Do you believe President Benson

[cab]

Heres the thing, you didn't answer Caburnha's question, you simply are pointing out something we already believe and have explained. Yes the BoM is a miracle. Yes Joseph Smith hearkened to the counsel of James TO GET TO THE POINT WHERE HE COULD PART THE VEIL AND RECEIVE FURTHER LIGHT AND KNOWLEDGE FROM THE SOURCE HIMSELF. This point has already been made. The people your trying to prove wrong here believe that at some point in ones spiritual journey, they will most likely need to hearken to the voice of a Servant or one who knows the way because they themselves have partaken of the fruit and know the way. We are not saying there is not an important role that Prophets play in the salvation of men. The problem is the Follow, follow, follow, follow mentality. The problem is the Church's concept of "endure to the end" means to follow the prophet until the end of our lives. This is false doctrine and is not validated by ANY scripture.

A prophet should be having visions and visitations of Angels. They should be parting the veil and receiving Gods word by heavenly messengers:

31 And the office of their ministry [angels] is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfil and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him.

32 And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men.

Yes I agree with you Servants are essential for the residue to plant the seed of Faith. But as that tree grows and bears fruit, is it always going to be necessary to follow follow follow the prophet?

1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts?

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

THIS IS THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. Please show me where Follow the prophet is found in the doctrine of Christ. After we hearken to a Prophets message (as did Joseph, your right!), we truly repent, and are TRULY born again, the Holy Ghost will show us ALL things that we should to come unto Christ.

If this "follow the prophet" message is so crucial that whole sermons are being written on it by our leaders, where are the sermons from the prophets of old. How come Nephi, Jacob, Mosiah, Alma, Momon, Moroni or even Christ himself didn't give these big beautiful sermons on Following the Prophet?

Prophets are an important PART of Gods plan for his Children to learn the Gospel, but we need to stop teaching in a way that makes it seem like Following them IS the Gospel. Oh and I take it back, there are whole chapters in scripture that talk about the follow, follow, follow mentality.... Its called idol worship, and there are MANY examples showing ancient Israel holding their leaders up as idols. I think its time we start applying the scriptures to ourselves.

You and many others reading are missing the point here. This has everything to do with Christ. This entire post. This is not about a me vs you, this is about us and Christ. Preparing for his return, gathering Israel, and establishing zion. D&C 38:27! That will never happen if we can't become one. That won't happen if we don't agree on the principle in this post. He will use his servants to help him do this and prepare the world to meet him, the same as he has always done. The sooner we recognize this, receive confirmation, and make necessary changes the sooner we can work towards that end.

We are not missing the point. I have spent my entire life believing that point. Its just that sometimes God reveals new truths that replace the old.

36 ¶ And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.

37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Point being, if we are humble and submissive, and truly hearken to the voice of Christ, he will teach us his mysteries. These new truths often seemingly contradict what we had previously believed. The scriptures are full of examples of this. People often have set parameters (AKA not believing anything outside of what the Brethren teach) and so they do not believe new ideas that may very well be true. Its not that the wine is not good, its that your bottle is old.

And if Joseph Smith would have told that to Moroni and waited for Christ we would not have the Book of Mormon.

Now that's just silly. No one is suggesting that.

Ministration of Angels = Anointed Servants = Voice of the Lord, will of the Lord, mind of the Lord

What some of us are pointing out is that events like ^^ seem to not have happened for a long time (you know, like 3 to 4 generations)... And we are suggesting that perhaps prophets like Nephi or Moroni might not be as optimistic about our situation as we tend to be....

[Craig Johnson]

Please show me where Follow the prophet is found in the doctrine of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
Clearly, we are to follow the Prophets of God-to the Lord-which is where they lead us to.
We are taught this same thing nowadays, reject it at your peril.

[Hosh]

Clearly you have not read (or you have amd do not understand) the rest of what I have said on the subject. Thank you for cherry picking one statement without considering the rest of the message.

And again please show me where Follow the Prophet is found in THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. I'm assuming everyone here knows what the DOCTINE of CHRIST is. Its kind of important to underatand if we are to have any sort of rational discussion.

[drtanner]

Clearly you have not read (or you have amd do not understand) the rest of what I have said on the subject. Thank you for cherry picking one statement without considering the rest of the message.

