LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 4:38 pm**

brlenox wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:36 pm
dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:28 pm At least other religions have a mechanism whereby splits can occur, the UMC, if congregations want to split from the UMC they are welcome to do so and they keep their buildings. Because it's locally controlled and owned, splits can happen.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMHgiwemNG0[/youtube]

Are you trying to say that the sky isn't falling? Have you listened to the KSL news video? Do you understand what is being promoted and accepted in LDS wards and stakes?

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 4:50 pm**

sushi_chef wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 3:50 pm after all in latter-day-saints-dom current president is everything, having the master key, supersedes all the past....

ushering into the historic hinge point where things are moved furthering forward, stands tall and invites all saints, saying, welcome, welcome to the new ecumenistic world order....

: kryUX8g.jpg (96.42 KiB) Viewed 630 times

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 4:50 pm**

LucianAMD wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:33 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:15 pm
LucianAMD wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 3:54 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 2:22 pm

Sure it's possible. Let's say that you did what you shoulda done when President Nelson took the mantle and prayed and received a witness that he is indeed God's prophet. Let's say you did the same for President Monson and got the same answer. Now, would you just willy nilly jump to a conclusion that one of them must have been wrong or would you follow that same pattern to study it out and seek an answer in faith from he who knows much more than you? Might there have been a purpose here that *gasp* you are unable to see or understand?

Or you could just rely on your own pride er understanding. Those who immediately jump all over the Lord's anointed with bitterness and anger are just showing the fruits of he who rewards you no good thing.
What if after honestly seeking, the answer received was that they hold no such mantle? That was my answer. The fruits of the church and leadership that I've seen in the last ten years have been troubling at best.
And that same spirit has led these folks to post angry, bitter remarks about the church leadership?
No one said it did. The connection you are trying to make is a logical fallacy.

I'll happily post my logic even though you've not even begun to back up your accusation of fallcial shenanigans.

President Monson was a prophet.
President Nelson is a prophet.
Maaaaaybe there is a good reason God has inspired these men to make a policy and then adjust that policy especially if you consider that in no way does either policy embrace homosexuality.
Those who pretend either policy embraces homosexuality are engaged in a lie.

There is one logic train for you. Here is another

The same folks who have been attacking the church and its leadership all along are feigning shock at this policy change happen to be the same folks breaking the word of wisdom, the law of tithing, and generally living life after their own desires and yet are taking the high road of justification here. Only this high road suspiciously requires a lot of bitterness maintenance, just like lies require maintenance to be sustained.

I'm not saying all folks who are attacking the leadership have been on this same path for as long as the others, but mark my words. If you are just now discovering "enlightenment" that the brethren are lost laced in bitterness, this will be an itch that won't ever go away. Soon smoking won't seem like a bad idea and worse.

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 4:51 pm**

The Church needs to split; I would say it needs to split post-haste, but I think there are a few things that need to happen beforehand.

Why do you think there is such an effort of re-emphasis of the name of the Church. Why is there such pleading to "stay in the boat".

It's all about legitimacy. Who holds the "keys". Because as soon as the Church officially accepts homosexual marriages, the wrath of members will be turned on those who don't "follow the prophet".

Think about it, what do you do with two groups who believe in Temples, BoM, DC, Joseph Smith, etc. but one believes that homosexuals should be sealed together in the Temple and one does not?

The ability to actually build temples requires a substantial amount of money, time, energy, and effort. None of the break-off Churches have built more than one or two (maybe) temples.

It is a war and whichever side wins, vanquishes the other.

There are only two possibilities of this outcome. IMO the best solution is for the Church to MASSIVELY expand temples, basically put a temple in every stake center and then split.

The 2nd solution is (IMO is the worst outcome) is that we will continue along this path of slow acquiescence until those who don't are all weeded out.

The biggest problem with the break-off groups is that they have no legitimacy claim. The only one with possible legitimacy is the Bickertonites (which oddly enough have the website domain: "thechurchofjesuschrist.org") . . .except they don't have temples.

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 4:53 pm**

brlenox wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:36 pm
dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:28 pm At least other religions have a mechanism whereby splits can occur, the UMC, if congregations want to split from the UMC they are welcome to do so and they keep their buildings. Because it's locally controlled and owned, splits can happen.
Chicken Little...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMHgiwemNG0[/youtube]

You know rather than acknowledge that there are members of the Church who have firm testimonies in Christ who are very concerned you'd rather mock.

