Devine Nepotism ?

[shadow]

My understanding is the church has two roles
1) to gather, as a net
2) then it’s job is to disappoint. Why?
So a person will then let Christ take them the REST OF THE WAY.

The church can only bring you so far, it’s a platform to go to Christ and let Him lift you to the rest after you have garnered all the light and knowledge you have received and procured from being gathered in the net.

I agree with you 100%, but how does that concept fit in with all the times we have been sternly counseled to Stay in the Good Ship Zion? There is a video where Elder Ballard tells us to follow them as they follow Christ. I have never heard what you wrote above from any leader in the Church. I wish I would. It's a quote I really could use in talking to a certain family member.

Perhaps people need to be gathered in, and when their faith is strong enough, they can then move forward and WALK ON WATER with the Lord.

Or...you could compare the ship to the ark. The Lord said that the last days would be like the days of Noah. Only those who listened to the prophet and got on the ark survived.

Bingo!
Nobody compared following Noah to idolatry. The wicked discount the Lord's church and His prophets every chance they get.

[EmmaLee]

Or...you could compare the ship to the ark. The Lord said that the last days would be like the days of Noah. Only those who listened to the prophet and got on the ark survived.

Or... they listened to their dad and husband, not so much Noah as a 'prophet', as the only people on the ark were his immediate family. All the other righteous people on the earth had already been taken up - or do you really believe Noah and his immediate family were literally the only people on the entire earth considered to be 'righteous'?

[topcat]

I agree with you 100%, but how does that concept fit in with all the times we have been sternly counseled to Stay in the Good Ship Zion? There is a video where Elder Ballard tells us to follow them as they follow Christ. I have never heard what you wrote above from any leader in the Church. I wish I would. It's a quote I really could use in talking to a certain family member.

Perhaps people need to be gathered in, and when their faith is strong enough, they can then move forward and WALK ON WATER with the Lord.

Or...you could compare the ship to the ark. The Lord said that the last days would be like the days of Noah. Only those who listened to the prophet and got on the ark survived.

Bingo!
Nobody compared following Noah to idolatry. The wicked discount the Lord's church and His prophets every chance they get.

Correct, nobody did.

The comparison was the ark to the church institution.

Conflation is the devil's closest ally, and oft-used trap that the unwitting and witting fall into.

[EmmaLee]

I agree with you 100%, but how does that concept fit in with all the times we have been sternly counseled to Stay in the Good Ship Zion? There is a video where Elder Ballard tells us to follow them as they follow Christ. I have never heard what you wrote above from any leader in the Church. I wish I would. It's a quote I really could use in talking to a certain family member.

Perhaps people need to be gathered in, and when their faith is strong enough, they can then move forward and WALK ON WATER with the Lord.

Or...you could compare the ship to the ark. The Lord said that the last days would be like the days of Noah. Only those who listened to the prophet and got on the ark survived.

Bingo!
Nobody compared following Noah to idolatry. The wicked discount the Lord's church and His prophets every chance they get.

And you, shadow, and your equally (self)righteous co-horts on this internet forum, are the perfect people to determine just who the "wicked" are, correct? I mean, you and your other (self)righteous, and high and holy LDSFF buddies can judge other people's souls and hearts completely - you know everything that has happened to them in their lives - you know every thought/prayer/feeling/etc. that they've ever had - just going by a few words printed online, right? You're just THAT good. Impressive. I'm surprised ya'll haven't been translated yet.

[Sarah]

Perhaps people need to be gathered in, and when their faith is strong enough, they can then move forward and WALK ON WATER with the Lord.

Or...you could compare the ship to the ark. The Lord said that the last days would be like the days of Noah. Only those who listened to the prophet and got on the ark survived.

Bingo!
Nobody compared following Noah to idolatry. The wicked discount the Lord's church and His prophets every chance they get.

Correct, nobody did.

The comparison was the ark to the church institution.

Conflation is the devil's closest ally, and oft-used trap that the unwitting and witting fall into.

Like the comparison made earlier of the church to the fishing boat?

[TheSnail]

The OP launched a scathing attack against a superb school and program with zero actual evidence of wrong doing.

