Pres. Nelsons Gen Conf. talk

[rimbauer.peter]

Here is one quote from LDS.org

He stressed that we can be together with our families in the next life only if we receive sacred ordinances in the temple and keep the covenants we make there.

In this life, meaning, the whole 7000 years of the mortal existence of this earth among God's creations. We all have 7000 years, not just here as mortals but as spirit beings in Paradise or Hell, and eventually as resurrected beings during the Millennium.
Next life means the "upcoming" eternity.

[buffalo_girl]

Well...I can't judge President Nelson, either.

I lived with a non-member husband and 'kids off the rails' many years.

Other than Our Savior, I'm not sure anyone who has had life's mortal course challenged with anything other than simple death can comprehend the degrees of literal Hell some of the rest of us endure as the result of self-destructive decisions made by those we love and worry over. Sometimes we make our own self-destructive decisions.

In the 'old days' a doctrine prevailed in the Church that if you had simply been more valiant in the pre-existence your mortal life would manifest itself in greater perfection, i.e., good career, authority in all aspects of your life, beautiful wife, faithful husband, good kids, lovely home with lots of bedrooms, etc.

So...if your mortal life is chaotic, conflicted, worrisome, subject to drought, cataclysmic weather, kids run amok, a neighbor who sexually abuses your young child leading to that child's suicide as a young adult, house is a mess, laid off from your job, you are poor, etc., etc., you simply were less valiant in the pre-existence.

That doctrine doesn't even allow an opportunity to time-travel back into the pre-existence so as to REPENT before you were born.

I don't know about that being an eternal truth. It certainly isn't a doctrine of "how can I help you with your burden", is it? We could drop the 'Ministering' program, right? Save more time for our non-Celestial family members.

Our task is to 'FORGIVE' those who offend us - even those in 'high places'. We may have misinterpreted their meaning and intent, maybe not. Doesn't matter. The most important task is to be worthy of ongoing personal direction from the Holy Spirit due to our confidence in and love for the LORD.

[h_p]

There are people who are running down the covenant path. And there are others who are hanging onto it over a cliff by their fingernails. It's nearly impossible to speak to both groups without stomping on those fingers, or coming off as pandering to the milk-drinkers. I'm just glad I don't have to speak in GC, I know I'd do a terrible job, as I often do. I know I've offended my wife and family so many times talking about doctrines and mysteries, when they're just searching for relief.

All I know is that Jesus is a LOT more forgiving of our weakness and unbelief than we are willing to admit. And He doesn't give up on us, even those whose souls are shattered on the hard truths of the gospel.

[Cheetos]

The truth of the matter is that we all must enter into the saving ordinances of the gospel to be saved. It's hard, with our doctrine and our many perceptions, that we so often can get things wrong. This life isn't our only opportunity to find the covenant path. That is extended into the spirit world and millennium. But, let it be known, if we have not chosen God and his covenant path by the end of the millennium reign of Christ then awful will be our fate. Very few will not repent and turn to God. God is merciful and his work is great. It will indeed bring all the lost souls who will accept Christ back to him to live together as families in his kingdom.

[Thinker]

The talk is very divisive. I've been tracking the General Conference talk receptions on different online communities and Nelsons talk bothered a lot of people. Its not hard to see why. I dont want to be critical of Nelson, that is not what I am about to do here. What I will do is summarize WHAT THE TALK SOUNDS LIKE TO PEOPLE in simplistic terms:

1) The only way to ever be with your family again in heaven is to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest and for those loved ones you wish to be with after this life to live it as well.

2) It breaks Nelson's heart when he sees people not follow this doctrine or live up to every single facet of our brand of Mormonism because even though he appreciates what they bring to the table, the good husbands, fathers, mothers, wives, daughters, sons that they are, and all the good they do for society......its all for naught if they dont repent and live our brand of Mormonism in every way.

3) There was once a guy who's wife died and he wasnt religious but asked Nelson for help so he could be with his wife again after death. Nelson basically told him "live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest....its the only way." That guy said "I dont have time to serve in your church for 10+ hours a week, I dont want to pay 10% of my income to the church, and I dont really believe all of the silliness if your religion but feel free to do your temple ordinances for me after I die."

4) Nelson is glad he is not the judge of the above man because in his opinion a vicarious work for the man above is worthless if he had the opportunities to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest during his life but he rejected that opportunity.

5) Time is running out for everyone who doesnt live our brand of Mormonism so they better repent or risk losing their family forever.

Pretty depressing talk to be honest.

Good summary, but one more:
On his daughter’s death bed, he focused on her activity in th CHURCH, and how all her kids stayed in the CHURCH, as if THAT is the only reason he loved her. And remember how often members are told to follow the prophet. Shameful.

No other talk felt so ignorant of others’ challenges as Nelson’s talk. He spoke lies - hurtful lies - NOT truth. Christ would never have been so dogmatically judgemental - but the Pharisees would have. Christ would not have focused so much on the letter of the law, while ignoring the spirit and his own issues. Maybe partly, besides the above; it was also difficult to take seriously someone who is involved in a child-sex abuse lawsuit.

As mentioned, you aren’t the only one who was disappointed by the talk... (I don’t agree with all, but most of the following “plea”: )
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormonthe ... ilies.html

[MMbelieve]

His talk about repentance was everything! It offers hope and healing for everyone! He didn’t teach anything new that is not in the scriptures. God loves us but no unclean thing can enter the kingdom of heaven. Not too long ago my husband and I were having a conversation and be in essence was saying how it’s so frustrating to think of those who can live their lives with no consequence and then have people do their work for them and essentially make it. Why does he have to live a higher standard basically. That it doesn’t seem fair. I told him I didn’t agree with that and if just like Pres. Nelson said we’ve been given the opportunity to hear the true message of Christ’s atonement and gospel we can’t just automatically make it to the highest degree if we aren’t living the commandments we’ve promised to make. This is nothing new. But with the attitude of the entire population of everything is given for free-, I deserve a trophy- you deserve a trophy. I can see how people would get offended for hearing truth. We can and all should do better!

