LDS Freedom Forum

caburnha wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 5:13 pm

endlessismyname wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 4:52 pm Cabhurna says:

"Did Nephi always rely on Lehi? Not for very long."

What evidence do you have for that? What I see when I read the account is a faithful son who always relied on his father (the prophet) to lead him and his family.

An example (and I may botch this a bit, but you'll know what I'm talking about) can be seen when Nephi needs to go out and hunt for some food to save his family's lives. I'm sure Nephi could have just headed out and gone wherever he pleased. But what did he do? He went to the prophet, asked him where he should go, and then followed his counsel.

From where I stand, Nephi relied on the prophet until the prophet died. I really don't see any other way of interpreting it.

He believed on his father's words, then sought the Lord and received the same word for himself. Just like he encouraged his brothers to do.

I don't see this anywhere in the text, at least not in regards to his asking his father where to go to find food.

As for which way they were to go in the wilderness (or which way they should go for food) the Liahona was the means provided for that.

And who was entrusted with the Liahona? The prophet, Lehi.

Which, when Nephi broke his bow, it didn't work until Lehi repented of his murmuring.

So why didn't Nephi just take the Liahona from Lehi and use it himself. Clearly, he was spiritually prepared to use it, according to the record. Why did he preach to his father instead, and exhort him to repent?

After he repented, the Liahona showed him where they should to go for food... In fact, in this case, Lehi repented in part because of Nephi's preaching.

That's a good point, and we should all look to this story as a perfect example of how prophets are not infallible. They're human, and they murmur from time to time. Even today, I'm sure.

So I guess you could say Lehi followed Nephi...

Semantics. You could also say Lehi listened to Nephi, or Lehi hearkened to Nephi's words.

I guess we could then debate what the Liahona is meant to represent... I'd argue that it's the Holy Ghost/Word of Christ/iron rod and maybe you'd argue it's the Prophet...

I don't know what the point of that would be. The Liahona was an object. I don't know that it represented anything to Lehi and his family. It was a means to an end, not some sort of philosophical abstraction. I have a hard time envisioning Nephi sitting around the fire wondering, "I wonder if the Liahona represents the Holy Ghost, or the prophet?" Who knows, though. Maybe he did just that.

endlessismyname wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 9:41 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 5:13 pm

endlessismyname wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 4:52 pm Cabhurna says:

"Did Nephi always rely on Lehi? Not for very long."

What evidence do you have for that? What I see when I read the account is a faithful son who always relied on his father (the prophet) to lead him and his family.

An example (and I may botch this a bit, but you'll know what I'm talking about) can be seen when Nephi needs to go out and hunt for some food to save his family's lives. I'm sure Nephi could have just headed out and gone wherever he pleased. But what did he do? He went to the prophet, asked him where he should go, and then followed his counsel.

From where I stand, Nephi relied on the prophet until the prophet died. I really don't see any other way of interpreting it.

He believed on his father's words, then sought the Lord and received the same word for himself. Just like he encouraged his brothers to do.

I don't see this anywhere in the text, at least not in regards to his asking his father where to go to find food.

As for which way they were to go in the wilderness (or which way they should go for food) the Liahona was the means provided for that.

And who was entrusted with the Liahona? The prophet, Lehi.

Which, when Nephi broke his bow, it didn't work until Lehi repented of his murmuring.

So why didn't Nephi just take the Liahona from Lehi and use it himself. Clearly, he was spiritually prepared to use it, according to the record. Why did he preach to his father instead, and exhort him to repent?

After he repented, the Liahona showed him where they should to go for food... In fact, in this case, Lehi repented in part because of Nephi's preaching.

That's a good point, and we should all look to this story as a perfect example of how prophets are not infallible. They're human, and they murmur from time to time. Even today, I'm sure.

So I guess you could say Lehi followed Nephi...

Semantics. You could also say Lehi listened to Nephi, or Lehi hearkened to Nephi's words.

I guess we could then debate what the Liahona is meant to represent... I'd argue that it's the Holy Ghost/Word of Christ/iron rod and maybe you'd argue it's the Prophet...

I don't know what the point of that would be. The Liahona was an object. I don't know that it represented anything to Lehi and his family. It was a means to an end, not some sort of philosophical abstraction. I have a hard time envisioning Nephi sitting around the fire wondering, "I wonder if the Liahona represents the Holy Ghost, or the prophet?" Who knows, though. Maybe he did just that.

My responses are in red inside the quoted text.

I'm not a fan of getting involved in long back and forths, so I'll give you the last word. Thanks for giving me something to think about today. God bless.

endlessismyname wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 9:41 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 5:13 pm

endlessismyname wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 4:52 pm Cabhurna says:

"Did Nephi always rely on Lehi? Not for very long."

What evidence do you have for that? What I see when I read the account is a faithful son who always relied on his father (the prophet) to lead him and his family.

An example (and I may botch this a bit, but you'll know what I'm talking about) can be seen when Nephi needs to go out and hunt for some food to save his family's lives. I'm sure Nephi could have just headed out and gone wherever he pleased. But what did he do? He went to the prophet, asked him where he should go, and then followed his counsel.

From where I stand, Nephi relied on the prophet until the prophet died. I really don't see any other way of interpreting it.

He believed on his father's words, then sought the Lord and received the same word for himself. Just like he encouraged his brothers to do.

I don't see this anywhere in the text, at least not in regards to his asking his father where to go to find food.

As for which way they were to go in the wilderness (or which way they should go for food) the Liahona was the means provided for that.

And who was entrusted with the Liahona? The prophet, Lehi.

Which, when Nephi broke his bow, it didn't work until Lehi repented of his murmuring.

So why didn't Nephi just take the Liahona from Lehi and use it himself. Clearly, he was spiritually prepared to use it, according to the record. Why did he preach to his father instead, and exhort him to repent?

