LDS Freedom Forum

thestock wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 10:36 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 10:13 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 9:20 am

Mark wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 8:32 am

The only divisive thing about Pres Nelsons talk is that it is dividing the wheat from the tares. A Prophets role is to call a wicked world to repentance. That's his job! This reminds me of the scripture in Matthew where the Lord said "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." That sounds so divisive! We can't remake the gospel into some touchy-feely dumbed down version just so unrepentant people can feel good about themselves. If that's what someone is looking for they are in the wrong church. There are plenty of other faiths that are capitulating to this kind of justification.

1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.
3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
(1 Nephi 16:1-3)

Thanks Mark. So let me summarize. In a world of 7 billion people....the 6 or 7 million (estimated) members of the Mormon church that live everything "correctly" out of about 14 million members are the wheat....and the other 6.993 billion or so people in the world are the tares. Do I have that right? So basically......the righteous mormons get in, and everyone else is wicked. Sorry....I dont drink the kool-aid that hard. Christ is more powerful than that. We need to open our frickin eyes. There are good people everywhere. There are bad people everywhere. Christ gave the be-attitudes. Go read them. Those are the people who will enter Heaven, inherit the Earth etc. I know many many many many people who are of other faiths who are righteous and described by Christ. I know many many many many temple recommend holding Mormons who are pieces of crap. No better than Zoramite scum.

I was born into the church, and gained my testimony along the way....so I have some defense against some of the hard things about our church. But personally, I feel for the man in Nelson's story......if someone from a small church that believed in magic rocks, plates that dont exist and were never actually seen by witnesses except "with spiritual eyes", and all of the shaming and family isolation that takes place if some family members dont drink the kool-aid as much as others.....I'd be in the same boat as that guy. I wouldnt be lining up to join this church either....when there are literally hundreds of other Christian churches that have righteous people who also claim the ordinances and blessings of Christ's true church.

The wheat and the tares sifting is world wide, not singular to this church. The sifting is happening to everyone regardless of what groups they identify with. There are indeed very good people in the world who are true to and foster Christ-like atributes in their life. Do you believe that the many great people outside of this church will deny baptism from Christ himself into His fold if presented? Because someday, these people will all be approached with the opportunity to make covenants. They will likely accept, and no it wont be into the “mormon” church. The “mormon” church will end and the kingdom of God will take over. All will be required to make covenants within that kingdom. On the flip side, do you really think the bad temple goers and jack members of this church will even show up at the door? I dont believe they will. If it wasnt required to stand for judgement, pretty sure they would rather be hidden under a rock.

If were opening our eyes here then we need to open them wide and see how narrow and restrictive we typically view things when in reality, were just in a bubble and everything will change soon enough. For those who think they are better or whatever else will be humbled for sure. Those who try and are good and feel inadequate will be lifted up.

This church is a place to make those covenants before the kingdom of God is here. The church is not the owner of anything as it produces nothing. It is merely a tool for the time being.

We agree on this. Like I said, I am not criticizing President Nelson, I think he is a fantastic man. Going back to his talk being "divisive"....in light of what you and I have both argued.....I would like to see a Prophet of the Lord say something to the following:

"There is great evil out there and there is great good. The evidences of both are obvious. Make a choice now which side you will stand on. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a charge to lead the establishment of Zion and the building up of the Kingdom. We invite all of the ends of the Earth to come make covenants with Jesus Christ and repent of all ungodliness in your lives. But we don't extend this invitation just to those members of this church. We advocate true principles and righteous living wherever they may be found. I once had a friend who asked me to help him be with his wife after death. This desire of his heart is sincere, and true. This speaks to the type of individual he is. I invited him to join the church, but he wasnt ready at this time. I trust that the Lord will touch the experiences and lives of all of his children at the exact time He needs to so that they will be ready to make covenants with Him. My friend was not willing to join our church at this time, and perhaps never in this life. I trust that the Lord will make room for him in the Spirit Paradise to continue learning and growing until such time that his lot in the eternities can be cast, along with all of his loved ones, in the Mansions of the Father. That is my prayer for all of us....and for all the ends of the Earth that hear to righteousness and true principles, regardless of their faith, creeds, or affiliations in this life. Amen."