And again please show me where Follow the Prophet is found in THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. I'm assuming everyone here knows what the DOCTINE of CHRIST is. Its kind of important to underatand if we are to have any sort of rational discussion.

I would say it is axiomatic in the fact that a prophet is the one giving the scripture and teaching the doctrine to begin with. If you didn’t believe what he wrote or said the doctrine would have no efficacy.

[Hosh]

Again, you dont understand my message. I have already established that hearjening to an anointed servants voice is part of God's plan for the residue to establish faith. I am not going to re-post everything I have already said. I have said, it, others have said it, if you don't understand it, it is because you ask not, neither do you knock.

[I AM]

We HAVE NOT REPENTED and are still under condemnation
for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=50596&p=914479&hil ... on#p914479

Ezra T. Benson
has said that we were under condemnation
for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.
“If the early Saints were rebuked for treating
the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less
condemnation if we do the same?”
(in Conference Report, Oct. 1986, 4;
or Ensign, Nov. 1986, 4–5).

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—

[Hosh]

We HAVE NOT REPENTED and are still under condemnation
for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=50596&p=914479&hil ... on#p914479

Ezra T. Benson
has said that we were under condemnation
for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.
“If the early Saints were rebuked for treating
the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less
condemnation if we do the same?”
(in Conference Report, Oct. 1986, 4;
or Ensign, Nov. 1986, 4–5).

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—

Are Church leaders included in ALL the children of Zion, or do they get a free pass?

Can anyone deny this? Can we really sit back and say ALL IS WELL? "

A prophet! A prophet! We have a Prophet! There cannot be anymore..."

drTanner which brings me back to my point. Just because some people here have a message that we have set our leaders up as idols does not mean we reject the need for Servants of God who declare the Gospel of Christ with power and Authority, just as Nephi in 2Nephi 29 is not denying that the Bible is a sacred book of scripture.

[harakim]

“God has chosen His servants. He claims it as His prerogative to condemn them, if they need condemnation. He has not given it to us individually to censure and condemn them. No man, however strong he may be in the faith, however high in the Priesthood, can speak evil of the Lord’s anointed and find fault with God’s authority on the earth without incurring His displeasure. The Holy Spirit will withdraw himself from such a man, and he will go into darkness. This being the case, do you not see how important it is that we should be careful?”

That's something I will have to ponder. I have found fault with Thomas S Monson and Boyd K Packer, among others and still have the blessing of The Holy Spirit. Maybe finding fault with them is something more serious like hating them for it?

[Rand]

People love President Benson because of his commentary on the gadianton robbers in our government, his conspiracy facts in the Book of Mormon, his talk on pride, and his calling out the church for still being under condemnation for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.

I’m wondering if you also believe President Benson when he said the following:

In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency--the living prophet and the First Presidency--follow them and be blessed--reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain--how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed--the living Prophet--President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

May God bless us all to look to the Prophet and the Presidency in the critical and crucial days ahead is my prayer.

I believe him. The scriptures validate this approach.

[Zathura]

“God has chosen His servants. He claims it as His prerogative to condemn them, if they need condemnation. He has not given it to us individually to censure and condemn them. No man, however strong he may be in the faith, however high in the Priesthood, can speak evil of the Lord’s anointed and find fault with God’s authority on the earth without incurring His displeasure. The Holy Spirit will withdraw himself from such a man, and he will go into darkness. This being the case, do you not see how important it is that we should be careful?”

That's something I will have to ponder. I have found fault with Thomas S Monson and Boyd K Packer, among others and still have the blessing of The Holy Spirit. Maybe finding fault with them is something more serious like hating them for it?

Yes, like maybe "Finding Fault" and "Speaking evil of them" is actually things like accusing them of priestcraft and adultery and financial crimes and of being a fallen prophet or a deceiver(Like what happened to Joseph Smith).

Saying they got something wrong in a speech to BYU or in GC isn't speaking evil/finding fault.

