MMbelieve wrote: ↑April 9th, 2019, 1:25 pm
Are people considered anti towards the teachings of Christ or simply the church organization?
If its just the church organization they are anti towards, then it begs to question why are they putting so much emphasis on attacking or fault finding the church?
Is it a warning?
Sense of betrayal?
Pride?
Desire for it to be more pure?
I can see two types of “antis” as they have been called...One that is mourning an increasingly imperfect church body and the other who has become bitter about an increasingly imperfect church body. Which brings the thought back to Eyrings priesthood talk. Those who criticize instead of sustain experience some negative consequences (bitterness?). And darkness.
Expressing concern is okay! Expressing questions is okay! Expressing doubt is okay! Expressing these things with no concern for the qualities of respect, love, humility and decency is not going to come across well or be received well. THIS is what has grown to be a problem on this forum. The respect for the leaders of the church, the sustaining of who has been called has been set aside just the same as society has set them aside in our everyday lives.
I respect person A
I dont respect person B
Each person said the same phrase or did the same deed that doesnt sit well with me...
I mention it to both but my words and tone and attitude will be different for person A than person B
How we speak our concerns determines and shows our attitude and if we have basic respect or if that has been cast aside.
My question is why do we expect so much from others than we do of ourselves?
Those who think poorly of the leaders need to exercise some self reflection and humility and ponder on how they themselves would hope to be received if they were a leader of the church. Would they really be able to do better? Be more holy? Have less weaknesses? Receive revelation more frequently and the “good stuff”, the meat? Could they handle the responsibility? How would they handle not being able to satisfy the many voices crying out to them with all different requests and demands.
My belief is that once we allow ourselves to have unsettled doubts or questions for a prolonged period of time, the adversary sets in and its a downward journey until we decide to shut up with our own beliefs and senses of entitlement (humble ourselves) and reground in the basic truths and submit to them. If we fail to self correct our “humanness” then we can become anti against the bassic doctrines of salvation.
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you said:
"If its just the church organization they are anti towards, then it begs to question why are they putting so much emphasis on attacking or fault finding the church?
Is it a warning?
Sense of betrayal?
Pride?
Desire for it to be more pure?"
more like
wanting to find the truth and putting Christ and His words first.
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is that all your little imagination can conjure up ?
maybe there's just a little bit better reason for it than what you think.
Members like you, think that members like me speak the way we do and bad about the church because of ridiculous reasons like you listed.
You think we just have some sort of grudge against the church and want to find fault and any excuse to cut down the church and it's leaders any way we can.
YOU ARE VERY VERY WRONG !
it's so sad that so many members like you care more about being true to the phrase "follow the prophet",
and care more about the church and it's leaders, than they do Jesus Christ and His words.
They still want to believe "all is well is Zion" despite the fact that the scriptures say otherwise,
and are full of warnings for us, and in fact show our apostasy.
But members don't want to see it, because they don't want to believe it, even if it is true.
The ONLY REASON I believe the way I do, and say the things I do is because
I choose to put Christ first - not the church or it's leaders.
I put Christ's words and our scriptures above EVERYTHING ELSE.
So most of the time it's actually not even me that is saying these things
and giving these warnings to us, it's Christ and great prophets in our scriptures,
like Isaiah that Jesus mentions.
And when Christ says something, and especially when He gives us a commandment
to do something, we had better DO IT !
WHY DID THE LORD HIMSELF SAY
"for great are the words of Isaiah" and
gave us a commandment that we "search these things diligently"
3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."
I wonder why the Lord has commanded us to -
"search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah."
because it reveals the follies of the church.
So believing in Christ and following Him - and not anyone else, and following His commandment
of "search these things diligently" the words of Isaiah,
if in many scriptures in Isaiah, like below where Isaiah compares the leaders of the church
to "dumb watchdogs", you can see why I speak the way I do about the church and leaders.
It's not me that is saying it, I'm only quoting Isaiah, Christ, and other prophets in our scriptures.
"Typifying the leaders of Jehovah’s people who make a Covenant with Death instead of a Covenant of Life (Isaiah 28:15, 18), or Jehovah’s wife who turns adulterous (Isaiah 1:21; 50:1), are certain “watchmen”—prophets and seers—who occupy the highest rung of society. Because they epitomize “dumb watchdogs” and “lolling seers,”
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"Why did Christ tell us to study Isaiah?"
because it brings out the follies of the church and it's leaders,
"the drunkards of Ephraim!" and condemns them.
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Isaiah 56
9 All you wild beasts, you animals of the forest,
come and devour!
10 Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware;
all of them are but dumb watchdogs unable to bark,
lolling seers fond of slumber.
Typifying the leaders of Jehovah’s people who make a Covenant with Death instead of a Covenant of Life (Isaiah 28:15, 18), or Jehovah’s wife who turns adulterous (Isaiah 1:21; 50:1), are certain “watchmen”—prophets and seers—who occupy the highest rung of society. Because they epitomize “dumb watchdogs” and “lolling seers,” Jehovah replaces them with a righteous watchman—his servant—and other watchmen: “Go and appoint a watchman who reports what he sees” (Isaiah 21:6); “I have appointed watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem, who shall not be silent day or night” (Isaiah 62:6).
As the job of Jehovah’s watchmen is to report to his people what they see and hear (Isaiah 21:10; 48:16), those who are blind and unaware see and hear little of consequence and fail to warn his people: “Who is blind but my own servant, or so deaf as the messenger I have sent? Who is blind like those I have commissioned, as uncomprehending as the servant of Jehovah—seeing much but not giving heed, with open ears hearing nothing?” (Isaiah 42:19-20. The final fate of the blind watchmen, literally and figuratively, is to be devoured by wild beasts—a covenant curse (Isaiah 5:29; 15:9; 51:8).
11 Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable,
such indeed are insensible shepherds.
They are all diverted to their own way,
every one after his own advantage.
12 Come, they say, let us get wine
and have our fill of liquor.
For tomorrow will be like today, only far better!
Instead of portraying these watchmen as ones who feed and protect the flock (Isaiah 5:17; 40:11; 63:11), the imagery of shepherds as dogs characterizes them as predators and unclean animals (Psalm 22:16; 1 Kings 14:11; Matthew 7:6). Instead of warning of trouble as Jehovah’s Day of Judgment approaches, they resemble wanton herdsmen who scatter the sheep and feed themselves off the fattest (Jeremiah 23:1-2; 50:6-7; Ezekiel 34:1-8). Instead of serving as proxy saviors to Jehovah’s people under the terms of the Davidic Covenant (Isaiah 37:35; 63:17; 65:8), they look out for themselves.
Word links round out the shepherds’ recriminatory state: “These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor. They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions” (Isaiah 28:7); “Procrastinate, and become bewildered; preoccupy yourselves, until you cry for help. Be drunk, but not with wine; stagger, but not from strong drink. Jehovah has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep: he has shut your eyes, the prophets; he has covered your heads, the seers” (Isaiah 29:9-10).
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