LDS Freedom Forum

Hie'ing to Kolob wrote: ↑April 7th, 2019, 8:00 am

Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 2:22 pm Sure it's possible. Let's say that you did what you shoulda done when President Nelson took the mantle and prayed and received a witness that he is indeed God's prophet. Let's say you did the same for President Monson and got the same answer. Now, would you just willy nilly jump to a conclusion that one of them must have been wrong or would you follow that same pattern to study it out and seek an answer in faith from he who knows much more than you? Might there have been a purpose here that *gasp* you are unable to see or understand?

According to Elder Oaks, you can receive false revelations. He said the only way to know if the revelation you received is legitimate, is to compare it to the direction from the Brethren. If it is different, your revelation is from a false spirit. This creates a situation whereby it is literally impossible to receive from Heavenly Father any revelation that is contridictory to the Brethren. Your suggestion to receive confirmation is a mute point.

Elder Oaks said the only way to know if I have received legitimate revelation is to compare it to the direction of the brethren? How about a link to said quote or a quote here of said quote and we can discuss.

Still, I'm not sure how receiving a confirmation is a, and I believe the word you're looking for is "moot," moot point. If I were to receive a confirmation that the brethren are of God, wouldn't that fall into line into your brief summary of what Elder Oaks allegedly said? Moreover, wouldn't this be the opposite of a chicken and egg scenario where you would have to receive some initial confirmation and testimony of the modern prophets before you can even begin to compare personal revelation to brethren revelation? I'm not seeing how seeking a confirmation is moot even if ... nevermind .. perhaps the thanks to your posts are for some other reason than agreeing with this, whatever this is.

I will make one more attempt at understanding: Are you suggesting I can't receive revelation or that any revelation I receive is somehow invalid? If so, them's be the devil's whispering who teaches us not to pray as it is futile. Or are you simply attacking Elder Oaks rhetorically given the fact we can indeed receive direct revelation?

Let's take a closer look at "moot point" for the sake of clarity:

moot point (plural moot points)

An issue that is subject to, or open for, discussion or debate, to which no satisfactory answer is found; originally, one to be definitively determined by an assembly of the people.

Perhaps you believe no satisfactory answer can be found. I have found a satisfactory answer in the witness I received that President Nelson is a prophet of God. Folks are melting over this policy change seems silly from where I'm standing. Kids of gay parents can be baptized now. Pray about it and seek a confirmation rather than trying to bash other members to seek a justification.

Mark wrote: ↑April 7th, 2019, 9:11 am

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 10:56 pm

Mark wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 10:27 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 8:29 am

The danger to the church is and always has been from individuals inside the church who do not sustain its leaders...again you point fingers in the wrong direction but the adage is true
every time you point your finger there is three pointing back at you.

Pres. Eyring in his General Priesthood talk spoke very pointedly about the need for members to sustain the Lords servants. In fact he quoted George Q Cannon in relating the dangers of becoming critical and finding fault with those called to preside in the church. It is a warning that should cause some self reflection to those who participate in that damaging practice. It grieves the spirit and will cause spiritual darkness. It is a common practice on this forum sadly.

It was also a warning to those who blindly believe that simply because a man has risen through the ranks of a hierarchy that that man is a servant of God.

Mark-I'm really trying to help here. I really believe you are a good person trying to do what's right. There is a lot of cultural baggage in the Church.

Last year or the year before we had a Bishop in the Church who used the 3rd hour to conduct some sort of weird shaming those who don't "accept" LGBTQ, he called in ex members, members living in sin and had them preach from the pulpit how to be more loving and accepting.

Now ask yourself in your heart, what is the Doctrine of Christ? Is the Doctrine of Christ that we are who we are and there is nothing we can do to change it? The resounding answer is NO!

So how can a man who is in the office of a Bishop, be a servant of God when his entire foundation is build upon the sand that people can't change. Is he really God's servant? Sure he might have the office of a Bishop, but is he really His servant?

How did a man who doesn't believe in the Doctrine of Christ (nor care to-apparently) get to be in the office of a Bishop?

It's because some Stake President felt he had an impression (or maybe it just seemed like a good idea b/c he was good friends, or the Bishop knew somebody who knew somebody) and submitted his name to the First Presidency. With all the tasks, unless God tells them yes or no on each Bishop they will approve.

And then because no one wants to rock the boat, the entire congregation says yeah okay sure we sustain you as Bishop. And then the Bishop starts preaching that which is not of God, no one really wants to say anything b/c that's speaking evil against the Lord's anointed don't cha know and the Bishop has the stamp of approval from the SP, the First Presidency, basically from a bunch of individuals who we think have the Spirit and should be able to tell us who is who.

Elder Eyring said something very, very interesting. How do we know they are the Lord's servants. We look for evidences!