Amen.

Spot on, spot on! We should be careful about passing judgment on others who in reality probably will go on to fully accept Christ in the next life. It's not our lot to cast judgment on folks just when we cant see clearly enough the full plan of salvation for the work in the spirit world.

Cc07 wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 7:35 am
I think when Nelson said he questioned the efficacy of the work done for the dead who had the chance to live it here that he is referring to something we may not be considering. I’m not sure that the afterlife is easier for one to change or accept the gospel than it was for anyone else to accept and live it here in mortality. That man said it was too hard to do now but believes it will be easier or done for him after death? Not really that simple. It will likely be harder! Those who chose to live and accept here when given the chance are better off. All vicarious works are for is to allow an opportunity to receive AFTER you do the work of being in a place to qualify. Its simply an invitation with the mercy of having your work done by a mortal, the real work of living and accepting is done on an individual level.
We have been taught that having a body makes it easier than not having a body and that the same spirit that embodies you here is the same that will embody you there. If he didnt accept it here, he wont accept it there either unless he does the exact same thing it would have taken him here to do and change but without his physical body to aid him. That seems fair enough to me if not tilted towards those still in mortality due to them having a body to help.

Thanks for this. It is great.

To anyone who has family who has left the path who thinks that Joseph Smith's "comforting doctrine" will save them, I'd ask you this one question. If you had the power to force your family member to repent and accept the ordinances, would you use that power?

We weep for those who have left the path, but how do we know they haven't used their agency to decide their own fate? Agency is the major thing this war was started over in the first place. We need to keep agency in mind when we talk about this topic. God isn't going to force someone into the Celestial Kingdom just to spare you from having to weep for them.

Beyond that, consider the following points. Here's the quote:
"Thankfully, I am not this man’s judge. But I do question the efficacy of proxy temple work for a man who had the opportunity to be baptized in this life—to be ordained to the priesthood and receive temple blessings while here in mortality—but who made the conscious decision to reject that course."

1. President Nelson is saying that Jesus Christ will judge each case.
2. President Nelson questions whether proxy work will be efficacious for those who reject it in mortality.
3. President Nelson does not say, "God has told me that all people who don't accept an invitation to receive these ordinances will not be allowed to accept them hereafter."
4. The words "opportunity" and "conscious decision" are extremely important.

Neither you nor I knows for certain what a sufficient "opportunity" to produce a "conscious decision" will look like for each individual, in the eyes of the Lord. Hence, "Thankfully, I am not this man's judge."

President Nelson is not making an official declaration of doctrine here that all who decline the invitation during their carnal state of mortality before they die are doomed to parish in every instance. President Nelson is, however, saying that we ought to repent and accept the ordinances because there are no guarantees that we'll accept them hereafter if we refuse them here. And that if we had full "opportunity" to make an efficacious "conscious decision" while here, we don't know that we'll get another chance while there (keeping in mind that God is the one who knows what a true full "opportunity" really looks like, and He will judge the opportunity and the decision). Mercy cannot rob justice. And neither mercy nor justice can force a person to the Celestial Kingdom if they don't want to live the gospel.

What President Nelson is trying to get across is true doctrine. It might not be framed all rosy red for everyone, but I'm glad for that. We shouldn't feel all is well in Zion. We need to bring urgency to everything we do in The Church of Jesus Christ. After all, time is running out.

Read the book of Jacob in the BOM. He had to cry repentance even though it hurt the wives and children’s feelings.

All this is proof positive that President Nelson is a prophet. It's hard for many to hear plainly spoken truths.

Phantom wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 7:41 pm All this is proof positive that President Nelson is a prophet. It's hard for many to hear plainly spoken truths.