It's as if they happened to say 4+4=9 in a talk and I'm like, hey actually its 8. Let's calm down a bit, there is no "Finding Fault" here, I'm not "Pointing out their human weaknesses", I'm not "Speaking evil of them". It's all going to be okayyy. If I told drtanner that something in a talk he gave in Sacrament last Sunday might be inaccurate and show him the scripture that shows it, he might be bugged, he might take it well, but the last thing he'd say is that I'm speaking evil of him or finding fault with him. It's not any different once you're talking about the guys at the pulpit of GC.

[lundbaek]

Can anybody identify any statement made by Ezra Taft Benson while serving as Prophet and President of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints that was repealed or corrected by a subsequent Church President at a later time ?

[cab]

His recommendation of "None Dare Call it Conspiracy" was never printed haha...

[I AM]

Clearly you have not read (or you have amd do not understand) the rest of what I have said on the subject. Thank you for cherry picking one statement without considering the rest of the message.

And again please show me where Follow the Prophet is found in THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. I'm assuming everyone here knows what the DOCTINE of CHRIST is. Its kind of important to underatand if we are to have any sort of rational discussion.

------------

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=48164&p=850829&hil ... st#p850829

[I AM]

We HAVE NOT REPENTED and are still under condemnation
for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=50596&p=914479&hil ... on#p914479

Ezra T. Benson
has said that we were under condemnation
for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.
“If the early Saints were rebuked for treating
the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less
condemnation if we do the same?”
(in Conference Report, Oct. 1986, 4;
or Ensign, Nov. 1986, 4–5).

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—

Are Church leaders included in ALL the children of Zion, or do they get a free pass?

Can anyone deny this? Can we really sit back and say ALL IS WELL? "

A prophet! A prophet! We have a Prophet! There cannot be anymore..."

drTanner which brings me back to my point. Just because some people here have a message that we have set our leaders up as idols does not mean we reject the need for Servants of God who declare the Gospel of Christ with power and Authority, just as Nephi in 2Nephi 29 is not denying that the Bible is a sacred book of scripture.

-------------
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=51277&p=924994&hil ... ah#p924994

[Hosh]

Clearly you have not read (or you have amd do not understand) the rest of what I have said on the subject. Thank you for cherry picking one statement without considering the rest of the message.

And again please show me where Follow the Prophet is found in THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. I'm assuming everyone here knows what the DOCTINE of CHRIST is. Its kind of important to underatand if we are to have any sort of rational discussion.

------------

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=48164&p=850829&hil ... st#p850829

Awsome! Thanks for sharing. I'm new to the forum so its been fun exploring all the discussions. I dont know how long ill last on here though haha. Gets a bit frustrating when you share scripture after scripture to prove the word of God, and people answer with "I know the church is true" responses, with no scriptural basis whatsoever. I'm sure you know the feeling all too well.

[I AM]

“God has chosen His servants. He claims it as His prerogative to condemn them, if they need condemnation. He has not given it to us individually to censure and condemn them. No man, however strong he may be in the faith, however high in the Priesthood, can speak evil of the Lord’s anointed and find fault with God’s authority on the earth without incurring His displeasure. The Holy Spirit will withdraw himself from such a man, and he will go into darkness. This being the case, do you not see how important it is that we should be careful?”

---------------
If you think for 1 minute that the Lord is still leading the church, you are gravely mistaken.
We haven't received revelation for over a hundred years, when we fell into apostasy when we decided to start making our own decisions and not following Him, but the "precepts of men".

you said
" No man, however strong he may be in the faith, however high in the Priesthood, can speak evil of the Lord’s anointed and find fault with God’s authority on the earth without incurring His displeasure. The Holy Spirit will withdraw himself from such a man, and he will go into darkness. This being the case, do you not see how important it is that we should be careful?”

I guess you haven't heard of the prophet Isaiah then, or understood his words.
YES ISAIAH !
you know, the one that Jesus said:
"for great are the words of Isaiah" and
gave us a commandment that we search them diligently.
I WONDER WHY !

"The Drunkards of Ephraim! "

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Tables Full of Vomit—The Learning of Men

Isaiah spares no words when indicting God’s people, particularly their leaders. When he says of Ephraim’s priests and prophets, “All tables are full of vomit; no spot is without excrement” (Isaiah 28:8), his intent is figurative. The context of this entire chapter relates to Ephraim’s self-deception, its reluctance to receive direct revelation from God, instead relying solely on the beginner’s method of learning—“line upon line, precept upon precept” (Isaiah 28:10). Half-digested truths are regurgitated for God’s people to swallow, so much that God intervenes to restore his word—but not until that state of affairs provokes his judgments (Isaiah 28:11–22).

