LDS Freedom Forum

Great8 wrote: ↑April 4th, 2019, 1:35 pm So I am a father of six and my wife has been a stay at home mom for 20+ years. She was thinking of doing the Pathways program as a way to ween herself away of being a good and faithful servant.

Upon a deeper dive of the program I have come to learn two things:

1. The president of BYUI is the son of an apostle.
2. The president of Pathways is a guy who posts a video of his wonderful LDS family and his +$800k house in an attempt to 'encourage' students. The video was 'all about him and how wonderful he was'.

We have a friend who is tied to BYUI and so we inquired. This person said that the president was there 'as a right of passage' and had no leadership vision. This person also said that the Pathways president was a friend of a friend with no true professional job experience but that his DNA was what got him into that role.

Help me please understand what is going on. I was thoroughly disgusted to know that this guy was in 'your face' with his wonderful family, when the Pathways program is set up for less fortunate people with little resources. Also disgusted to know that with 16M people in the church from all backgrounds and they put in the son of an apostle as president.

And yes I am starting to get frustrated with the church the older I become. Too many politics at the ward, stake and GA levels. I wish I was as naive as I once was. At this point tho I have invested too much to walk away (kids at BYU and missions).

"In the Sermon on the Mount, Christ set out standard which should transform a person. The standards there ask us to change from merely avoiding physically harming others, as was required in the Law of Moses, to loving them instead. He even asks you to love them when they despitefully use and abuse you. Apparently impossible standards are being asked of us by the Lord.

The process of developing the attributes Christ asked of us in the Sermon on the Mount begins in Church service. These fellow Saints are given to you to help you grow and develop patience, love and charity. Some of our fellow Saints are lovely and loving. They are easy to show a Christ-like love to because the return your kindness, either in like measure or in greater measure. We all know Saints like that. But they don't stretch us into improvement.

It is that unlikable bishop, or the unworthy and uninspired high councilman, or the abrasive and unlikable semi-heretic, complaining every Gospel Doctrine class about some pet project or issue who provides us the greatest opportunities to begin to develop charity. These people are there as gifts from God to help us become more like Him. Having unlikable Saints about us is exactly as it should be. Having leaders who fail in their callings is also just as it should be. These things are a gift to you, to provide you a chance to return love and charity to those who need it, and probably will never recognize the gifts you are developing through their shortcomings.

Praying for the unlikable and unworthy is a part of the Christ-like attributes which both Nephi and Lehi display in the First Book of Nephi. Lehi make intercession for the condemned residents of Jerusalem. Nephi makes intercession for his unbelieving older brothers. Both are showing the kind of charity that makes you like Christ. Christ was the Great Intercessor. In like measure, you must make intercession for those who fall short in your life. You should thank God for the opportunity which they give you to show that charity. It may seem odd to do this when you start. But prayer and grace go together. You will find you are able to pray with sincerity for those in your life after you have spent time on your knees on their behalf. Grace begets grace. Do it, and you will grow as a result. The Saints and your calling in the Church is the place where you begin this process. The offensive and failing Saint has not been given to you to judge, condemn or belittle. They are given to you as a gift from God, to allow you to serve, uplift, pray for and show love to as God's own son or daughter. They are your greatest opportunities. You should love them for this."

Great8 wrote: ↑April 4th, 2019, 1:35 pm So I am a father of six and my wife has been a stay at home mom for 20+ years. She was thinking of doing the Pathways program as a way to ween herself away of being a good and faithful servant.

Upon a deeper dive of the program I have come to learn two things:

1. The president of BYUI is the son of an apostle.
2. The president of Pathways is a guy who posts a video of his wonderful LDS family and his +$800k house in an attempt to 'encourage' students. The video was 'all about him and how wonderful he was'.

We have a friend who is tied to BYUI and so we inquired. This person said that the president was there 'as a right of passage' and had no leadership vision. This person also said that the Pathways president was a friend of a friend with no true professional job experience but that his DNA was what got him into that role.

Help me please understand what is going on. I was thoroughly disgusted to know that this guy was in 'your face' with his wonderful family, when the Pathways program is set up for less fortunate people with little resources. Also disgusted to know that with 16M people in the church from all backgrounds and they put in the son of an apostle as president.

And yes I am starting to get frustrated with the church the older I become. Too many politics at the ward, stake and GA levels. I wish I was as naive as I once was. At this point tho I have invested too much to walk away (kids at BYU and missions).

David13 wrote: ↑April 4th, 2019, 2:41 pm Yes, it is definitely the case. But it is also the case in many another place, as well.

I think it's just a usual part of life that you have to get used to and accept or not.

But I'm sure it won't change. Other than that the clamor is now for Apostles etc., to be "called" according to race, so that they "represent" their race, rather than have all white or caucasian apostles. And then there is the whole "women's" thing.