I completed the pathway program, which was excellent, and have obtained my programming certificate through byui which has really helped me in my career.

I can tell you that it's a excellent school, and if anyone is picking a University, you'd be crazy not to choose byui in almost any circumstance.

The school is extremely well run and affordable, in stark contrast to most universities today.

You can accuse them of whatever, but the results speak for themselves. I'm disgusted by this nit-picking.

If you think a familial relation is evidence of nepotism, you could learn something from the book of Mormon. Alma son of Alma, Helaman soon of Alma, Helaman son of Helaman, Nephi son of Helaman, Nephi son of Nephi. That's 5 generations of great men who were the sons of great men. If you read your scriptures more you will learn why that is often the case.

Instead of being jealous, you could look at the sacrifices that the Lord's anointed make, and be grateful, and hope you don't get called to similar position.

[topcat]

Or...you could compare the ship to the ark. The Lord said that the last days would be like the days of Noah. Only those who listened to the prophet and got on the ark survived.

Bingo!
Nobody compared following Noah to idolatry. The wicked discount the Lord's church and His prophets every chance they get.

Correct, nobody did.

The comparison was the ark to the church institution.

Conflation is the devil's closest ally, and oft-used trap that the unwitting and witting fall into.

Like the comparison made earlier of the church to the fishing boat?

Are you referring to Matthew 13?

47¶ Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

The Age of Pisces has just ended (I.e., the gathering of the initial fish of every kind), and we are in the transitioning into the Age of Aquarius (in which the vase of the wrath and glory of God will be poured out, like water, in measure upon the inhabitants of the earth. The flood is coming. The river will overflow.).

The Lord has used the missionary program of the main LDS church to His benefit in for His eternal purposes.

But note that the net and the process of gathering by the net is referred to how the Kingdom of heaven does things, not the church and certainly not just the church.

And note, in the last verse of the parable, that it will be God doing His own work (using angels) gathering His people, His sheep, into His fold.

[Sarah]

I think its a fine analogy, but Jesus was walking to his apostles, and after Peter got out of the boat and met Jesus, they went back onto the boat.

[Sarah]

Bingo!
Nobody compared following Noah to idolatry. The wicked discount the Lord's church and His prophets every chance they get.

Correct, nobody did.

The comparison was the ark to the church institution.

Conflation is the devil's closest ally, and oft-used trap that the unwitting and witting fall into.

Like the comparison made earlier of the church to the fishing boat?

Are you referring to Matthew 13?

47¶ Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

The Age of Pisces has just ended (I.e., the gathering of the initial fish of every kind), and we are in the transitioning into the Age of Aquarius (in which the vase of the wrath and glory of God will be poured out, like water, in measure upon the inhabitants of the earth. The flood is coming. The river will overflow.).

The Lord has used the missionary program of the main LDS church to His benefit in for His eternal purposes.

But note that the net and the process of gathering by the net is referred to how the Kingdom of heaven does things, not the church and certainly not just the church.

And note, in the last verse of the parable, that it will be God doing His own work (using angels) gathering His people, His sheep, into His fold.

I think it's foolish to think that leaving the church is going to assure you that angels will rescue you at the last day. In Matt. 24 JST it describes the angels gathering the remainder of Israel to where the carcass is, or the church body. The sifting will happen, but the apostles will be in the net.

[topcat]

The OP launched a scathing attack against a superb school and program with zero actual evidence of wrong doing.

I completed the pathway program, which was excellent, and have obtained my programming certificate through byui which has really helped me in my career.

I can tell you that it's a excellent school, and if anyone is picking a University, you'd be crazy not to choose byui in almost any circumstance.

The school is extremely well run and affordable, in stark contrast to most universities today.

You can accuse them of whatever, but the results speak for themselves. I'm disgusted by this nit-picking.

If you think a familial relation is evidence of nepotism, you could learn something from the book of Mormon. Alma son of Alma, Helaman soon of Alma, Helaman son of Helaman, Nephi son of Helaman, Nephi son of Nephi. That's 5 generations of great men who were the sons of great men. If you read your scriptures more you will learn why that is often the case.

