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Re: Why I stay
Posted: April 5th, 2019, 7:57 pm
by Benaishtart
The principle of organization is directly of God. I’m amazed at how clearly Jordan Peterson has been able to describe the deep meaning of the archetypal battle between order and chaos. Our father is a God of order. Satan is a tool of chaos. Organization teaches us godly principles of order. Anyone who says that organization is unnecessary or even evil does not understand how God operates. I believe that Brigham Young understood this as clearly as anyone. Satan just wants to take everything and to destroy it into a mess of smitherines. To create is to organize. Jesus clearly had an organization. Even Jesus respected the organized laws and customs of his day and was willing to submit to them. God does not operate through chaos. I know many people will say that this is binary thinking but this is really core to the essence of the war in heaven now taking place on earth.
Re: Why I stay
Posted: April 5th, 2019, 9:05 pm
by Thinker
captainfearnot wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 12:34 pm
marc wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 12:21 pm
Follow The Prophet.
Ah, thank you.
Yeah, thank you too.
After looking up FTP, & finding,
“FTP is an acronym for File Transfer Protocol,” I’ve been wondering how “it ALL boils down to file transfer protocol”?? I mean, I know the church keeps files on us - but what’s the transfer protocol? Maybe it all boils down to transferring our records. If nobody ever did the prope protocol, would the world continue to turn?
Re: Why I stay
Posted: April 5th, 2019, 9:30 pm
by sushi_chef
staying is necessary....for its written, "... that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen. "
Re: Why I stay
Posted: April 5th, 2019, 9:33 pm
by Thinker
ajax wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 11:42 am
People stay because they can't subconsciously shake the FTP principle. It provides a subconscious safety. That's how powerful it is. It ALL boils down to that. And the 10% keeps flowing to the coffers.
Dearest of all dear Ajaxes,
I like your idea of making up acronyms...
Why do I stay? You RWTK?
Well, I’m ITSB as Aprhys.
True it is not ABASS.
But TMAA.
I try to ETJ & HOWN.
Though LIC, the SOCIG.
It boils down to WFLOA - not bad.
RWTK: really want to know
ITSB: in the same boat
ABASS: a big and spacious ship
TMAA: too many aboard anyway.
ETJ: enjoy the journey
HOWN: help out when needed
LIC: love is conditional
SOCIG: sense of community is great
WFLOA: ward family loving one another
Re: Why I stay
Posted: April 5th, 2019, 10:31 pm
by Juliet
I recently had it dawn on me that the reason the Bishop takes the sacrament first, is to show that Jesus' grace covers our Bishop first, before he officiates his role over the ward.
It really is Jesus' church and He has chosen to give keys to people, people that He has chosen to sanctify in order that they may serve in His church.
Maybe the way we are in our carnal wisdom, we wouldn't be so willing to give power to our neighbors, seeing their faults. But for some reason Jesus has chosen to give regular people keys to lead His church, including doing the necessary sanctifying of them.
So, before we can pick at the failings of our leaders, we have to remember they are sanctified by the same atonement we are sanctified by, and be as Jesus is: patient, long suffering, envying not, enduring, and loving toward all.
Re: Why I stay
Posted: April 7th, 2019, 7:13 am
by topcat
Juliet wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 10:31 pm
I recently had it dawn on me that the reason the Bishop takes the sacrament first, is to show that Jesus' grace covers our Bishop first, before he officiates his role over the ward.
What does "he officiates his role over the ward" even mean?
Is a bishop even needed?
What would happen if all the bishops died or were released today and a successor wasn't called and sustained in "their" ward?
What would happen if you and let's say 100 people were shipwrecked on an island but there was no bishop? Could nobody worship Christ? Would all be in vain? All of you doomed to hell?
What if the bishop or the presiding "official" sitting up on the stand in their chief seats was served first
I mean, what if a policeman were to not wear a costume and have a badge to flash and flashing lights on his car, would that have an impact, or might those emblems be employed to convey "authority" to the slaves?