It's not a blind faith, it's a willingness to see evidences that they are the Lord's servants. If we find those evidences that is fantastic! We should whole-heartedly sustain them. And what is the evidences, while miracles, tender mercies, etc. are wonderful. The main evidence is do the preach the Doctrine of Christ and do they live it (regardless of their mistakes). The devil is crafty and he can make faux miracles appear-they are always manifested as frauds later on, but for a while they can keep people going. But the Doctrine of Christ-preaching it and trying to live it-you can't fake that. People will see right through it.

But what happens if we don't see the evidences, then we pray that they may be made manifest. How do we know by their words and their actions.

What happens if we see contrary evidences-then we have a duty to reject them.

Elder Oaks gave another great talk about the consequences of choices; he wasn't just talking about individuals but as communities, as wards, branches and even as a Church.

Use the Spirit Mark! What is going to happen now that homosexual marriages are no longer apostates and as you have Bishops and Stake Presidents who no longer believe that men can fundamentally change.

It is okay to reject those who show contrary evidences to being the Lord's servants-regardless of what title they hold. But before you do that-be very certain of the evidences.

You can take isolated incidences like the one you reference about some Bishop somewhere who went off the reservation and did something stupid all day long but that was not the point of Pres Eyrings talk. He is referencing those servants who are given the stewardship of leading and guiding Christs church thru these perilous times. I know of isolated incidences of Bishops all over the world who were excommunicated for all manner of sinful behavior. Does that mean I should start telling others that that church has gone astray and is no longer led by the Savior who uses Prophets and Apostles as His spokesmen because some Bishop somewhere couldn't keep the commandments? Yet many do just that. It is unfair and wrong to take isolated cases and paint them as the rule in today's church. The Lord continues to direct his church through living Prophets and Apostles. We as members should sustain them in their difficult stewardships and pray for their success. Not come on anonymous forums and take pot shots at them which is done on a regular basis here. That has and will continue to drive the spirit away from any person who participates in that type of foolishness.

Maybe it wasn't, maybe it was . . .that's the beauty of being taught by the Spirit. Seeing with your Spiritual Eyes and hearing with your Spiritual Ears requires hard work. It requires a willingness to be open to the Spirit, to test the promptings to see the evidences.

Not everything is as it appears.

To the bold, yes He continues . . .for now. Sustaining them isn't so simple as raising a hand to the square or not raising a hand to the squire. Sustaining is in the heart

A sizable portion of the Church has in many ways already rejected the prophets, not by the raising of a hand, but in their ideologies and philosophies. No Disciple of Christ could ever believe that homosexuality in any form (whether by thought or by deed) is okay. No Disciple of Christ could ever be swayed by the idea that people are just "born that way".

Yet, look at the polls, look at the data, look at what happened in 2008, look at the data of how many members of the rising generation have acquiesced to the modern viewpoint.

I feel as if the Lords servants are really warning us, those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. They are really warning the members. Repent, turn to Christ, understand the Doctrine of Christ and start relying upon your own witnesses of Christ!

I do firmly believe that if we don't repent, the Lord will take His power from a significant portion of His people and they will get to have their party. They will accept homosexual marriages in Temples, they will accept all things and proclaim that God through their prophet and through new revelation has now made it acceptable.

What do the scriptures say when the more part of the people choose wickedness!

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 7th, 2019, 1:47 pm

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 7th, 2019, 1:43 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 7th, 2019, 9:32 am Also meant to add, I think bishops who are faced with such a situation now shoulder a great burden that they didn’t have before. They must strive mightily to exercise true Godly discernment in such instances and to avoid any tendency to rubber stamp such requests. And they must avoid any urge to state or imply, even as an expression of private opinion, that the Church is going to change its doctrines at any time in the future to allow or sanction same-sex 'marriages'. That would not be kind to those involved, most especially, the innocent children of such couples. We already have seen recently, that some bishops have no problem with same-sex 'marriage' and even support it, so it makes one wonder what will be taught to such children in their wards.

Yeap, which ones are servants of God and which ones only hold the title.

When the tide goes out, who is swimming naked.

It's gonna be interesting. I'm excited, I think there is the potential for some really awesome things to happen.

I agree. More than just the potential -- really awesome things are going to happen!

Yes, that is the impression that I'm getting too!

I'm not quite there yet . . .I'm taking my vitamins and getting ready to rock and roll.

John Tavner wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 11:56 am Honestly, they should never have made this a policy in the first place, nor should they implement the same policy on those practicing Polygamy. The requirements for baptism to be made effective are clear and are found in 2 Nephi. Those who add or prevent honest seekers of Christ from entering His gate, will likely have condmenation fall upon their heads unless they repent. For Christ calls ALL who are willing to repent and take upon His name to come unto HIm.