After he repented, the Liahona showed him where they should to go for food... In fact, in this case, Lehi repented in part because of Nephi's preaching.

That's a good point, and we should all look to this story as a perfect example of how prophets are not infallible. They're human, and they murmur from time to time. Even today, I'm sure.

So I guess you could say Lehi followed Nephi...

Semantics. You could also say Lehi listened to Nephi, or Lehi hearkened to Nephi's words.

I guess we could then debate what the Liahona is meant to represent... I'd argue that it's the Holy Ghost/Word of Christ/iron rod and maybe you'd argue it's the Prophet...

I don't know what the point of that would be. The Liahona was an object. I don't know that it represented anything to Lehi and his family. It was a means to an end, not some sort of philosophical abstraction. I have a hard time envisioning Nephi sitting around the fire wondering, "I wonder if the Liahona represents the Holy Ghost, or the prophet?" Who knows, though. Maybe he did just that.

My responses are in red inside the quoted text.

I'm not a fan of getting involved in long back and forths, so I'll give you the last word. Thanks for giving me something to think about today. God bless.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 9:30 pm No one has addressed why they called more apostles in 4th Nephi. What was the purpose? If people have the spirit why?

Also people seem to have conveniently glossed over this scripture:

3 Nephi 28:

34 And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

One wo for not hearkening to the words of whom he hath chosen. It does not get any clearer than this in terms of a divine purpose for prophets. You can not get around this principle folks. You will ultimately be faced with either believing these men or not, and according to 3rd Nephi those who wouldn’t have believed whom he called would not be led to salvation as President Benson and others declare with boldness and truth.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 10:20 pm What you still don't understand is that we don't have a problem listening to the counsel of these prophets. It irks us when all we hear from them is "Follow the Prophet".

Go serve, cure the sick and afflicted, labor to help souls find Christ.
Labor as Alma did:
Alma 36:24 I have labored without ceasing, that I might bring souls unto repentance; that I might bring them to taste of the exceeding joy of which I did taste; that they might also be born of God, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

I can follow that. Again, as long as I'm hearing "Follow the Prophet" 10x more than I hear anything about the Doctrine of Christ, I'm not down with that message, but I'll still sustain and support your in your efforts.

caburnha wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 10:34 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 10:20 pm What you still don't understand is that we don't have a problem listening to the counsel of these prophets. It irks us when all we hear from them is "Follow the Prophet".

Go serve, cure the sick and afflicted, labor to help souls find Christ.
Labor as Alma did:
Alma 36:24 I have labored without ceasing, that I might bring souls unto repentance; that I might bring them to taste of the exceeding joy of which I did taste; that they might also be born of God, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

I can follow that. Again, as long as I'm hearing "Follow the Prophet" 10x more than I hear anything about the Doctrine of Christ, I'm not down with that message, but I'll still sustain and support your in your efforts.

The last three Elders Quorum lessons I've been at have been PowerPoints centered on follow the prophet.... Well, actually the topics were ministering, then the church's quasi-name change, then repentance.... But all three immediately looped back to follow the prophet (cause, obviously, that's why we do these things... that's how we show obedience... that's what the Lord is requiring of us today, cause that's what the prophet has asked of us).... All 3 different instructors....

Stahura wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 10:10 pm

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 9:30 pm No one has addressed why they called more apostles in 4th Nephi. What was the purpose? If people have the spirit why?

Also people seem to have conveniently glossed over this scripture:

3 Nephi 28:

34 And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

One wo for not hearkening to the words of whom he hath chosen. It does not get any clearer than this in terms of a divine purpose for prophets. You can not get around this principle folks. You will ultimately be faced with either believing these men or not, and according to 3rd Nephi those who wouldn’t have believed whom he called would not be led to salvation as President Benson and others declare with boldness and truth.

I glossed over it because my answer to you included the fact that there will still be priesthood callings(like disciples, I fully expect callings and responsibilities and leadership). My friend, I'm waiting for you to expound further.

(Also the fruits of those disciples are quite different from the fruits we see from any single soul on earth since Joseph Smith)

We ought to have the building up of Zion as our greatest object. We build up Zion in our homes, wards, branches, and stakes through unity, godliness, and charity.

What can we do to prepare now for that day? We can prepare ourselves as a people; we can gather the Lord’s covenant people; and we can help redeem the promise of salvation “made to the fathers,” our ancestors. All of this must occur in some substantial measure before the Lord comes again.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:15 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 10:10 pm

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 9:30 pm No one has addressed why they called more apostles in 4th Nephi. What was the purpose? If people have the spirit why?

Also people seem to have conveniently glossed over this scripture:

3 Nephi 28:

34 And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

One wo for not hearkening to the words of whom he hath chosen. It does not get any clearer than this in terms of a divine purpose for prophets. You can not get around this principle folks. You will ultimately be faced with either believing these men or not, and according to 3rd Nephi those who wouldn’t have believed whom he called would not be led to salvation as President Benson and others declare with boldness and truth.

I glossed over it because my answer to you included the fact that there will still be priesthood callings(like disciples, I fully expect callings and responsibilities and leadership). My friend, I'm waiting for you to expound further.

(Also the fruits of those disciples are quite different from the fruits we see from any single soul on earth since Joseph Smith)

It is beyond responsibilities, callings and leadership. The Lord will give revelation to his prophet for his people. Look no further then the Doctrine & Covenants. How many individuals were Born of God and beyond who received countless revelations from Joseph for them specifically sometimes over and over. This included what to do with money, how to build Zion, where to go on missions, how and where to build temples, how to perform ordinances, explanations of doctrine, understanding of their standing with the Lord, and on and on and on. This is a pattern, this is a principle. The Lord will continue to do this through his prophet today, why? Because his house is a house of order. Adam was taught and blessed by messengers from God, Enoch's people learned how to establish Zion by listening to a him, Noah's people were saved by listening to him. Moses....