I think when Nelson said he questioned the efficacy of the work done for the dead who had the chance to live it here that he is referring to something we may not be considering. I’m not sure that the afterlife is easier for one to change or accept the gospel than it was for anyone else to accept and live it here in mortality. That man said it was too hard to do now but believes it will be easier or done for him after death? Not really that simple. It will likely be harder! Those who chose to live and accept here when given the chance are better off. All vicarious works are for is to allow an opportunity to receive AFTER you do the work of being in a place to qualify. Its simply an invitation with the mercy of having your work done by a mortal, the real work of living and accepting is done on an individual level.
We have been taught that having a body makes it easier than not having a body and that the same spirit that embodies you here is the same that will embody you there. If he didnt accept it here, he wont accept it there either unless he does the exact same thing it would have taken him here to do and change but without his physical body to aid him. That seems fair enough to me if not tilted towards those still in mortality due to them having a body to help.

[Mark]

The talk is very divisive. I've been tracking the General Conference talk receptions on different online communities and Nelsons talk bothered a lot of people. Its not hard to see why. I dont want to be critical of Nelson, that is not what I am about to do here. What I will do is summarize WHAT THE TALK SOUNDS LIKE TO PEOPLE in simplistic terms:

1) The only way to ever be with your family again in heaven is to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest and for those loved ones you wish to be with after this life to live it as well.

2) It breaks Nelson's heart when he sees people not follow this doctrine or live up to every single facet of our brand of Mormonism because even though he appreciates what they bring to the table, the good husbands, fathers, mothers, wives, daughters, sons that they are, and all the good they do for society......its all for naught if they dont repent and live our brand of Mormonism in every way.

3) There was once a guy who's wife died and he wasnt religious but asked Nelson for help so he could be with his wife again after death. Nelson basically told him "live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest....its the only way." That guy said "I dont have time to serve in your church for 10+ hours a week, I dont want to pay 10% of my income to the church, and I dont really believe all of the silliness if your religion but feel free to do your temple ordinances for me after I die."

4) Nelson is glad he is not the judge of the above man because in his opinion a vicarious work for the man above is worthless if he had the opportunities to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest during his life but he rejected that opportunity.

5) Time is running out for everyone who doesnt live our brand of Mormonism so they better repent or risk losing their family forever.

Pretty depressing talk to be honest.

The only divisive thing about Pres Nelsons talk is that it is dividing the wheat from the tares. A Prophets role is to call a wicked world to repentance. That's his job! This reminds me of the scripture in Matthew where the Lord said "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." That sounds so divisive! We can't remake the gospel into some touchy-feely dumbed down version just so unrepentant people can feel good about themselves. If that's what someone is looking for they are in the wrong church. There are plenty of other faiths that are capitulating to this kind of justification.

1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.
3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
(1 Nephi 16:1-3)

[MMbelieve]

The talk is very divisive. I've been tracking the General Conference talk receptions on different online communities and Nelsons talk bothered a lot of people. Its not hard to see why. I dont want to be critical of Nelson, that is not what I am about to do here. What I will do is summarize WHAT THE TALK SOUNDS LIKE TO PEOPLE in simplistic terms:

1) The only way to ever be with your family again in heaven is to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest and for those loved ones you wish to be with after this life to live it as well.

2) It breaks Nelson's heart when he sees people not follow this doctrine or live up to every single facet of our brand of Mormonism because even though he appreciates what they bring to the table, the good husbands, fathers, mothers, wives, daughters, sons that they are, and all the good they do for society......its all for naught if they dont repent and live our brand of Mormonism in every way.

3) There was once a guy who's wife died and he wasnt religious but asked Nelson for help so he could be with his wife again after death. Nelson basically told him "live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest....its the only way." That guy said "I dont have time to serve in your church for 10+ hours a week, I dont want to pay 10% of my income to the church, and I dont really believe all of the silliness if your religion but feel free to do your temple ordinances for me after I die."

4) Nelson is glad he is not the judge of the above man because in his opinion a vicarious work for the man above is worthless if he had the opportunities to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest during his life but he rejected that opportunity.

5) Time is running out for everyone who doesnt live our brand of Mormonism so they better repent or risk losing their family forever.

Pretty depressing talk to be honest.

Good summary, but one more:
On his daughter’s death bed, he focused on her activity in th CHURCH, and how all her kids stayed in the CHURCH, as if THAT is the only reason he loved her. And remember how often members are told to follow the prophet. Shameful.

No other talk felt so ignorant of others’ challenges as Nelson’s talk. He spoke lies - hurtful lies - NOT truth. Christ would never have been so dogmatically judgemental - but the Pharisees would have. Christ would not have focused so much on the letter of the law, while ignoring the spirit and his own issues. Maybe partly, besides the above; it was also difficult to take seriously someone who is involved in a child-sex abuse lawsuit.

As mentioned, you aren’t the only one who was disappointed by the talk... (I don’t agree with all, but most of the following “plea”: )
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormonthe ... ilies.html

And when your on your death bed do you want to hear that you did well in your duties and served a good life? Keeping a family in the church (faith) is a grand accomplishment! Something she should have felt good about and having her father tell her as such is a fathers love. He loved her because she is his own flesh and blood and I dont doubt for a second that he would have taken her place if he could so she could still be alive. When he talked about his daughter he showed great love and it was very sincere.

Crazy how so many people find fault with others due to their own projections of their own problems.

[h_p]

I’m not sure that the afterlife is easier for one to change or accept the gospel than it was for anyone else to accept and live it here in mortality. That man said it was too hard to do now but believes it will be easier or done for him after death? Not really that simple. It will likely be harder! Those who chose to live and accept here when given the chance are better off. All vicarious works are for is to allow an opportunity to receive AFTER you do the work of being in a place to qualify. Its simply an invitation with the mercy of having your work done by a mortal, the real work of living and accepting is done on an individual level.

And yet how often do we teach the exact same thing the friend was feeling? When people say we should seek to have our calling and election made sure, or to see the Lord, or that you can be perfect in this life, they're practically run out of the church. We teach softer things because deep down, we all feel the same way the friend does. We plan to receive those blessings in the next life because it's too hard in this one.

I'm not dissing President Nelson here. I get where he's coming from. But I just think the vast majority of us are more like his friend than we are like Nelson. We have no room to criticize. A little more empathy for people who don't feel like they'll ever measure up can go a long way.