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm**

Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:50 pm
LucianAMD wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:33 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:15 pm
LucianAMD wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 3:54 pm

What if after honestly seeking, the answer received was that they hold no such mantle? That was my answer. The fruits of the church and leadership that I've seen in the last ten years have been troubling at best.
And that same spirit has led these folks to post angry, bitter remarks about the church leadership?
No one said it did. The connection you are trying to make is a logical fallacy.
I'll happily post my logic even though you've not even begun to back up your accusation of fallcial shenanigans.

President Monson was a prophet.
President Nelson is a prophet.
Maaaaaybe there is a good reason God has inspired these men to make a policy and then adjust that policy especially if you consider that in no way does either policy embrace homosexuality.
Those who pretend either policy embraces homosexuality are engaged in a lie.

There is one logic train for you. Here is another

The same folks who have been attacking the church and its leadership all along are feigning shock at this policy change happen to be the same folks breaking the word of wisdom, the law of tithing, and generally living life after their own desires and yet are taking the high road of justification here. Only this high road suspiciously requires a lot of bitterness maintenance, just like lies require maintenance to be sustained.

I'm not saying all folks who are attacking the leadership have been on this same path for as long as the others, but mark my words. If you are just now discovering "enlightenment" that the brethren are lost laced in bitterness, this will be an itch that won't ever go away. Soon smoking won't seem like a bad idea and worse.

Say what? Yes because the only thing preventing me from smoking is because the Church told me it was bad.

Come on man, who I am (or more accurately) who I have become isn't going to change just because the Word of Wisdom goes away.

Their "own desires" . . . you know all I really care about in life is living my life how God wants me to live it, to come to know Christ and then share that with others.

Sure, we all live after our "own desires", you live after your own desire, so does the homosexual, we all do. The key to live is figuring out how to make God's desires our desires not b/c he said so but that it is a part of us.

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 5:15 pm**

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:50 pm
LucianAMD wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:33 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:15 pm

And that same spirit has led these folks to post angry, bitter remarks about the church leadership?
No one said it did. The connection you are trying to make is a logical fallacy.
I'll happily post my logic even though you've not even begun to back up your accusation of fallcial shenanigans.

President Monson was a prophet.
President Nelson is a prophet.
Maaaaaybe there is a good reason God has inspired these men to make a policy and then adjust that policy especially if you consider that in no way does either policy embrace homosexuality.
Those who pretend either policy embraces homosexuality are engaged in a lie.

There is one logic train for you. Here is another

The same folks who have been attacking the church and its leadership all along are feigning shock at this policy change happen to be the same folks breaking the word of wisdom, the law of tithing, and generally living life after their own desires and yet are taking the high road of justification here. Only this high road suspiciously requires a lot of bitterness maintenance, just like lies require maintenance to be sustained.

I'm not saying all folks who are attacking the leadership have been on this same path for as long as the others, but mark my words. If you are just now discovering "enlightenment" that the brethren are lost laced in bitterness, this will be an itch that won't ever go away. Soon smoking won't seem like a bad idea and worse.
Say what? Yes because the only thing preventing me from smoking is because the Church told me it was bad.

Come on man, who I am (or more accurately) who I have become isn't going to change just because the Word of Wisdom goes away.

Their "own desires" . . . you know all I really care about in life is living my life how God wants me to live it, to come to know Christ and then share that with others.

Sure, we all live after our "own desires", you live after your own desire, so does the homosexual, we all do. The key to live is figuring out how to make God's desires our desires not b/c he said so but that it is a part of us.

I’ve never disagreed so vehemently with someone at some times while gleefully agreeing him/her at other times like I do with you

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 5:20 pm**

Stahura wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:15 pm
dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:50 pm
LucianAMD wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:33 pm

No one said it did. The connection you are trying to make is a logical fallacy.
I'll happily post my logic even though you've not even begun to back up your accusation of fallcial shenanigans.

President Monson was a prophet.
President Nelson is a prophet.
Maaaaaybe there is a good reason God has inspired these men to make a policy and then adjust that policy especially if you consider that in no way does either policy embrace homosexuality.
Those who pretend either policy embraces homosexuality are engaged in a lie.