Not to mention the homo clamoring.

I believe J Golden Kimball once said he would be nothing in this church if it wasn't for his ... (uncle, grandfather, whoever he was related to).
dc

Some people say a person receives a position in this church through revelation, and others say they get it through inspiration, but I say they get it through relation. If I hadn't been related to Heber C. Kimball I wouldn't have been a damn thing in this church.
J. Golden Kimball

gangbusters wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 3:24 pm

Great8 wrote: ↑April 4th, 2019, 1:35 pm So I am a father of six and my wife has been a stay at home mom for 20+ years. She was thinking of doing the Pathways program as a way to ween herself away of being a good and faithful servant.

Upon a deeper dive of the program I have come to learn two things:

1. The president of BYUI is the son of an apostle.
2. The president of Pathways is a guy who posts a video of his wonderful LDS family and his +$800k house in an attempt to 'encourage' students. The video was 'all about him and how wonderful he was'.

We have a friend who is tied to BYUI and so we inquired. This person said that the president was there 'as a right of passage' and had no leadership vision. This person also said that the Pathways president was a friend of a friend with no true professional job experience but that his DNA was what got him into that role.

Help me please understand what is going on. I was thoroughly disgusted to know that this guy was in 'your face' with his wonderful family, when the Pathways program is set up for less fortunate people with little resources. Also disgusted to know that with 16M people in the church from all backgrounds and they put in the son of an apostle as president.

And yes I am starting to get frustrated with the church the older I become. Too many politics at the ward, stake and GA levels. I wish I was as naive as I once was. At this point tho I have invested too much to walk away (kids at BYU and missions).

May I (at least try) to be a voice of reason here? You're basing your jaundiced opinion of BYUI, its president, and the head of the Pathways program on the opinion of "a friend who is tied to BYUI?" Is it possible that your friend's opinion is wrong? Could it be unfounded? Do you believe every piece of scuttlebutt you hear about someone? What if someone said the same about you? Should it be believed? How do you know that just because he's the son of an Apostle he's not qualified to run BYUI? Could it also be that the dude's video promoting Pathways wasn't actually intending to make you feel horrible about yourself?

Does it strike you as ironic that you're railing against the Church and a couple of people that you perceive to be holier than thou, prideful, whatever, yet completely gloss over the fact that the Church is offering an absolutely incredible program that allows your wife to get her degree? No, I'm not saying those things are not possible, but you've hardly presented any evidence that they're true, either, and until they are, how about assuming the best about things? Maybe there's more to this story you haven't shared, but you frankly just come across a little negative.

5tev3 wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 3:14 pm

Great8 wrote: ↑April 4th, 2019, 1:35 pm So I am a father of six and my wife has been a stay at home mom for 20+ years. She was thinking of doing the Pathways program as a way to ween herself away of being a good and faithful servant.

Upon a deeper dive of the program I have come to learn two things:

1. The president of BYUI is the son of an apostle.
2. The president of Pathways is a guy who posts a video of his wonderful LDS family and his +$800k house in an attempt to 'encourage' students. The video was 'all about him and how wonderful he was'.

We have a friend who is tied to BYUI and so we inquired. This person said that the president was there 'as a right of passage' and had no leadership vision. This person also said that the Pathways president was a friend of a friend with no true professional job experience but that his DNA was what got him into that role.

Help me please understand what is going on. I was thoroughly disgusted to know that this guy was in 'your face' with his wonderful family, when the Pathways program is set up for less fortunate people with little resources. Also disgusted to know that with 16M people in the church from all backgrounds and they put in the son of an apostle as president.

And yes I am starting to get frustrated with the church the older I become. Too many politics at the ward, stake and GA levels. I wish I was as naive as I once was. At this point tho I have invested too much to walk away (kids at BYU and missions).

Here's a quote that I have found very helpful as a follower of Christ. Trigger warning: it's from Denver Snuffer's book "The Second Comforter" which I read years before he went on his present journey. I don't promote Snuffer or his organizations but this is a good quote and truth well said is independent in its own sphere.

"In the Sermon on the Mount, Christ set out standard which should transform a person. The standards there ask us to change from merely avoiding physically harming others, as was required in the Law of Moses, to loving them instead. He even asks you to love them when they despitefully use and abuse you. Apparently impossible standards are being asked of us by the Lord.

The process of developing the attributes Christ asked of us in the Sermon on the Mount begins in Church service. These fellow Saints are given to you to help you grow and develop patience, love and charity. Some of our fellow Saints are lovely and loving. They are easy to show a Christ-like love to because the return your kindness, either in like measure or in greater measure. We all know Saints like that. But they don't stretch us into improvement.