Instead of being jealous, you could look at the sacrifices that the Lord's anointed make, and be grateful, and hope you don't get called to similar position.

Are you part of the family?

I would agree with you about your attack on the relevance of nepotism, if the facts backed you up.

Your comparison of the patriarchal order of God calling sons of true messengers of God to the patriarchal order doesn't apply, does it?

None of the men save Joseph Smith in the last days have claimed to have been chosen and sent by God. However, the prophets in the scriptures do make the claim, and the revelations back up their claim, and we have the Holy Ghost to discern whether those revelations and scriptures in print are true or not.

As to the son of a member of the First Presidency who runs BYU Hawaii, I think you will find this expose of his lack of competence in critical thinking astounding, if you have the stomach to listen to it:

https://radiofreemormon.org/2018/12/rad ... me-part-1/

Also, I would ask you, if there was mountains of evidence (and there is!) of nepotism in the church from the days of Brigham Young forward, in other words, the apostles themselves and their family members, including sons and daughters, and brothers and sisters, and close business associates who are friends, were found to occupy the seats of corporate boards, and corporate officers, of dozens and dozens of corporations worth tens of billions of dollars, would that change your mind about nepotism, or would you consider that to be appropriate way to disperse the sacred funds of tithing?

Also, in case you are not aware, there is only one person who has ABSOLUTE power and authority in the Church. And that would be the president of the church. Look it up.

In fact the Church is a DBA. The real name is The President of the Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Look it up.

The reason why the general authorities are fond of constantly quoting the president of the church, is because he is their boss, literally. He pays them their salary, and gives them their positions on corporate boards, etc.

Dallin H. Oaks has been a board member of companies that are connected with the true Gadianton powers of our day. Wikipedia, the curated biography of famous people, even acknowledges that fact:

Additionally, over the course of his career, Oaks served as a director of the Union Pacific Corporation and Union Pacific Railroad.

Those corporations are directly connected and run by the ruling oligarchy which has destroyed liberty in all nations of the world just as Moroni prophesied in Ether 8.

We even have a former CFR apostle who was just called last year. The CFR is long documented and proven to be an enemy to freedom and to the United States of America's very existence.

Only a completely ignorant and unpatriotic person would ever consider associating with the CFR. Or it could just be an accident, and Elder Gong could be clueless and innocently deceived.

If you can show me any type of evidence that any of our living apostles give a flying fart about freedom and liberty, in the mold of even 2% of Ezra Taft Benson, I'd be very impressed. We're on the LDS freedom forum. Surley you have an appreciation for liberty and such talks
of defending the Constitution or defending freedom or talks that are calculated to enlarge liberty would have caught your attention over the years. Start with President Nelson and go down the line. Please produce some talks.

[topcat]

Correct, nobody did.

The comparison was the ark to the church institution.

Conflation is the devil's closest ally, and oft-used trap that the unwitting and witting fall into.

Like the comparison made earlier of the church to the fishing boat?

Are you referring to Matthew 13?

47¶ Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

The Age of Pisces has just ended (I.e., the gathering of the initial fish of every kind), and we are in the transitioning into the Age of Aquarius (in which the vase of the wrath and glory of God will be poured out, like water, in measure upon the inhabitants of the earth. The flood is coming. The river will overflow.).

The Lord has used the missionary program of the main LDS church to His benefit in for His eternal purposes.

But note that the net and the process of gathering by the net is referred to how the Kingdom of heaven does things, not the church and certainly not just the church.

And note, in the last verse of the parable, that it will be God doing His own work (using angels) gathering His people, His sheep, into His fold.

I think it's foolish to think that leaving the church is going to assure you that angels will rescue you at the last day. In Matt. 24 JST it describes the angels gathering the remainder of Israel to where the carcass is, or the church body. The sifting will happen, but the apostles will be in the net.

Who's left the church?

See how the Lord defines "church" in Doctrine and Covenants 10.

[shadow]

Perhaps people need to be gathered in, and when their faith is strong enough, they can then move forward and WALK ON WATER with the Lord.

Or...you could compare the ship to the ark. The Lord said that the last days would be like the days of Noah. Only those who listened to the prophet and got on the ark survived.