There is one logic train for you. Here is another

The same folks who have been attacking the church and its leadership all along are feigning shock at this policy change happen to be the same folks breaking the word of wisdom, the law of tithing, and generally living life after their own desires and yet are taking the high road of justification here. Only this high road suspiciously requires a lot of bitterness maintenance, just like lies require maintenance to be sustained.

I'm not saying all folks who are attacking the leadership have been on this same path for as long as the others, but mark my words. If you are just now discovering "enlightenment" that the brethren are lost laced in bitterness, this will be an itch that won't ever go away. Soon smoking won't seem like a bad idea and worse.
Say what? Yes because the only thing preventing me from smoking is because the Church told me it was bad.

Come on man, who I am (or more accurately) who I have become isn't going to change just because the Word of Wisdom goes away.

Their "own desires" . . . you know all I really care about in life is living my life how God wants me to live it, to come to know Christ and then share that with others.

Sure, we all live after our "own desires", you live after your own desire, so does the homosexual, we all do. The key to live is figuring out how to make God's desires our desires not b/c he said so but that it is a part of us.
I’ve never disagreed so vehemently with someone at some times while gleefully agreeing him/her at other times like I do with you

Lol . . I was going to reply to that other thread w/ torch before it was close.

But yes, I can say the same thing with you too! I really loved your last comment there. I've had similar but different experiences than you.

Differences in personalities, I'm a bulldog. It's hard for me to understand and be tactful.

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 5:31 pm**

What was the reason for the 2015 policy to begin with? Since when did the church take withholding something to a kid because of what their parents did? They didn't take that stance with the children of divorcees, murderers or convicts.So why this?

By the way, the church should really take caution when it comes to giving one single inch on this sexual perversion issue. I didn't agree with the 2015 policy, but these sex deviants are out to chip away at anything that doesnt support their filthy agenda. This reversal is not good. It is seen as a sign of weakening and like a shark sees blood in the water. They are going to come at the church now with full force.

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 5:32 pm**

I was going to ignore this, but since you've been thanked twice now for this ridiculous post, I'll go ahead and break it down.

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm Say what? Yes because the only thing preventing me from smoking is because the Church told me it was bad.

Really? So you follow man's wisdom or God's here in regards to smoking? You do realize D&C 89 is a revelation ... or do you avoid smoking because the surgeon general? Do you ... smoke? Do you realize how many LDS people apostatize because they want to drink, smoke, sleep around, etc. and claim they're leaving the church because they're enlightened? This is such a problem you get folks who think its their job to police "enlightenment" because they think its the mistaken "enlightenment" that causes folks to apostatize when it was just good old fashioned natural man / carnal desires.

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm Come on man, who I am (or more accurately) who I have become isn't going to change just because the Word of Wisdom goes away.

The word of wisdom goes away? Huh? Angrily and bitterly attacking the church is a bad path where you will find yourself living after your own desires is the point not the word of wisdom going away.

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm Their "own desires" . . . you know all I really care about in life is living my life how God wants me to live it, to come to know Christ and then share that with others.

Really? That's why you're going around insulting people, insulting their beliefs, and stirring folks up to anger and contention ... to come to know Christ and share that with others? You at least mention your lack of tact in a follow up post here, but that is a troll's excuse to keep being a troll as though "I can't help it - lack of tact and all."

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm Sure, we all live after our "own desires", you live after your own desire, so does the homosexual, we all do. The key to live is figuring out how to make God's desires our desires not b/c he said so but that it is a part of us.

Again, how you got any thanks after especially after this statement is beyond me. "To make God's desires our desires" is about as backwards a statement as one can make about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To make our desires align with God's desires is what we ought to seek for.

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 5:34 pm**

Stahura wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:15 pm
dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:50 pm
LucianAMD wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:33 pm

No one said it did. The connection you are trying to make is a logical fallacy.
I'll happily post my logic even though you've not even begun to back up your accusation of fallcial shenanigans.

President Monson was a prophet.
President Nelson is a prophet.
Maaaaaybe there is a good reason God has inspired these men to make a policy and then adjust that policy especially if you consider that in no way does either policy embrace homosexuality.
Those who pretend either policy embraces homosexuality are engaged in a lie.