When Sabbath meetings, fast days, and temple ordinances become mere routine (Isaiah 1:10–15; 58:1–3), when people’s piety toward God “consists of commandments of men learned by rote” while their hearts remain far from him (Isaiah 29:13), when his people’s prophets and seers have fallen into a deep sleep (Isaiah 29:10), God intervenes for good and for evil. For good, when he “lay in Zion a stone, a keystone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation” (Isaiah 28:16). For good, when he brings forth “the words of the book” (Isaiah 29:18). For evil, when he brings “a flooding scourge” upon those who mock at how he intervenes (Isaiah 28:14–22).

[lundbaek]

His recommendation of "None Dare Call it Conspiracy" was never printed haha...

I think it possible that Elder Benson added his recommendation of the book "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" after he had written his talk, which was printed in the Jul 1972 Ensign magazine as originally written. However, it may also have been "muzzled" to prevent retribution against the Church by persons and organizations given "dishonourable mention" in the book.

[cab]

His recommendation of "None Dare Call it Conspiracy" was never printed haha...

I think it possible that Elder Benson added his recommendation of the book "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" after he had written his talk, which was printed in the Jul 1972 Ensign magazine as originally written. However, it may also have been "muzzled" to prevent retribution against the Church by persons and organizations given "dishonourable mention" in the book.

Yep... Regardless, it's a must read...

[Craig Johnson]

Clearly you have not read (or you have amd do not understand) the rest of what I have said on the subject. Thank you for cherry picking one statement without considering the rest of the message.

And again please show me where Follow the Prophet is found in THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. I'm assuming everyone here knows what the DOCTINE of CHRIST is. Its kind of important to underatand if we are to have any sort of rational discussion.

What you say on the subject is not really that important. The Apostle Paul and other Apostles and Prophets counsel us to follow. If you don't want to and you want to play terminological games and phrases that is your choice. Keep in mind, unless it torments you, that you have to read the words of a Prophet (which constitutes following one) to even know that the doctrine of Christ exists. Everything you have ever acquired from the scriptures you acquired by following the prophet who wrote down that doctrine because the Lord has not written down one word. Now waste your time finding a way to dispute out of that. You HAVE to follow a prophet in order to get to the Lord because you have no choice, this is why He sent the prophets, reject their prophetic office and importance to you at your own peril.

[Hosh]

Aaaaaand I'm out. Thank you for your thoughts brother. I pray you will begin to have an open mind and someday understand that there may be more to the puzzle than meets the eye. God bless you in your journey.

[drtanner]

“Enoch continued teaching the people to live as the Savior would have them live, and he built a city that was called “the city of Holiness, even Zion.” The people who lived in it were very righteous. They lived as the Lord commanded. There were no poor, because everyone loved and served one another, having “one heart and one mind.” After many years of obedience, Enoch, with Zion and all its people, were taken into heaven, where there was nothing but “peace, justice, and truth.”

Elder Christofferson this last conference:

First, and crucial for the Lord’s return, is the presence on the earth of a people prepared to receive Him at His coming. He has stated that those who remain upon the earth in that day, “from the least [to] the greatest, … shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord, and shall see eye to eye, and shall lift up their voice, and with the voice together sing this new song, saying: The Lord hath brought again Zion. … The Lord hath gathered all things in one. The Lord hath brought down Zion from above. The Lord hath brought up Zion from beneath.”
In ancient times, God took the righteous city of Zion to Himself.

By contrast, in the last days a new Zion will receive the Lord at His return. Zion is the pure in heart, a people of one heart and one mind, dwelling in righteousness with no poor among them. The Prophet Joseph Smith stated, “We ought to have the building up of Zion as our greatest object.” We build up Zion in our homes, wards, branches, and stakes through unity, godliness, and charity.

We must acknowledge that the building up of Zion occurs in tumultuous times—“a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.” Thus, the gathering into stakes becomes “for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth.”