Bingo!
Nobody compared following Noah to idolatry. The wicked discount the Lord's church and His prophets every chance they get.

And you, shadow, and your equally (self)righteous co-horts on this internet forum, are the perfect people to determine just who the "wicked" are, correct? I mean, you and your other (self)righteous, and high and holy LDSFF buddies can judge other people's souls and hearts completely - you know everything that has happened to them in their lives - you know every thought/prayer/feeling/etc. that they've ever had - just going by a few words printed online, right? You're just THAT good. Impressive. I'm surprised ya'll haven't been translated yet.

It's not a matter of being self righteous. I've read the scriptures- wicked people always try to lead people away from the Lord's Prophets. Maybe you aught to read the scriptures too and see for yourself.

[Mindfields]

Divine Nepotism - No
Nepotism - Without a doubt

Nepotism has existed in the Church since the beginning. Whether it's sanctioned by God is the real question. Maybe early on it was sanctioned but from Brigham Young on not likely in my opinion.

[buffalo_girl]

As a teenager in the early 1960's, I really had a difficult time with the 'accepted' interpretation of specific 'doctrines' upheld by prominent Church leadership and subsequently upheld by every 'minor' Church leader out 'in the mission field'. Some of those 'doctrines' shook my faith.

Years of searching scripture and asking the Lord specific questions - all of which were/are answered - kept me active in the institution of the Church for better or worse in terms of how I was able to exercise my place and callings given those likewise learning & growing spiritually around me.

I've come to view the Church as a practical lab in which we PRACTICE in the 'physical/mortal world' The Gospel Principles given to us by our Lord .

I also came to finally understand what I did not when given my Patriarchal Blessing at age 15, that is..."many will respect you for the position and stand you will take in defending the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

Somehow, as a disillusioned and increasingly cynical teenager I 'heard' that statement as 'defending the Church' which obvious flaws were indefensible in my idealistic young mind. The Church is NOT the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Maybe handing to us as individuals and as individual families the full responsibility for directing our spiritual development is truly the most important mandate given to us from a Prophet of God.

I have to say, the General Authorities and subsequent small-fry leadership at the local levels have gradually come closer and closer to the answers and loving truths I learned in the privacy of my own imperfect life over these many decades. These men have their callings. I'm not sure they are doing any worse than I am, and they obviously have a whole lot more energy than I do.

[Thinker]

Divine Nepotism - No
Nepotism - Without a doubt

Nepotism has existed in the Church since the beginning. Whether it's sanctioned by God is the real question. Maybe early on it was sanctioned but from Brigham Young on not likely in my opinion.

Yeah, as Shadow mentioned, even Christ chose some of his brothers as apostles. But again, I think a major difference is - are they joining forces to do God’s will or not? Or both? I’d say some good but also some evil... good - in facilitating locally a great sense of community, & evil - in finances and contributing to mental illness by distorted teachings.

[EmmaLee]

Or...you could compare the ship to the ark. The Lord said that the last days would be like the days of Noah. Only those who listened to the prophet and got on the ark survived.

Bingo!
Nobody compared following Noah to idolatry. The wicked discount the Lord's church and His prophets every chance they get.

And you, shadow, and your equally (self)righteous co-horts on this internet forum, are the perfect people to determine just who the "wicked" are, correct? I mean, you and your other (self)righteous, and high and holy LDSFF buddies can judge other people's souls and hearts completely - you know everything that has happened to them in their lives - you know every thought/prayer/feeling/etc. that they've ever had - just going by a few words printed online, right? You're just THAT good. Impressive. I'm surprised ya'll haven't been translated yet.

It's not a matter of being self righteous. I've read the scriptures- wicked people always try to lead people away from the Lord's Prophets. Maybe you aught to read the scriptures too and see for yourself.

Why are you assuming I haven't read the scriptures? Your statement to me is the very description of being self-righteous. I'm sorry you don't see it, but it's obvious there is much you don't see.

[topcat]

It's either a case of self-righteousness or a paid troll who can't defend his positions so he must ridicule the truthful, honest, just and scriptural viewpoints that oppose falsehoods.