That being said, I'm 99% sure this whole process is happening and is inspired to create division. This division will widen and those who follow the Spirit (notice I didn't say those called by the church as prophets or the one holding the keys, but the Spirit) will be guided correctly and be led out. The divisions are on purpose - there are truths and lies spread within, but this whole thing is an illusion. People are arguing over the wrong things. There are things that are wrong and lots of them, but this is just an illusion to distract. It is the great red herring.

Pay attention to the division and pay attention to your heart. Learn the Doctrine of Christ - that will help us to see their fruits as well as to know when messengers come whether they are of God or of some other source. If we know and have the Doctrine of Christ written upon our hearts and continue to grow closer to the Lord things will work out for us and no matter what we will feel at peace. As anger and contention grows within us, so it does likely two-fold outside of the church. These changes and divisions are there to awaken those who weren't awake. After their awakening they will have a choice - be angry and accuse, or repent and choose to follow the Spirit. Those who follow the Spirit in all things will have peace as the division grows around them. They will be those who are not fighting against Father, mother, brother, sister, city, and state. Rather than yield to the enticing's of the one who uses the flesh against us, we must yield unceasingly to the enticing's of the Holy SPirit and have Christ as our forefront. Things will be flipped on their head.

Interesting consideration. Maybe there are as implied, more sinister goals than what is apparent.

But I have found that waking up to the cult-mentality has caused me to feel obligated to warn my loved ones - who in turn - as they’ve been taught to - have shamed me for questioning religious authorities. Sadly I have found truth in what Christ forsaw...

• Luke 14:26: If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

By “hate” I don’t think he meant to be mean but rather if you had to choose between doing what is of God... or going along with “authority” to please family - then choose God.

Thinker wrote: ↑April 7th, 2019, 6:08 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 11:56 am Honestly, they should never have made this a policy in the first place, nor should they implement the same policy on those practicing Polygamy. The requirements for baptism to be made effective are clear and are found in 2 Nephi. Those who add or prevent honest seekers of Christ from entering His gate, will likely have condmenation fall upon their heads unless they repent. For Christ calls ALL who are willing to repent and take upon His name to come unto HIm.

That being said, I'm 99% sure this whole process is happening and is inspired to create division. This division will widen and those who follow the Spirit (notice I didn't say those called by the church as prophets or the one holding the keys, but the Spirit) will be guided correctly and be led out. The divisions are on purpose - there are truths and lies spread within, but this whole thing is an illusion. People are arguing over the wrong things. There are things that are wrong and lots of them, but this is just an illusion to distract. It is the great red herring.

Pay attention to the division and pay attention to your heart. Learn the Doctrine of Christ - that will help us to see their fruits as well as to know when messengers come whether they are of God or of some other source. If we know and have the Doctrine of Christ written upon our hearts and continue to grow closer to the Lord things will work out for us and no matter what we will feel at peace. As anger and contention grows within us, so it does likely two-fold outside of the church. These changes and divisions are there to awaken those who weren't awake. After their awakening they will have a choice - be angry and accuse, or repent and choose to follow the Spirit. Those who follow the Spirit in all things will have peace as the division grows around them. They will be those who are not fighting against Father, mother, brother, sister, city, and state. Rather than yield to the enticing's of the one who uses the flesh against us, we must yield unceasingly to the enticing's of the Holy SPirit and have Christ as our forefront. Things will be flipped on their head.

Interesting consideration. Maybe there are as implied, more sinister goals than what is apparent.

But I have found that waking up to the cult-mentality has caused me to feel obligated to warn my loved ones - who in turn - as they’ve been taught to - have shamed me for questioning religious authorities. Sadly I have found truth in what Christ forsaw...

• Luke 14:26: If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

By “hate” I don’t think he meant to be mean but rather if you had to choose between doing what is of God... or going along with “authority” to please family - then choose God.

I see history repeating itself over and over again on attitudes like those above. Open rebellion and fault finding against established church hierchy has always led to a separation. However that separation process occurs when rank and file members decide they know more than church leadership on this subject or that subject and decide to "question" those called into leadership and then invariably if they are not very careful start to openly discount and reject leaderships rights as proper stewards in leading the church of God by directing its affairs.

It occured over and over again in scripture and since the restoration every Prophet from Joseph on down has warned against it. Pride is always at the center of it. Members don't agree with what the leadership decides to do in their stewardship capacities and before you know it those leaders are being harangued and criticized by those members who want to have it their way. It's like a spoiled child who doesn't want to do as the parent requires in the home and decides to leave home because they didn't get their own way.

