Page 9 of 9

Re: Do you believe President Benson

Posted: April 16th, 2019, 11:08 pm
by righteousrepublic
lundbaek wrote: April 16th, 2019, 10:53 pm Is it being suggested that Latter-day Saints are failing America, and hence the rest of the world ? It certainly seems that way to me, generally speaking.
As we are aware, most membership resides outside of the US. We are also aware that some unfaithful LDS foment in favor of socialistic programs.

foment = stir up, raise, encourage, promote, excite, spur, foster, stimulate, provoke, brew, arouse, rouse, agitate, quicken, incite, instigate, whip up, goad, abet, sow the seeds of, fan the flames

So out of the entire US membership, just how many are striving to live the gospel, keep their covenants, stand as a witness for Christ, love and want real freedom, honor the Constitution and those God raised up for that very purpose, and let their light so shine before men that they glorify God?

If we knew the number remaining that are not so much interested in doing right, then we might get an idea of how many are helping the demise of America.

Re: Do you believe President Benson

Posted: April 16th, 2019, 11:08 pm
by topcat
righteousrepublic wrote: April 16th, 2019, 10:42 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: April 16th, 2019, 9:58 pm
righteousrepublic wrote: April 16th, 2019, 9:44 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: April 16th, 2019, 9:24 pm

Finally someone gets it! Now reconcile this with what has been written in this thread about 3 Nephi 16. Who is the Salt that shall lose its Savor in the last days? Who is it that the Lord takes the fullness away from to give it to another people (3Nephi 16: 10-15)?

You have the right definition (based off D&C 101), now connect the dots!
It's very simple. Faithful members of the church are among the House of Israel. Unfaithful members (and the term faithful includes making and keeping covenants, living the gospel of Jesus Christ the very best they are able, standing as witnesses for Christ, Mosiah 18:9) may not be considered as part of the House of Israel because of their lackadaisical lifestyle.

Unfaithful members that do not keep their covenants, etc. are the salt that loses its savor. They may once have lived the gospel and been very good members, but through non commitment lose their savor because they no longer can...

Matthew 5:16
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Now what better savor can one think of than this?
So what it should say is, "Then those who have been numbered among the house of Israel (who are the Salt of the last days according to you) who do not remain true to their covenants and do not repent, thus reverting back to Gentiles status, shall be as Salt that has lost its savor." Unfortunately it does not say that. It says then shall they (THE GENTILES) be as SALT that has lost its savor. The way you say it is changing the scriptures. Its simple, Why don't you just let the scriptures say what they say?
Because one has to read more than just one verse. Now check out D&C 103.

5–10, The Saints will prevail if they keep the commandments

5 But verily I say unto you, that I have decreed a decree which my people shall realize, inasmuch as they hearken from this very hour unto the counsel which I, the Lord their God, shall give unto them.
6 Behold they shall, for I have decreed it, begin to prevail against mine enemies from this very hour.
7 And by hearkening to observe all the words which I, the Lord their God, shall speak unto them, they shall never cease to prevail until the kingdoms of the world are subdued under my feet, and the earth is given unto the saints, to possess it forever and ever.
8 But inasmuch as they keep not my commandments, and hearken not to observe all my words, the kingdoms of the world shall prevail against them.
9 For they (the Saints) were set to be a light unto the world, and to be the saviors of men;
10 And inasmuch as they are not the saviors of men, they are as salt that has lost its savor, and is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.

It is not the gentiles that are to be the salt, rather, it is the Saints of God. Okay?

3 Nephi 16 says the House of Israel will go through and trodden down the Gentiles and they will be as salt that has lost its savor. The Gentiles are not the salt, they will be as salt that lost its savor. Big difference.

So I didn't change anything.
Saints are Gentiles.

You say "saints" as if to exclude Gentiles from being saints, or saints from being Gentiles. We are, meaning the Mormons, part of the Gentiles. Not all American Gentile are Mormon/ saints, but all American Mormon saints are Gentiles.

So yes, you are changing things.

Not to mention look at verse 8 from DC 103 which you quoted but did not highlight. It prophesies what 3rd Nephi 16:10 is prophesying, namely that there will be an apostasy and the kingdoms of this world will prevail against the Gentile saints.