We have to be extremely careful at separating and labeling individual salvation because of Jesus Christ and the importance of moving the salvation of mankind forward through an organization that contains the authorized ordinances and establishing communities approved and ordained of God by following direction from his servants. His work could not be accomplished without prophets, never has, and never will. Surely the Lord will do nothing without a prophet.

As far as hearing follow the prophet 10x more my opinion is that isn't true, you are just hearing it because it bugs you, but in reality every single talk and hymn in conference touched on an element of the Doctrine of Christ and Christ himself, every single one.

I crave zion, I would love to live in a community with people who love God and man, and as Elder Christofferson said in conference:

We ought to have the building up of Zion as our greatest object. We build up Zion in our homes, wards, branches, and stakes through unity, godliness, and charity.

What can we do to prepare now for that day? We can prepare ourselves as a people; we can gather the Lord’s covenant people; and we can help redeem the promise of salvation “made to the fathers,” our ancestors. All of this must occur in some substantial measure before the Lord comes again.

We need direction as a whole to for this to happen, and that direction will need to come from the prophet. Individual salvation and sanctification, different story.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:15 pm
As far as hearing follow the prophet 10x more my opinion is that isn't true, you are just hearing it because it bugs you, but in reality every single talk and hymn in conference touched on an element of the Doctrine of Christ and Christ himself, every single one.

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:47 pm

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:15 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 10:10 pm

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 9:30 pm No one has addressed why they called more apostles in 4th Nephi. What was the purpose? If people have the spirit why?

Also people seem to have conveniently glossed over this scripture:

3 Nephi 28:

34 And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

One wo for not hearkening to the words of whom he hath chosen. It does not get any clearer than this in terms of a divine purpose for prophets. You can not get around this principle folks. You will ultimately be faced with either believing these men or not, and according to 3rd Nephi those who wouldn’t have believed whom he called would not be led to salvation as President Benson and others declare with boldness and truth.

I glossed over it because my answer to you included the fact that there will still be priesthood callings(like disciples, I fully expect callings and responsibilities and leadership). My friend, I'm waiting for you to expound further.

(Also the fruits of those disciples are quite different from the fruits we see from any single soul on earth since Joseph Smith)

It is beyond responsibilities, callings and leadership. The Lord will give revelation to his prophet for his people. Look no further then the Doctrine & Covenants. How many individuals were Born of God and beyond who received countless revelations from Joseph for them specifically sometimes over and over. This included what to do with money, how to build Zion, where to go on missions, how and where to build temples, how to perform ordinances, explanations of doctrine, understanding of their standing with the Lord, and on and on and on. This is a pattern, this is a principle. The Lord will continue to do this through his prophet today, why? Because his house is a house of order. Adam was taught and blessed by messengers from God, Enoch's people learned how to establish Zion by listening to a him, Noah's people were saved by listening to him. Moses....

We have to be extremely careful at separating and labeling individual salvation because of Jesus Christ and the importance of moving the salvation of mankind forward through an organization that contains the authorized ordinances and establishing communities approved and ordained of God by following direction from his servants. His work could not be accomplished without prophets, never has, and never will. Surely the Lord will do nothing without a prophet.

As far as hearing follow the prophet 10x more my opinion is that isn't true, you are just hearing it because it bugs you, but in reality every single talk and hymn in conference touched on an element of the Doctrine of Christ and Christ himself, every single one.

I crave zion, I would love to live in a community with people who love God and man, and as Elder Christofferson said in conference:

We ought to have the building up of Zion as our greatest object. We build up Zion in our homes, wards, branches, and stakes through unity, godliness, and charity.

What can we do to prepare now for that day? We can prepare ourselves as a people; we can gather the Lord’s covenant people; and we can help redeem the promise of salvation “made to the fathers,” our ancestors. All of this must occur in some substantial measure before the Lord comes again.

We need direction as a whole to for this to happen, and that direction will need to come from the prophet. Individual salvation and sanctification, different story.

So let me ask you a question. You've read the Book of Mormon I'm guessing more than a handful of times. Youve read the warnings issued to the people living in the last days. Youve read the words of many Prophets in the book of Mormon pleading for the gentiles who receive these things to repent. Do you truly believe that none of these warnings or calls to repentance are for us as a Church? Can you honestly do a self assessment of where we stand today and say, "nope, those messages are for the other churches, not for us." I'm serious, does it not even cross your mind at all that it could be us in 2 Nephi 28 that Nephi is talking about when he says "Wo unto him that is at ease IN zion, yea wo into him that crieth all is well!" Has it ever even crossed your mind? Even a little bit? Seriously, just what if 2 Nephi 28 is all about us? Isn't it worth at least turning to God and asking, "am I guilty of these things? Are we as a church guilty of these things?" Does it really hurt to ask? I assure you many of the people here you are arguing with have asked these things, and maybe, just maybe you should consider that they may have recieved answers to their prayers that we are indeed guilty of many of the things the Book of Mormon warns us of.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:54 pm

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:15 pm
As far as hearing follow the prophet 10x more my opinion is that isn't true, you are just hearing it because it bugs you, but in reality every single talk and hymn in conference touched on an element of the Doctrine of Christ and Christ himself, every single one.

Bro, come on. I'm having a hard time not thinking you're being dishonest at this point.
How often do you hear the following terms in Sacrament meeting, whether it's testimonies or talks:

Baptism of Fire
Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost
Born Again
Born of God
Become as a little Child
Sanctified

VS

something something beloved prophet
led by true prophets of God
Russel M Nelson
follow the prophet
I know the church is led by a prophet

How about during class?
How about on this forum?

