If the entire church was born of god, would there be a need for a prophet? If not why? If yes why?

As long as the notion of following the prophet supercedes (in our minds and actions) our willingness to come to Christ (discovering the desperate need to seek, submit to, and follow Him), our minds will continue to be darkened and we will never be born again - neither collectively nor individually.

Sent messengers (ordinances too) simply point the way to Christ. They effect change in the hearts of man, turning them to Christ, through the power of the Holy Ghost. As soon as the messenger (or ordinance) becomes the focus, the message is lost.

The propensity for God's people to idolize their leaders is why Paul thanked God he hadn't baptized any of the Corinthians... Its also the reason you won't find a discourse on "following the prophet" in the scriptures.

Maybe not a discourse per se, but if the Israelites hadn't followed Moses they would have remained in bondage - he was a prophet. If Lehi's family hasn't followed him, they would have been destroyed or taken captive - he was a prophet. Christ, the greatest prophet of all, said "Come, follow me". I'm sure there are multiple other examples - these just popped into my head when I read your comment.

Just tell me this - did you even attempt to consider the truth of anything I said, or did you jump straight to seeking for a rebuttal?

[endlessQuestions]

If the entire church was born of god, would there be a need for a prophet? If not why? If yes why?

As long as the notion of following the prophet supercedes (in our minds and actions) our willingness to come to Christ (discovering the desperate need to seek, submit to, and follow Him), our minds will continue to be darkened and we will never be born again - neither collectively nor individually.

Sent messengers (ordinances too) simply point the way to Christ. They effect change in the hearts of man, turning them to Christ, through the power of the Holy Ghost. As soon as the messenger (or ordinance) becomes the focus, the message is lost.

The propensity for God's people to idolize their leaders is why Paul thanked God he hadn't baptized any of the Corinthians... Its also the reason you won't find a discourse on "following the prophet" in the scriptures.

Maybe not a discourse per se, but if the Israelites hadn't followed Moses they would have remained in bondage - he was a prophet. If Lehi's family hasn't followed him, they would have been destroyed or taken captive - he was a prophet. Christ, the greatest prophet of all, said "Come, follow me". I'm sure there are multiple other examples - these just popped into my head when I read your comment.

Just tell me this - did you even attempt to consider the truth of anything I said, or did you jump straight to seeking for a rebuttal?

No, you tell me this: does my argument nullify your assertion, or not?

[Hosh]

As long as the notion of following the prophet supercedes (in our minds and actions) our willingness to come to Christ (discovering the desperate need to seek, submit to, and follow Him), our minds will continue to be darkened and we will never be born again - neither collectively nor individually.

Sent messengers (ordinances too) simply point the way to Christ. They effect change in the hearts of man, turning them to Christ, through the power of the Holy Ghost. As soon as the messenger (or ordinance) becomes the focus, the message is lost.

The propensity for God's people to idolize their leaders is why Paul thanked God he hadn't baptized any of the Corinthians... Its also the reason you won't find a discourse on "following the prophet" in the scriptures.

Maybe not a discourse per se, but if the Israelites hadn't followed Moses they would have remained in bondage - he was a prophet. If Lehi's family hasn't followed him, they would have been destroyed or taken captive - he was a prophet. Christ, the greatest prophet of all, said "Come, follow me". I'm sure there are multiple other examples - these just popped into my head when I read your comment.

Just tell me this - did you even attempt to consider the truth of anything I said, or did you jump straight to seeking for a rebuttal?

No, you tell me this: does my argument nullify your assertion, or not?

No it does not. If you would just read the rest of the thread you would know where we stand on this issue. Obviously God calls prophets and they have been, and always will be, a crucial ingredient in his plans for the salvation of souls. That is not the argument here. How many times does this need to be repeated? Please consider the whole message instead of taking phrases out of context.

[cab]

As long as the notion of following the prophet supercedes (in our minds and actions) our willingness to come to Christ (discovering the desperate need to seek, submit to, and follow Him), our minds will continue to be darkened and we will never be born again - neither collectively nor individually.