There is one logic train for you. Here is another

The same folks who have been attacking the church and its leadership all along are feigning shock at this policy change happen to be the same folks breaking the word of wisdom, the law of tithing, and generally living life after their own desires and yet are taking the high road of justification here. Only this high road suspiciously requires a lot of bitterness maintenance, just like lies require maintenance to be sustained.

I'm not saying all folks who are attacking the leadership have been on this same path for as long as the others, but mark my words. If you are just now discovering "enlightenment" that the brethren are lost laced in bitterness, this will be an itch that won't ever go away. Soon smoking won't seem like a bad idea and worse.
Say what? Yes because the only thing preventing me from smoking is because the Church told me it was bad.

Come on man, who I am (or more accurately) who I have become isn't going to change just because the Word of Wisdom goes away.

Their "own desires" . . . you know all I really care about in life is living my life how God wants me to live it, to come to know Christ and then share that with others.

Sure, we all live after our "own desires", you live after your own desire, so does the homosexual, we all do. The key to live is figuring out how to make God's desires our desires not b/c he said so but that it is a part of us.
I’ve never disagreed so vehemently with someone at some times while gleefully agreeing him/her at other times like I do with you

Haha yeah Stahura? Why don't you respond to my breakdown of this post above since this one you're thanking with a laughter a post that is about as nonsensical as can be. Perhaps you can shed some light here why you felt it was appropriate to thank and laugh.

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 5:38 pm**

Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:32 pm I was going to ignore this, but since you've been thanked twice now for this ridiculous post, I'll go ahead and break it down.

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm Say what? Yes because the only thing preventing me from smoking is because the Church told me it was bad.
Really? So you follow man's wisdom or God's here in regards to smoking? You do realize D&C 89 is a revelation ... or do you avoid smoking because the surgeon general? Do you ... smoke? Do you realize how many LDS people apostatize because they want to drink, smoke, sleep around, etc. and claim they're leaving the church because they're enlightened? This is such a problem you get folks who think its their job to police "enlightenment" because they think its the mistaken "enlightenment" that causes folks to apostatize when it was just good old fashioned natural man / carnal desires.

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm Come on man, who I am (or more accurately) who I have become isn't going to change just because the Word of Wisdom goes away.
The word of wisdom goes away? Huh? Angrily and bitterly attacking the church is a bad path where you will find yourself living after your own desires is the point not the word of wisdom going away.

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm Their "own desires" . . . you know all I really care about in life is living my life how God wants me to live it, to come to know Christ and then share that with others.
Really? That's why you're going around insulting people, insulting their beliefs, and stirring folks up to anger and contention ... to come to know Christ and share that with others? You at least mention your lack of tact in a follow up post here, but that is a troll's excuse to keep being a troll as though "I can't help it - lack of tact and all."

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm Sure, we all live after our "own desires", you live after your own desire, so does the homosexual, we all do. The key to live is figuring out how to make God's desires our desires not b/c he said so but that it is a part of us.
Again, how you got any thanks after especially after this statement is beyond me. "To make God's desires our desires" is about as backwards a statement as one can make about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To make our desires align with God's desires is what we ought to seek for.

What is wrong with the "to make God's desires our desires"? It's like saying to make what God desires us to do, become the the things we desire to do. It's not backwards.

Why does a difference of opinion make you so angry, Alaris?

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 5:45 pm**

Alaris, have you watched what KSL TV, owned by the Church, put on their newscast yesterday, reported by someone from Deseret News, also owned by the Church? This is happening in LEHI, UT, in a county that is 85% LDS.

https://ksltv.com/411166/church-allowin ... wsource=cl

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 6:00 pm**

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:38 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:32 pm I was going to ignore this, but since you've been thanked twice now for this ridiculous post, I'll go ahead and break it down.

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm Say what? Yes because the only thing preventing me from smoking is because the Church told me it was bad.
Really? So you follow man's wisdom or God's here in regards to smoking? You do realize D&C 89 is a revelation ... or do you avoid smoking because the surgeon general? Do you ... smoke? Do you realize how many LDS people apostatize because they want to drink, smoke, sleep around, etc. and claim they're leaving the church because they're enlightened? This is such a problem you get folks who think its their job to police "enlightenment" because they think its the mistaken "enlightenment" that causes folks to apostatize when it was just good old fashioned natural man / carnal desires.