This great and last dispensation is building steadily to its climax—Zion on earth being joined with Zion from above at the Savior’s glorious return. The Church of Jesus Christ is commissioned to prepare—and is preparing—the world for that day. And so, this Easter, let us truly celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and all that it portends: His return to reign for a thousand years of peace, a righteous judgment and perfect justice for all, the immortality of all who ever lived upon this earth, and the promise of eternal life. Christ’s Resurrection is the ultimate assurance that all will be put right. Let us be about building up Zion to hasten that day. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.”

Collectively we will not get there if we don’t follow the prophet, meaning what? Trusting that he can help us collectively as a group come in harmony with the laws of God as the Lord helps us individually. Just as the people of Enoch did by following him as he spoke for the lord and to the people individually as a result of doing what he invited them to do. We won’t get there by division, we won’t get there by trying to by-pass what President Nelson is inviting us to do.

[Hosh]

“Enoch continued teaching the people to live as the Savior would have them live, and he built a city that was called “the city of Holiness, even Zion.” The people who lived in it were very righteous. They lived as the Lord commanded. There were no poor, because everyone loved and served one another, having “one heart and one mind.” After many years of obedience, Enoch, with Zion and all its people, were taken into heaven, where there was nothing but “peace, justice, and truth.”

Elder Christofferson this last conference:

First, and crucial for the Lord’s return, is the presence on the earth of a people prepared to receive Him at His coming. He has stated that those who remain upon the earth in that day, “from the least [to] the greatest, … shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord, and shall see eye to eye, and shall lift up their voice, and with the voice together sing this new song, saying: The Lord hath brought again Zion. … The Lord hath gathered all things in one. The Lord hath brought down Zion from above. The Lord hath brought up Zion from beneath.”
In ancient times, God took the righteous city of Zion to Himself.

By contrast, in the last days a new Zion will receive the Lord at His return. Zion is the pure in heart, a people of one heart and one mind, dwelling in righteousness with no poor among them. The Prophet Joseph Smith stated, “We ought to have the building up of Zion as our greatest object.” We build up Zion in our homes, wards, branches, and stakes through unity, godliness, and charity.

We must acknowledge that the building up of Zion occurs in tumultuous times—“a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.” Thus, the gathering into stakes becomes “for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth.”

This great and last dispensation is building steadily to its climax—Zion on earth being joined with Zion from above at the Savior’s glorious return. The Church of Jesus Christ is commissioned to prepare—and is preparing—the world for that day. And so, this Easter, let us truly celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and all that it portends: His return to reign for a thousand years of peace, a righteous judgment and perfect justice for all, the immortality of all who ever lived upon this earth, and the promise of eternal life. Christ’s Resurrection is the ultimate assurance that all will be put right. Let us be about building up Zion to hasten that day. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.”

Collectively we will not get there if we don’t follow the prophet, meaning what? Trusting that he can help us collectively as a group come in harmony with the laws of God as the Lord helps us individually. Just as the people of Enoch did by following him as he spoke for the lord and to the people individually as a result of doing what he invited them to do. We won’t get there by division, we won’t get there by trying to by-pass what President Nelson is inviting us to do.

Yeah because nowhere in any of my posts did I not say I believe that hearkning to a prophets voice (if he is a true prophet, seer, and revelatory) is part of Gods plan for us to establish faith. You know I said this multiple times, yet ignore it because it doesnt fit in your argument against me. That's why I'm done with this thread. You disregard what I already said. You are triggered by certain phrases and they cause you to believe that I have completely thrown out the important role of true prophets. My argument is not whether or not Prophets are essential in Gods plan. It is that our current standing as a church is not what we tend to think it is. We praise our leaders and call them Prophets, seers, and revelators without hearing any prophecies or revelating. The fruits just arent there. The messenges they share are not any different than those I can hear in from any well spoken member of the church. The fact that you compare what is going on today to that of Enoch and the holy city proves that there is a huge sense of blindness as to where we stand. It makes me sad that people actually think that we are anywhere close to being the Church of the Firstborn. There is a new post by Caburnha. This is where the real argument is. I'm done with this thread. You have proved you dont understand my argument by your constant reposting of examples of people in scripture listening to prophets. As I said before that is not my argument. I know TRUE servants of God are essential in his plans for the salvation of His children.