Re: Do you believe President Benson

Posted: April 16th, 2019, 11:17 pm
by righteousrepublic
lundbaek wrote: April 16th, 2019, 10:53 pm Is it being suggested that Latter-day Saints are failing America, and hence the rest of the world ? It certainly seems that way to me, generally speaking.
As we are aware, most membership resides outside of the US. We are also aware that some unfaithful LDS foment in favor of socialistic programs.

foment = stir up, raise, encourage, promote, excite, spur, foster, stimulate, provoke, brew, arouse, rouse, agitate, quicken, incite, instigate, whip up, goad, abet, sow the seeds of, fan the flames

So out of the entire US membership, just how many are striving to live the gospel, keep their covenants, stand as a witness for Christ, love and want real freedom, honor the Constitution and those God raised up for that very purpose, and let their light so shine before men that they glorify God?

If we knew the number remaining that are not so much interested in doing right, then we might get an idea of how many are helping the demise of America.

Re: Do you believe President Benson

Posted: April 16th, 2019, 11:31 pm
by righteousrepublic
topcat wrote: April 16th, 2019, 11:08 pm
righteousrepublic wrote: April 16th, 2019, 10:42 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: April 16th, 2019, 9:58 pm
righteousrepublic wrote: April 16th, 2019, 9:44 pm
It's very simple. Faithful members of the church are among the House of Israel. Unfaithful members (and the term faithful includes making and keeping covenants, living the gospel of Jesus Christ the very best they are able, standing as witnesses for Christ, Mosiah 18:9) may not be considered as part of the House of Israel because of their lackadaisical lifestyle.

Unfaithful members that do not keep their covenants, etc. are the salt that loses its savor. They may once have lived the gospel and been very good members, but through non commitment lose their savor because they no longer can...

Matthew 5:16
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Now what better savor can one think of than this?
So what it should say is, "Then those who have been numbered among the house of Israel (who are the Salt of the last days according to you) who do not remain true to their covenants and do not repent, thus reverting back to Gentiles status, shall be as Salt that has lost its savor." Unfortunately it does not say that. It says then shall they (THE GENTILES) be as SALT that has lost its savor. The way you say it is changing the scriptures. Its simple, Why don't you just let the scriptures say what they say?
Because one has to read more than just one verse. Now check out D&C 103.

5–10, The Saints will prevail if they keep the commandments

5 But verily I say unto you, that I have decreed a decree which my people shall realize, inasmuch as they hearken from this very hour unto the counsel which I, the Lord their God, shall give unto them.
6 Behold they shall, for I have decreed it, begin to prevail against mine enemies from this very hour.
7 And by hearkening to observe all the words which I, the Lord their God, shall speak unto them, they shall never cease to prevail until the kingdoms of the world are subdued under my feet, and the earth is given unto the saints, to possess it forever and ever.
8 But inasmuch as they keep not my commandments, and hearken not to observe all my words, the kingdoms of the world shall prevail against them.
9 For they (the Saints) were set to be a light unto the world, and to be the saviors of men;
10 And inasmuch as they are not the saviors of men, they are as salt that has lost its savor, and is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.

It is not the gentiles that are to be the salt, rather, it is the Saints of God. Okay?

3 Nephi 16 says the House of Israel will go through and trodden down the Gentiles and they will be as salt that has lost its savor. The Gentiles are not the salt, they will be as salt that lost its savor. Big difference.

So I didn't change anything.
Saints are Gentiles. Incorrect.

You say "saints" as if to exclude Gentiles from being saints, or saints from being Gentiles. We are, meaning the Mormons, part of the Gentiles. Not all American Gentile are Mormon/ saints, but all American Mormon saints are Gentiles. Again, incorrect.

So yes, you are changing things.

Not to mention look at verse 8 from DC 103 which you quoted but did not highlight. It prophesies what 3rd Nephi 16:10 is prophesying, namely that there will be an apostasy and the kingdoms of this world will prevail against the Gentile saints.
Come on, topcat, read the heading above 103. What does it tell us in reference to verses 5-10? And I've already posted verses proving that saints are of the house or Israel, and a lot of LDS know this fact. Are you going to say God is wrong?

But, here are the verses again.


1 Nephi 15:14
14 And at that day shall the remnant of our seed know that they are of the house of Israel, and that they are the covenant people of the Lord; and then shall they know and come to the knowledge of their forefathers, and also to the knowledge of the gospel of their Redeemer, which was ministered unto their fathers by him; wherefore, they shall come to the knowledge of their Redeemer and the very points of his doctrine, that they may know how to come unto him and be saved.