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm Come on man, who I am (or more accurately) who I have become isn't going to change just because the Word of Wisdom goes away.
The word of wisdom goes away? Huh? Angrily and bitterly attacking the church is a bad path where you will find yourself living after your own desires is the point not the word of wisdom going away.

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm Their "own desires" . . . you know all I really care about in life is living my life how God wants me to live it, to come to know Christ and then share that with others.
Really? That's why you're going around insulting people, insulting their beliefs, and stirring folks up to anger and contention ... to come to know Christ and share that with others? You at least mention your lack of tact in a follow up post here, but that is a troll's excuse to keep being a troll as though "I can't help it - lack of tact and all."

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm Sure, we all live after our "own desires", you live after your own desire, so does the homosexual, we all do. The key to live is figuring out how to make God's desires our desires not b/c he said so but that it is a part of us.
Again, how you got any thanks after especially after this statement is beyond me. "To make God's desires our desires" is about as backwards a statement as one can make about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To make our desires align with God's desires is what we ought to seek for.
What is wrong with the "to make God's desires our desires"? It's like saying to make what God desires us to do, become the the things we desire to do. It's not backwards.

Why does a difference of opinion make you so angry, Alaris?

Angry? I'd think you'd know me better by now. I'm not the one thanking angry folks' posts and posting angrily about the church leaders. Making God's desires ... You can't make God's desires anything! Language matters and reveals the heart more than folks realize.

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 6:01 pm**

Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:50 pm
LucianAMD wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:33 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:15 pm
LucianAMD wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 3:54 pm

What if after honestly seeking, the answer received was that they hold no such mantle? That was my answer. The fruits of the church and leadership that I've seen in the last ten years have been troubling at best.
And that same spirit has led these folks to post angry, bitter remarks about the church leadership?
No one said it did. The connection you are trying to make is a logical fallacy.
I'll happily post my logic even though you've not even begun to back up your accusation of fallcial shenanigans.

President Monson was a prophet.
President Nelson is a prophet.
Maaaaaybe there is a good reason God has inspired these men to make a policy and then adjust that policy especially if you consider that in no way does either policy embrace homosexuality.
Those who pretend either policy embraces homosexuality are engaged in a lie.

There is one logic train for you. Here is another

The same folks who have been attacking the church and its leadership all along are feigning shock at this policy change happen to be the same folks breaking the word of wisdom, the law of tithing, and generally living life after their own desires and yet are taking the high road of justification here. Only this high road suspiciously requires a lot of bitterness maintenance, just like lies require maintenance to be sustained.

I'm not saying all folks who are attacking the leadership have been on this same path for as long as the others, but mark my words. If you are just now discovering "enlightenment" that the brethren are lost laced in bitterness, this will be an itch that won't ever go away. Soon smoking won't seem like a bad idea and worse.

I think in the course of this thread you have proven the point. You have gotten angry it seems in some of these posts. Does that mean this same spirit that led you to anger is the same one responsible for all your previous spiritual experiences? Of course not. That would be absurd. Just as absurd as your logic.

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 6:02 pm**

LucianAMD wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 6:01 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:50 pm
LucianAMD wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:33 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:15 pm

And that same spirit has led these folks to post angry, bitter remarks about the church leadership?
No one said it did. The connection you are trying to make is a logical fallacy.
I'll happily post my logic even though you've not even begun to back up your accusation of fallcial shenanigans.

President Monson was a prophet.
President Nelson is a prophet.
Maaaaaybe there is a good reason God has inspired these men to make a policy and then adjust that policy especially if you consider that in no way does either policy embrace homosexuality.
Those who pretend either policy embraces homosexuality are engaged in a lie.

There is one logic train for you. Here is another

The same folks who have been attacking the church and its leadership all along are feigning shock at this policy change happen to be the same folks breaking the word of wisdom, the law of tithing, and generally living life after their own desires and yet are taking the high road of justification here. Only this high road suspiciously requires a lot of bitterness maintenance, just like lies require maintenance to be sustained.

I'm not saying all folks who are attacking the leadership have been on this same path for as long as the others, but mark my words. If you are just now discovering "enlightenment" that the brethren are lost laced in bitterness, this will be an itch that won't ever go away. Soon smoking won't seem like a bad idea and worse.
I think in the course of this thread you have proven the point. You have gotten angry it seems in some of these posts. Does that mean this same spirit that led you to anger is the same one responsible for all your previous spiritual experiences? Of course not. That would be absurd. Just as absurd as your logic.