[MMbelieve]

The talk is very divisive. I've been tracking the General Conference talk receptions on different online communities and Nelsons talk bothered a lot of people. Its not hard to see why. I dont want to be critical of Nelson, that is not what I am about to do here. What I will do is summarize WHAT THE TALK SOUNDS LIKE TO PEOPLE in simplistic terms:

1) The only way to ever be with your family again in heaven is to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest and for those loved ones you wish to be with after this life to live it as well.

2) It breaks Nelson's heart when he sees people not follow this doctrine or live up to every single facet of our brand of Mormonism because even though he appreciates what they bring to the table, the good husbands, fathers, mothers, wives, daughters, sons that they are, and all the good they do for society......its all for naught if they dont repent and live our brand of Mormonism in every way.

3) There was once a guy who's wife died and he wasnt religious but asked Nelson for help so he could be with his wife again after death. Nelson basically told him "live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest....its the only way." That guy said "I dont have time to serve in your church for 10+ hours a week, I dont want to pay 10% of my income to the church, and I dont really believe all of the silliness if your religion but feel free to do your temple ordinances for me after I die."

4) Nelson is glad he is not the judge of the above man because in his opinion a vicarious work for the man above is worthless if he had the opportunities to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest during his life but he rejected that opportunity.

5) Time is running out for everyone who doesnt live our brand of Mormonism so they better repent or risk losing their family forever.

Pretty depressing talk to be honest.

The only divisive thing about Pres Nelsons talk is that it is dividing the wheat from the tares.

Exactly! Its the last days and we will only see more and more of the sifting.

Take your vitamins has immense meaning. Seems most all of us need to take our figurative “vitamins”. How can we keep up if every single time the prophet or other leaders speak we spend our time having personal issue over their words rather than DOING the work we need to do. It will only get worse for those who would rather complain than take stock of their life and let some goodness in and advice help them.

[Thinker]

Follow the Prophet!
Follow the Prophet!
Follow the Prophet!
It contradicts Christ? Who cares...
Follow the Prophet!
It’s placing false gods before God? Who cares... everyone’s doing it...
Follow the Prophet!
The prophet’s involved in a child-sex-abuse lawsuit? Who cares...
Follow the Prophet!
Follow the Prophet!
Follow the Prophet!

Follow the prophet despite undeniable financial corruption.
Follow the prophet despite Utah having led the nation in mental illness.
Oh, and be sure to criticize and call names to anyone who dares NOT follow the prophet!

[MMbelieve]

I’m not sure that the afterlife is easier for one to change or accept the gospel than it was for anyone else to accept and live it here in mortality. That man said it was too hard to do now but believes it will be easier or done for him after death? Not really that simple. It will likely be harder! Those who chose to live and accept here when given the chance are better off. All vicarious works are for is to allow an opportunity to receive AFTER you do the work of being in a place to qualify. Its simply an invitation with the mercy of having your work done by a mortal, the real work of living and accepting is done on an individual level.

And yet how often do we teach the exact same thing the friend was feeling? When people say we should seek to have our calling and election made sure, or to see the Lord, or that you can be perfect in this life, they're practically run out of the church. We teach softer things because deep down, we all feel the same way the friend does. We plan to receive those blessings in the next life because it's too hard in this one.

I'm not dissing President Nelson here. I get where he's coming from. But I just think the vast majority of us are more like his friend than we are like Nelson. We have no room to criticize. A little more empathy for people who don't feel like they'll ever measure up can go a long way.

I think he has plenty of empathy. We are often encouraged are we not? There was even a talk recently about how we are not expected to be perfect but we are expected to try and to keep going. We are told that all we need to do to be properly progressing is to just be a little bit better than we were yesterday. If we are trying and doing our best to become then whats the issue? His friend refused to try, and thats the difference. All the compassion/empathy in the world wont take away an individuals choice to not even try.

We are often blinded by emotion and compassion and love (thats not a bad thing) to the real heart of a person. His friend didnt need more empathy, his friend didnt want to do it. Theres a big difference.
To all of us doing it already, all we need to do is keep going and keep trying.

[MMbelieve]

Follow the Prophet!
Follow the Prophet!
Follow the Prophet!
It contradicts Christ? Who cares...
Follow the Prophet!
It’s placing false gods before God? Who cares... everyone’s doing it...
Follow the Prophet!
The prophet’s involved in a child-sex-abuse lawsuit? Who cares...
Follow the Prophet!
Follow the Prophet!
Follow the Prophet!

Follow the prophet despite undeniable financial corruption.
Follow the prophet despite Utah having led the nation in mental illness.
Oh, and be sure to criticize and call names to anyone who dares NOT follow the prophet!

What does follow the prophet really even mean? Its rather insulting to those who have the ability to reason and think for themselves to say they blindly follow a man.
Get real with yourself, stop attacking for a moment and mocking and making fun of others.
The people I know who would be labeled as “following the prophet” are all very free and independent thinkers who follow the truth of words spoken pointing to the truth they already have in their own hearts and minds....they dont follow a man but they DO take notice of the man pointing in the right direction. Its NOT about the man is it...really?

[Gage]

So you are upset because the Prophet doesn't have children on drugs? Gotcha

[buffalo_girl]

So you are upset because the Prophet doesn't have children on drugs? Gotcha

Where am I?! Outer darkness?

[h_p]

We are often blinded by emotion and compassion and love (thats not a bad thing) to the real heart of a person. His friend didnt need more empathy, his friend didnt want to do it. Theres a big difference.
To all of us doing it already, all we need to do is keep going and keep trying.

I'm not disagreeing with you, MMBelieve. Maybe I'm mentally replacing Nelson's friend with people I'm close to who feel the same way. I really don't know anything about his friend's situation. I'm not in a position to say he simply didn't want to do it. Probably more like he felt like he couldn't. The fact that he wanted his work done for him tells me that there's a glimmer of hope there.

I know my wife came away from Nelson's talk feeling similar to Aprhys's wife. And I know she struggles between wanting to do it and feeling hopeless about it. I confess I'm the same way, but she feels it more intensely, really.