2 Nephi 30:2
2 For behold, I say unto you that as many of the Gentiles as will repent are the covenant people of the Lord; and as many of the Jews as will not repent shall be cast off; for the Lord covenanteth with none save it be with them that repent and believe in his Son, who is the Holy One of Israel.

How many people outside of the LDS faith do you consider covenant people with the Lord?

Re: Do you believe President Benson

Posted: April 16th, 2019, 11:54 pm
by Hosh
righteousrepublic wrote: April 16th, 2019, 10:42 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: April 16th, 2019, 9:58 pm
righteousrepublic wrote: April 16th, 2019, 9:44 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: April 16th, 2019, 9:24 pm

Finally someone gets it! Now reconcile this with what has been written in this thread about 3 Nephi 16. Who is the Salt that shall lose its Savor in the last days? Who is it that the Lord takes the fullness away from to give it to another people (3Nephi 16: 10-15)?

You have the right definition (based off D&C 101), now connect the dots!
It's very simple. Faithful members of the church are among the House of Israel. Unfaithful members (and the term faithful includes making and keeping covenants, living the gospel of Jesus Christ the very best they are able, standing as witnesses for Christ, Mosiah 18:9) may not be considered as part of the House of Israel because of their lackadaisical lifestyle.

Unfaithful members that do not keep their covenants, etc. are the salt that loses its savor. They may once have lived the gospel and been very good members, but through non commitment lose their savor because they no longer can...

Matthew 5:16
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Now what better savor can one think of than this?
So what it should say is, "Then those who have been numbered among the house of Israel (who are the Salt of the last days according to you) who do not remain true to their covenants and do not repent, thus reverting back to Gentiles status, shall be as Salt that has lost its savor." Unfortunately it does not say that. It says then shall they (THE GENTILES) be as SALT that has lost its savor. The way you say it is changing the scriptures. Its simple, Why don't you just let the scriptures say what they say?
Because one has to read more than just one verse. Now check out D&C 103.

5–10, The Saints will prevail if they keep the commandments

5 But verily I say unto you, that I have decreed a decree which my people shall realize, inasmuch as they hearken from this very hour unto the counsel which I, the Lord their God, shall give unto them.
6 Behold they shall, for I have decreed it, begin to prevail against mine enemies from this very hour.
7 And by hearkening to observe all the words which I, the Lord their God, shall speak unto them, they shall never cease to prevail until the kingdoms of the world are subdued under my feet, and the earth is given unto the saints, to possess it forever and ever.
8 But inasmuch as they keep not my commandments, and hearken not to observe all my words, the kingdoms of the world shall prevail against them.
9 For they (the Saints) were set to be a light unto the world, and to be the saviors of men;
10 And inasmuch as they are not the saviors of men, they are as salt that has lost its savor, and is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.

It is not the gentiles that are to be the salt, rather, it is the Saints of God. Okay?

3 Nephi 16 says the House of Israel will go through and trodden down the Gentiles and they will be as salt that has lost its savor. The Gentiles are not the salt, they will be as salt that lost its savor. Big difference.

So I didn't change anything.
I respectfully disagree with your interpretation. I can tell you search the scriptures and and have sought to have a true understanding of them. We will just disagree on interpretation and timing of these things. I agree with you that there will be a grafting. You believe the Saints have already been grafted, I believe the saints never prevailed because they failed to keep the commandments and are still numbered with the Gentiles. I did not pull this out of thin air. Please dont accuse me of cherry picking verses. I believe the way I do because I see many scriptures confirming the things i and many others here have said. You will likewise say the same thing, and I respect that. For now, we will not see eye to eye. I pray someday we will. I will leave it at that. Thank you for your thoughts brother.