To me, it's not painful to admit wrongdoing, or to make concessions, or to acknowledge that I wrote something publicly that doesn't make sense upon reflection or upon it being pointed out to me.

I simply make the correction, and fine tune the direction I'm going, with the goal of always pointing to true north.

The hallmark of leadership in the church or defenders of leadership in the church (on this blog for example) is this: NEVER EVER admit wrongdoing or error.

The ironic thing is that by publicly confessing one's sins and fallibility, the leader (or any person) becomes more influential and beloved.

"To err is human", but there is NEVER even a hint of acknowledgement of prior error.

Even this past Friday's reversal of the policy towards gays and their children contained zero contrition.

The leadership is just acting. It's all theater.

The leadership knows full well that members like their defenders on this blog and throughout the church will defend them so they don't have to defend themselves.

The hollow defense is this:

God works in mysterious ways and we may not understand it now but we will understand it later.

This is called the "put your head in the sand" defense.

And when people who have their head out of the sand explain that it was just an error to begin with, they are labeled as doubters and critics and apostate.

And the leaders happily allow this type of culture to exist, and in fact, CREATE this oppressive culture.

Humility would solve all the problems.

It's not an accident or coincidence that one of the five pillars of the doctrine of Christ, as outlined in 3rd Nephi 11 is humility!

Christ expressed it this way, repetitiously in back-to-back verses:

We must become as a little child!

If we don't, we "can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God."

Never acknowledging fault or wrongdoing or error or fallibility is the exact opposite of the doctrine of Christ.

I will give any humble people here who would like to defend the indefensible to go on record and simply state the fact with no judgment and no malice towards the leaders.

Roughly three and a half years ago the church came out with what Pres Nelson essentially called a revelation from God denying baptism to the children of gay parents. That in itself is completely and a hundred percent contradictory to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This past Friday, the church reversed itself on that false doctrine.

Are there any defenders of the Church here, and we know your names, that would like to acknowledge that the first so-called "revelation" was in fact an error?

Or do you want to go ahead and attack and quibble about how I've asked the question or how I summarized things, continuing to avoid an acknowledgement of any form of error coming from the Brethren?

I predict this opportunity being made available to people here at this moment will be greeted by crickets. But I hope I'm wrong, and I hope some of the most outspoken defenders here, even one, will humble themselves as a little child, following Jesus' doctrine, and make the obvious concession and acknowledgement of error.

[iWriteStuff]

Any chance y'all could stop taking shots at each other?

If you need a time out from accusing each other, might I suggest you spend your time re-watching Conference again. It's fun, you might enjoy it, and nobody gets hurt that way.

[buffalo_girl]

Just now, listening to a Clyde Lewis podcast on the recent Presidential Executive Order regarding preparation for a possible National EMP/CME event, I see a correlation to current Church leadership and prophetic counsel.

https://inhomelandsecurity.com/executiv ... paredness/

Lights out for months on end! Hey, that would surely put all things in their proper perspective, wouldn't it?

Those of us living outside the circle of Divine Nepotism would have to make do with scriptural hardcopy, prayer, fasting, personal revelation, and hopefully enough supplies to last more than 72-hours.

While doing our scripture study, I followed the footnotes in Mark 9 to the Joseph Smith Translation:

JST, Mark 9:40–48. Compare Mark 9:43–48
Jesus compares cutting off an offending hand or foot to discontinuing associations that may lead one astray.

40 Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.
41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.
43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.

So...WHAT the heck does that mean, I wonder?

[topcat]

Just now, listening to a Clyde Lewis podcast on the recent Presidential Executive Order regarding preparation for a possible National EMP/CME event, I see a correlation to current Church leadership and prophetic counsel.

https://inhomelandsecurity.com/executiv ... paredness/

Lights out for months on end! Hey, that would surely put all things in their proper perspective, wouldn't it?

Those of us living outside the circle of Divine Nepotism would have to make do with scriptural hardcopy, prayer, fasting, personal revelation, and hopefully enough supplies to last more than 72-hours.

While doing our scripture study, I followed the footnotes in Mark 9 to the Joseph Smith Translation:

JST, Mark 9:40–48. Compare Mark 9:43–48
Jesus compares cutting off an offending hand or foot to discontinuing associations that may lead one astray.