I think the best remedy to all this is to emphasize hope, and a more proper understanding of the gospel. God is very forgiving and patient, and it's His grace that gives us the power to do all the things. When we truly believe that, keeping the commandments becomes easy. I know that's worked for me, at least.

[thestock]

The talk is very divisive. I've been tracking the General Conference talk receptions on different online communities and Nelsons talk bothered a lot of people. Its not hard to see why. I dont want to be critical of Nelson, that is not what I am about to do here. What I will do is summarize WHAT THE TALK SOUNDS LIKE TO PEOPLE in simplistic terms:

1) The only way to ever be with your family again in heaven is to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest and for those loved ones you wish to be with after this life to live it as well.

2) It breaks Nelson's heart when he sees people not follow this doctrine or live up to every single facet of our brand of Mormonism because even though he appreciates what they bring to the table, the good husbands, fathers, mothers, wives, daughters, sons that they are, and all the good they do for society......its all for naught if they dont repent and live our brand of Mormonism in every way.

3) There was once a guy who's wife died and he wasnt religious but asked Nelson for help so he could be with his wife again after death. Nelson basically told him "live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest....its the only way." That guy said "I dont have time to serve in your church for 10+ hours a week, I dont want to pay 10% of my income to the church, and I dont really believe all of the silliness if your religion but feel free to do your temple ordinances for me after I die."

4) Nelson is glad he is not the judge of the above man because in his opinion a vicarious work for the man above is worthless if he had the opportunities to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest during his life but he rejected that opportunity.

5) Time is running out for everyone who doesnt live our brand of Mormonism so they better repent or risk losing their family forever.

Pretty depressing talk to be honest.

The only divisive thing about Pres Nelsons talk is that it is dividing the wheat from the tares. A Prophets role is to call a wicked world to repentance. That's his job! This reminds me of the scripture in Matthew where the Lord said "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." That sounds so divisive! We can't remake the gospel into some touchy-feely dumbed down version just so unrepentant people can feel good about themselves. If that's what someone is looking for they are in the wrong church. There are plenty of other faiths that are capitulating to this kind of justification.

1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.
3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
(1 Nephi 16:1-3)

Thanks Mark. So let me summarize. In a world of 7 billion people....the 6 or 7 million (estimated) members of the Mormon church that live everything "correctly" out of about 14 million members are the wheat....and the other 6.993 billion or so people in the world are the tares. Do I have that right? So basically......the righteous mormons get in, and everyone else is wicked. Sorry....I dont drink the kool-aid that hard. Christ is more powerful than that. We need to open our frickin eyes. There are good people everywhere. There are bad people everywhere. Christ gave the be-attitudes. Go read them. Those are the people who will enter Heaven, inherit the Earth etc. I know many many many many people who are of other faiths who are righteous and described by Christ. I know many many many many temple recommend holding Mormons who are pieces of crap. No better than Zoramite scum.

I was born into the church, and gained my testimony along the way....so I have some defense against some of the hard things about our church. But personally, I feel for the man in Nelson's story......if someone from a small church that believed in magic rocks, plates that dont exist and were never actually seen by witnesses except "with spiritual eyes", and all of the shaming and family isolation that takes place if some family members dont drink the kool-aid as much as others.....I'd be in the same boat as that guy. I wouldnt be lining up to join this church either....when there are literally hundreds of other Christian churches that have righteous people who also claim the ordinances and blessings of Christ's true church.

[setyourselffree]

The talk is very divisive. I've been tracking the General Conference talk receptions on different online communities and Nelsons talk bothered a lot of people. Its not hard to see why. I dont want to be critical of Nelson, that is not what I am about to do here. What I will do is summarize WHAT THE TALK SOUNDS LIKE TO PEOPLE in simplistic terms:

1) The only way to ever be with your family again in heaven is to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest and for those loved ones you wish to be with after this life to live it as well.

2) It breaks Nelson's heart when he sees people not follow this doctrine or live up to every single facet of our brand of Mormonism because even though he appreciates what they bring to the table, the good husbands, fathers, mothers, wives, daughters, sons that they are, and all the good they do for society......its all for naught if they dont repent and live our brand of Mormonism in every way.

3) There was once a guy who's wife died and he wasnt religious but asked Nelson for help so he could be with his wife again after death. Nelson basically told him "live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest....its the only way." That guy said "I dont have time to serve in your church for 10+ hours a week, I dont want to pay 10% of my income to the church, and I dont really believe all of the silliness if your religion but feel free to do your temple ordinances for me after I die."

4) Nelson is glad he is not the judge of the above man because in his opinion a vicarious work for the man above is worthless if he had the opportunities to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest during his life but he rejected that opportunity.

5) Time is running out for everyone who doesnt live our brand of Mormonism so they better repent or risk losing their family forever.

Pretty depressing talk to be honest.

Good summary, but one more:
On his daughter’s death bed, he focused on her activity in th CHURCH, and how all her kids stayed in the CHURCH, as if THAT is the only reason he loved her. And remember how often members are told to follow the prophet. Shameful.

No other talk felt so ignorant of others’ challenges as Nelson’s talk. He spoke lies - hurtful lies - NOT truth. Christ would never have been so dogmatically judgemental - but the Pharisees would have. Christ would not have focused so much on the letter of the law, while ignoring the spirit and his own issues. Maybe partly, besides the above; it was also difficult to take seriously someone who is involved in a child-sex abuse lawsuit.

As mentioned, you aren’t the only one who was disappointed by the talk... (I don’t agree with all, but most of the following “plea”: )
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormonthe ... ilies.html

You are lying to yourself and to others if you believe that.

[MMbelieve]

The talk is very divisive. I've been tracking the General Conference talk receptions on different online communities and Nelsons talk bothered a lot of people. Its not hard to see why. I dont want to be critical of Nelson, that is not what I am about to do here. What I will do is summarize WHAT THE TALK SOUNDS LIKE TO PEOPLE in simplistic terms:

1) The only way to ever be with your family again in heaven is to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest and for those loved ones you wish to be with after this life to live it as well.

2) It breaks Nelson's heart when he sees people not follow this doctrine or live up to every single facet of our brand of Mormonism because even though he appreciates what they bring to the table, the good husbands, fathers, mothers, wives, daughters, sons that they are, and all the good they do for society......its all for naught if they dont repent and live our brand of Mormonism in every way.