What if judges didn't wear robes and sit higher than the slaves, and what if they weren't surrounded by armed guards?
What if the apostles were seen up on the stand with a T-shirt and blue jeans at General Conference or out in public?! Might people view them differently?
Re: Why I stay
Posted: April 7th, 2019, 7:16 am
by topcat
Juliet wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 10:31 pm
I recently had it dawn on me that the reason the Bishop takes the sacrament first, is to show that Jesus' grace covers our Bishop first, before he officiates his role over the ward.
What does "he officiates his role over the ward" even mean?
Is a bishop even needed?
What would happen if all the bishops died or were released today and a successor wasn't called and sustained in "their" ward?
What would happen if you and let's say 100 people were shipwrecked on an island but there was no bishop? Could nobody worship Christ? Would all be in vain? All of you doomed to hell?
What if the bishop or the presiding "official" sitting up on the stand in their chief seats was served first
to communicate something to the minds of the people and that thing was hierarchical structure and "authority"?
I mean, what if a policeman were to not wear a costume and have a badge to flash and flashing lights on his car, would that have an impact, or might those emblems be employed to convey "authority" to the slaves?
What if judges didn't wear robes and sit higher than the slaves, and what if they weren't surrounded by armed guards?
What if the apostles were seen up on the stand with a T-shirt and blue jeans at General Conference or out in public?! Might people view them differently?
What if doctors didn't wear white coats?
What if the BoM warned against "classes" and getting lifted up in pride due to being "elite"?
What if we are equals in authority, indeed, sovereigns in our own right, and subject only to God?
Re: Why I stay
Posted: April 7th, 2019, 7:45 am
by Juliet
topcat wrote: ↑April 7th, 2019, 7:16 am
Juliet wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 10:31 pm
I recently had it dawn on me that the reason the Bishop takes the sacrament first, is to show that Jesus' grace covers our Bishop first, before he officiates his role over the ward.
What does "he officiates his role over the ward" even mean?
Is a bishop even needed?
What would happen if all the bishops died or were released today and a successor wasn't called and sustained in "their" ward?
What would happen if you and let's say 100 people were shipwrecked on an island but there was no bishop? Could nobody worship Christ? Would all be in vain? All of you doomed to hell?
What if the bishop or the presiding "official" sitting up on the stand in their chief seats was served first
to communicate something to the minds of the people and that thing was hierarchical structure and "authority"?
I mean, what if a policeman were to not wear a costume and have a badge to flash and flashing lights on his car, would that have an impact, or might those emblems be employed to convey "authority" to the slaves?
What if judges didn't wear robes and sit higher than the slaves, and what if they weren't surrounded by armed guards?
What if the apostles were seen up on the stand with a T-shirt and blue jeans at General Conference or out in public?! Might people view them differently?
What if doctors didn't wear white coats?
What if the BoM warned against "classes" and getting lifted up in pride due to being "elite"?
What if we are equals in authority, indeed, sovereigns in our own right, and subject only to God?
I am with you on that. I wish we were all ready to step into our sovereignty, to take responsibility for protecting ourselves, and to walk in our own personal relationship with Jesus Christ. The purpose of the Bishop is to help members develop their relationship with Jesus Christ.
Sometimes believing in Jesus can be hard. Having a physical person that officiates for Him, saying what He would say if He we're here, can help someone come to Christ.
Re: Why I stay
Posted: April 7th, 2019, 1:00 pm
by eddie
ajax wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 10:57 am
marc wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 10:42 am
I stay because I'm not about to trade one flawed organization for another.
No organization necessary.
The Lord commanded, “ Organize yourself, a house of order, a house of learning.”
Re: Why I stay
Posted: April 7th, 2019, 1:09 pm
by topcat
eddie wrote: ↑April 7th, 2019, 1:00 pm
ajax wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 10:57 am
marc wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 10:42 am
I stay because I'm not about to trade one flawed organization for another.