Lets just do a quick search for prophet on this forum;

Prophet - 59649
Leaders - 48003
Nelson - 6550
Monson - 11842
Born Again - 19706
Baptism of Fire - 4359

Obviously this is pretty poor data science right here and it'd take a bit of time to sort through a refine the searches to exclude certain things(the phrase leader can be a conversation about many things other than Church leaders, prophet can be used in many contexts), but come on, NELSON has more results that Baptism of Fire? "Prophet" has 5 times the results as Born Again?
Tell me it isn't taboo at this point to talk about the Baptism of Fire from the pulpit now days. It's literally a red flag that leaders look out for at this point(But actually it is).

Our little children chant FOLLOW THE PROPHET over and over and over. I felt sick to my stomach when I taught primary. Like bro, 5-6 times in a row every week.
My sister knows hardly anything of the gospel. Co-habitates with a guy, doesn't go to church, doesn't read scriptures, constantly complains that God doesn't answer her prayers, complains about how the Church treats gays, but LORD HELP YOU if you say something that contradicts the prophet. She suddenly becomes a zealous Nelsonite the moment you suggest something might not be revelation.
Pray tell, how do people with no Spiritual experiences, no desire to live the gospel have such an attachment to the prophet? BECAUSE IT'S TAUGHT MORE THAN ANY TOPIC.

Do you have a clue how many investigators I lost because they didn't understand why ALL of the testimonies and lessons she happened to hear were about Joseph Smith or this American named Monson? They'd show up for 2-3 weeks and be confused at how little they hear about Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

Seriously, I can't. If you aren't willing to admit that it's discussed far less than "follow the prophet", then I really can't discuss anything with you anymore.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 12:08 am Your making this more than it is and over-reacting.

King Benjamin never used the phrases

Baptism of Fire
Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost
Born Again
Born of God

in his initial sermon that caused the people to experience conversion but ironically he did say this:

Mosiah 3:13 And the Lord God hath sent his holy prophets among all the children of men, to declare these things to every kindred, nation, and tongue, that thereby whosoever should believe that Christ should come, the same might receive remission of their sins, and rejoice with exceedingly great joy, even as though he had already come among them.

15 And many signs, and wonders, and types, and shadows showed he unto them, concerning his coming; and also holy prophets spake unto them concerning his coming; and yet they hardened their hearts, and understood not that the law of Moses availeth nothing except it were through the atonement of his blood.

He understood the principle and purpose of how people are really motivated to come unto Christ and wasn't fixated on teaching that his people should have an event as a way to try and influence them into that experience.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 12:08 am

Mosiah 3:13 And the Lord God hath sent his holy prophets among all the children of men, to declare these things to every kindred, nation, and tongue, that thereby whosoever should believe that Christ should come, the same might receive remission of their sins, and rejoice with exceedingly great joy, even as though he had already come among them.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 12:08 am

Stahura wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:54 pm

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:15 pm
As far as hearing follow the prophet 10x more my opinion is that isn't true, you are just hearing it because it bugs you, but in reality every single talk and hymn in conference touched on an element of the Doctrine of Christ and Christ himself, every single one.

Bro, come on. I'm having a hard time not thinking you're being dishonest at this point.
How often do you hear the following terms in Sacrament meeting, whether it's testimonies or talks:

Baptism of Fire
Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost
Born Again
Born of God
Become as a little Child
Sanctified

VS

something something beloved prophet
led by true prophets of God
Russel M Nelson
follow the prophet
I know the church is led by a prophet

How about during class?
How about on this forum?

Lets just do a quick search for prophet on this forum;

Prophet - 59649
Leaders - 48003
Nelson - 6550
Monson - 11842
Born Again - 19706
Baptism of Fire - 4359

Obviously this is pretty poor data science right here and it'd take a bit of time to sort through a refine the searches to exclude certain things(the phrase leader can be a conversation about many things other than Church leaders, prophet can be used in many contexts), but come on, NELSON has more results that Baptism of Fire? "Prophet" has 5 times the results as Born Again?
Tell me it isn't taboo at this point to talk about the Baptism of Fire from the pulpit now days. It's literally a red flag that leaders look out for at this point(But actually it is).

Our little children chant FOLLOW THE PROPHET over and over and over. I felt sick to my stomach when I taught primary. Like bro, 5-6 times in a row every week.
My sister knows hardly anything of the gospel. Co-habitates with a guy, doesn't go to church, doesn't read scriptures, constantly complains that God doesn't answer her prayers, complains about how the Church treats gays, but LORD HELP YOU if you say something that contradicts the prophet. She suddenly becomes a zealous Nelsonite the moment you suggest something might not be revelation.
Pray tell, how do people with no Spiritual experiences, no desire to live the gospel have such an attachment to the prophet? BECAUSE IT'S TAUGHT MORE THAN ANY TOPIC.

Do you have a clue how many investigators I lost because they didn't understand why ALL of the testimonies and lessons she happened to hear were about Joseph Smith or this American named Monson? They'd show up for 2-3 weeks and be confused at how little they hear about Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

Seriously, I can't. If you aren't willing to admit that it's discussed far less than "follow the prophet", then I really can't discuss anything with you anymore.

Your making this more than it is and over-reacting.

King Benjamin never used the phrases

Baptism of Fire
Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost
Born Again
Born of God

in his initial sermon that caused the people to experience conversion but ironically he did say this:

Mosiah 3:13 And the Lord God hath sent his holy prophets among all the children of men, to declare these things to every kindred, nation, and tongue, that thereby whosoever should believe that Christ should come, the same might receive remission of their sins, and rejoice with exceedingly great joy, even as though he had already come among them.