And ill leave this quote from Caburnha from a different thread here, because I think it is worth considering.
caburnha wrote: April 16th, 2019, 7:48 pm Only one Gentile people calls themselves Zion in the last days (2 Nephi 28:24-32)
Only one Gentile people received the fullness in the last days - which could be lost (3 Nephi 16:10-11)
Only one Gentile people receives the covenant "salt" in the last days - which could lose its savor (3 Nephi 16:13-15)
Only one Gentile people is being denied the sealed book of the Brother of Jared - for lack of repentance (Ether 4)
Only one Gentile people has tried to justify itself in taking multiple wives (Jacob 1:12-15, Mosiah 11:1-4, Ether 10:2-6)
Only one Gentile people can be considered the "holy church of God" - which then pollutes it (Mormon 8:38)
Only one Gentile people have denied the gifts that were promised so fully (Mormon 9:15-26, Moroni 7:27-39)
Only one Gentile people was spoken to by Moroni "as though I spake from the dead" (Mormon 8:35, 9:30)

Yeah, the BoM warnings, cursings, and wo's are for the LDS.... Unfortunately, we like to think the blessings are all that apply to us, while mostly ignoring the conditions upon which those blessings were predicated.

Re: Do you believe President Benson

Posted: April 17th, 2019, 12:16 am
by righteousrepublic
Hosh4710 wrote: April 16th, 2019, 11:54 pmI respectfully disagree with your interpretation. I can tell you search the scriptures and and have sought to have a true understanding of them. We will just disagree on interpretation and timing of these things. I agree with you that there will be a grafting. You believe the Saints have already been grafted, I believe the saints never prevailed because they failed to keep the commandments and are still numbered with the Gentiles. I did not pull this out of thin air. Please dont accuse me of cherry picking verses. I believe the way I do because I see many scriptures confirming the things i and many others here have said. You will likewise say the same thing, and I respect that. For now, we will not see eye to eye. I pray someday we will. I will leave it at that. Thank you for your thoughts brother.
Okay.

Re: Do you believe President Benson

Posted: April 17th, 2019, 10:22 am
by lundbaek
Most American Latter-day Saints of my acquaintance or with whom I associate in church are striving to live the gospel, keep their covenants, and stand as a witness for Christ, but it seems to me that most do not appreciate real freedom and liberty, and do not, other that occasional lip service, honor the Constitution and those God raised up to establish it. I think most are not cognizant of the fact that the Lord established the Constitution (Ref. D&C 101:80) and that they, as Latter-day Saints living in America, have been assigned by the Lord a role in upholding and defending it.

In that connection, just this week I read a book entitled "The Message" by the late Lance Richardson, in which he relates a NDE during which he met a group of men who had died in the Revolutionary and Civil Wars. The spokesman for the group said "We have given our all for the preservation of the United States of America, in order that the Zion of the last days may one day be built upon her soil. We continue to serve God in this effort, working upon the people of this nation to continue to choose sovereignty, peace, and freedom based upon the inalienable rights granted by God. We have, and are still, giving our all. Now what are you doing for this cause ?" Brother Richardson concluded the chapter of the book (14) with the statement "And so I must herald their message, and eco the question they posed to me, 'Now, what are you doing for this cause?' Someday, I believe, we will answer at the very judgement bar of God concerning how we have used these profound blessings."

Re: Do you believe President Benson

Posted: April 17th, 2019, 10:51 am
by drtanner
lundbaek wrote: April 17th, 2019, 10:22 am Most American Latter-day Saints of my acquaintance or with whom I associate in church are striving to live the gospel, keep their covenants, and stand as a witness for Christ, but it seems to me that most do not appreciate real freedom and liberty, and do not, other that occasional lip service, honor the Constitution and those God raised up to establish it. I think most are not cognizant of the fact that the Lord established the Constitution (Ref. D&C 101:80) and that they, as Latter-day Saints living in America, have been assigned by the Lord a role in upholding and defending it.

In that connection, just this week I read a book entitled "The Message" by the late Lance Richardson, in which he relates a NDE during which he met a group of men who had died in the Revolutionary and Civil Wars. The spokesman for the group said "We have given our all for the preservation of the United States of America, in order that the Zion of the last days may one day be built upon her soil. We continue to serve God in this effort, working upon the people of this nation to continue to choose sovereignty, peace, and freedom based upon the inalienable rights granted by God. We have, and are still, giving our all. Now what are you doing for this cause ?" Brother Richardson concluded the chapter of the book (14) with the statement "And so I must herald their message, and eco the question they posed to me, 'Now, what are you doing for this cause?' Someday, I believe, we will answer at the very judgement bar of God concerning how we have used these profound blessings."
I would love to hear your thoughts on a new thread about what you believe we actually can or should be doing to uphold the constitution at this point. I think most are just at a loss as to what they should or could actually be doing.