It is that unlikable bishop, or the unworthy and uninspired high councilman, or the abrasive and unlikable semi-heretic, complaining every Gospel Doctrine class about some pet project or issue who provides us the greatest opportunities to begin to develop charity. These people are there as gifts from God to help us become more like Him. Having unlikable Saints about us is exactly as it should be. Having leaders who fail in their callings is also just as it should be. These things are a gift to you, to provide you a chance to return love and charity to those who need it, and probably will never recognize the gifts you are developing through their shortcomings.

Praying for the unlikable and unworthy is a part of the Christ-like attributes which both Nephi and Lehi display in the First Book of Nephi. Lehi make intercession for the condemned residents of Jerusalem. Nephi makes intercession for his unbelieving older brothers. Both are showing the kind of charity that makes you like Christ. Christ was the Great Intercessor. In like measure, you must make intercession for those who fall short in your life. You should thank God for the opportunity which they give you to show that charity. It may seem odd to do this when you start. But prayer and grace go together. You will find you are able to pray with sincerity for those in your life after you have spent time on your knees on their behalf. Grace begets grace. Do it, and you will grow as a result. The Saints and your calling in the Church is the place where you begin this process. The offensive and failing Saint has not been given to you to judge, condemn or belittle. They are given to you as a gift from God, to allow you to serve, uplift, pray for and show love to as God's own son or daughter. They are your greatest opportunities. You should love them for this."

Remember that when God created his church, he intentionally put mortals in charge and is slow to fix their mistakes, not because he doesn't care, but because everything is as it needs to be. If you are frustrated then GOOD because when you were naive you were not growing, just enjoying a ride. Now the work begins, the hard work, the work Jesus called us to. If you are frustrated, you have not invested nearly enough, not what really matters.

This is it though, my friend, this is the humiliation, the lowliness, the long-suffering, enduring those that irritate the ever-loving crap out of you. Stepping down and sacrificing for them, stripping away the bitterness, not because they deserve it, but because we love God enough to do it. Maybe we don't but we are willing to sacrifice anyway against our feelings, desires, histories, all that jazz, we do it anyway with spit in our face and bruises on our backs.

Following Christ doesn't mean stopping at the last supper table, we go out into Gethsemane, face the accusers, and allow them to nail us to a cross. It's not fair, nothing about it is. But mercy is not fair, it isn't just, it is love and we must be possessed of it. If we are, God will raise us up at the last day.

captainfearnot wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:30 pm If you really want to blow your mind, read some D. Michael Quinn. He documents how virtually every apostle has been related by blood or marriage to some other general authority since the days of Brigham Young.

Great8 wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 8:17 pm

captainfearnot wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:30 pm If you really want to blow your mind, read some D. Michael Quinn. He documents how virtually every apostle has been related by blood or marriage to some other general authority since the days of Brigham Young.

I probably shouldn't. The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, and The Mormon Hierarchy: Wealth and Corporate Power articles do look interesting to read tho.

shadow wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 9:24 pm

Great8 wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 8:17 pm

captainfearnot wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:30 pm If you really want to blow your mind, read some D. Michael Quinn. He documents how virtually every apostle has been related by blood or marriage to some other general authority since the days of Brigham Young.

I probably shouldn't. The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, and The Mormon Hierarchy: Wealth and Corporate Power articles do look interesting to read tho.

And don't forget about Joseph who was sold into Egypt- he set up his family pretty dang good. Oh, and weren't some of Christ's apostles his own brothers, not to mention his cousin old whats his name, something the Baptist. Then there's Joseph and his brother Hyrum, and his padre the patriarch. If todays nepotism is in your way where's your angst for all of it in the OT and NT?? Are you done with Christianity or just the Latter-Day Saints? As the song in Frozen goes, let it go.

Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 1:25 pm Divine nepotism is called, "The Patriarchal Order"

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 3:28 pm Pythagoras, Plato, B.F. Skinner all believed that a society should be run by a representative elite that people believed they chose within those circles to rule, but even then the ones you see are to be guided by a scientific elite behind the scenes. Pretty much that is the way American society has been governed since at least the 1st world war.

I do not think the Church is run like this. However, there may be something to bloodlines and such, even in spiritual matters. Does not mean it is an evil thing.

Great8 wrote: ↑April 4th, 2019, 1:35 pm So I am a father of six and my wife has been a stay at home mom for 20+ years. She was thinking of doing the Pathways program as a way to ween herself away of being a good and faithful servant.

Upon a deeper dive of the program I have come to learn two things:

1. The president of BYUI is the son of an apostle.
2. The president of Pathways is a guy who posts a video of his wonderful LDS family and his +$800k house in an attempt to 'encourage' students. The video was 'all about him and how wonderful he was'.