"I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions." — Joseph Smith, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, p. 520.

h_p wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 8:41 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 8:25 am I’m not sure that the afterlife is easier for one to change or accept the gospel than it was for anyone else to accept and live it here in mortality. That man said it was too hard to do now but believes it will be easier or done for him after death? Not really that simple. It will likely be harder! Those who chose to live and accept here when given the chance are better off. All vicarious works are for is to allow an opportunity to receive AFTER you do the work of being in a place to qualify. Its simply an invitation with the mercy of having your work done by a mortal, the real work of living and accepting is done on an individual level.

And yet how often do we teach the exact same thing the friend was feeling? When people say we should seek to have our calling and election made sure, or to see the Lord, or that you can be perfect in this life, they're practically run out of the church. We teach softer things because deep down, we all feel the same way the friend does. We plan to receive those blessings in the next life because it's too hard in this one.

I'm not dissing President Nelson here. I get where he's coming from. But I just think the vast majority of us are more like his friend than we are like Nelson. We have no room to criticize. A little more empathy for people who don't feel like they'll ever measure up can go a long way.

His job is to build God's Kingdom, not built gentle consensus in mediocrity. He is not here to help people feel "Safe" in their sins nor in their apathy. He is here to call people to repentance. He did. If someone gets offended at his call, then he probably did a good job of it.

When he was a heart surgeon you think he told more than one of his patients to modify their diets and exercise if they wanted to live longer?

President Benson:

“As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. The honest in heart heed his words but the unrighteous either ignore the prophet or fight him. When the prophet points out the sins of the world, the worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Many a prophet has been killed or cast out. As we come closer to the Lord’s second coming you can expect that as the people of the world become more wicked, the prophet will be less popular with them.“

It's always interesting to me at conference to hear the speakers and listen to the Spirit testify of truth. But, as always is the case, there are times when I feel no ratifying power of the Holy Ghost in a speech or in something said. Immediately I get the feeling it is just this person's opinion but still means well. This particular talk was one of those instances where I felt our prophet was going off on a limb of opinion on several instances. Generally speaking, his talk was meant to drive people to repent and change before time runs out, but the way it comes across is like a piano out of key.

I will still support and sustain him though, he's a great great man and prophet of our God.

Rand wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 10:28 pm His job is to build God's Kingdom, not built gentle consensus in mediocrity. He is not here to help people feel "Safe" in their sins nor in their apathy. He is here to call people to repentance. He did. If someone gets offended at his call, then he probably did a good job of it.

Have you sacrificed everything for God yet? Hurry up or you're going to hell.

Phantom wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 7:41 pm All this is proof positive that President Nelson is a prophet. It's hard for many to hear plainly spoken truths.

Does that mean Donald Trump is a prophet?

drtanner wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 11:37 pm President Benson:

“As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. The honest in heart heed his words but the unrighteous either ignore the prophet or fight him. When the prophet points out the sins of the world, the worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Many a prophet has been killed or cast out. As we come closer to the Lord’s second coming you can expect that as the people of the world become more wicked, the prophet will be less popular with them.“

So a less popular prophet chops off an hour from church, eliminates half of the busy work of the church callings, reverses a controversial policy from 3 years ago, gets rid of the boy scout program, and is generally on the path of making decisions to appease a lot of people at the expense of established doctrines and worship? Is that the sign of a less popular prophet?

thestock wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 7:18 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 11:37 pm President Benson:

“As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. The honest in heart heed his words but the unrighteous either ignore the prophet or fight him. When the prophet points out the sins of the world, the worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Many a prophet has been killed or cast out. As we come closer to the Lord’s second coming you can expect that as the people of the world become more wicked, the prophet will be less popular with them.“

So a less popular prophet chops off an hour from church, eliminates half of the busy work of the church callings, reverses a controversial policy from 3 years ago, gets rid of the boy scout program, and is generally on the path of making decisions to appease a lot of people at the expense of established doctrines and worship? Is that the sign of a less popular prophet?

If I was measuring from your perspective and that of the OP I would say yes??