Re: Do you believe President Benson

Posted: April 17th, 2019, 11:29 am
by Zathura
topcat wrote: April 16th, 2019, 5:03 pm I tend to agree with your assessment. And I've studied Mosiah 5 many, many times.

I have had the baptism of fire. I have been born again (having that wicked spirit rooted out of my breast and no longer desiring anyting evil but desiring good as a born again soul), and can testify of the change of heart that comes as you yield yourself to Christ and make sacrifices to please Him.

I have had the knowledge that the path I am on is in accordance with God's will.

Part of Christ's doctrine is to become as a little child, so with that being said, I confess I don't understand things, and don't understand most things, especially the things of godliness. I have not seen into the heavens. I have not been in the presence of God. I've not communed with Him.

That is something I do seek, however.

I would like to know more about the covenant that the people in Mosiah 5 entered into. I wish I was there that day. It appears that they became sons and daughters of Christ. Was there an adoption? Is there more to the story there? As legal administrator, did King Benjamin oversee some type of special covenantal ordinance?
I don't believe there was any physical ordinance or anything like that after the fact. I think the whole purpose of physical things it's to point towards the real thing.

We might be telling God that we wish to make a Covenant and follow him when we are Baptized, but that action in and of itself is not ratified without God's approval. The term "Seal" is used in many different contexts, when used in this context it simply means that the Spirit ratifies that baptism and covenant. I think that this "seal" in this context is synonymous with the Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost. The experience in and of itself is the "Initiation" of the Covenant from God himself. In that moment they have truly entered into a Covenant with God and have taken the name of Christ upon themselves because they are now his sons and daughters. No need for a mortal to oversee it when it was the God of heaven and earth that performed the "spiritual ordinance".

Re: Do you believe President Benson

Posted: April 17th, 2019, 11:41 am
by lundbaek
drtanner wrote: April 17th, 2019, 10:51 am
I would love to hear your thoughts on a new thread about what you believe we actually can or should be doing to uphold the constitution at this point. I think most are just at a loss as to what they should or could actually be doing.
I can only say what I have done thus far in that connection.
1.) Continue trying to "learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers" as President Benson said we must do in October 1987.
2.) Read up on what the Lord, latter-day prophets and apostles have said/written about the US Constitution.
3.) Actively participate in the John Birch Society, the Constitution Party, and any other activity that promotes awareness of the importance of the US Constitution and awareness of the new world order conspiracy.
4.) Ran for US Congress as an independent write-in candidate in 2008, and help campaign for candidates who espouse the principles of the Constitution.
5.) Organized occasional firesides and similar events promoting awareness of the importance of the US Constitution and awareness of the new world order conspiracy.
6.) Continually nag at members of the LDSFF with my frequent posts.

May I suggest reading President Benson's October 1987 Conference address "Our Divine Constitution", in which he told us in some detail things we "must" do to "befriend the Constitution".

Re: Do you believe President Benson

Posted: May 1st, 2019, 1:30 pm
by righteousrepublic
The information in the OP was presented without any explanation for each one. I have now presented the same fourteen fundamentals with their followup supporting information. Italics added. SEE: https://www.lds.org/study/liahona/1981/ ... t?lang=eng

Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet

President Ezra Taft Benson,

Of the Quorum of the Twelve

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)

My beloved brothers and sisters. I am honored to be in your presence today. You students are a part of a choice young generation—a generation which might well witness the return of the Lord.

Not only is the Church growing in number today, it is growing in faithfulness and, even more important, our young generation, as a group, is even more faithful than the older generation. God has reserved you for the eleventh hour—the great and dreadful day of the Lord (D&C 110:16). It will be your responsibility not only to help to carry the kingdom to a triumph but to save your own soul and strive to save those of your family and to honor the principles of the inspired constitution of the United States.

To help you pass the crucial tests which lie ahead, I am going to give you today several aspects of a grand key which, if you will honor, will crown you with God’s glory and bring you out victorious in spite of Satan’s fury.

Soon we will be honoring our prophet on his 85th birthday. As a Church we sing the hymn, “We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet.” (Hymn no. 196). Here then is the grand key—Follow the prophet—and here are fourteen fundamentals in following the prophet, the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

In section 132 verse 7 of the Doctrine and Covenants [D&C 132:7] the Lord speaks of the prophet—the president—and says:

“There is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred.”

Then in section 21 verses 4–6 [D&C 21:4–6], the Lord states:

“Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

“For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.