3) There was once a guy who's wife died and he wasnt religious but asked Nelson for help so he could be with his wife again after death. Nelson basically told him "live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest....its the only way." That guy said "I dont have time to serve in your church for 10+ hours a week, I dont want to pay 10% of my income to the church, and I dont really believe all of the silliness if your religion but feel free to do your temple ordinances for me after I die."

4) Nelson is glad he is not the judge of the above man because in his opinion a vicarious work for the man above is worthless if he had the opportunities to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest during his life but he rejected that opportunity.

5) Time is running out for everyone who doesnt live our brand of Mormonism so they better repent or risk losing their family forever.

Pretty depressing talk to be honest.

The only divisive thing about Pres Nelsons talk is that it is dividing the wheat from the tares. A Prophets role is to call a wicked world to repentance. That's his job! This reminds me of the scripture in Matthew where the Lord said "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." That sounds so divisive! We can't remake the gospel into some touchy-feely dumbed down version just so unrepentant people can feel good about themselves. If that's what someone is looking for they are in the wrong church. There are plenty of other faiths that are capitulating to this kind of justification.

1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.
3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
(1 Nephi 16:1-3)

Thanks Mark. So let me summarize. In a world of 7 billion people....the 6 or 7 million (estimated) members of the Mormon church that live everything "correctly" out of about 14 million members are the wheat....and the other 6.993 billion or so people in the world are the tares. Do I have that right? So basically......the righteous mormons get in, and everyone else is wicked. Sorry....I dont drink the kool-aid that hard. Christ is more powerful than that. We need to open our frickin eyes. There are good people everywhere. There are bad people everywhere. Christ gave the be-attitudes. Go read them. Those are the people who will enter Heaven, inherit the Earth etc. I know many many many many people who are of other faiths who are righteous and described by Christ. I know many many many many temple recommend holding Mormons who are pieces of crap. No better than Zoramite scum.

I was born into the church, and gained my testimony along the way....so I have some defense against some of the hard things about our church. But personally, I feel for the man in Nelson's story......if someone from a small church that believed in magic rocks, plates that dont exist and were never actually seen by witnesses except "with spiritual eyes", and all of the shaming and family isolation that takes place if some family members dont drink the kool-aid as much as others.....I'd be in the same boat as that guy. I wouldnt be lining up to join this church either....when there are literally hundreds of other Christian churches that have righteous people who also claim the ordinances and blessings of Christ's true church.

The wheat and the tares sifting is world wide, not singular to this church. The sifting is happening to everyone regardless of what groups they identify with. There are indeed very good people in the world who are true to and foster Christ-like atributes in their life. Do you believe that the many great people outside of this church will deny baptism from Christ himself into His fold if presented? Because someday, these people will all be approached with the opportunity to make covenants. They will likely accept, and no it wont be into the “mormon” church. The “mormon” church will end and the kingdom of God will take over. All will be required to make covenants within that kingdom. On the flip side, do you really think the bad temple goers and jack members of this church will even show up at the door? I dont believe they will. If it wasnt required to stand for judgement, pretty sure they would rather be hidden under a rock.

If were opening our eyes here then we need to open them wide and see how narrow and restrictive we typically view things when in reality, were just in a bubble and everything will change soon enough. For those who think they are better or whatever else will be humbled for sure. Those who try and are good and feel inadequate will be lifted up.

This church is a place to make those covenants before the kingdom of God is here. The church is not the owner of anything as it produces nothing. It is merely a tool for the time being.

[Juliet]

It sounds like some of the controversial feelings were the things President Nelson said after this quote. But the premise of everything he said was based on this quote:

"Listen to these words spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ to His prophet: 'All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise … are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.'4"

Everything he said, is based on the premise of this quote, which I don't find this quote disagreeable.

[shadow]

The talk is very divisive. I've been tracking the General Conference talk receptions on different online communities and Nelsons talk bothered a lot of people. Its not hard to see why. I dont want to be critical of Nelson, that is not what I am about to do here. What I will do is summarize WHAT THE TALK SOUNDS LIKE TO PEOPLE in simplistic terms:

1) The only way to ever be with your family again in heaven is to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest and for those loved ones you wish to be with after this life to live it as well.

2) It breaks Nelson's heart when he sees people not follow this doctrine or live up to every single facet of our brand of Mormonism because even though he appreciates what they bring to the table, the good husbands, fathers, mothers, wives, daughters, sons that they are, and all the good they do for society......its all for naught if they dont repent and live our brand of Mormonism in every way.

3) There was once a guy who's wife died and he wasnt religious but asked Nelson for help so he could be with his wife again after death. Nelson basically told him "live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest....its the only way." That guy said "I dont have time to serve in your church for 10+ hours a week, I dont want to pay 10% of my income to the church, and I dont really believe all of the silliness if your religion but feel free to do your temple ordinances for me after I die."

4) Nelson is glad he is not the judge of the above man because in his opinion a vicarious work for the man above is worthless if he had the opportunities to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest during his life but he rejected that opportunity.

5) Time is running out for everyone who doesnt live our brand of Mormonism so they better repent or risk losing their family forever.

Pretty depressing talk to be honest.

The only divisive thing about Pres Nelsons talk is that it is dividing the wheat from the tares. A Prophets role is to call a wicked world to repentance. That's his job! This reminds me of the scripture in Matthew where the Lord said "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." That sounds so divisive! We can't remake the gospel into some touchy-feely dumbed down version just so unrepentant people can feel good about themselves. If that's what someone is looking for they are in the wrong church. There are plenty of other faiths that are capitulating to this kind of justification.

1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.
3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
(1 Nephi 16:1-3)

Thanks Mark. So let me summarize. In a world of 7 billion people....the 6 or 7 million (estimated) members of the Mormon church that live everything "correctly" out of about 14 million members are the wheat....and the other 6.993 billion or so people in the world are the tares. Do I have that right? So basically......the righteous mormons get in, and everyone else is wicked. Sorry....I dont drink the kool-aid that hard. Christ is more powerful than that. We need to open our frickin eyes. There are good people everywhere. There are bad people everywhere. Christ gave the be-attitudes. Go read them. Those are the people who will enter Heaven, inherit the Earth etc. I know many many many many people who are of other faiths who are righteous and described by Christ. I know many many many many temple recommend holding Mormons who are pieces of crap. No better than Zoramite scum.