This is the second time you've called out my logic without any specificity whatsoever. That about as easy as paying tithing after all my bills are paid, wouldn't you say?

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 6:07 pm**

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:16 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 3:39 pm Maybe it wasn't the "wrong" road. Let's say this new policy was given in place of the old one. Could giving an inch to the gay community in 2015 may have been the wrong timing? Could the stricter policy in 2015 have produced a different reaction to this new policy given in 2019? Could there be other reasons our mortal minds can't even dream up?
I've got no problem with God reversing course. However, when he does reverse course, it is laid out in Scripture why it was reversed.

Abraham and Isaac-reverse course, a lamb was there
Moses 10 commandments, people were wicked.
Zion's camp reversal-people were wicked.

Here . . .no reason given and people who believe either way can claim God wanted it their way.

Mark my words, the amount of persecution that will come from defenders of the Institution will be intense and will dwarf this by magnitudes when the Church officially allows homosexuals in the Church.

The Church needs to split, but it can't because of our theology. Pro and anti homosexual marriage are battling over legitimacy. Each side claiming the other side is wrong, each side claiming they have revelations, personal scripture, etc. to back up their side.

And because both believe in Prophets, both believe in Scripture, (or claim to) it's a war. Whichever side wins gets to completely vanquish the other side as illegitimate. Why do they get to vanquish the other side? Because the members who are either on the fence or don't care will simply tell the losing side "get with the program, follow the Prophet, he won't lead us astray"

https://ksltv.com/411166/church-allowin ... wsource=cl

People should really look at the body language of these two guys. I've studied body language and these guys are suuuuuch snakes. Ignore the words and look at the body language.

When the one guy talks his eyes are half-open like little slits, he talks with his head tilted at an angle. It's like an animal which is eyeing you and bobbing and weaving seeing which way is best to strike at you. When he starts off his eyebrows are up giving the "believe me, believe me you must believe me look".

Then at the other guys says has made me "feel kind of relived" and gives a facial expression like an excited child for what might happen.

He says "we recognize there are blessings, from living within the church and the gospel, and we honor those values and moral and feel like the church teaches those values and morals and that it's a good principle for them to learn as well".

There is a reason why homosexual couples WANT to be in the Church, it is to force the issue. It is to take over the Church.

Mark my words, when the Church accepts homosexual marriage officially, anyone who does not fall in line will be persecuted.

Pepe feels your pain:

: IMG_1893.jpg (189.58 KiB) Viewed 431 times

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 6:09 pm**

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:45 pm Alaris, have you watched what KSL TV, owned by the Church, put on their newscast yesterday, reported by someone from Deseret News, also owned by the Church? This is happening in LEHI, UT, in a county that is 85% LDS.

https://ksltv.com/411166/church-allowin ... wsource=cl

I watched the video. When you say "this is happening in Lehi" what do you mean? I'm not following what the implications here that you are alluding to.

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 6:25 pm**

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 6:27 pm**

Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:32 pm Really? So you follow man's wisdom or God's here in regards to smoking? You do realize D&C 89 is a revelation ... or do you avoid smoking because the surgeon general? Do you ... smoke? Do you realize how many LDS people apostatize because they want to drink, smoke, sleep around, etc. and claim they're leaving the church because they're enlightened? This is such a problem you get folks who think its their job to police "enlightenment" because they think its the mistaken "enlightenment" that causes folks to apostatize when it was just good old fashioned natural man / carnal desires.

Alaris,

I do my best to follow Scripture. I don't always get it right, but that is my guide. My rod is the Word of God. I believe in all Scripture currently revealed (OT, NT, BoM, DC, PoGP). As I learn more based upon the entire canon of Scripture I change my life.

I know it's really hard to fallow and understand, but there are members of the Church who believe in all of that and are reading the signs of what is going on.

Why would I drink or smoke, or sleep around? The Church could tomorrow say it's okay to drink, I still wouldn't drink. The Church could get rid of DC 89, I still wouldn't drink. I don't drink b/c it is a part of who I am.