40 Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.
41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.
43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.

So...WHAT the heck does that mean, I wonder?

JST Mark 9 has been completely blacked out in the Church. You should ask the question, "Why?"

The answer is quite obvious. JST Mark 9 contradicts OD1.

And it completely destroys the FTP (follow the prophet) teaching that is ubiquitous in the Church.

In other words, JST Mark 9 is apostate doctrine!

If Joseph Smith were a member of the church today and taught this he would be excommunicated for teaching it!!

[buffalo_girl]

JST Mark 9 has been completely blacked out in the Church.

When was Mark 9 completely blacked out in the Church?

Granted, the soft bound copy of the Bible I'm presently trashing with dog-earred pages, red pencil markings, and dirty hand discoloration was printed in 2014. Are there NO JST footnotes at the back of your more recently printed Bibles?

In this edition, the JSTranslations too long to place in the footnotes of each individual Old & New Testament chapter are found after the Bible Dictionary; after the "Harmony of the Gospels".

"Seek and ye shall find."

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst- ... l?lang=eng

[topcat]

JST Mark 9 has been completely blacked out in the Church.

When was Mark 9 completely blacked out in the Church?

Granted, the soft bound copy of the Bible I'm presently trashing with dog-earred pages, red pencil markings, and dirty hand discoloration was printed in 2014. Are there NO JST footnotes at the back of your more recently printed Bibles?

In this edition, the JSTranslations too long to place in the footnotes of each individual Old & New Testament chapter are found after the Bible Dictionary; after the "Harmony of the Gospels".

"Seek and ye shall find."

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst- ... l?lang=eng

What I mean by "blacked out" is that it's completely omitted from current teachings. Have you ever heard of it? Have you ever heard it brought up in General Conference, or any Gospel Doctrine class or any seminary class or any priesthood or Relief society lesson, or seen it featured in any manual?

I'm not saying that it has been surreptitiously removed from our cannon like the lectures on faith were in 1921. JST Mark 9 is in my Gospel library. But how many members know about it? Only those who seek and find it.

[buffalo_girl]

What I mean by "blacked out" is that it's completely omitted from current teachings. Have you ever heard of it? Have you ever heard it brought up in General Conference, or any Gospel Doctrine class or any seminary class or any priesthood or Relief society lesson, or seen it featured in any manual?

Nope, I haven't. But, then I just stumbled across it myself and I've been a Primary, SS & RS teacher for many years and I do read my scriptures.

I think there is more spiritual danger in our individual lack of diligence than from 'hot-shot' leadership or lazy Ward teachers, myself included in that indictment.

Keep those hardcopy editions of scripture in a safe place. We may actually be forced to pick them up and use them at some point in these latter days. To me, they are every bit as essential as pure water.

[Sarah]

It's either a case of self-righteousness or a paid troll who can't defend his positions so he must ridicule the truthful, honest, just and scriptural viewpoints that oppose falsehoods.

To me, it's not painful to admit wrongdoing, or to make concessions, or to acknowledge that I wrote something publicly that doesn't make sense upon reflection or upon it being pointed out to me.

I simply make the correction, and fine tune the direction I'm going, with the goal of always pointing to true north.

The hallmark of leadership in the church or defenders of leadership in the church (on this blog for example) is this: NEVER EVER admit wrongdoing or error.

The ironic thing is that by publicly confessing one's sins and fallibility, the leader (or any person) becomes more influential and beloved.

"To err is human", but there is NEVER even a hint of acknowledgement of prior error.

Even this past Friday's reversal of the policy towards gays and their children contained zero contrition.

The leadership is just acting. It's all theater.

The leadership knows full well that members like their defenders on this blog and throughout the church will defend them so they don't have to defend themselves.

The hollow defense is this:

God works in mysterious ways and we may not understand it now but we will understand it later.

This is called the "put your head in the sand" defense.

And when people who have their head out of the sand explain that it was just an error to begin with, they are labeled as doubters and critics and apostate.

And the leaders happily allow this type of culture to exist, and in fact, CREATE this oppressive culture.