I was born into the church, and gained my testimony along the way....so I have some defense against some of the hard things about our church. But personally, I feel for the man in Nelson's story......if someone from a small church that believed in magic rocks, plates that dont exist and were never actually seen by witnesses except "with spiritual eyes", and all of the shaming and family isolation that takes place if some family members dont drink the kool-aid as much as others.....I'd be in the same boat as that guy. I wouldnt be lining up to join this church either....when there are literally hundreds of other Christian churches that have righteous people who also claim the ordinances and blessings of Christ's true church.

So you're saying Laman and Lemuel were right all along? God's ways need to be changed to meet our ways?? Any baptism will work?? Or I guess baptism is just a waste of time anyway and just a 'thing'? Any path will lead back to God?

What does the scripture mean that Mark referenced that claims straight is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it?? Where does the straight and narrow way lead? Why are there only a few that find it?

Thankfully God is merciful and extends His hand to all even after death. Elder Ballard has spoken about section 138 during October's GC. What a wonderful revelation that's especially comforting and hopeful for those who have family who have not accepted the fullness of the Gospel. A hand is still extended to them after death.
"The vision revealed more fully the depth and breadth of Heavenly Father’s plan for His children and Christ’s redeeming love and the matchless power of His Atonement." Elder Ballard

[Juliet]

The talk is very divisive. I've been tracking the General Conference talk receptions on different online communities and Nelsons talk bothered a lot of people. Its not hard to see why. I dont want to be critical of Nelson, that is not what I am about to do here. What I will do is summarize WHAT THE TALK SOUNDS LIKE TO PEOPLE in simplistic terms:

1) The only way to ever be with your family again in heaven is to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest and for those loved ones you wish to be with after this life to live it as well.

2) It breaks Nelson's heart when he sees people not follow this doctrine or live up to every single facet of our brand of Mormonism because even though he appreciates what they bring to the table, the good husbands, fathers, mothers, wives, daughters, sons that they are, and all the good they do for society......its all for naught if they dont repent and live our brand of Mormonism in every way.

3) There was once a guy who's wife died and he wasnt religious but asked Nelson for help so he could be with his wife again after death. Nelson basically told him "live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest....its the only way." That guy said "I dont have time to serve in your church for 10+ hours a week, I dont want to pay 10% of my income to the church, and I dont really believe all of the silliness if your religion but feel free to do your temple ordinances for me after I die."

4) Nelson is glad he is not the judge of the above man because in his opinion a vicarious work for the man above is worthless if he had the opportunities to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest during his life but he rejected that opportunity.

5) Time is running out for everyone who doesnt live our brand of Mormonism so they better repent or risk losing their family forever.

Pretty depressing talk to be honest.

The only divisive thing about Pres Nelsons talk is that it is dividing the wheat from the tares. A Prophets role is to call a wicked world to repentance. That's his job! This reminds me of the scripture in Matthew where the Lord said "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." That sounds so divisive! We can't remake the gospel into some touchy-feely dumbed down version just so unrepentant people can feel good about themselves. If that's what someone is looking for they are in the wrong church. There are plenty of other faiths that are capitulating to this kind of justification.

1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.
3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
(1 Nephi 16:1-3)

Thanks Mark. So let me summarize. In a world of 7 billion people....the 6 or 7 million (estimated) members of the Mormon church that live everything "correctly" out of about 14 million members are the wheat....and the other 6.993 billion or so people in the world are the tares. Do I have that right? So basically......the righteous mormons get in, and everyone else is wicked. Sorry....I dont drink the kool-aid that hard. Christ is more powerful than that. We need to open our frickin eyes. There are good people everywhere. There are bad people everywhere. Christ gave the be-attitudes. Go read them. Those are the people who will enter Heaven, inherit the Earth etc. I know many many many many people who are of other faiths who are righteous and described by Christ. I know many many many many temple recommend holding Mormons who are pieces of crap. No better than Zoramite scum.

I was born into the church, and gained my testimony along the way....so I have some defense against some of the hard things about our church. But personally, I feel for the man in Nelson's story......if someone from a small church that believed in magic rocks, plates that dont exist and were never actually seen by witnesses except "with spiritual eyes", and all of the shaming and family isolation that takes place if some family members dont drink the kool-aid as much as others.....I'd be in the same boat as that guy. I wouldnt be lining up to join this church either....when there are literally hundreds of other Christian churches that have righteous people who also claim the ordinances and blessings of Christ's true church.

My opinion is members of our church are specifically from the tribe of Ephraim and have the job of spreading the gospel.

[thestock]

The talk is very divisive. I've been tracking the General Conference talk receptions on different online communities and Nelsons talk bothered a lot of people. Its not hard to see why. I dont want to be critical of Nelson, that is not what I am about to do here. What I will do is summarize WHAT THE TALK SOUNDS LIKE TO PEOPLE in simplistic terms:

1) The only way to ever be with your family again in heaven is to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest and for those loved ones you wish to be with after this life to live it as well.

2) It breaks Nelson's heart when he sees people not follow this doctrine or live up to every single facet of our brand of Mormonism because even though he appreciates what they bring to the table, the good husbands, fathers, mothers, wives, daughters, sons that they are, and all the good they do for society......its all for naught if they dont repent and live our brand of Mormonism in every way.

3) There was once a guy who's wife died and he wasnt religious but asked Nelson for help so he could be with his wife again after death. Nelson basically told him "live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest....its the only way." That guy said "I dont have time to serve in your church for 10+ hours a week, I dont want to pay 10% of my income to the church, and I dont really believe all of the silliness if your religion but feel free to do your temple ordinances for me after I die."

4) Nelson is glad he is not the judge of the above man because in his opinion a vicarious work for the man above is worthless if he had the opportunities to live our brand of Mormonism to the fullest during his life but he rejected that opportunity.

5) Time is running out for everyone who doesnt live our brand of Mormonism so they better repent or risk losing their family forever.