“For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.”

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the Standard Works.

President Wilford Woodruff tells of an interesting incident that occurred in the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

“I will refer to a certain meeting I attended in the town of Kirtland in my early days. At that meeting some remarks were made that have been made here today, with regard to the living prophets and with regard to the written word of God. The same principle was presented, although not as extensively as it has been here, when a leading man in the Church got up and talked upon the subject, and said: ‘You have got the word of God before you here in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants; you have the written word of God, and you who give revelations should give revelations according to those books, as what is written in those books is the word of God. We should confine ourselves to them.’

“When he concluded, Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, ‘Brother Brigham I want you to go to the podium and tell us your views with regard to the living oracles and the written word of God.’ Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: ‘There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now,’ said he, ‘when compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.’ That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation; ‘Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth.’” (Conference Report, October 1897, pp. 18–19.)

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.


God’s revelation to Adam did not instruct Noah how to build the Ark. Noah needed his own revelation. Therefore the most important prophet so far as you and I are concerned is the one living in our day and age to whom the Lord is currently revealing His will for us. Therefore the most important reading we can do is any of the words of the prophet contained each month in our Church Magazines. Our instructions about what we should do for each six months are found in the General Conference addresses which are printed in the Church magazine.

Beware of those who would set up the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

President Wilford Woodruff stated:

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God.” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)

President Marion G. Romney tells of this incident which happened to him:

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home … Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or diplomas to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

Sometimes there are those who feel their earthly knowledge on a certain subject is superior to the heavenly knowledge which God gives to his prophet on the same subject. They feel the prophet must have the same earthly credentials or training which they have had before they will accept anything the prophet has to say that might contradict their earthly schooling. How much earthly schooling did Joseph Smith have? Yet he gave revelations on all kinds of subjects. We haven’t yet had a prophet who earned a doctorate degree in any subject. We encourage earthly knowledge in many areas, but remember if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet and you’ll be blessed and time will show you have done the right thing.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.

Sometimes there are those who argue about words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel but that we are not obliged to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet, “Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you.” (D&C 21:4.)

And speaking of taking counsel from the prophet, in D&C 108:1, the Lord states:

“Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Lyman: Your sins are forgiven you, because you have obeyed my voice in coming up hither this morning to receive counsel of him whom I have appointed.”

Said Brigham Young, “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture.” (Journal of Discourses, 13:95.)

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

“Thou has declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear,” complained Nephi’s brethren. But Nephi answered by saying, “The guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.” (1 Ne. 16:1–2.)

Said President Harold B. Lee:

“You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may conflict with your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life … Your safety and ours depends upon whether or not we follow … Let’s keep our eye on the President of the Church.” (Conference Report, October 1970, p. 152–153.)

But it is the living prophet who really upsets the world. “Even in the Church,” said President Kimball, “many are prone to garnish the sepulchres of yesterdays prophets and mentally stone the living ones.” (Instructor, 95:527.)

Why? Because the living prophet gets at what we need to know now, and the world prefers that prophets either be dead or worry about their own affairs. Some so-called experts of political science want the prophet to keep still on politics. Some would-be authorities on evolution want the prophet to keep still on evolution. And so the list goes on and on.

How we respond to the words of a living prophet when he tells us what we need to know, but would rather not hear, is a test of our faithfulness.

Said President Marion G. Romney, “It is an easy thing to believe in the dead prophets, but it is a greater thing to believe in the living prophets.” And then he gives this illustration:

“One day when President Grant was living, I sat in my office across the street following a general conference. A man came over to see me, an elderly man. He was very upset about what had been said in this conference by some of the Brethren, including myself. I could tell from his speech that he came from a foreign land. After I had quieted him enough so he would listen, I said, ‘Why did you come to America?’ ‘I am here because a prophet of God told me to come.’ ‘Who was the prophet?’ I continued. ‘Wilford Woodruff.’ ‘Do you believe Wilford Woodruff was a prophet of God?’ ‘Yes, sir.’

“Then came the sixty-four dollar question, ‘Do you believe that Heber J. Grant is a prophet of God?’ His answer, ‘I think he ought to keep his mouth shut about old-age assistance.’

“Now I tell you that a man in his position is on the way to apostasy. He is forfeiting his chances for eternal life. So is everyone who cannot follow the living prophet of God.” (Conference Report, April 1953, p. 125.)