That's how Snuffer and his followers got rolling. It's how Harmston and his followers got rolling. It's how Sidney Rigdon and his followers got rolling after Joseph's death. The beat goes on and on and on. Nothing changes. The adversary's plans to seperate Saints from their leaders operates like a broken record. The wheat and tares parable in full view for all to see. "Beware the bitter fruits of apostasy".

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 7?lang=eng

Mark wrote: ↑April 8th, 2019, 9:39 am

Thinker wrote: ↑April 7th, 2019, 6:08 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 11:56 am Honestly, they should never have made this a policy in the first place, nor should they implement the same policy on those practicing Polygamy. The requirements for baptism to be made effective are clear and are found in 2 Nephi. Those who add or prevent honest seekers of Christ from entering His gate, will likely have condmenation fall upon their heads unless they repent. For Christ calls ALL who are willing to repent and take upon His name to come unto HIm.

That being said, I'm 99% sure this whole process is happening and is inspired to create division. This division will widen and those who follow the Spirit (notice I didn't say those called by the church as prophets or the one holding the keys, but the Spirit) will be guided correctly and be led out. The divisions are on purpose - there are truths and lies spread within, but this whole thing is an illusion. People are arguing over the wrong things. There are things that are wrong and lots of them, but this is just an illusion to distract. It is the great red herring.

Pay attention to the division and pay attention to your heart. Learn the Doctrine of Christ - that will help us to see their fruits as well as to know when messengers come whether they are of God or of some other source. If we know and have the Doctrine of Christ written upon our hearts and continue to grow closer to the Lord things will work out for us and no matter what we will feel at peace. As anger and contention grows within us, so it does likely two-fold outside of the church. These changes and divisions are there to awaken those who weren't awake. After their awakening they will have a choice - be angry and accuse, or repent and choose to follow the Spirit. Those who follow the Spirit in all things will have peace as the division grows around them. They will be those who are not fighting against Father, mother, brother, sister, city, and state. Rather than yield to the enticing's of the one who uses the flesh against us, we must yield unceasingly to the enticing's of the Holy SPirit and have Christ as our forefront. Things will be flipped on their head.

Interesting consideration. Maybe there are as implied, more sinister goals than what is apparent.

But I have found that waking up to the cult-mentality has caused me to feel obligated to warn my loved ones - who in turn - as they’ve been taught to - have shamed me for questioning religious authorities. Sadly I have found truth in what Christ forsaw...

• Luke 14:26: If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

By “hate” I don’t think he meant to be mean but rather if you had to choose between doing what is of God... or going along with “authority” to please family - then choose God.

I see history repeating itself over and over again on attitudes like those above. Open rebellion and fault finding against established church hierchy has always led to a separation. However that separation process occurs when rank and file members decide they know more than church leadership on this subject or that subject and decide to "question" those called into leadership and then invariably if they are not very careful start to openly discount and reject leaderships rights as proper stewards in leading the church of God by directing its affairs.

It occured over and over again in scripture and since the restoration every Prophet from Joseph on down has warned against it. Pride is always at the center of it. Members don't agree with what the leadership decides to do in their stewardship capacities and before you know it those leaders are being harangued and criticized by those members who want to have it their way. It's like a spoiled child who doesn't want to do as the parent requires in the home and decides to leave home because they didn't get their own way.

That's how Snuffer and his followers got rolling. It's how Harmston and his followers got rolling. It's how Sidney Rigdon and his followers got rolling after Joseph's death. The beat goes on and on and on. Nothing changes. The adversary's plans to seperate Saints from their leaders works like a broken record. The wheat and tares parable in full view for all to see. "Beware the bitter fruits of apostasy".

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 7?lang=eng

You know what is interesting, is that I don't feel the need to call you a tare, but you seem to feel the need to imply I am a tare. I would like for you to show me scriptures any scripture even that shows there should be more requirements to baptism that what has been said. It is also foolhardy to completely embrace what a leader tells them. If we believe as Joseph said that a prophet is only a prophet when acting as a prophet, then that implies there are moments when they are not acting as prophets. There are two churches only. IF we look at this logically, and I will repeat, two churches only teh Church of the Lamb of God and the Church of the Devil. If we can agree that not all members of teh current organization are not all members of the church of the lamb of God, then they must be members of the church of the devil. D&C 10:67-69 shows us who are members of His church and who aren't. Our leader is Christ. I don't know how we created this false dichotamy in which either someone follows their leader or they aren't righteous. That is emphatically 100% not true. The Scriptures are literally replete with examples. We are told to be called by Christ's name if we are not called by His name, AND do not answer to His name by which He calls us by, then we are sheep to the devil (Alma 5).