Humility would solve all the problems.

It's not an accident or coincidence that one of the five pillars of the doctrine of Christ, as outlined in 3rd Nephi 11 is humility!

Christ expressed it this way, repetitiously in back-to-back verses:

We must become as a little child!

If we don't, we "can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God."

Never acknowledging fault or wrongdoing or error or fallibility is the exact opposite of the doctrine of Christ.

I will give any humble people here who would like to defend the indefensible to go on record and simply state the fact with no judgment and no malice towards the leaders.

Roughly three and a half years ago the church came out with what Pres Nelson essentially called a revelation from God denying baptism to the children of gay parents. That in itself is completely and a hundred percent contradictory to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This past Friday, the church reversed itself on that false doctrine.

Are there any defenders of the Church here, and we know your names, that would like to acknowledge that the first so-called "revelation" was in fact an error?

Or do you want to go ahead and attack and quibble about how I've asked the question or how I summarized things, continuing to avoid an acknowledgement of any form of error coming from the Brethren?

I predict this opportunity being made available to people here at this moment will be greeted by crickets. But I hope I'm wrong, and I hope some of the most outspoken defenders here, even one, will humble themselves as a little child, following Jesus' doctrine, and make the obvious concession and acknowledgement of error.

The answer is pretty simple. Neither policy is a mistake. Just like a parent who decides to restrict phone use, or candy or whatever freedom the parent decides to restrict, for the child's own good, and then at some point gives that child the freedom to have what they want later. Neither is a mistake. It is simply giving the child an option or freedom, or on the other hand, a commandment or restriction.

We need to look at commandments as gifts to keep us safe from bad consequences. The previous policy was meant to protect the child from being in a situation that baptismal covenants could not be kept, and to protect ignorant parents from causing their child to break those covenants. Now that the policy has changed, parents are fully accountable. Children will be more accountable. Good or bad? It's the same choice made in the Garden of Eden. Choose knowledge, choice, and accountability, or choose safety. This doesn't mean we need to break commandments in order to progress, but it does mean that the Lord will give contradictory commandments at times to test where our hearts are in the matter. Is your heart focused on love for God and others, unselfishness, obedience, sacrifice, giving and receiving correctly? That is the real question. Commandments can change, and they can be vague. We are left to choose.

[topcat]

It's either a case of self-righteousness or a paid troll who can't defend his positions so he must ridicule the truthful, honest, just and scriptural viewpoints that oppose falsehoods.

To me, it's not painful to admit wrongdoing, or to make concessions, or to acknowledge that I wrote something publicly that doesn't make sense upon reflection or upon it being pointed out to me.

I simply make the correction, and fine tune the direction I'm going, with the goal of always pointing to true north.

The hallmark of leadership in the church or defenders of leadership in the church (on this blog for example) is this: NEVER EVER admit wrongdoing or error.

The ironic thing is that by publicly confessing one's sins and fallibility, the leader (or any person) becomes more influential and beloved.

"To err is human", but there is NEVER even a hint of acknowledgement of prior error.

Even this past Friday's reversal of the policy towards gays and their children contained zero contrition.

The leadership is just acting. It's all theater.

The leadership knows full well that members like their defenders on this blog and throughout the church will defend them so they don't have to defend themselves.

The hollow defense is this:

God works in mysterious ways and we may not understand it now but we will understand it later.

This is called the "put your head in the sand" defense.

And when people who have their head out of the sand explain that it was just an error to begin with, they are labeled as doubters and critics and apostate.

And the leaders happily allow this type of culture to exist, and in fact, CREATE this oppressive culture.

Humility would solve all the problems.

It's not an accident or coincidence that one of the five pillars of the doctrine of Christ, as outlined in 3rd Nephi 11 is humility!

Christ expressed it this way, repetitiously in back-to-back verses:

We must become as a little child!

If we don't, we "can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God."

Never acknowledging fault or wrongdoing or error or fallibility is the exact opposite of the doctrine of Christ.

I will give any humble people here who would like to defend the indefensible to go on record and simply state the fact with no judgment and no malice towards the leaders.