We have a friend who is tied to BYUI and so we inquired. This person said that the president was there 'as a right of passage' and had no leadership vision. This person also said that the Pathways president was a friend of a friend with no true professional job experience but that his DNA was what got him into that role.

Help me please understand what is going on. I was thoroughly disgusted to know that this guy was in 'your face' with his wonderful family, when the Pathways program is set up for less fortunate people with little resources. Also disgusted to know that with 16M people in the church from all backgrounds and they put in the son of an apostle as president.

And yes I am starting to get frustrated with the church the older I become. Too many politics at the ward, stake and GA levels. I wish I was as naive as I once was. At this point tho I have invested too much to walk away (kids at BYU and missions).

captainfearnot wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:30 pm If you really want to blow your mind, read some D. Michael Quinn. He documents how virtually every apostle has been related by blood or marriage to some other general authority since the days of Brigham Young.

skylight wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 7:19 pm My understanding is the church has two roles
1) to gather, as a net
2) then it’s job is to disappoint. Why?
So a person will then let Christ take them the REST OF THE WAY.

The church can only bring you so far, it’s a platform to go to Christ and let Him lift you to the rest after you have garnered all the light and knowledge you have received and procured from being gathered in the net.

Great8 wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 5:56 pm

captainfearnot wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:30 pm If you really want to blow your mind, read some D. Michael Quinn. He documents how virtually every apostle has been related by blood or marriage to some other general authority since the days of Brigham Young.

BREAKING: BYU-Idaho President Henry J. Eyring among those to receive callings at general conference

I am singing The Jeffersons theme song here! SMH

Sarah wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 8:00 pm How many of you who are criticizing the call would be willing to accept a call to be Elders quorum President or Bishop, and then magnify that calling?

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 7:32 pm

skylight wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 7:19 pm My understanding is the church has two roles
1) to gather, as a net
2) then it’s job is to disappoint. Why?
So a person will then let Christ take them the REST OF THE WAY.

The church can only bring you so far, it’s a platform to go to Christ and let Him lift you to the rest after you have garnered all the light and knowledge you have received and procured from being gathered in the net.

I agree with you 100%, but how does that concept fit in with all the times we have been sternly counseled to Stay in the Good Ship Zion? There is a video where Elder Ballard tells us to follow them as they follow Christ. I have never heard what you wrote above from any leader in the Church. I wish I would. It's a quote I really could use in talking to a certain family member.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 7:32 pm

skylight wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 7:19 pm My understanding is the church has two roles
1) to gather, as a net
2) then it’s job is to disappoint. Why?
So a person will then let Christ take them the REST OF THE WAY.

The church can only bring you so far, it’s a platform to go to Christ and let Him lift you to the rest after you have garnered all the light and knowledge you have received and procured from being gathered in the net.

I agree with you 100%, but how does that concept fit in with all the times we have been sternly counseled to Stay in the Good Ship Zion? There is a video where Elder Ballard tells us to follow them as they follow Christ. I have never heard what you wrote above from any leader in the Church. I wish I would. It's a quote I really could use in talking to a certain family member.

skylight wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 8:41 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 7:32 pm

skylight wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 7:19 pm My understanding is the church has two roles
1) to gather, as a net
2) then it’s job is to disappoint. Why?
So a person will then let Christ take them the REST OF THE WAY.

The church can only bring you so far, it’s a platform to go to Christ and let Him lift you to the rest after you have garnered all the light and knowledge you have received and procured from being gathered in the net.

I agree with you 100%, but how does that concept fit in with all the times we have been sternly counseled to Stay in the Good Ship Zion? There is a video where Elder Ballard tells us to follow them as they follow Christ. I have never heard what you wrote above from any leader in the Church. I wish I would. It's a quote I really could use in talking to a certain family member.

Perhaps people need to be gathered in, and when their faith is strong enough, they can then move forward and WALK ON WATER with the Lord.

Sarah wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 10:22 pm

skylight wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 8:41 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 7:32 pm

skylight wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 7:19 pm My understanding is the church has two roles
1) to gather, as a net
2) then it’s job is to disappoint. Why?
So a person will then let Christ take them the REST OF THE WAY.

The church can only bring you so far, it’s a platform to go to Christ and let Him lift you to the rest after you have garnered all the light and knowledge you have received and procured from being gathered in the net.

I agree with you 100%, but how does that concept fit in with all the times we have been sternly counseled to Stay in the Good Ship Zion? There is a video where Elder Ballard tells us to follow them as they follow Christ. I have never heard what you wrote above from any leader in the Church. I wish I would. It's a quote I really could use in talking to a certain family member.

Perhaps people need to be gathered in, and when their faith is strong enough, they can then move forward and WALK ON WATER with the Lord.

Or...you could compare the ship to the ark. The Lord said that the last days would be like the days of Noah. Only those who listened to the prophet and got on the ark survived.