You are absolutely correct that pride is a danger - to be clear, I don't have the same insidious view of the church as Thinker has, but I do know as I've drawn closer to the Lord and learned directly from Him and by His Spirit that there are things that are taught that are not always true. I also know in the past I have taught things that aren't true. This is why we should be careful not to throw stones, but there is one thing clear - the Doctrine of Christ is what is to be taught, and if it is not taught correctly or by Him, then it is not of Him. Nephi tells us to submit to the Spirit- not to him as a leader, Nephi tells us to take upon ourselves the Lord's name, not Nephi's name.

For many people they need to remain in the boat and remain steadfast and they need milk, that is ok. However, eventually if they do not develop a direct relationship with God through the Spirit and eventually directly with God as directed by the Spirit they will miss out (2 Nephi31&32). Their testimonies will not be based upon Christ, but upon their leaders and they are they who are of "Paul", "Apollo", "Cephas" "Nelson" "Mormon", "Nephi", etc... We are to build ourselves upon the rock of revelation, and upon Christ, if we do not it is on a sandy foundation. Why is is called a rock? because it is solid. These winds and storms that fall on the church don't affect me, because I trust in the Lord, because I'm building my foundation upon Him. For others, if it is built upon their leaders they will be shaken to and fro by and wind of doctrine expressed by a leader whether right or wrong. Mormonism is seeking truth wherever we find it. It is not believing we have al lthe truth - it's funny because that in itself is pride. We have the ability to find and receive all truth, but that comes through humility and seeking God and receiving revelation from Him for ourselves. What will happen if we no longer have access to a prophet because of war, or riots or contention? What rock will you stand on? Will we be able to make our own decisions? You rely on the Bishop? What if the presiding leaders die or move? What will we do? Christ is our rock and we must learn to stand firmly on personal revelation from Him, or we will fall in coming years.

Pride is also the belief that we ourselves can not speak or receive revelation from God, thinking that we can't be prophets ourselves. Why is that pride? Because we are telling God what He can and can't do with us. Moses said that he wished all were prophets. Moses also invited all the Israelite upon the mountain to see the face of God themselves, but they were afraid. I'm afraid that we are selling our birthright for a pot of porridge. All because we "fear" to be wrong. Learning revelation takes hope and faith - hope is believing and faith is asking. As we believe and ask we will be guided. THe key is as you said to be humble. We must be willing to give the Lord everything including pre-conceived notions about ourselves. This is submission. If God tells us to do anything we must be willing to do so. I myself fail at this often, but I am trying. When we fully submit to the Lord and become as a little child/endure to the end - because if you read the scriptures they are the same. When we finally do that, then the heavens are opened to us and we can receive from God Himself through His Spirit. We can be born again, we can move forward and speak with the tongue of angels. If any of us have not spoken with the tongue of Angels then we need to repent. We are not on the straight and narrow path. When one truly begins to learn from the LOrd they rejoice in all that also learn from the Lord - there is no "pride" or thinking one is better. Having been caught up and ensnared by some false traditions and cultures my life, how can I think I am better? If I were to do so, I would be damned myself. No, my goal is to merely teach the Doctrine of Christ and to teach people to avoid contention (which as the Savior said is not of Him). My entire previous post dealt with avoiding contention. We must remove anger from our hearts and there will be greater division as time goes on, more than the church has experienced in many years. The key is to follow the SPirit, because 1) we will have our own testimony built upon the Rock and 2) we will be able to avoid contention and remain humble followers of Christ.

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 7th, 2019, 2:04 pm

Mark wrote: ↑April 7th, 2019, 9:11 am

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 10:56 pm

Mark wrote: ↑April 6th, 2019, 10:27 pm

Pres. Eyring in his General Priesthood talk spoke very pointedly about the need for members to sustain the Lords servants. In fact he quoted George Q Cannon in relating the dangers of becoming critical and finding fault with those called to preside in the church. It is a warning that should cause some self reflection to those who participate in that damaging practice. It grieves the spirit and will cause spiritual darkness. It is a common practice on this forum sadly.

It was also a warning to those who blindly believe that simply because a man has risen through the ranks of a hierarchy that that man is a servant of God.

Mark-I'm really trying to help here. I really believe you are a good person trying to do what's right. There is a lot of cultural baggage in the Church.

Last year or the year before we had a Bishop in the Church who used the 3rd hour to conduct some sort of weird shaming those who don't "accept" LGBTQ, he called in ex members, members living in sin and had them preach from the pulpit how to be more loving and accepting.

Now ask yourself in your heart, what is the Doctrine of Christ? Is the Doctrine of Christ that we are who we are and there is nothing we can do to change it? The resounding answer is NO!

So how can a man who is in the office of a Bishop, be a servant of God when his entire foundation is build upon the sand that people can't change. Is he really God's servant? Sure he might have the office of a Bishop, but is he really His servant?