15 And many signs, and wonders, and types, and shadows showed he unto them, concerning his coming; and also holy prophets spake unto them concerning his coming; and yet they hardened their hearts, and understood not that the law of Moses availeth nothing except it were through the atonement of his blood.

He understood the principle and purpose of how people are really motivated to come unto Christ and wasn't fixated on teaching that his people should have an event as a way to try and influence them into that experience.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 12:25 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 12:08 am Your making this more than it is and over-reacting.

King Benjamin never used the phrases

Baptism of Fire
Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost
Born Again
Born of God

in his initial sermon that caused the people to experience conversion but ironically he did say this:

Mosiah 3:13 And the Lord God hath sent his holy prophets among all the children of men, to declare these things to every kindred, nation, and tongue, that thereby whosoever should believe that Christ should come, the same might receive remission of their sins, and rejoice with exceedingly great joy, even as though he had already come among them.

15 And many signs, and wonders, and types, and shadows showed he unto them, concerning his coming; and also holy prophets spake unto them concerning his coming; and yet they hardened their hearts, and understood not that the law of Moses availeth nothing except it were through the atonement of his blood.

He understood the principle and purpose of how people are really motivated to come unto Christ and wasn't fixated on teaching that his people should have an event as a way to try and influence them into that experience.

Lets think about the situation he was in versus the situation I'm in.
Why am i talking about this? Why are so many pointing this out?

Because we see Mormons everywhere we go literally teaching this the exact opposite way it's taught in the scriptures and this gross misunderstanding turns them away and causes them to fall short of the very blessings that Satan tries his hardest to prevent.
I'd be SHOCKED if King Benjamin would be super chill with that and just choose not to address it.

If you served a mission you know you cater to your audience as the Spirit directs. If you're talking to some people that really don't need to hear the Restoration lesson and the Spirit tells you to preach the Atonement of Jesus Christ, you do it.
This people doesn't need to be told to follow the prophet because there's pictures of him everywhere and little children chant it every sunday and investigators come away convinced this is the Church of Russel M Nelson and Joseph Smith.

Guaranteed that King Benjamin's message would be different were that the situation he was in. He'd chastise them the same way Joseph spoke of the saints.

“President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel–said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church–that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls–applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints–said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall–that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds…"

Stahura wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 12:34 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 12:08 am

Stahura wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:54 pm

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:15 pm
As far as hearing follow the prophet 10x more my opinion is that isn't true, you are just hearing it because it bugs you, but in reality every single talk and hymn in conference touched on an element of the Doctrine of Christ and Christ himself, every single one.

Bro, come on. I'm having a hard time not thinking you're being dishonest at this point.
How often do you hear the following terms in Sacrament meeting, whether it's testimonies or talks:

Baptism of Fire
Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost
Born Again
Born of God
Become as a little Child
Sanctified

VS

something something beloved prophet
led by true prophets of God
Russel M Nelson
follow the prophet
I know the church is led by a prophet

How about during class?
How about on this forum?

Lets just do a quick search for prophet on this forum;

Prophet - 59649
Leaders - 48003
Nelson - 6550
Monson - 11842
Born Again - 19706
Baptism of Fire - 4359

Obviously this is pretty poor data science right here and it'd take a bit of time to sort through a refine the searches to exclude certain things(the phrase leader can be a conversation about many things other than Church leaders, prophet can be used in many contexts), but come on, NELSON has more results that Baptism of Fire? "Prophet" has 5 times the results as Born Again?
Tell me it isn't taboo at this point to talk about the Baptism of Fire from the pulpit now days. It's literally a red flag that leaders look out for at this point(But actually it is).

Our little children chant FOLLOW THE PROPHET over and over and over. I felt sick to my stomach when I taught primary. Like bro, 5-6 times in a row every week.
My sister knows hardly anything of the gospel. Co-habitates with a guy, doesn't go to church, doesn't read scriptures, constantly complains that God doesn't answer her prayers, complains about how the Church treats gays, but LORD HELP YOU if you say something that contradicts the prophet. She suddenly becomes a zealous Nelsonite the moment you suggest something might not be revelation.
Pray tell, how do people with no Spiritual experiences, no desire to live the gospel have such an attachment to the prophet? BECAUSE IT'S TAUGHT MORE THAN ANY TOPIC.

Do you have a clue how many investigators I lost because they didn't understand why ALL of the testimonies and lessons she happened to hear were about Joseph Smith or this American named Monson? They'd show up for 2-3 weeks and be confused at how little they hear about Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

Seriously, I can't. If you aren't willing to admit that it's discussed far less than "follow the prophet", then I really can't discuss anything with you anymore.

Your making this more than it is and over-reacting.

King Benjamin never used the phrases

Baptism of Fire
Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost
Born Again
Born of God

in his initial sermon that caused the people to experience conversion but ironically he did say this:

Mosiah 3:13 And the Lord God hath sent his holy prophets among all the children of men, to declare these things to every kindred, nation, and tongue, that thereby whosoever should believe that Christ should come, the same might receive remission of their sins, and rejoice with exceedingly great joy, even as though he had already come among them.

15 And many signs, and wonders, and types, and shadows showed he unto them, concerning his coming; and also holy prophets spake unto them concerning his coming; and yet they hardened their hearts, and understood not that the law of Moses availeth nothing except it were through the atonement of his blood.

He understood the principle and purpose of how people are really motivated to come unto Christ and wasn't fixated on teaching that his people should have an event as a way to try and influence them into that experience.

The funny thing about the scriptures I share is that they mean and portray precisely what I’m saying they mean.

You share a scripture that says “God sent Holy Prophets “ and take it to mean “Follow the Prophet”.