Pretty depressing talk to be honest.

The only divisive thing about Pres Nelsons talk is that it is dividing the wheat from the tares. A Prophets role is to call a wicked world to repentance. That's his job! This reminds me of the scripture in Matthew where the Lord said "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." That sounds so divisive! We can't remake the gospel into some touchy-feely dumbed down version just so unrepentant people can feel good about themselves. If that's what someone is looking for they are in the wrong church. There are plenty of other faiths that are capitulating to this kind of justification.

1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.
3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
(1 Nephi 16:1-3)

Thanks Mark. So let me summarize. In a world of 7 billion people....the 6 or 7 million (estimated) members of the Mormon church that live everything "correctly" out of about 14 million members are the wheat....and the other 6.993 billion or so people in the world are the tares. Do I have that right? So basically......the righteous mormons get in, and everyone else is wicked. Sorry....I dont drink the kool-aid that hard. Christ is more powerful than that. We need to open our frickin eyes. There are good people everywhere. There are bad people everywhere. Christ gave the be-attitudes. Go read them. Those are the people who will enter Heaven, inherit the Earth etc. I know many many many many people who are of other faiths who are righteous and described by Christ. I know many many many many temple recommend holding Mormons who are pieces of crap. No better than Zoramite scum.

I was born into the church, and gained my testimony along the way....so I have some defense against some of the hard things about our church. But personally, I feel for the man in Nelson's story......if someone from a small church that believed in magic rocks, plates that dont exist and were never actually seen by witnesses except "with spiritual eyes", and all of the shaming and family isolation that takes place if some family members dont drink the kool-aid as much as others.....I'd be in the same boat as that guy. I wouldnt be lining up to join this church either....when there are literally hundreds of other Christian churches that have righteous people who also claim the ordinances and blessings of Christ's true church.

The wheat and the tares sifting is world wide, not singular to this church. The sifting is happening to everyone regardless of what groups they identify with. There are indeed very good people in the world who are true to and foster Christ-like atributes in their life. Do you believe that the many great people outside of this church will deny baptism from Christ himself into His fold if presented? Because someday, these people will all be approached with the opportunity to make covenants. They will likely accept, and no it wont be into the “mormon” church. The “mormon” church will end and the kingdom of God will take over. All will be required to make covenants within that kingdom. On the flip side, do you really think the bad temple goers and jack members of this church will even show up at the door? I dont believe they will. If it wasnt required to stand for judgement, pretty sure they would rather be hidden under a rock.

If were opening our eyes here then we need to open them wide and see how narrow and restrictive we typically view things when in reality, were just in a bubble and everything will change soon enough. For those who think they are better or whatever else will be humbled for sure. Those who try and are good and feel inadequate will be lifted up.

This church is a place to make those covenants before the kingdom of God is here. The church is not the owner of anything as it produces nothing. It is merely a tool for the time being.

We agree on this. Like I said, I am not criticizing President Nelson, I think he is a fantastic man. Going back to his talk being "divisive"....in light of what you and I have both argued.....I would like to see a Prophet of the Lord say something to the following:

"There is great evil out there and there is great good. The evidences of both are obvious. Make a choice now which side you will stand on. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a charge to lead the establishment of Zion and the building up of the Kingdom. We invite all of the ends of the Earth to come make covenants with Jesus Christ and repent of all ungodliness in your lives. But we don't extend this invitation just to those members of this church. We advocate true principles and righteous living wherever they may be found. I once had a friend who asked me to help him be with his wife after death. This desire of his heart is sincere, and true. This speaks to the type of individual he is. I invited him to join the church, but he wasnt ready at this time. I trust that the Lord will touch the experiences and lives of all of his children at the exact time He needs to so that they will be ready to make covenants with Him. My friend was not willing to join our church at this time, and perhaps never in this life. I trust that the Lord will make room for him in the Spirit Paradise to continue learning and growing until such time that his lot in the eternities can be cast, along with all of his loved ones, in the Mansions of the Father. That is my prayer for all of us....and for all the ends of the Earth that hear to righteousness and true principles, regardless of their faith, creeds, or affiliations in this life. Amen."

Amen.

[braingrunt]

The only divisive thing about Pres Nelsons talk is that it is dividing the wheat from the tares. A Prophets role is to call a wicked world to repentance. That's his job! This reminds me of the scripture in Matthew where the Lord said "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." That sounds so divisive! We can't remake the gospel into some touchy-feely dumbed down version just so unrepentant people can feel good about themselves. If that's what someone is looking for they are in the wrong church. There are plenty of other faiths that are capitulating to this kind of justification.

1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.
3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
(1 Nephi 16:1-3)

Thanks Mark. So let me summarize. In a world of 7 billion people....the 6 or 7 million (estimated) members of the Mormon church that live everything "correctly" out of about 14 million members are the wheat....and the other 6.993 billion or so people in the world are the tares. Do I have that right? So basically......the righteous mormons get in, and everyone else is wicked. Sorry....I dont drink the kool-aid that hard. Christ is more powerful than that. We need to open our frickin eyes. There are good people everywhere. There are bad people everywhere. Christ gave the be-attitudes. Go read them. Those are the people who will enter Heaven, inherit the Earth etc. I know many many many many people who are of other faiths who are righteous and described by Christ. I know many many many many temple recommend holding Mormons who are pieces of crap. No better than Zoramite scum.

I was born into the church, and gained my testimony along the way....so I have some defense against some of the hard things about our church. But personally, I feel for the man in Nelson's story......if someone from a small church that believed in magic rocks, plates that dont exist and were never actually seen by witnesses except "with spiritual eyes", and all of the shaming and family isolation that takes place if some family members dont drink the kool-aid as much as others.....I'd be in the same boat as that guy. I wouldnt be lining up to join this church either....when there are literally hundreds of other Christian churches that have righteous people who also claim the ordinances and blessings of Christ's true church.