How did a man who doesn't believe in the Doctrine of Christ (nor care to-apparently) get to be in the office of a Bishop?

It's because some Stake President felt he had an impression (or maybe it just seemed like a good idea b/c he was good friends, or the Bishop knew somebody who knew somebody) and submitted his name to the First Presidency. With all the tasks, unless God tells them yes or no on each Bishop they will approve.

And then because no one wants to rock the boat, the entire congregation says yeah okay sure we sustain you as Bishop. And then the Bishop starts preaching that which is not of God, no one really wants to say anything b/c that's speaking evil against the Lord's anointed don't cha know and the Bishop has the stamp of approval from the SP, the First Presidency, basically from a bunch of individuals who we think have the Spirit and should be able to tell us who is who.

Elder Eyring said something very, very interesting. How do we know they are the Lord's servants. We look for evidences!

It's not a blind faith, it's a willingness to see evidences that they are the Lord's servants. If we find those evidences that is fantastic! We should whole-heartedly sustain them. And what is the evidences, while miracles, tender mercies, etc. are wonderful. The main evidence is do the preach the Doctrine of Christ and do they live it (regardless of their mistakes). The devil is crafty and he can make faux miracles appear-they are always manifested as frauds later on, but for a while they can keep people going. But the Doctrine of Christ-preaching it and trying to live it-you can't fake that. People will see right through it.

But what happens if we don't see the evidences, then we pray that they may be made manifest. How do we know by their words and their actions.

What happens if we see contrary evidences-then we have a duty to reject them.

Elder Oaks gave another great talk about the consequences of choices; he wasn't just talking about individuals but as communities, as wards, branches and even as a Church.

Use the Spirit Mark! What is going to happen now that homosexual marriages are no longer apostates and as you have Bishops and Stake Presidents who no longer believe that men can fundamentally change.

It is okay to reject those who show contrary evidences to being the Lord's servants-regardless of what title they hold. But before you do that-be very certain of the evidences.

You can take isolated incidences like the one you reference about some Bishop somewhere who went off the reservation and did something stupid all day long but that was not the point of Pres Eyrings talk. He is referencing those servants who are given the stewardship of leading and guiding Christs church thru these perilous times. I know of isolated incidences of Bishops all over the world who were excommunicated for all manner of sinful behavior. Does that mean I should start telling others that that church has gone astray and is no longer led by the Savior who uses Prophets and Apostles as His spokesmen because some Bishop somewhere couldn't keep the commandments? Yet many do just that. It is unfair and wrong to take isolated cases and paint them as the rule in today's church. The Lord continues to direct his church through living Prophets and Apostles. We as members should sustain them in their difficult stewardships and pray for their success. Not come on anonymous forums and take pot shots at them which is done on a regular basis here. That has and will continue to drive the spirit away from any person who participates in that type of foolishness.

Maybe it wasn't, maybe it was . . .that's the beauty of being taught by the Spirit. Seeing with your Spiritual Eyes and hearing with your Spiritual Ears requires hard work. It requires a willingness to be open to the Spirit, to test the promptings to see the evidences.

Not everything is as it appears.

To the bold, yes He continues . . .for now. Sustaining them isn't so simple as raising a hand to the square or not raising a hand to the squire. Sustaining is in the heart

A sizable portion of the Church has in many ways already rejected the prophets, not by the raising of a hand, but in their ideologies and philosophies. No Disciple of Christ could ever believe that homosexuality in any form (whether by thought or by deed) is okay. No Disciple of Christ could ever be swayed by the idea that people are just "born that way".

Yet, look at the polls, look at the data, look at what happened in 2008, look at the data of how many members of the rising generation have acquiesced to the modern viewpoint.

I feel as if the Lords servants are really warning us, those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. They are really warning the members. Repent, turn to Christ, understand the Doctrine of Christ and start relying upon your own witnesses of Christ!

I do firmly believe that if we don't repent, the Lord will take His power from a significant portion of His people and they will get to have their party. They will accept homosexual marriages in Temples, they will accept all things and proclaim that God through their prophet and through new revelation has now made it acceptable.

What do the scriptures say when the more part of the people choose wickedness!

You worry to much. What if what if what if.. That is a dead end game. Live in the present. We have a living Prophet who receives revelation and guides the Saviors church with the help of 2 able and inspired counselors and 12 living Apostles. They continue to hold the necessary Priesthood keys which connect earth and heaven. Look for the good in the kingdom. Don't worry about what could possibly happen. Deal with that if it ever DOES happen. It probably never will to the degree you fear so don't get caught up with dwelling on the negatives. Stop worrying about what other members might or might not choose to do and just build the kingdom yourself and pray for those who are given important stewardship responsibilities in that kingdom. The Lord is in control. His church will prevail. Israel will be gathered and Zion will be established. Don't find yourself on the outs with the Lords established hierarchy in His church. This is the dispensation of the fullness of times. Be part of the growth.

topcat wrote: ↑April 4th, 2019, 10:58 am Reversing themselves again from the debacle of several years ago that their focus groups couldn't even predict the social outrage. This announcement will be met with great applaud.

One step closer to recognizing gay marriage.

You know it's coming.

Was it just me or did others notice how leaders brought attention to women over and over again? It seemed as if an announcement was made to make sure women in the viewing audience felt covered.

That said, I have noticed that it tends to be active Mormon women who have started to, or already have, embraced how special and sweet it would be to welcome gay and lesbian members to all blessings and privileges of the Gospel.

As leaders have probably noticed, they have lost most male members under 40. They may also have noticed that in many (most?) LDS families of active members 30 - 70 that women tend to rule the roost. So if there is a question of how much tithing to pay then wives will generally be more liberal, and if there is a question of being "mean" to those who may be on the fringes of our religion then women will either get the husbands to be quiet around the kids or the meeting house.

And as young women find there is a shortage of active (or even inactive) men to marry many will become angry and resentful. Yes, they will come to Church, and they will pay a full tithe, but they will push the Church to more and more liberalism.

Wait and see.

John Tavner wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 11:56 am There are two churches only. IF we look at this logically, and I will repeat, two churches only teh Church of the Lamb of God and the Church of the Devil. If we can agree that not all members of teh current organization are not all members of the church of the lamb of God, then they must be members of the church of the devil. D&C 10:67-69 shows us who are members of His church and who aren't. Our leader is Christ. I don't know how we created this false dichotamy in which either someone follows their leader or they aren't righteous. That is emphatically 100% not true. The Scriptures are literally replete with examples. We are told to be called by Christ's name if we are not called by His name, AND do not answer to His name by which He calls us by, then we are sheep to the devil (Alma 5).

Hi John, I appreciate your perspectives. I agree with much of what you recently mentioned, except the above. I point it out because I think it’s rooted in a significant issue that affects many: bi-polar or...

• polarized thinking, which is “forcing complex issues into “either/or” pairings.”

Let’s say Brother Einstein fulfills his callings, attends all church meetings, pays tithes and offerings to the church, ponderizes where the financial black hole leads, does genealogy and temple work, prays, does FHE, studies scriptures, but is financially dishonest with his fellow men - and lies about it... Is he of God’s church of the Devil’s - or a bit of both?
Or let’s say Sister Cleopatra can check everything off her long lds list, but yells and cusses at her kids? In which church does she belong?

I do agree that if Brother Muhammad followed Christ but not lds leaders when they contradicted Christ - that it is a false dichotomy to suggest that he is a “tare” or “apostate” and other ad hominem attacks.
-
RE: this topic: Would you expand on what you thought might be behind this “distraction”?

It seems that a characteristic of religions down here is that as soon as they are formed, the leaders and members start spending a lot of time discussing and labeling who is not worthy. - Instead of working hard on becoming more receptive to the Word, and focusing on and working to eliminate those patterns in themselves as individuals that slow that process.

Thinker wrote: ↑April 8th, 2019, 5:47 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 11:56 am There are two churches only. IF we look at this logically, and I will repeat, two churches only teh Church of the Lamb of God and the Church of the Devil. If we can agree that not all members of teh current organization are not all members of the church of the lamb of God, then they must be members of the church of the devil. D&C 10:67-69 shows us who are members of His church and who aren't. Our leader is Christ. I don't know how we created this false dichotamy in which either someone follows their leader or they aren't righteous. That is emphatically 100% not true. The Scriptures are literally replete with examples. We are told to be called by Christ's name if we are not called by His name, AND do not answer to His name by which He calls us by, then we are sheep to the devil (Alma 5).

Hi John, I appreciate your perspectives. I agree with much of what you recently mentioned, except the above. I point it out because I think it’s rooted in a significant issue that affects many: bi-polar or...

• polarized thinking, which is “forcing complex issues into “either/or” pairings.”

Let’s say Brother Einstein fulfills his callings, attends all church meetings, pays tithes and offerings to the church, ponderizes where the financial black hole leads, does genealogy and temple work, prays, does FHE, studies scriptures, but is financially dishonest with his fellow men - and lies about it... Is he of God’s church of the Devil’s - or a bit of both?
Or let’s say Sister Cleopatra can check everything off her long lds list, but yells and cusses at her kids? In which church does she belong?

I do agree that if Brother Muhammad followed Christ but not lds leaders when they contradicted Christ - that it is a false dichotomy to suggest that he is a “tare” or “apostate” and other ad hominem attacks.
-
RE: this topic: Would you expand on what you thought might be behind this “distraction”?

That's fine - I'm just quoting scripture, you get the choice of believing it or not.

The process by which I got to the answer of the question you are asking is coming from a very different perspective than yourself - and I don't mean that critically of you, but the premise on which I base the answer is one that you reject.

Mark wrote: ↑April 8th, 2019, 9:39 am I see history repeating itself over and over again on attitudes like those above. Open rebellion and fault finding against established church hierchy has always led to a separation. However that separation process occurs when rank and file members decide they know more than church leadership on this subject or that subject and decide to "question" those called into leadership and then invariably if they are not very careful start to openly discount and reject leaderships rights as proper stewards in leading the church of God by directing its affairs.

It occured over and over again in scripture and since the restoration every Prophet from Joseph on down has warned against it. Pride is always at the center of it. Members don't agree with what the leadership decides to do in their stewardship capacities and before you know it those leaders are being harangued and criticized by those members who want to have it their way. It's like a spoiled child who doesn't want to do as the parent requires in the home and decides to leave home because they didn't get their own way.

That's how Snuffer and his followers got rolling. It's how Harmston and his followers got rolling. It's how Sidney Rigdon and his followers got rolling after Joseph's death. The beat goes on and on and on. Nothing changes. The adversary's plans to seperate Saints from their leaders operates like a broken record. The wheat and tares parable in full view for all to see. "Beware the bitter fruits of apostasy".

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 7?lang=eng

"it is our nature to suspend disbelief only so much in the face of overwhelming controverting evidence. Our early childhood belief in Santa Claus is perhaps a salient example. Once the evidence becomes overwhelmingly apparent, we abandon the belief, because it is replaced with knowledge". There is no adversary plan by Satan! People are just too smart to believe that God and Jesus are homophobic, polygamist, etc. It's a dead give away for many exmos that the current/former prophets are a fraud because God and Jesus would never be so homophobic etc. If you think breaking free from the lies and illusions of religion, and learning to think for yourself instead of blindly following fraudulent leaders, is like being a "spoiled child", then yerly yerly I say unto you, life is short, go out and partake of the fruits and wines of the world and spoil thyself. I'm surprised that anybody in the 21st century thinks that to not blindly follow people who claim to talk to God and Jesus are like a spoiled child. I think that's sad, funny, and most of all, ironic.

Happiness comes in many forms. Your happiness is not mine, and the opposite is also true. I would prefer that you not force your way of life on homosexuals or anybody that doesn't fit your mold. The shame culture that exists among Mormons is unchristlike and disappointing for such supposed loving and kind people. When I left the church, a lot of members including family attempted to shame me for it, trying to make me feel bad and not strong enough etc. To me, when members shame others instead of respecting their beliefs and free will, they're making themselves and the church as a whole look bad. As Mr. Oaks once said, "If you don't fit the mold 100%, you're out!"

...it is our nature to suspend disbelief only so much in the face of overwhelming controverting evidence. Our early childhood belief in Santa Claus is perhaps a salient example. Once the evidence becomes overwhelmingly apparent, we abandon the belief, because it is replaced with knowledge.

Unfortunately, much of our LDS Church history has been somewhat inaccessible or deemphasized by the
Church, applying the reasoning that it is not faith promoting, or it would be too confusing for the Saints
to assimilate or process. The Church is exactly right. It is not faith promoting, and it is confusing to
understand, in the context of the way our past LDS leaders and Church historians have weaved the
narrative. Today’s religious leaders, in all faiths, can no longer cherry-pick only the lovely verses from
the Bible or other scriptures to make the case for their topic du jour. The context of all scripture, or
historical stories and anecdotes, can be tested right there in the Church pew with an immediate Google
search. And if not checked there at Church, any inquisitor can do full and comprehensive research of
the claims made when they get home, all in the span of an evening.

Source: Anonymous Apostate Apostle http://confessionofanapostle.ch

"The Apostle's letter really is real and people need to pay attention to the points brought up by Toast."

Sincerely, The Abominable Snowman

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 11:04 pm "The Apostle's letter really is real and people need to pay attention to the points brought up by Toast."

Sincerely, The Abominable Snowman

It's an excellent letter regardless of it's legitimacy.

^^^^ reminds me of RatherGate

It's an excellent letter regardless of it's legitimacy.

Do you believe Twilight is based on a true story?

Toast wrote: ↑April 12th, 2019, 1:57 am

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 11th, 2019, 11:04 pm "The Apostle's letter really is real and people need to pay attention to the points brought up by Toast."

Sincerely, The Abominable Snowman

It's an excellent letter regardless of it's legitimacy.

Reminds me of Thinker and her Gay Manifesto.