The beautiful thing is I don’t have to look at things at different angles to make it conform with my beliefs, I can accept it as is. It’s beautiful when you realize you’ve shed a little more unbelief and I look forward to shedding more.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 12:28 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 12:08 am

Mosiah 3:13 And the Lord God hath sent his holy prophets among all the children of men, to declare these things to every kindred, nation, and tongue, that thereby whosoever should believe that Christ should come, the same might receive remission of their sins, and rejoice with exceedingly great joy, even as though he had already come among them.

Tell me when you find one that says

Mosiah 3:X And the Lord God hath sent his holy prophets among all the children of men, to declare these things to every kindred, nation, and tongue, that thereby whosoever should believe that Christ should come follow the prophet the same might receive remission of their sins, and rejoice with exceedingly great joy, even as though he had already come among them.

cause that's the predominant message i get from church members.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:58 pm

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:47 pm

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:15 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 10:10 pm

I glossed over it because my answer to you included the fact that there will still be priesthood callings(like disciples, I fully expect callings and responsibilities and leadership). My friend, I'm waiting for you to expound further.

(Also the fruits of those disciples are quite different from the fruits we see from any single soul on earth since Joseph Smith)

It is beyond responsibilities, callings and leadership. The Lord will give revelation to his prophet for his people. Look no further then the Doctrine & Covenants. How many individuals were Born of God and beyond who received countless revelations from Joseph for them specifically sometimes over and over. This included what to do with money, how to build Zion, where to go on missions, how and where to build temples, how to perform ordinances, explanations of doctrine, understanding of their standing with the Lord, and on and on and on. This is a pattern, this is a principle. The Lord will continue to do this through his prophet today, why? Because his house is a house of order. Adam was taught and blessed by messengers from God, Enoch's people learned how to establish Zion by listening to a him, Noah's people were saved by listening to him. Moses....

We have to be extremely careful at separating and labeling individual salvation because of Jesus Christ and the importance of moving the salvation of mankind forward through an organization that contains the authorized ordinances and establishing communities approved and ordained of God by following direction from his servants. His work could not be accomplished without prophets, never has, and never will. Surely the Lord will do nothing without a prophet.

As far as hearing follow the prophet 10x more my opinion is that isn't true, you are just hearing it because it bugs you, but in reality every single talk and hymn in conference touched on an element of the Doctrine of Christ and Christ himself, every single one.

I crave zion, I would love to live in a community with people who love God and man, and as Elder Christofferson said in conference:

We ought to have the building up of Zion as our greatest object. We build up Zion in our homes, wards, branches, and stakes through unity, godliness, and charity.

What can we do to prepare now for that day? We can prepare ourselves as a people; we can gather the Lord’s covenant people; and we can help redeem the promise of salvation “made to the fathers,” our ancestors. All of this must occur in some substantial measure before the Lord comes again.

We need direction as a whole to for this to happen, and that direction will need to come from the prophet. Individual salvation and sanctification, different story.

So let me ask you a question. You've read the Book of Mormon I'm guessing more than a handful of times. Youve read the warnings issued to the people living in the last days. Youve read the words of many Prophets in the book of Mormon pleading for the gentiles who receive these things to repent. Do you truly believe that none of these warnings or calls to repentance are for us as a Church? Can you honestly do a self assessment of where we stand today and say, "nope, those messages are for the other churches, not for us." I'm serious, does it not even cross your mind at all that it could be us in 2 Nephi 28 that Nephi is talking about when he says "Wo unto him that is at ease IN zion, yea wo into him that crieth all is well!" Has it ever even crossed your mind? Even a little bit? Seriously, just what if 2 Nephi 28 is all about us? Isn't it worth at least turning to God and asking, "am I guilty of these things? Are we as a church guilty of these things?" Does it really hurt to ask? I assure you many of the people here you are arguing with have asked these things, and maybe, just maybe you should consider that they may have recieved answers to their prayers that we are indeed guilty of many of the things the Book of Mormon warns us of.

Do I think that there are members of the church that are guilty of these things and need repentance? Yes. Do I think that those who lead the church are aware of this? Yes. If you don't just listen to conference, President Nelsons main message was repentance. If only we would hearken to a prophets voice we might actually start to establish Zion, experience deep conversion, get access to power in our priesthood, and receive some additional revelations and scripture as a whole.

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 8:44 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:58 pm

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:47 pm

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:15 pm

It is beyond responsibilities, callings and leadership. The Lord will give revelation to his prophet for his people. Look no further then the Doctrine & Covenants. How many individuals were Born of God and beyond who received countless revelations from Joseph for them specifically sometimes over and over. This included what to do with money, how to build Zion, where to go on missions, how and where to build temples, how to perform ordinances, explanations of doctrine, understanding of their standing with the Lord, and on and on and on. This is a pattern, this is a principle. The Lord will continue to do this through his prophet today, why? Because his house is a house of order. Adam was taught and blessed by messengers from God, Enoch's people learned how to establish Zion by listening to a him, Noah's people were saved by listening to him. Moses....

We have to be extremely careful at separating and labeling individual salvation because of Jesus Christ and the importance of moving the salvation of mankind forward through an organization that contains the authorized ordinances and establishing communities approved and ordained of God by following direction from his servants. His work could not be accomplished without prophets, never has, and never will. Surely the Lord will do nothing without a prophet.

As far as hearing follow the prophet 10x more my opinion is that isn't true, you are just hearing it because it bugs you, but in reality every single talk and hymn in conference touched on an element of the Doctrine of Christ and Christ himself, every single one.

I crave zion, I would love to live in a community with people who love God and man, and as Elder Christofferson said in conference:



We need direction as a whole to for this to happen, and that direction will need to come from the prophet. Individual salvation and sanctification, different story.

So let me ask you a question. You've read the Book of Mormon I'm guessing more than a handful of times. Youve read the warnings issued to the people living in the last days. Youve read the words of many Prophets in the book of Mormon pleading for the gentiles who receive these things to repent. Do you truly believe that none of these warnings or calls to repentance are for us as a Church? Can you honestly do a self assessment of where we stand today and say, "nope, those messages are for the other churches, not for us." I'm serious, does it not even cross your mind at all that it could be us in 2 Nephi 28 that Nephi is talking about when he says "Wo unto him that is at ease IN zion, yea wo into him that crieth all is well!" Has it ever even crossed your mind? Even a little bit? Seriously, just what if 2 Nephi 28 is all about us? Isn't it worth at least turning to God and asking, "am I guilty of these things? Are we as a church guilty of these things?" Does it really hurt to ask? I assure you many of the people here you are arguing with have asked these things, and maybe, just maybe you should consider that they may have recieved answers to their prayers that we are indeed guilty of many of the things the Book of Mormon warns us of.

Do I think that there are members of the church that are guilty of these things and need repentance? Yes. Do I think that those who lead the church are aware of this? Yes. If you don't just listen to conference, President Nelsons main message was repentance. If only we would hearken to a prophets voice we might actually start to establish Zion, experience deep conversion, get access to power in our priesthood, and receive some additional revelations and scripture as a whole.

But the warnings and cries of repentance are never for the WHOLE church? Just for certain individuals?

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:47 pm

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:15 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 10:10 pm

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 9:30 pm No one has addressed why they called more apostles in 4th Nephi. What was the purpose? If people have the spirit why?

Also people seem to have conveniently glossed over this scripture:

3 Nephi 28:

34 And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

One wo for not hearkening to the words of whom he hath chosen. It does not get any clearer than this in terms of a divine purpose for prophets. You can not get around this principle folks. You will ultimately be faced with either believing these men or not, and according to 3rd Nephi those who wouldn’t have believed whom he called would not be led to salvation as President Benson and others declare with boldness and truth.

I glossed over it because my answer to you included the fact that there will still be priesthood callings(like disciples, I fully expect callings and responsibilities and leadership). My friend, I'm waiting for you to expound further.

(Also the fruits of those disciples are quite different from the fruits we see from any single soul on earth since Joseph Smith)

It is beyond responsibilities, callings and leadership. The Lord will give revelation to his prophet for his people. Look no further then the Doctrine & Covenants. How many individuals were Born of God and beyond who received countless revelations from Joseph for them specifically sometimes over and over. This included what to do with money, how to build Zion, where to go on missions, how and where to build temples, how to perform ordinances, explanations of doctrine, understanding of their standing with the Lord, and on and on and on. This is a pattern, this is a principle. The Lord will continue to do this through his prophet today, why? Because his house is a house of order. Adam was taught and blessed by messengers from God, Enoch's people learned how to establish Zion by listening to a him, Noah's people were saved by listening to him. Moses....

We have to be extremely careful at separating and labeling individual salvation because of Jesus Christ and the importance of moving the salvation of mankind forward through an organization that contains the authorized ordinances and establishing communities approved and ordained of God by following direction from his servants. His work could not be accomplished without prophets, never has, and never will. Surely the Lord will do nothing without a prophet.

As far as hearing follow the prophet 10x more my opinion is that isn't true, you are just hearing it because it bugs you, but in reality every single talk and hymn in conference touched on an element of the Doctrine of Christ and Christ himself, every single one.

I crave zion, I would love to live in a community with people who love God and man, and as Elder Christofferson said in conference:

We ought to have the building up of Zion as our greatest object. We build up Zion in our homes, wards, branches, and stakes through unity, godliness, and charity.

What can we do to prepare now for that day? We can prepare ourselves as a people; we can gather the Lord’s covenant people; and we can help redeem the promise of salvation “made to the fathers,” our ancestors. All of this must occur in some substantial measure before the Lord comes again.

We need direction as a whole to for this to happen, and that direction will need to come from the prophet. Individual salvation and sanctification, different story.

So let me ask you a question. You've read the Book of Mormon I'm guessing more than a handful of times. Youve read the warnings issued to the people living in the last days. Youve read the words of many Prophets in the book of Mormon pleading for the gentiles who receive these things to repent. Do you truly believe that none of these warnings or calls to repentance are for us as a Church? Can you honestly do a self assessment of where we stand today and say, "nope, those messages are for the other churches, not for us." I'm serious, does it not even cross your mind at all that it could be us in 2 Nephi 28 that Nephi is talking about when he says "Wo unto him that is at ease IN zion, yea wo into him that crieth all is well!" Has it ever even crossed your mind? Even a little bit? Seriously, just what if 2 Nephi 28 is all about us? Isn't it worth at least turning to God and asking, "am I guilty of these things? Are we as a church guilty of these things?" Does it really hurt to ask? I assure you many of the people here you are arguing with have asked these things, and maybe, just maybe you should consider that they may have recieved answers to their prayers that we are indeed guilty of many of the things the Book of Mormon warns us of.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 9:03 am

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 8:44 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:58 pm

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:47 pm

So let me ask you a question. You've read the Book of Mormon I'm guessing more than a handful of times. Youve read the warnings issued to the people living in the last days. Youve read the words of many Prophets in the book of Mormon pleading for the gentiles who receive these things to repent. Do you truly believe that none of these warnings or calls to repentance are for us as a Church? Can you honestly do a self assessment of where we stand today and say, "nope, those messages are for the other churches, not for us." I'm serious, does it not even cross your mind at all that it could be us in 2 Nephi 28 that Nephi is talking about when he says "Wo unto him that is at ease IN zion, yea wo into him that crieth all is well!" Has it ever even crossed your mind? Even a little bit? Seriously, just what if 2 Nephi 28 is all about us? Isn't it worth at least turning to God and asking, "am I guilty of these things? Are we as a church guilty of these things?" Does it really hurt to ask? I assure you many of the people here you are arguing with have asked these things, and maybe, just maybe you should consider that they may have recieved answers to their prayers that we are indeed guilty of many of the things the Book of Mormon warns us of.

Do I think that there are members of the church that are guilty of these things and need repentance? Yes. Do I think that those who lead the church are aware of this? Yes. If you don't just listen to conference, President Nelsons main message was repentance. If only we would hearken to a prophets voice we might actually start to establish Zion, experience deep conversion, get access to power in our priesthood, and receive some additional revelations and scripture as a whole.

But the warnings and cries of repentance are never for the WHOLE church? Just for certain individuals?

Do we have the sealed plates? Have we established zion?

Are there still many many saints striving with all their heart for these things? Are the leaders honest in heart, full of Charity and speaking on behalf of the lord? Does the church still have the authority the keys and the vehicle for the fullness of the gospel and it’s blessings?

I choose to have hope and faith and sustain and support the leaders that this church will prepare the world for the Lord’s return, rather than rail on perceived weakness, create division, and sit around and wait for something else all the while crying that we need a servant to set the church in order. How about we all just do what the leaders are asking. REPENT!

drtanner wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 9:03 am

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 8:44 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:58 pm

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:47 pm

So let me ask you a question. You've read the Book of Mormon I'm guessing more than a handful of times. Youve read the warnings issued to the people living in the last days. Youve read the words of many Prophets in the book of Mormon pleading for the gentiles who receive these things to repent. Do you truly believe that none of these warnings or calls to repentance are for us as a Church? Can you honestly do a self assessment of where we stand today and say, "nope, those messages are for the other churches, not for us." I'm serious, does it not even cross your mind at all that it could be us in 2 Nephi 28 that Nephi is talking about when he says "Wo unto him that is at ease IN zion, yea wo into him that crieth all is well!" Has it ever even crossed your mind? Even a little bit? Seriously, just what if 2 Nephi 28 is all about us? Isn't it worth at least turning to God and asking, "am I guilty of these things? Are we as a church guilty of these things?" Does it really hurt to ask? I assure you many of the people here you are arguing with have asked these things, and maybe, just maybe you should consider that they may have recieved answers to their prayers that we are indeed guilty of many of the things the Book of Mormon warns us of.

Do I think that there are members of the church that are guilty of these things and need repentance? Yes. Do I think that those who lead the church are aware of this? Yes. If you don't just listen to conference, President Nelsons main message was repentance. If only we would hearken to a prophets voice we might actually start to establish Zion, experience deep conversion, get access to power in our priesthood, and receive some additional revelations and scripture as a whole.

But the warnings and cries of repentance are never for the WHOLE church? Just for certain individuals?

Do we have the sealed plates? Have we established zion?

Are there still many many saints striving with all their heart for these things? Are the leaders honest in heart, full of Charity and speaking on behalf of the lord? Does the church still have the authority the keys and the vehicle for the fullness of the gospel and it’s blessings?

I choose to have hope and faith and sustain and support the leaders that this church will prepare the world for the Lord’s return, rather than rail on perceived weakness, create division, and sit around and wait for something else all the while crying that we need a servant to set the church in order. How about we all just do what the leaders are asking. REPENT!

I AM wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 10:45 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 9:03 am

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 8:44 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:58 pm

Do I think that there are members of the church that are guilty of these things and need repentance? Yes. Do I think that those who lead the church are aware of this? Yes. If you don't just listen to conference, President Nelsons main message was repentance. If only we would hearken to a prophets voice we might actually start to establish Zion, experience deep conversion, get access to power in our priesthood, and receive some additional revelations and scripture as a whole.

But the warnings and cries of repentance are never for the WHOLE church? Just for certain individuals?

Do we have the sealed plates? Have we established zion?

Are there still many many saints striving with all their heart for these things? Are the leaders honest in heart, full of Charity and speaking on behalf of the lord? Does the church still have the authority the keys and the vehicle for the fullness of the gospel and it’s blessings?

I choose to have hope and faith and sustain and support the leaders that this church will prepare the world for the Lord’s return, rather than rail on perceived weakness, create division, and sit around and wait for something else all the while crying that we need a servant to set the church in order. How about we all just do what the leaders are asking. REPENT!

-------------
you know, you are a piece of work.
DO YOU EVEN READ THE SCRIPTURES !
NO ! I didn't think so.

topcat wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 11:02 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 9:03 am

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 8:44 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:58 pm

Do I think that there are members of the church that are guilty of these things and need repentance? Yes. Do I think that those who lead the church are aware of this? Yes. If you don't just listen to conference, President Nelsons main message was repentance. If only we would hearken to a prophets voice we might actually start to establish Zion, experience deep conversion, get access to power in our priesthood, and receive some additional revelations and scripture as a whole.

But the warnings and cries of repentance are never for the WHOLE church? Just for certain individuals?

Do we have the sealed plates? Have we established zion?

Are there still many many saints striving with all their heart for these things? Are the leaders honest in heart, full of Charity and speaking on behalf of the lord? Does the church still have the authority the keys and the vehicle for the fullness of the gospel and it’s blessings?

I choose to have hope and faith and sustain and support the leaders that this church will prepare the world for the Lord’s return, rather than rail on perceived weakness, create division, and sit around and wait for something else all the while crying that we need a servant to set the church in order. How about we all just do what the leaders are asking. REPENT!

Did you answer the challenge above about whether the warnings to the Gentiles in the Book of Mormon, esp in the latter chapters of 2nd Nephi, refer specifically to the Mormon Gentiles?

Which warnings apply to the Mormons?

Would love to hear your exegesis of that question.