[drtanner]

“Enoch continued teaching the people to live as the Savior would have them live, and he built a city that was called “the city of Holiness, even Zion.” The people who lived in it were very righteous. They lived as the Lord commanded. There were no poor, because everyone loved and served one another, having “one heart and one mind.” After many years of obedience, Enoch, with Zion and all its people, were taken into heaven, where there was nothing but “peace, justice, and truth.”

Elder Christofferson this last conference:

First, and crucial for the Lord’s return, is the presence on the earth of a people prepared to receive Him at His coming. He has stated that those who remain upon the earth in that day, “from the least [to] the greatest, … shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord, and shall see eye to eye, and shall lift up their voice, and with the voice together sing this new song, saying: The Lord hath brought again Zion. … The Lord hath gathered all things in one. The Lord hath brought down Zion from above. The Lord hath brought up Zion from beneath.”
In ancient times, God took the righteous city of Zion to Himself.

By contrast, in the last days a new Zion will receive the Lord at His return. Zion is the pure in heart, a people of one heart and one mind, dwelling in righteousness with no poor among them. The Prophet Joseph Smith stated, “We ought to have the building up of Zion as our greatest object.” We build up Zion in our homes, wards, branches, and stakes through unity, godliness, and charity.

We must acknowledge that the building up of Zion occurs in tumultuous times—“a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.” Thus, the gathering into stakes becomes “for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth.”

This great and last dispensation is building steadily to its climax—Zion on earth being joined with Zion from above at the Savior’s glorious return. The Church of Jesus Christ is commissioned to prepare—and is preparing—the world for that day. And so, this Easter, let us truly celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and all that it portends: His return to reign for a thousand years of peace, a righteous judgment and perfect justice for all, the immortality of all who ever lived upon this earth, and the promise of eternal life. Christ’s Resurrection is the ultimate assurance that all will be put right. Let us be about building up Zion to hasten that day. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.”

Collectively we will not get there if we don’t follow the prophet, meaning what? Trusting that he can help us collectively as a group come in harmony with the laws of God as the Lord helps us individually. Just as the people of Enoch did by following him as he spoke for the lord and to the people individually as a result of doing what he invited them to do. We won’t get there by division, we won’t get there by trying to by-pass what President Nelson is inviting us to do.

Yeah because nowhere in any of my posts did I not say I believe that hearkning to a prophets voice (if he is a true prophet, seer, and revelatory) is part of Gods plan for us to establish faith. You know I said this multiple times, yet ignore it because it doesnt fit in your argument against me. That's why I'm done with this thread. You disregard what I already said. You are triggered by certain phrases and they cause you to believe that I have completely thrown out the important role of true prophets. My argument is not whether or not Prophets are essential in Gods plan. It is that our current standing as a church is not what we tend to think it is. We praise our leaders and call them Prophets, seers, and revelators without hearing any prophecies or revelating. The fruits just arent there. The messenges they share are not any different than those I can hear in from any well spoken member of the church. The fact that you compare what is going on today to that of Enoch and the holy city proves that there is a huge sense of blindness as to where we stand. It makes me sad that people actually think that we are anywhere close to being the Church of the Firstborn. There is a new post by Caburnha. This is where the real argument is. I'm done with this thread. You have proved you dont understand my argument by your constant reposting of examples of people in scripture listening to prophets. As I said before that is not my argument. I know TRUE servants of God are essential in his plans for the salvation of His children.

Hosh this was not intended as a response to your posts. What I have shared is what I believe. We have true servants, we just need to follow what they are teaching which in Elder Christoffersons case above is to start to do all we can to become one.

[Hosh]

Thank you for your thoughts brother. This is where we will differ in our views. I will be interested in what you have to say in Caburnha's newest post.

[drtanner]

Thank you for your thoughts brother. This is where we will differ in our views. I will be interested in what you have to say in Caburnha's newest post.

Caburnha’s “newest” post is old news and same view shared by many here who think the church is in apostasy in large thanks to Avraham Gileadi who has perpetuated those views. There is no spiritual basis in the claims and Avraham Gileadi is no prophet.