The wheat and the tares sifting is world wide, not singular to this church. The sifting is happening to everyone regardless of what groups they identify with. There are indeed very good people in the world who are true to and foster Christ-like atributes in their life. Do you believe that the many great people outside of this church will deny baptism from Christ himself into His fold if presented? Because someday, these people will all be approached with the opportunity to make covenants. They will likely accept, and no it wont be into the “mormon” church. The “mormon” church will end and the kingdom of God will take over. All will be required to make covenants within that kingdom. On the flip side, do you really think the bad temple goers and jack members of this church will even show up at the door? I dont believe they will. If it wasnt required to stand for judgement, pretty sure they would rather be hidden under a rock.

If were opening our eyes here then we need to open them wide and see how narrow and restrictive we typically view things when in reality, were just in a bubble and everything will change soon enough. For those who think they are better or whatever else will be humbled for sure. Those who try and are good and feel inadequate will be lifted up.

This church is a place to make those covenants before the kingdom of God is here. The church is not the owner of anything as it produces nothing. It is merely a tool for the time being.

We agree on this. Like I said, I am not criticizing President Nelson, I think he is a fantastic man. Going back to his talk being "divisive"....in light of what you and I have both argued.....I would like to see a Prophet of the Lord say something to the following:

"There is great evil out there and there is great good. The evidences of both are obvious. Make a choice now which side you will stand on. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a charge to lead the establishment of Zion and the building up of the Kingdom. We invite all of the ends of the Earth to come make covenants with Jesus Christ and repent of all ungodliness in your lives. But we don't extend this invitation just to those members of this church. We advocate true principles and righteous living wherever they may be found. I once had a friend who asked me to help him be with his wife after death. This desire of his heart is sincere, and true. This speaks to the type of individual he is. I invited him to join the church, but he wasnt ready at this time. I trust that the Lord will touch the experiences and lives of all of his children at the exact time He needs to so that they will be ready to make covenants with Him. My friend was not willing to join our church at this time, and perhaps never in this life. I trust that the Lord will make room for him in the Spirit Paradise to continue learning and growing until such time that his lot in the eternities can be cast, along with all of his loved ones, in the Mansions of the Father. That is my prayer for all of us....and for all the ends of the Earth that hear to righteousness and true principles, regardless of their faith, creeds, or affiliations in this life. Amen."

Amen.

I want a testimony about finding flying fluffy bunnies in heaven. This is really important to me.

Or perhaps we ought to stick to the scriptures.

[thestock]

Thanks Mark. So let me summarize. In a world of 7 billion people....the 6 or 7 million (estimated) members of the Mormon church that live everything "correctly" out of about 14 million members are the wheat....and the other 6.993 billion or so people in the world are the tares. Do I have that right? So basically......the righteous mormons get in, and everyone else is wicked. Sorry....I dont drink the kool-aid that hard. Christ is more powerful than that. We need to open our frickin eyes. There are good people everywhere. There are bad people everywhere. Christ gave the be-attitudes. Go read them. Those are the people who will enter Heaven, inherit the Earth etc. I know many many many many people who are of other faiths who are righteous and described by Christ. I know many many many many temple recommend holding Mormons who are pieces of crap. No better than Zoramite scum.

I was born into the church, and gained my testimony along the way....so I have some defense against some of the hard things about our church. But personally, I feel for the man in Nelson's story......if someone from a small church that believed in magic rocks, plates that dont exist and were never actually seen by witnesses except "with spiritual eyes", and all of the shaming and family isolation that takes place if some family members dont drink the kool-aid as much as others.....I'd be in the same boat as that guy. I wouldnt be lining up to join this church either....when there are literally hundreds of other Christian churches that have righteous people who also claim the ordinances and blessings of Christ's true church.

The wheat and the tares sifting is world wide, not singular to this church. The sifting is happening to everyone regardless of what groups they identify with. There are indeed very good people in the world who are true to and foster Christ-like atributes in their life. Do you believe that the many great people outside of this church will deny baptism from Christ himself into His fold if presented? Because someday, these people will all be approached with the opportunity to make covenants. They will likely accept, and no it wont be into the “mormon” church. The “mormon” church will end and the kingdom of God will take over. All will be required to make covenants within that kingdom. On the flip side, do you really think the bad temple goers and jack members of this church will even show up at the door? I dont believe they will. If it wasnt required to stand for judgement, pretty sure they would rather be hidden under a rock.

If were opening our eyes here then we need to open them wide and see how narrow and restrictive we typically view things when in reality, were just in a bubble and everything will change soon enough. For those who think they are better or whatever else will be humbled for sure. Those who try and are good and feel inadequate will be lifted up.

This church is a place to make those covenants before the kingdom of God is here. The church is not the owner of anything as it produces nothing. It is merely a tool for the time being.

We agree on this. Like I said, I am not criticizing President Nelson, I think he is a fantastic man. Going back to his talk being "divisive"....in light of what you and I have both argued.....I would like to see a Prophet of the Lord say something to the following:

"There is great evil out there and there is great good. The evidences of both are obvious. Make a choice now which side you will stand on. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a charge to lead the establishment of Zion and the building up of the Kingdom. We invite all of the ends of the Earth to come make covenants with Jesus Christ and repent of all ungodliness in your lives. But we don't extend this invitation just to those members of this church. We advocate true principles and righteous living wherever they may be found. I once had a friend who asked me to help him be with his wife after death. This desire of his heart is sincere, and true. This speaks to the type of individual he is. I invited him to join the church, but he wasnt ready at this time. I trust that the Lord will touch the experiences and lives of all of his children at the exact time He needs to so that they will be ready to make covenants with Him. My friend was not willing to join our church at this time, and perhaps never in this life. I trust that the Lord will make room for him in the Spirit Paradise to continue learning and growing until such time that his lot in the eternities can be cast, along with all of his loved ones, in the Mansions of the Father. That is my prayer for all of us....and for all the ends of the Earth that hear to righteousness and true principles, regardless of their faith, creeds, or affiliations in this life. Amen."

Amen.

Or perhaps we ought to stick to the scriptures.

And by scriptures I presume you mean to say "everyone but the very very very few of you select precious few and chosen is doomed to an eternity without their family....so stand up and give yourselves all a big pat on the back because you are so much better than your heathen family members......and for the rest of you....time is running out so throw out your coffee and tea or else you are in big trouble!"

Seriously though....did you even read what I wrote? How can you interpret a single word of what I wrote to be in contrast with the scriptures?