I make a conscience decision not to drink b/c I don't like the effects of alcohol. I don't sleep around because of who I am; all religion could go away and so what. I still wouldn't sleep around.

Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:32 pm The word of wisdom goes away? Huh? Angrily and bitterly attacking the church is a bad path where you will find yourself living after your own desires is the point not the word of wisdom going away.

I'm actually more sad than anything else and resigned to what will occur.

Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:32 pm Really? That's why you're going around insulting people, insulting their beliefs, and stirring folks up to anger and contention ... to come to know Christ and share that with others? You at least mention your lack of tact in a follow up post here, but that is a troll's excuse to keep being a troll as though "I can't help it - lack of tact and all."

I really don't follow here.

Unfortunately, you are further solidifying what will happen. Individuals hold more allegiance to an institution rather than to God and when the institution bends to socio-political pressure any who don't bend with it will be persecuted.

Alaris, I believe you are a good person; a voice of warning wake up to what is occurring.

The federal government is attempting to include sexual orientation in non-discrimination laws.
The State of Utah almost passed a law banning any type of help for individuals seeking to rid themselves of homosexuality. The Church did not oppose this law. It will pass next year.
The Church as an organization will accept homosexual marriages in the future (I keep wanting to put homosexuality, but it has already accepted that).

The pew research states that around 40% of members accept homosexuality (in some form).

It's coming; and the question is what will you do when it hits.

One way or another homosexual marriages in the Church will be in my lifetime. It will either be by force, like 1890 or by acceptance like 1979, but make no mistake it is coming.

I doubt, however, when it occurs there will be an OD3 (unless there is a split). . .it will probably occur like most of these changes have occurred.

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 6:34 pm**

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 6:27 pm One way or another homosexual marriages in the Church will be in my lifetime. It will either be by force, like 1890 or by acceptance like 1979, but make no mistake it is coming.

Thank you for the thoughtful post. I could see the government (gadiantons) trying to force gay marriage acceptance. #LOVEWON was such a rich hashtag, because the gay agenda never stops until they are knocking on your door demanding active participation.

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 6:27 pm I doubt, however, when it occurs there will be an OD3 (unless there is a split). . .it will probably occur like most of these changes have occurred.

OD3?

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 6:35 pm**

Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 6:34 pm
dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 6:27 pm One way or another homosexual marriages in the Church will be in my lifetime. It will either be by force, like 1890 or by acceptance like 1979, but make no mistake it is coming.
Thank you for the thoughtful post. I could see the government (gadiantons) trying to force gay marriage acceptance. #LOVEWON was such a rich hashtag, because the gay agenda never stops until they are knocking on your door demanding active participation.

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 6:27 pm I doubt, however, when it occurs there will be an OD3 (unless there is a split). . .it will probably occur like most of these changes have occurred.
OD3?

Official Declaration in the D&C. There is an OD1 (polygamy ended) and an OD2 (blacks receive Priesthood) already.

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 7:15 pm**

ajax wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 9:57 am
Michelle wrote: ↑April 4th, 2019, 5:24 pm "Follow the Prophet no matter what."
And this is how the church gets away with it. This is a sinister ideology ingrained and made into song that our primary kids sing that strips them of the ability to think and act independently, rationally and reasonable for themselves. They are not self governing. They focus on the opinions of officeholders and tie themselves to that. They've given up their agency.

I care not one wit what the policy is, (I think nobody should be baptized until they can make a reasonable decision as adults), but I find it fascinating observing the flipping and flopping and the rationalizations which occur which all boil down to the FTP principle. And this isn't the first time.

I wasn't quoting a primary lesson. I was sharing in quotes what the Spirit told me. I still pray for my own witness, even while obeying the revelation I already received for this particular time.

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 7:19 pm**

Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:34 pm
Stahura wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:15 pm
dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:50 pm

I'll happily post my logic even though you've not even begun to back up your accusation of fallcial shenanigans.

President Monson was a prophet.
President Nelson is a prophet.
Maaaaaybe there is a good reason God has inspired these men to make a policy and then adjust that policy especially if you consider that in no way does either policy embrace homosexuality.
Those who pretend either policy embraces homosexuality are engaged in a lie.