That being said I also don’t see anyone lining up to join or re-join the church from these changes and without true conversion most likely many will “go away” after future changes, talks they don’t agree with, or pressure from the world.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 7:20 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 7:18 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 11:37 pm President Benson:

“As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. The honest in heart heed his words but the unrighteous either ignore the prophet or fight him. When the prophet points out the sins of the world, the worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Many a prophet has been killed or cast out. As we come closer to the Lord’s second coming you can expect that as the people of the world become more wicked, the prophet will be less popular with them.“

So a less popular prophet chops off an hour from church, eliminates half of the busy work of the church callings, reverses a controversial policy from 3 years ago, gets rid of the boy scout program, and is generally on the path of making decisions to appease a lot of people at the expense of established doctrines and worship? Is that the sign of a less popular prophet?

If I was measuring from your perspective and that of the OP I would say yes??

That being said I also don’t see anyone lining up to join or re-join the church from these changes and without true conversion most likely many will “go away” after future changes, talks they don’t agree with, or pressure from the world.

Just to be clear nothing made me happier than eliminating the third hour and having my time spent in callings chopped in half.....so I am a big Nelson fan thank you very much!

Juliet wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 10:23 am It sounds like some of the controversial feelings were the things President Nelson said after this quote. But the premise of everything he said was based on this quote:

"Listen to these words spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ to His prophet: 'All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise … are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.'4"

Everything he said, is based on the premise of this quote, which I don't find this quote disagreeable.

There is nothing wrong with this statement. The important line in this statement is " in and after the resurrection from the dead" The resurrection is the final judgment from GOD, so once that happens its all over you get what you get, you are what you are. The morning of the first resurrection means that you made it to the Celestial Kingdom. If you are resurrected with a Terrestrial Body then you aren't going to the Celestial Kingdom.

Just to be clear nothing made me happier than eliminating the third hour and having my time spent in callings chopped in half.....so I am a big Nelson fan thank you very much!

I agree!

At the same time, not everyone is willing to let go of spending time in meetings. Our Bishopric decided that Ward Council Meetings should be every Sunday before Sacrament Meeting.

So glad my husband was released as SS President. It's a 126 mile round trip to and from our Ward building every Sunday & another such trip when attending the Temple.

buffalo_girl wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 8:27 am

Just to be clear nothing made me happier than eliminating the third hour and having my time spent in callings chopped in half.....so I am a big Nelson fan thank you very much!

I agree!

At the same time, not everyone is willing to let go of spending time in meetings. Our Bishopric decided that Ward Council Meetings should be every Sunday before Sacrament Meeting.

So glad my husband was released as SS President. It's a 126 mile round trip to and from our Ward building every Sunday & another such trip when attending the Temple.

I have learned in my life that some people are just wired differently. I work for a guy who gets up at 4am and is in the office before 6am. He is the last one to leave, staying as late as 7 or 8pm sometimes. He doesnt take lunch, doesnt go work out.... This is in a business that has typical 9 to 5 hours....and there is literally no reason to be here beyond that (usually) and no real work to be done except during those hours. So I've observed that my boss just simply LIKES BEING HERE. He's not actually working.....he just likes being at work for some reason.

I've seen the same from some church leaders. They call meetings and then you attend the meeting and there is no agenda, no organization, and the actual "meeting" only starts after 45 minutes of pleasantries and socializing.....at which point the "meeting" turns to gossip about some ward members or a half-assed attempt to talk about things that dont really matter or are not urgent and important. Not everyone is this way....I genuinely appreciate those leaders who prepare well, stick to a time frame for meetings, and have clear objectives. But for those who don't, I simply inform them I am not willing to meet unless an agenda is sent in advance and a time frame is strictly observed and adhered to and that assignments that can be completed in advance of the meeting be done so. The response I get is either A) they dont change and I stop attending meetings and they dont care, or, more usually B) you can help drive the meetings to be more productive and help lift up those leaders to do more than just put in face time at church and expect others to do the same.

h_p wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 7:02 am

Rand wrote: ↑April 10th, 2019, 10:28 pm His job is to build God's Kingdom, not built gentle consensus in mediocrity. He is not here to help people feel "Safe" in their sins nor in their apathy. He is here to call people to repentance. He did. If someone gets offended at his call, then he probably did a good job of it.