Sent messengers (ordinances too) simply point the way to Christ. They effect change in the hearts of man, turning them to Christ, through the power of the Holy Ghost. As soon as the messenger (or ordinance) becomes the focus, the message is lost.

The propensity for God's people to idolize their leaders is why Paul thanked God he hadn't baptized any of the Corinthians... Its also the reason you won't find a discourse on "following the prophet" in the scriptures.

Maybe not a discourse per se, but if the Israelites hadn't followed Moses they would have remained in bondage - he was a prophet. If Lehi's family hasn't followed him, they would have been destroyed or taken captive - he was a prophet. Christ, the greatest prophet of all, said "Come, follow me". I'm sure there are multiple other examples - these just popped into my head when I read your comment.

Just tell me this - did you even attempt to consider the truth of anything I said, or did you jump straight to seeking for a rebuttal?

No, you tell me this: does my argument nullify your assertion, or not?

ok

[drtanner]

You really have no idea what I’m saying here.

I don't think you really understand what you're saying. You think you're saying something, when you're really broadcasting an entirely different message.

Do you think president bensons intention in giving this talk was to have people follow him over the lord? Or in place of the lord, or have a testimony of him and a relationship with him and not the lord?


If not what was his in intention of giving the talk in terms of individuals relationship with the Lord? How does the 14 points relate to the lord? How does it relate to the gathering? How doesn’t it relate to zion?

These questions show perfectly what you and many others are incorrectly assuming.

I personally, and many others, do not and have not ever thought that these leaders had any intentions other than good intentions. Their intent is precisely why we still love them and sustain them. There are people like DS followers who think otherwise, but they are a minority.

Regardless of their intent, the result of talks like this has been a culture and tradition that takes follow the prophet too far, thus justifying Spencer W Kimballs concern.

It doesn’t relate to Zion because the key to Zion is having an entire people with pure hearts , which comes from being sanctified from the Holy Ghost and pushing onward(The Doctrine of Christ) . I can promise you that in all my time in the church I have to hear some mention of following the prophet AT LEAST 10 times for everyone one time the Doctrine of Christ is mentioned. AT LEAST. This had negative consequences in my life and in the lives of countless individuals throughout my life that I love. Had they been properly taught the Doctrine of Christ 10 times more than follow the prophet instead of the reverse they would be in a much better place, AND SO WOULD THE CHURCH.

Again, this from Benson I wholeheartedly sustain 100%

Would not the progress of the Church increase dramatically today with an increasing number of those who are spiritually reborn? Can you imagine what would happen in our homes? Can you imagine what would happen with an increasing number of copies of the Book of Mormon in the hands of an increasing number of missionaries who know how to use it and who have been born of God? When this happens, we will get the harvest President Kimball envisions. It was the “born of God” Alma who as a missionary was so able to impart the word that many others were also born of God.

Oh and ironically(or coincidentally) In this talk he shares a dream David O Mckay had about Zion. What did his dream say? That those who enter are those who have been Born Again, what a perfect tie in to your question about Zion.


What’s the ratio between those two types of phrases in the Book of Mormon? There literally isn’t a ratio because Prophets teaching follow the prophet isn’t found anywhere in the Book. The Doctrine of Christ is all over the place. You can’t go through any book within without encountering references to the mighty change of heart, the spirit wrought upon so and so, the spirit fell upon so and so etc.

If the entire church was born of god, would there be a need for a prophet? If not why? If yes why?

??? The answer to this question is important and I am interested in hearing your thoughts.

[topcat]

People love President Benson because of his commentary on the gadianton robbers in our government, his conspiracy facts in the Book of Mormon, his talk on pride, and his calling out the church for still being under condemnation for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.

I’m wondering if you also believe President Benson when he said the following:

In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency--the living prophet and the First Presidency--follow them and be blessed--reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain--how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed--the living Prophet--President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

May God bless us all to look to the Prophet and the Presidency in the critical and crucial days ahead is my prayer.