Eighth: The Prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.

There will be times when you will have to choose between the revelation of God and reasoning of men—between the prophet and the professor. Said the Prophet Joseph Smith,

“Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof until long after the events transpire.” (Scrapbook of Mormon Literature, vol. 2, p. 173).

Would it seem reasonable to an eye doctor to be told to heal a blind man by spitting in the dirt, making clay and applying it to the man’s eyes and then telling him to wash in a contaminated pool? Yet this is precisely the course that Jesus took with one man, and he was healed. (See John 9:6–7.) Does it seem reasonable to cure leprosy by telling a man to wash seven times in a particular river, yet this is precisely what the prophet Elisha told a leper to do, and he was healed. (See 2 Kgs. 5.)

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isa. 55:8–9.)

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter—temporal or spiritual.

Said Brigham Young:

“Some of the leading men in Kirtland were much opposed to Joseph the Prophet, meddling with temporal affairs …

“In a public meeting of the Saints, I said, ‘Ye Elders of Israel, … will some of you draw the line of demarcation, between the spiritual and temporal in the kingdom of God, so that I may understand it?’ Not one of them could do it …

“I defy any man on earth to point out the path a Prophet of God should walk in, or point out his duty, and just how far he must go, in dictating temporal or spiritual things. Temporal and spiritual things are inseparably connected, and ever will be.” (Journal of Discourses, 10:363–64.)

Tenth: The prophet may well advise on civic matters. When a people are righteous, they want the best to lead them in government. Alma was the head of the Church and of the government in the Book of Mormon; Joseph Smith was mayor of Nauvoo and Brigham Young was governor of Utah. Isaiah was deeply involved in giving counsel on political matters and of his words the Lord himself said, “Great are the words of Isaiah.” (3 Ne. 23:1.)

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

The learned may feel the prophet is only inspired when he agrees with them, otherwise the prophet is just giving his opinion—speaking as a man. The rich may feel they have no need to take counsel of a lowly prophet.

In the Book of Mormon we read:

“O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

“But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

“And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.” (2 Ne. 9:28–29, 42; italics added.)

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.


As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. The honest in heart heed his words but the unrighteous either ignore the prophet or fight him. When the prophet points out the sins of the world, the worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Many a prophet has been killed or cast out. As we come closer to the Lord’s second coming you can expect that as the people of the world become more wicked, the prophet will be less popular with them.

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—The highest quorum in the Church.

In the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord refers to the First Presidency as “the highest council of the Church” (D&C 107:80) and says “whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent …” (D&C 112:20).

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

President Harold B. Lee relates this incident from Church history:

“The story is told in the early days of the Church—particularly, I think, at Kirtland, Ohio—where some of the leading brethren in the presiding councils of the Church met secretly and tried to scheme as to how they could get rid of the Prophet Joseph’s leadership. They made the mistake of inviting Brigham Young to one of these secret meetings. He rebuked them, after he had heard the purpose of their meeting. This is part of what he said: ‘You cannot destroy the appointment of a prophet of God, but you can cut the thread that binds you to the prophet of God, and sink yourselves to hell.’” (Conference Report, April 1963, p. 81.)

In a general conference of the Church, President N. Eldon Tanner stated:

“The Prophet spoke out clearly on Friday morning, telling us what our responsibilities are …

“A man said to me after that, ‘You know, there are people in our state who believe in following the Prophet in everything they think is right, but when it is something they think isn’t right, and it doesn’t appeal to them, then that’s different.’ He said, ‘Then they become their own prophet. They decide what the Lord wants and what the Lord doesn’t want.’

“I thought how true, and how serious when we begin to choose which of the covenants, which of the commandments we will keep and follow, we are taking the law of the Lord into our own hands and become our own prophets, and believe me, we will be led astray, because we are false prophets to ourselves when we do not follow the Prophet of God. No, we should never discriminate between these commandments, as to those we should and should not keep.” (CR, October 1966, p. 98.)

“Look to the Presidency and receive instruction,” said the Prophet Joseph Smith. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 161.) But Almon Babbitt didn’t, and in the Doctrine and Covenants section 124, verse 84 [D&C 124:84], the Lord states:

“And with my servant Almon Babbitt, there are many things with which I am not pleased; behold, he aspireth to establish his counsel instead of the counsel which I have ordained, even that of the Presidency of my Church.”