Have you sacrificed everything for God yet? Hurry up or you're going to hell.

Really? Is that the way you take it? The protestant notion of heaven and hell is still lingering in you.

If you want to honor God, worship the Savior, and prepare for his coming, you, and we all need to be and do better. If that is discouraging, as Pres. Nelson said, the adversary is influencing your thinking. It is a rallying cry. It is a good old prophetic call to repentance. If that call is a problem, be cautious, because it was those who despised the call to repentance that truly were on the wrong side of the equation.
To answer your question, I am seeking to do so. But, because I am not perfect at it, I just keep trying to "repent", and do better.

Rand wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 10:08 am Really? Is that the way you take it? The protestant notion of heaven and hell is still lingering in you.

If you want to honor God, worship the Savior, and prepare for his coming, you, and we all need to be and do better. If that is discouraging, as Pres. Nelson said, the adversary is influencing your thinking. It is a rallying cry. It is a good old prophetic call to repentance. If that call is a problem, be cautious, because it was those who despised the call to repentance that truly were on the wrong side of the equation.
To answer your question, I am seeking to do so. But, because I am not perfect at it, I just keep trying to "repent", and do better.

smh. Nevermind.

thestock wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 9:06 am

buffalo_girl wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 8:27 am

Just to be clear nothing made me happier than eliminating the third hour and having my time spent in callings chopped in half.....so I am a big Nelson fan thank you very much!

I agree!

At the same time, not everyone is willing to let go of spending time in meetings. Our Bishopric decided that Ward Council Meetings should be every Sunday before Sacrament Meeting.

So glad my husband was released as SS President. It's a 126 mile round trip to and from our Ward building every Sunday & another such trip when attending the Temple.

I have learned in my life that some people are just wired differently. I work for a guy who gets up at 4am and is in the office before 6am. He is the last one to leave, staying as late as 7 or 8pm sometimes. He doesnt take lunch, doesnt go work out.... This is in a business that has typical 9 to 5 hours....and there is literally no reason to be here beyond that (usually) and no real work to be done except during those hours. So I've observed that my boss just simply LIKES BEING HERE. He's not actually working.....he just likes being at work for some reason.

I've seen the same from some church leaders. They call meetings and then you attend the meeting and there is no agenda, no organization, and the actual "meeting" only starts after 45 minutes of pleasantries and socializing.....at which point the "meeting" turns to gossip about some ward members or a half-assed attempt to talk about things that dont really matter or are not urgent and important. Not everyone is this way....I genuinely appreciate those leaders who prepare well, stick to a time frame for meetings, and have clear objectives. But for those who don't, I simply inform them I am not willing to meet unless an agenda is sent in advance and a time frame is strictly observed and adhered to and that assignments that can be completed in advance of the meeting be done so. The response I get is either A) they dont change and I stop attending meetings and they dont care, or, more usually B) you can help drive the meetings to be more productive and help lift up those leaders to do more than just put in face time at church and expect others to do the same.

Maybe the boss spends so much time at work to be away from his wife. Its more common than not.
If it makes no sense, then thats the first clue that there is something amiss.

I think its good on you that you expect meetings to have a real purpose and to be organized. Otherwise yeah, perhaps theres nothing of real worth or importance and best to not waste your time.
I hate to hear that councils gossip about other members...seriously irritating. Mormons seem to gossip so much all under the illusion that they are helping them....while the person they are talking about never recieves anything.

I loved his talk. Its a warning, which isn't always the most pleasant of things.

I hate to hear that councils gossip about other members...seriously irritating. Mormons seem to gossip so much all under the illusion that they are helping them....while the person they are talking about never recieves anything.