There have been so many blog posts over the years commenting on this uncharacteristic talk by Elder Benson that I'm not going to take the time to parse what has already been written so eloquently before. One example is: http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/searc ... he+Prophet.

Truth is exposed so fully and conclusively by these posts that it really astonishes to hear people try to defend the heresies taught in the 14 fundamentals talk after the fact.

As I've pointed out over and over to the DrTanner's of the world is that they are forced to argue against the Scriptures, and to take the unenviable position to argue that Christ employs other servants at the gate of salvation (2 Nephi 9:41) and to call for trusting in the arm of flesh.


The one thing I will say, as far as the sincerity of Pres Kimball's rebuke in 1980, more or less immediately after Elder Benson gave his talk, is that in the very next year, Pres Kimball's administration ADDED the same key heresy to our canon by digging up the most anti Christ quotes from Wilford Woodruff, and then secretly (without an announcement or vote) added the devilish, apostasy-causing, idolatry-inducing, priestcraft-inviting quotes to OD1. That's right, the excerpts of OD1 were added in 1981.

Is it really a coincidence that this occurred precisely at the time of Benson's talk and Kimball's rebuke?!?!?!?!

This compels one to contemplate what was going on behind the scenes.

On the one hand, you had an innocent man (Elder Benson give the atrocious talk to BYU students and faculty -- indicating he was deceived on the matter), and on the other hand you had apparently SOMEBODY (supposedly Spencer W. Kimball, according to his son) who was upset about Elder Benson's talk.

There were two, maybe three schools of thought: 1) the authoritarian, arm of flesh, follow-the-prophet cult mindset, and 2) those who realized that was bad optics for the Church in that the public may see the Mormons as a cult following a man instead of Christ, and 3) those in the Church leadership who actually discerned the anti Christ nature of the teaching and opposed it.

Based on the essence of Elder Benson's talk being canonized THE FOLLOWING YEAR, I'm guessing that those protesting were mainly in Group 2 (and, as I said, were worried mainly about bad PR -- which the Church DID in fact get), and that Group 1 clearly won the debate.

Group 1 winning the internal squabble was clear because the PTB (Powers That Be) in the Church decided to go ALL IN as the internal "squabble" was occurring.

One possible inference is that the real PTB felt the need to make a power statement to any dissidents in the organization. And that "power play" was to canonize, what I believe was, the single-greatest cause of the apostasy of the Church. Nothing else compares to the damage that the modified OD1 (published secretly in 1981) unleashed on the minds of the members and secondary leadership. Leaders (including up and coming ones, who were being considered for positions in the 70) from this point on would be vetted based on how they "proved" over the years to have loyalty to the Church president above all else, including the Lord Jesus Christ. The litmus test would be, "Are you loyal to the president and do you believe that he cannot lead the Church astray?).

Think about it. I think this addition was the second coup d'etat, the first one occurring when Brigham Young and his conspiring apostolic cohorts wrested control from competing individuals in the years following the Prophet's murder.

The OD1 modification in 1981 laid the foundation for the complete destruction of the mainstream LDS Church. Its modern demise started then, picked up steam with Benson's death (because he was an outsider and truly believed in the divine destiny of the Church, provided the Church would repent and get God to remove His condemnation), and judging by the total free fall occurring now with tithing ostensibly plummeting, mass exodus from the Church, and resorting to gimmicks to slow down the exodus, the end is near. The rise of the Internet has turbo charged the spread of truth, and the effort to insulate members from the truth by excommunicating whistle-blowers has backfired, resulting in the most righteous, intelligent (filled with light and truth) members to leave the Church or stay and try to save some few not under the spell of the mind control apparatus. Millennials aren't being deceived anymore. They see through the hypocrisy and overt corruption and that's why most are not sticking around. The ones staying are doing it for cultural reasons, or have the inability to critically think.

Truly tragic, because it didn't have to be this way.