No organization necessary.
The Lord commanded, “ Organize yourself, a house of order, a house of learning.”
Did the Lord command to incorporate, subject to the laws of Babylon?
Re: Why I stay
Posted: April 7th, 2019, 1:22 pm
by marc
If I recall church history, the Lord's command to organize a house of order and learning referred specifically to the School of the Prophets.
Re: Why I stay
Posted: April 7th, 2019, 2:25 pm
by eddie
marc wrote: ↑April 7th, 2019, 1:22 pm
If I recall church history, the Lord's command to organize a house of order and learning referred specifically to the School of the Prophets.
Order is characteristic of the Lords work, in D&C he said organize yourself in all things. This includes the Temple, our homes, and His church.
Re: Why I stay
Posted: April 7th, 2019, 2:30 pm
by marc
Found it.
D&C 88:127 And again, the order of the house prepared for the presidency of the school of the prophets, established for their instruction in all things that are expedient for them, even for all the officers of the church, or in other words, those who are called to the ministry in the church, beginning at the high priests, even down to the deacons...
Re: Why I stay
Posted: April 7th, 2019, 5:54 pm
by topcat
marc wrote: ↑April 7th, 2019, 2:30 pm
Found it.
D&C 88:127 And again, the order of the house prepared for the presidency of the school of the prophets, established for their instruction in all things that are expedient for them, even for all the officers of the church, or in other words, those who are called to the ministry in the church, beginning at the high priests, even down to the deacons...
And it should be clarified that the "Preach My Gospel" of the day , the manual for instruction, was The Lectures on Faith.
So the Lord called for the organization of a school, even the school of the prophets, and provided The Lectures on Faith via inspired servants in that day, and then less than a hundred years later in 1921 the rug was swept out from beneath the Church, in other words, the doctrine of the Church was clandestinely stricken from the Church, so that today the vast majority if not probably over 99% of the people have no clue what the doctrines of salvation are, so that we are tossed to and fro with the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.
It's as if the Church was infiltrated by tares and they had a long-term plan to destroy the Church from within.
One of the first things that communists, for example, do is to gain control of the education of the people. That same evil strategy was used by the evil one in this particular case, as the school was abandoned, and then the foundational doctrine removed.
Re: Why I stay
Posted: April 7th, 2019, 8:49 pm
by Rand
Juliet wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 10:31 pm
I recently had it dawn on me that the reason the Bishop takes the sacrament first, is to show that Jesus' grace covers our Bishop first, before he officiates his role over the ward.
It really is Jesus' church and He has chosen to give keys to people, people that He has chosen to sanctify in order that they may serve in His church.
Maybe the way we are in our carnal wisdom, we wouldn't be so willing to give power to our neighbors, seeing their faults. But for some reason Jesus has chosen to give regular people keys to lead His church, including doing the necessary sanctifying of them.
So, before we can pick at the failings of our leaders, we have to remember they are sanctified by the same atonement we are sanctified by, and be as Jesus is: patient, long suffering, envying not, enduring, and loving toward all.
Beams and motes... well said.
Our Bishop said it was a reminder to him that he needed it more than anyone else in the congregation.
Re: Why I stay
Posted: April 8th, 2019, 12:24 am
by eddie
marc wrote: ↑April 7th, 2019, 2:30 pm
Found it.
D&C 88:127 And again, the order of the house prepared for the presidency of the school of the prophets, established for their instruction in all things that are expedient for them, even for all the officers of the church, or in other words, those who are called to the ministry in the church, beginning at the high priests, even down to the deacons...
“My house is a house of order, saith the Lord God” (D&C 132:18; emphasis added). And he told his prophet: “See that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order” (Mosiah 4:27; emphasis added).
Paul told the Corinthians that “all things” were to “be done decently and in order” (see 1 Cor. 14:40; emphasis added)