You are right... It hurt my 'convert' husband terribly to hear about the needs of so many families who were investigating or inactive who were assisted in various way, but he could not convince anyone in the Priesthood to even call our adult son suffering with depression, suicide ideation & attempts, and the lifelong emotional scarring caused by a neighbor's sexual abuse of him beginning at age 5. Our son lives in the Ward! A near fatal ATV accident resulting in massive brain trauma seems to have helped put his existence on the Ward map, but it was only when the kindness of the only member of the Bishopric not on Christmas vacation requested our son to speak on the topic of Prayer, December 30 that the Ward members were able to grasp the spiritual worth of our son. I sat on the stand with him. Many in the congregation were in tears, some sobbing, and quite a few rushing up to speak to him at the end of the meeting.

Many of us are hard-hearted. I hope and pray all of us can do better in how we treat one another.

I understood that President Nelson had long known the man who procrastinated his spiritual advancement in the Church. I believe he was correct in calling that specific man to repentance.

However, too often there is summary judgment of individual cases and consequent shunning based upon an imagined narrative.

Aprhys wrote: ↑April 9th, 2019, 3:54 pm I was just wondering what other peoples opinions of Pres. Nelsons talk is. For me, it was the most divisive talk I have ever heard. My wife began bawling and has written off the church for the time being. You see, we come from a very different family. We are a mixed family and most of our children are adopted except one. All of them were exposed to drugs at very young ages. As they have gotten older some have left the church completely. Some live close to the gospel. Some suffer from depression. Yada Yada Yada. I wonder if any of our leaders have or come from homes that are totally screwed up? Not every member comes from a home where the first thing you see I a picture of the First Presidency hanging on the wall. Many of our families worry more about making it through the day much less to the Celestial Kingdom. Has he ever had to watch a child lay in a coma from a drug overdose? Has he every had to raise a child as a single parent, doing everything he can to raise them correctly yet watch as their birth father gets drunk with them on his weekends even though they are underage? Whatever happened to the sealing power of thee Priesthood being the power to literally pull your children from the depths of hell? Or are we going to replace that doctrine also because it doesn't fit? My apologies for the rant but I have nowhere else to vent. Maybe he should spend more time with families who are more concerned with puttingg food on the table rather than speding money on a security training facility so he and his cohorts can travel in safety on our tithing. If all I can do as a prent isn't good enough because our entire salvation is going to be based upon 70-80 years of experience then maybe it's time for me to find a gospel of kindness and redemption rather than division and damnation. Or maybe I will take my tithing and take my kids fishing. As you can tell this talk really disappointed me. Any other thoughts?

--------------------------------------
I think I can understand where you're coming from.

I truly believe we have not repented as a church and people,
and have "unite themselves to that great and abominable church "

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51144&p=922448&hili ... ch#p922448

2 Nephi 6

12 And blessed are the Gentiles, they of whom the prophet has written; for behold, if it so be that they shall repent and fight not against Zion, and do not unite themselves to that great and abominable church, they shall be saved; for the Lord God will fulfil his covenants which he has made unto his children; and for this cause the prophet has written these things.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50399&p=905647&hili ... mb#p905647

"Mormons generally believe that they are the Church of the Lamb of God referred to and all other religions are the church of the devil, but is this correct? "


""The Lord made a curious statement to Nephi which has never been correctly explained to my knowledge:"

“Behold, there are save two churches only; one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the Devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.” (I Nephi 14:10-11) ....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and we HAVE NOT REPENTED and are still under condemnation
for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=50596&p=914479&hil ... on#p914479

Ezra T. Benson
has said that we were under condemnation
for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.
“If the early Saints were rebuked for treating
the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less
condemnation if we do the same?”
(in Conference Report, Oct. 1986, 4;
or Ensign, Nov. 1986, 4–5).

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—

--------------------------------------------------------------
Doctrine and Covenants
Section 101:
6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

D&C 105:
2 "Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer."

For this the Lord said that Zion would have to "wait for a little season"
D&C 105:
9 Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should
wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion—