LDS Freedom Forum

abijah wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 5:07 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 4:30 pmYep, things like produce, vegetables, gardens, etc. and being industrious with our hands to support ourselves and help others

Yeah well we do that anyway. During harvest season in my stake we sacrifice multiple Saturdays in the Church vineyards in which we raise grapes for Church stores. This is some of the most fertile soil in California, and the Church owns loads of it.

Yeah they own a lot more in corporate equity I know, and I don’t care. Despite Thinker’s ideas, the Church is not here to try and resolve world hunger.

not freaking malls, condos or high-rise office buildings

LOL what’s wrong with malls, condos and high-rise buildings? They make wealth - wealth which brings bread to family tables, healthcare for loved ones and businesses that provide jobs. What a hippie comment.

to make money

Oh the horror.

flex financial muscle or impress the world.

Nothing wrong with that. For example that was always Israel’s destiny according to Isaiah.

It's 'hippie' to question a church constructing a multi-billion dollar mall complete with condos and stores that would make Beverly Hills, CA green with envy?

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 4:18 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 10:04 am

I AM wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 9:51 am what religion (in it's right mind) that claims to be led by God.
would - first, build a 4 billion dollar mall ?
and second, a mall where only the rich can shop,
and that would have the prophet and apostles celebrate it's opening ribbon cutting !

Yes - with wealthy members full of pride, and so many rich people in S.L.C., this mall is only for the rich and Worldly.
Helping to build Babylon.

What would you rather have been built? What would you rather the Church have done to revitalize downtown, and thus protect one of there most important assets?

Why not demolish what was there, and create a beautiful park/garden... a veritable Garden of Eden.
I think that would have enhanced the Temple Square area.

Perhaps a homeless shelter

It’s either the mall or the gay crap people seem to get offended by.

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 4:04 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 10:04 am

I AM wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 9:51 am what religion (in it's right mind) that claims to be led by God.
would - first, build a 4 billion dollar mall ?
and second, a mall where only the rich can shop,
and that would have the prophet and apostles celebrate it's opening ribbon cutting !

Yes - with wealthy members full of pride, and so many rich people in S.L.C., this mall is only for the rich and Worldly.
Helping to build Babylon.

What would you rather have been built? What would you rather the Church have done to revitalize downtown, and thus protect one of there most important assets?

Absolutely nothing! Why is it a church's duty to try and revitalize a section of a city??? Look, the church is a mega-wealthy real estate corporation with big business in mind first and foremost - that is why it built City Creek but it has to try and sell it to the members as necessary to protect the area around temple square. The church is also currently doing the same thing to the Mesa, AZ temple complex but on a smaller scale - nothing has even been mentioned to the membership about that and it is going to cost in excess of a billion. Absolutely disgusting.

Dude peoples cars were getting broken into going to Mesa Temple. Ghetto. Needs a facelift around it.

Joseph Smith was all in to building communities. If he had the finances of the church these days I bet there would be many ventures he would engage in.

Sometimes I believe the only good money can do is build things like that. Money will not solve the problem of poverty. You could give a man all the money in the world and it would never help him. Money can do nothing to change hearts and minds.

Has there been any explanation by the church to justify the building of City Creek? It seems as if it was such a blatant misuse of church money they who control the use of such money could have recognized it too. They seem like some pretty sharp people.

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 4:02 pm

LadyT wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 9:59 am

I AM wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 9:51 am what religion (in it's right mind) that claims to be led by God.
would - first, build a 4 billion dollar mall ?
and second, a mall where only the rich can shop,
and that would have the prophet and apostles celebrate it's opening ribbon cutting !

Yes - with wealthy members full of pride, and so many rich people in S.L.C., this mall is only for the rich and Worldly.

How is it for the rich only? I shop there and I am far from being rich. It's a mall like all other malls.

$500 for a gym bag at The Gym, $1,000 for a necklace at Tiffany's and $5,000 at Porsche for a design? You call that middle class shopping? The absurd costs for merchandise only make City Creek even more repugnant and to be loathed and avoided.

I went to claires, h&m, gap and forever 21. The prices are the same as the stores at south towne. It's a mall. They have all sorts of stores.

Ferrisbueller wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 6:02 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 4:04 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 10:04 am

I AM wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 9:51 am what religion (in it's right mind) that claims to be led by God.
would - first, build a 4 billion dollar mall ?
and second, a mall where only the rich can shop,
and that would have the prophet and apostles celebrate it's opening ribbon cutting !

Yes - with wealthy members full of pride, and so many rich people in S.L.C., this mall is only for the rich and Worldly.
Helping to build Babylon.

What would you rather have been built? What would you rather the Church have done to revitalize downtown, and thus protect one of there most important assets?

Absolutely nothing! Why is it a church's duty to try and revitalize a section of a city??? Look, the church is a mega-wealthy real estate corporation with big business in mind first and foremost - that is why it built City Creek but it has to try and sell it to the members as necessary to protect the area around temple square. The church is also currently doing the same thing to the Mesa, AZ temple complex but on a smaller scale - nothing has even been mentioned to the membership about that and it is going to cost in excess of a billion. Absolutely disgusting.

Dude peoples cars were getting broken into going to Mesa Temple. Ghetto. Needs a facelift around it.

That's for law enforcement and the city to deal with. And if members' cars were being broken into, why has the church not implemented security measures??? Is it cheaper to spend a billion to make it a business complex instead of paying security personnel?

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 10:04 am

I AM wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 9:51 am what religion (in it's right mind) that claims to be led by God.
would - first, build a 4 billion dollar mall ?
and second, a mall where only the rich can shop,
and that would have the prophet and apostles celebrate it's opening ribbon cutting !

Yes - with wealthy members full of pride, and so many rich people in S.L.C., this mall is only for the rich and Worldly.
Helping to build Babylon.

What would you rather have been built? What would you rather the Church have done to revitalize downtown, and thus protect one of there most important assets?

You're telling me a giant park or gardens with grass, trees, playgrounds, flowers, water features, etc. wouldn't have achieved the alleged same desired effect of defeating urban blight and the homeless? Think about that for a moment... defeating the homeless... yep, that's exactly what Christ would want to do so no one in tattered clothing with no place to live looking for help bothered him on his way into his mall so he can drop a grand on a new Tiffany's necklace for one of his many wives.

City Crick was built for one and only one reason-
To irritate Flagg.

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 7:09 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 10:04 am

I AM wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 9:51 am what religion (in it's right mind) that claims to be led by God.
would - first, build a 4 billion dollar mall ?
and second, a mall where only the rich can shop,
and that would have the prophet and apostles celebrate it's opening ribbon cutting !

Yes - with wealthy members full of pride, and so many rich people in S.L.C., this mall is only for the rich and Worldly.
Helping to build Babylon.

What would you rather have been built? What would you rather the Church have done to revitalize downtown, and thus protect one of there most important assets?

You're telling me a giant park or gardens with grass, trees, playgrounds, flowers, water features, etc. wouldn't have achieved the alleged same desired effect of defeating urban blight and the homeless? Think about that for a moment... defeating the homeless... yep, that's exactly what Christ would want to do so no one in tattered clothing with no place to live looking for help bothered him on his way into his mall so he can drop a grand on a new Tiffany's necklace for one of his many wives.

It would have been another place for bums and squaters. The Church is trying to make sure its downtown does not become a San Francisco. And yes the Church does help the homeless in the community but some people don't want to change or want help. These people deficate and curse and steal from others. That is why they didnt build a park.

I AM wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 9:51 am what religion (in it's right mind) that claims to be led by God.
would - first, build a 4 billion dollar mall ?
and second, a mall where only the rich can shop,
and that would have the prophet and apostles celebrate it's opening ribbon cutting !

Yes - with wealthy members full of pride, and so many rich people in S.L.C., this mall is only for the rich and Worldly.
Helping to build Babylon.

Oh is it $4 billion now? Pretty amazing how the cost of the thing has escalated over the years on this forum.

Sorry, I was intimately involved there. This is just a plain falsehood.

Phantom wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 7:37 pm

I AM wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 9:51 am what religion (in it's right mind) that claims to be led by God.
would - first, build a 4 billion dollar mall ?
and second, a mall where only the rich can shop,
and that would have the prophet and apostles celebrate it's opening ribbon cutting !

Yes - with wealthy members full of pride, and so many rich people in S.L.C., this mall is only for the rich and Worldly.
Helping to build Babylon.

Oh is it $4 billion now? Pretty amazing how the cost of the thing has escalated over the years on this forum.

Sorry, I was intimately involved there. This is just a plain falsehood.

Facts don't really matter when it comes to a good old church bashing session.

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 4:39 pm Lest we forget, I think God made his feelings well known 20 years ago as the church was really starting to get in bed with Babylon...

path.jpg

Really Flagg? Using the Salt Lake Tribune as a source.

Once again, I was there. That "tornado" did NOTHING and isn't exactly placed right on that graphic.

shadow wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 7:20 pm City Crick was built for one and only one reason-
To irritate Flagg.

I think it was built to seperate the wheat from the tares.

shadow wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 7:20 pm City Crick was built for one and only one reason-
To irritate Flagg.

Mission accomplished then.

LadyT wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 9:59 am

I AM wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 9:51 am what religion (in it's right mind) that claims to be led by God.
would - first, build a 4 billion dollar mall ?
and second, a mall where only the rich can shop,
and that would have the prophet and apostles celebrate it's opening ribbon cutting !

Yes - with wealthy members full of pride, and so many rich people in S.L.C., this mall is only for the rich and Worldly.

How is it for the rich only? I shop there and I am far from being rich. It's a mall like all other malls.

-----------
that figures - and you're probably just like every other member.

just take a look at all the stores in the mall,
and in fact most malls, but especially City Creek.
all full of things you need - right ? WRONG.
more like ALL FULL OF THINGS THAT ARE ABSOLUTELY UNNECESSARY !

I guess you haven't been around much.

Do you know what it is to not know how
in the world you're going to feed your family next week.
NO - I'm sure you do not.

Have you ever seen very old grandmothers in the street - that have to stand in traffic trying to sell their vegetables just to try to make a little money to eat. NO.

Have you seen a 6 year old, alone in the middle of a busy city trying to sell
a few roses to get money to give to his mother for food. NO.

WAKE UP !

COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS

If you woke up this morning with more health than illness...
you are more blessed than the one million
who will not survive this week.

If you have never experienced the danger of battle,
the loneliness of imprisonment, the agony of torture,
or the pangs of starvation...
you are ahead of 500 million people in the world.

If you can attend a church or synagogue without
fear of harassment, arrest, torture, or death...
you are more blessed than three million people
in the world.

If you have food in the refrigerator, clothes on your back,
a roof overhead, and a place to sleep,
you are richer than 75% of the world.

If you have money in the bank, in your wallet,
and spare change in a dish someplace...
you are among the top 8% of the world's wealthy.

If your parents are still alive and still married...
you are very rare, even in the United States.

If you hold up your head with a smile on your face
and are truly thankful... you are blessed
because the majority can, but most do not.

If you can hold someone's hand, hug them
or even touch them on the shoulder...you are blessed
because you can offer a healing touch.

If you can read this message, you just recieved
a double blessing in that someone was thinking of you,
and furthermore, you are blessed than over two billion people
in the world that cannot read at all.

Have a good day, COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS,
and pass this along to remind everyone else
just how blessed we all are.

shadow wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 7:39 pm

Phantom wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 7:37 pm

I AM wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 9:51 am what religion (in it's right mind) that claims to be led by God.
would - first, build a 4 billion dollar mall ?
and second, a mall where only the rich can shop,
and that would have the prophet and apostles celebrate it's opening ribbon cutting !

Yes - with wealthy members full of pride, and so many rich people in S.L.C., this mall is only for the rich and Worldly.
Helping to build Babylon.

Oh is it $4 billion now? Pretty amazing how the cost of the thing has escalated over the years on this forum.

Sorry, I was intimately involved there. This is just a plain falsehood.

Facts don't really matter when it comes to a good old church bashing session.

---------------
actually that's true,
facts DON'T REALLY MATTER",
because whether or not it's 1 billion or 5, it's still extreme.
(I'm sure the church did everything possible to hide the actual cost)

`

http://www.mormonwookiee.com/2012/03/52 ... enter.html

unfortunately church authorities might have been adamant believers of trickle down effect stuff which should be false from the telestial view of the world according to bom.

trickle down effect myth
https://search.yahoo.co.jp/search?ei=UT ... %20%20myth

"17 For behold, the Lord had blessed them so long with the riches of the world that they had not been stirred up to anger, to wars, nor to bloodshed; therefore they began to set their hearts upon their riches; yea, they began to seek to get gain that they might be lifted up one above another; therefore they began to commit secret murders, and to rob and to plunder, that they might get gain.
"
(helaman 6)

rather, ideally speaking, melchizedek priesthood leaders should be expected like being worthy of melchizedek and his people.

"33. And now, Melchizedek was a priest of this order; therefore he obtained peace in Salem, and was called the Prince of peace.

34. And his people wrought righteousness, and obtained heaven, and sought for the city of Enoch which God had before taken, separating it from the earth, having reserved it unto the latter days, or the end of the world;

35. And hath said, and sworn with an oath, that the heavens and the earth should come together; and the sons of God should be tried so as by fire.

36. And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the King of peace.

37. And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest, and the keeper of the storehouse of God;

38. Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.

39. Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

40. And it came to pass, that God blessed Abram, and gave unto him riches, and honor, and lands for an everlasting possession; according to the covenant which he had made, and according to the blessing wherewith Melchizedek had blessed him.
"
(genesis 14 inspired version)
http://www.centerplace.org/hs/iv2kjv/default.htm

says tithes for the poor, not money making scheme, gain-oriented...

I haven’t been to SLC in many years but now I’m interested in a visit just to see City Creek!

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 10:04 am

I AM wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 9:51 am what religion (in it's right mind) that claims to be led by God.
would - first, build a 4 billion dollar mall ?
and second, a mall where only the rich can shop,
and that would have the prophet and apostles celebrate it's opening ribbon cutting !

Yes - with wealthy members full of pride, and so many rich people in S.L.C., this mall is only for the rich and Worldly.
Helping to build Babylon.

What would you rather have been built? What would you rather the Church have done to revitalize downtown, and thus protect one of there most important assets?

------------
well, I guess you could try shelter, and food for the homeless. - for mothers with children.

And I was unaware that Christ, or a church that claims to be led by Him, would consider this to be "one of (His) there most important assets ".

I AM wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 11:40 pm

LadyT wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 9:59 am

I AM wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 9:51 am what religion (in it's right mind) that claims to be led by God.
would - first, build a 4 billion dollar mall ?
and second, a mall where only the rich can shop,
and that would have the prophet and apostles celebrate it's opening ribbon cutting !

Yes - with wealthy members full of pride, and so many rich people in S.L.C., this mall is only for the rich and Worldly.

How is it for the rich only? I shop there and I am far from being rich. It's a mall like all other malls.

-----------
that figures - and you're probably just like every other member.

just take a look at all the stores in the mall,
and in fact most malls, but especially City Creek.
all full of things you need - right ? WRONG.
more like ALL FULL OF THINGS THAT ARE ABSOLUTELY UNNECESSARY !

I guess you haven't been around much.

Do you know what it is to not know how
in the world you're going to feed your family next week.
NO - I'm sure you do not.

Have you ever seen very old grandmothers in the street - that have to stand in traffic trying to sell their vegetables just to try to make a little money to eat. NO.

Have you seen a 6 year old, alone in the middle of a busy city trying to sell
a few roses to get money to give to his mother for food. NO.

WAKE UP !

I haven't. My parents did. Mom had it better than dad. The stories they tell hurt. My dad joined the navy and learned skills to change his life. He also joined the church then. Dad worked long hard hours to make sure his kids had what he didn't. I owe all that I am to that man.

There are things that you need at a mall. Clothing and shoes. I am not saying go buy super expensive stuff. But we all need things.

This Church more than any other organization is not all about giving something for nothing. They expect you to get back on your feet they expect you to take care of yourself. This is what Christ wants. It is better to create jobs and improve an economy than just give people stuff. This mall is a blessing to downtown SLC.

Flagg your bias is showing again.

I guess some here just insist on seeing the smaller picture. Giving it all away to the poor and destitute can be a noble cause but doesn't do anything to show the Lord you're a wise and profitable servant. It doesn't multiply the talents with which He has blessed you with. I've seen a some scriptures cited. Here's the scripture that I think this is all more applicable to, the one I was getting at in my OP as found in Matthew 25:

14 ¶ For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.

19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

A park and garden, peaceful and beautiful as that could be, doesn't multiply those talents. Building up homeless shelters alone, doesn't multiply talents, (though the church has recently donated generously to that cause as well). Putting it to the exchangers via real estate deals, stock markets, etc, can and does multiply more often than not when done wisely and judiciously. A mall and all that went with it provided helped to provide financial independence and security for many more via industrious means than the money could have done had it all just been given away to feed and shelter the homeless.

Also, concerning the homeless in our day vs the homeless in Christ's day....in time of Christ, the homeless were often castaways put on the outskirts of society because of leprosy, and various other diseases or disorders that people had a stigma about. They didn't have the hard drugs and all that we have now that so much of today's homeless populations struggle with. Many and most of today's homeless willingly reject a lot of resources made available to them in pursuit of their next fix, be it drugs or alcohol. The only charity they care to get is what will get them high or drunk again. This is very unfortunate. That's not to say efforts shouldn't still be made to help them, particularly those actually willing to accept help in overcoming their addictions and willing to do their part to improve their circumstances, and each of them probably have their own story for what made them want to get into drugs or alcohol to begin with, but those who aren't willing to accept some personal accountability aren't going to benefit from any amount of charity. So yeah....the Church has always been more about focusing more of its resources on helping those willing to help themselves, those who use their agency more wisely, than those who don't.