Roughly three and a half years ago the church came out with what Pres Nelson essentially called a revelation from God denying baptism to the children of gay parents. That in itself is completely and a hundred percent contradictory to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This past Friday, the church reversed itself on that false doctrine.

Are there any defenders of the Church here, and we know your names, that would like to acknowledge that the first so-called "revelation" was in fact an error?

Or do you want to go ahead and attack and quibble about how I've asked the question or how I summarized things, continuing to avoid an acknowledgement of any form of error coming from the Brethren?

I predict this opportunity being made available to people here at this moment will be greeted by crickets. But I hope I'm wrong, and I hope some of the most outspoken defenders here, even one, will humble themselves as a little child, following Jesus' doctrine, and make the obvious concession and acknowledgement of error.

The answer is pretty simple. Neither policy is a mistake. Just like a parent who decides to restrict phone use, or candy or whatever freedom the parent decides to restrict, for the child's own good, and then at some point gives that child the freedom to have what they want later. Neither is a mistake. It is simply giving the child an option or freedom, or on the other hand, a commandment or restriction.

We need to look at commandments as gifts to keep us safe from bad consequences. The previous policy was meant to protect the child from being in a situation that baptismal covenants could not be kept, and to protect ignorant parents from causing their child to break those covenants. Now that the policy has changed, parents are fully accountable. Children will be more accountable. Good or bad? It's the same choice made in the Garden of Eden. Choose knowledge, choice, and accountability, or choose safety. This doesn't mean we need to break commandments in order to progress, but it does mean that the Lord will give contradictory commandments at times to test where our hearts are in the matter. Is your heart focused on love for God and others, unselfishness, obedience, sacrifice, giving and receiving correctly? That is the real question. Commandments can change, and they can be vague. We are left to choose.

Sarah,

I shared your opinion with one of my kids.

Can I persuade you to bounce your opinion off the scriptures? If your opinion contradicts the scriptures, or if the scriptures don't validate or vouch for your opinion, then perhaps abandoning your opinion would be in order.

Your opinion: The previous policy was meant to protect the child from being in a situation that baptismal covenants could not be kept, and to protect ignorant parents from causing their child to break those covenants.

My 14 year-old child's rebuttal to your opinion: Why should your parents' sins affect the child's ability or inability to be baptized? The parents' sins are THEIR sins, not the child's. The child should be able to choose to be baptized regardless of their parents' sins.

Is there any scripture which supports your opinion that Christ forbids baptism to of-age children whose parents are gay?

Conversely, are there scriptures where Christ commands to be baptized and gives the qualifications for being baptized?

I believe you know some of these scriptures. And upon reviewing those scriptures, do you find any justification for maintaining your belief that the Church can make up their own qualifications for baptism?

Members have been taught a very dangerous even heretical and totally apostate tradition, which is that the handbook IS scripture.

I watched a training video a few years ago in which President Monson himself said the handbook is scripture. My jaw hit the floor.

There is a carefully coordinated and orchestrated effort to gaslight the members into believing that not only is the handbook scripture but whatever the Brethren officially say is the mind and will of God. This latest policy change reversal is the latest example in a long line of examples.

The handbook's authors have the corporation in mind. It's a corporate administrative manual written to protect the interests of the corporation. The Brethren want us to conflate the manual with the scriptures. There is no effort made to distinguish between the corporate administrative rules and the gospel. The one attempt when that distinction attempted to be made was in 1984 in General Conference, of all years. The man attempting to make the distinction was Elder Poelman. He's lucky he wasn't excommunicated for the attempt. And the reason he wasn't excommunicated is because he completely stood down and let the church actually produce a secret re-recording of his talk, with the attempt to make the distinction removed from the talk.

I know it's painful to hear these things.

And as I was driving down the road a few minutes ago, I realized the pain and pleasure principle at work with cognitive dissonance or confirmation bias. It's too painful often for members to think that the Church is a corporate empire run by lawyers and that the pretense of being the mind and will of God is just an act to continue the conflation that the Church and the Lord are one in the same. People want to avoid pain, so they force themselves to not think about the obvious conclusion the facts point to. People would rather experience pleasure than pain, so their minds do not accept or interpret the facts that cause pain.