There is one logic train for you. Here is another

The same folks who have been attacking the church and its leadership all along are feigning shock at this policy change happen to be the same folks breaking the word of wisdom, the law of tithing, and generally living life after their own desires and yet are taking the high road of justification here. Only this high road suspiciously requires a lot of bitterness maintenance, just like lies require maintenance to be sustained.

I'm not saying all folks who are attacking the leadership have been on this same path for as long as the others, but mark my words. If you are just now discovering "enlightenment" that the brethren are lost laced in bitterness, this will be an itch that won't ever go away. Soon smoking won't seem like a bad idea and worse.
Say what? Yes because the only thing preventing me from smoking is because the Church told me it was bad.

Come on man, who I am (or more accurately) who I have become isn't going to change just because the Word of Wisdom goes away.

Their "own desires" . . . you know all I really care about in life is living my life how God wants me to live it, to come to know Christ and then share that with others.

Sure, we all live after our "own desires", you live after your own desire, so does the homosexual, we all do. The key to live is figuring out how to make God's desires our desires not b/c he said so but that it is a part of us.
I’ve never disagreed so vehemently with someone at some times while gleefully agreeing him/her at other times like I do with you
Haha yeah Stahura? Why don't you respond to my breakdown of this post above since this one you're thanking with a laughter a post that is about as nonsensical as can be. Perhaps you can shed some light here why you felt it was appropriate to thank and laugh.

Sure

My response is really made in response to the context of that single post, I didn’t really pay attention much to the preceding posts.

I really don’t think there was any revelation involved in those policy changes, they were made in the same way other churches and businesses make their own policies(IMO).

I agreed with his statement that I am who I am and I do(and don’t do) what I do not solely because of the scriptures. If certain commandments were removed it wouldn’t change who I am and what I refrain from doing. I agreed with him on that.

In another post I essentially said the same thing he said when he says “we all live after our own desires”. I agree, we all do this to some extent and it’s spot on that the key is making Gods desires our desires.

Again, my perspective is coming from having only read his post and the one he directly responded to, I didn’t look at the whole context.

I’m Just laughing because I’ve had big disagreements with him multiple times but other times it’s as if he copies and pastes something I’ve said and puts his flavor on it!

Posted: **April 5th, 2019, 7:23 pm**

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:20 pm
Stahura wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 5:15 pm
dezNatDefender wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:59 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑April 5th, 2019, 4:50 pm

I'll happily post my logic even though you've not even begun to back up your accusation of fallcial shenanigans.

President Monson was a prophet.
President Nelson is a prophet.
Maaaaaybe there is a good reason God has inspired these men to make a policy and then adjust that policy especially if you consider that in no way does either policy embrace homosexuality.
Those who pretend either policy embraces homosexuality are engaged in a lie.

There is one logic train for you. Here is another

The same folks who have been attacking the church and its leadership all along are feigning shock at this policy change happen to be the same folks breaking the word of wisdom, the law of tithing, and generally living life after their own desires and yet are taking the high road of justification here. Only this high road suspiciously requires a lot of bitterness maintenance, just like lies require maintenance to be sustained.

I'm not saying all folks who are attacking the leadership have been on this same path for as long as the others, but mark my words. If you are just now discovering "enlightenment" that the brethren are lost laced in bitterness, this will be an itch that won't ever go away. Soon smoking won't seem like a bad idea and worse.
Say what? Yes because the only thing preventing me from smoking is because the Church told me it was bad.

Come on man, who I am (or more accurately) who I have become isn't going to change just because the Word of Wisdom goes away.

Their "own desires" . . . you know all I really care about in life is living my life how God wants me to live it, to come to know Christ and then share that with others.

Sure, we all live after our "own desires", you live after your own desire, so does the homosexual, we all do. The key to live is figuring out how to make God's desires our desires not b/c he said so but that it is a part of us.
I’ve never disagreed so vehemently with someone at some times while gleefully agreeing him/her at other times like I do with you
Lol . . I was going to reply to that other thread w/ torch before it was close.

But yes, I can say the same thing with you too! I really loved your last comment there. I've had similar but different experiences than you.

Differences in personalities, I'm a bulldog. It's hard for me to understand and be tactful.

Haha, I’m with you there. Took me about 1000 posts here and a couple breaks to learn to be a poodle

sometimes.

If this forum had Downvotes like Reddit I’m sure many of my threads would have been buried in them

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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents