Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

[Lizzy60]

Has God never said to go left before right? Might he whose thoughts are higher than ours have a purpose here?

Isn't it just as possible to say the leaders were wrong before or are wrong now?

Sure it's possible. Let's say that you did what you shoulda done when President Nelson took the mantle and prayed and received a witness that he is indeed God's prophet. Let's say you did the same for President Monson and got the same answer. Now, would you just willy nilly jump to a conclusion that one of them must have been wrong or would you follow that same pattern to study it out and seek an answer in faith from he who knows much more than you? Might there have been a purpose here that *gasp* you are unable to see or understand?

Or you could just rely on your own pride er understanding. Those who immediately jump all over the Lord's anointed with bitterness and anger are just showing the fruits of he who rewards you no good thing.

See what you did there? If we have prayed and received a different answer to a current policy decision, we are guilty of pride, bitterness, and anger. Our revelation must come from the devil if it doesn't match the consensus-revelation from the Top 15.

This is cult behavior, and branding dissenters is not Christlike.

[ajax]

Has God never said to go left before right? Might he whose thoughts are higher than ours have a purpose here?

Never - but here is a story from Elder Holland where the Lord said go right before you go left.

There are times when the only way to get from A to C is by way of B. Having grown up in Southern Utah and enjoying all the wonders and beauties of Southern Utah and Northern Arizona, I wanted to introduce my son to that, and I wanted to show him places that I had seen and enjoyed when I was his age, so his mother packed a little lunch for us and we took his grandfather's pickup truck and headed South onto what we call the Old Arizona Strip. Noting that the Sun was going down we decided we better get back. But we came back to a particular fork in the road, really the only one, that at that point was absolutely unrecognizable. I asked my son to pray about which road to take, and he felt strongly that we should go to the right, and I did as well, and we went to the right and it was a dead end. We went four or five or six hundred yards and it was an absolute dead-end, clearly the wrong road. We turned around, came back out, took the other road and clearly the road to the left was the correct road. Somewhere along the way Matt said, ""Dad, why did we feel, after praying about it, that the right road was the proper one to take, the correct one to take, and it wasn't?"" And I said, ""I think that the Lord, His wish for us there, and his answer to our prayer was to get us on the right road as quickly as possible with some reassurance, with some understanding, that we were on the right road and we didn't have to worry about it, and in this case, the easiest way to do that was to let us go 400 yards or 500 yards on the wrong road, and very quickly know, without a doubt, that it was the wrong road, and therefore with equal certainty with equal conviction that the other one was the right road."" I have absolute certain knowledge, perfect knowledge, that God loves us. He is good, He is our Father, and He expects us to pray, and trust, and be believing, and not give up, and not panic, and not retreat, and not jump ship, when something doesn't seem to be going just right. We stay in, we keep working, we keep believing, keep trusting, following that same path and we will live to fall in His arms and feel His embrace and hear Him say, ""I told you that it'd be okay, I told you it would be all right."(Jeffrey R. Holland.)

Heh - that's exactly the story I was thinking of! I know the Lord has done this with me many times. In fact, I know he's led me to erroneous conclusions because that conclusion elicited a response or an action that was indeed his will. Then, with the benefit of hindsight there are all sorts of lessons learned about me and my inability to receive more direct guidance in faith.

Fascinating. Radio Free Mormon dissects this story in his podcast:
https://radiofreemormon.org/2017/05/ext ... ong-roads/

Here is the description:
"Today RFM explores what it means to walk the logic all the way out on situations when God gives a revelation dictating the wrong answer as the right answer so that you as the receiver of a wrong answer in revelation will eventually learn the right answer by realizing God had given you the wrong answer in order to give you the right answer."

[Alaris]

I call it a “policy” because it’s going to be in the handbook, right? It could be a revelation, or not—in any case it’s still a policy. I could be wrong. Corrections welcome. “Revelation” or not, it doesn’t matter to me.

If I was caught explaining the reason for the change, that’s just my own bad behavior... I was just trying to guess what its effects would be. It is not advised to question the motives and methods of the Lord’s anointed.

Regardless, I have no issues with the change, I trust the Lord’s authorized servants.

Not trying to start an argument here, trying to understand how you reconcile "trusting the Lord's authorized servants" with "Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?"

Isn't it incumbent on any man/men claiming to speak for God to reflect God's character in his/their teachings?

Then it is incumbent on us to ascertain when God's character is being taught and reflect that in our own lives?

Doesn't trusting a servant because he is authorized just remove the trial of faith in God?

Perhaps you see it differently. I'd be interested in your view.

I know you weren't asking me but ...

This could easily be a part of the sifting process in conjunction with the endowment changes. Those who "know better" will react a certain way - those who don't seek the Lord's mind and will in humility, etc. Allow the adversary to lay a groundwork of political correctness as a preemptive attack on the end times revelations on gender identity, being to reveal such, and watch the proud melt away. Make a policy change and then a few year later reverse and watch more proud melt away like a candle on an Arizona summer sidewalk. Those who knew better about the endowment change just have even more reason now to know better than to trust the Lord's anointed (lol.) Sorry....I shouldn't make fun.

Has the church embraced homosexuality? For crying out loud, NO!

[Lizzy60]

This could just as easily be a part of the sifting process where we are being tested on whether we will open our hearts and minds to listen to what God wants to tell us, rather than leaning on the arm of flesh, because they are "authorized."

Seriously, they have told us that they KNOW the mind and will of the Lord when 15 men agree. That's patently unscriptural.

I ONLY trust the Lord.

[Alaris]

Has God never said to go left before right? Might he whose thoughts are higher than ours have a purpose here?

Isn't it just as possible to say the leaders were wrong before or are wrong now?

Sure it's possible. Let's say that you did what you shoulda done when President Nelson took the mantle and prayed and received a witness that he is indeed God's prophet. Let's say you did the same for President Monson and got the same answer. Now, would you just willy nilly jump to a conclusion that one of them must have been wrong or would you follow that same pattern to study it out and seek an answer in faith from he who knows much more than you? Might there have been a purpose here that *gasp* you are unable to see or understand?

Or you could just rely on your own pride er understanding. Those who immediately jump all over the Lord's anointed with bitterness and anger are just showing the fruits of he who rewards you no good thing.

See what you did there? If we have prayed and received a different answer to a current policy decision, we are guilty of pride, bitterness, and anger. Our revelation must come from the devil if it doesn't match the consensus-revelation from the Top 15.

This is cult behavior, and branding dissenters is not Christlike.

My response is "cult behavior?" OK, I can own my mistake in assuming those who are in their anger throws may indeed have sought an answer in humility. Clearly the fruits are on display. It's my job to be Christlike while others throw tantrums and assume their reaction is fit for public consumption.

How many folks here who are using this policy change to attack the church have sought an answer in faith and humility? Certainly those fruits are not on display (Galatians 5 iirc.) Perhaps you have Lizzy60 - that's between you and the Lord. Might the Lord tell you this is all wrong and the church is falling apart? Sure, maybe. His thoughts and ways are higher than mine after all. I wouldn't presume an answer I receive is a cookie cutter response for everyone, do you? My point is this news is about a day old and how many folks here have jumped to a conclusion publicly with potentially harmful accusations that have done their due diligence to suss it out. Have you Lizzy60? I'm still sussing it out myself, but given the history of testimony I have of the prophets, I won't jump to "THE COJCOLDS IS THE DEVIL AND CAUSING PEOPLE TO COMMIT SUICIDE!"

Let's assume these angry folks are right. Is this how we convince others by stirring them up to anger? Can we reach a holy destination by the devil's road?

[Alaris]

This could just as easily be a part of the sifting process where we are being tested on whether we will open our hearts and minds to listen to what God wants to tell us, rather than leaning on the arm of flesh, because they are "authorized."

Seriously, they have told us that they KNOW the mind and will of the Lord when 15 men agree. That's patently unscriptural.

I ONLY trust the Lord.

I agree with all but that middle statement - please show how that's patently unscriptural - or elaborate.

As for the rest, I could not agree more. Good on you Lizzy60 to seek the mind of the Lord on all matters. I humbly suggest you ask yourself if you're intermixing or displacing any bitter feelings into this policy change as I've seen such cloud the judgement of noble souls such as yourself.

[Robin Hood]

Members were ex'd and there were even suicides over the announcement in late 2015...

Evidence please.

[Col. Flagg]

This was announced yesterday and we have 8 pages of folks knee-jerk attack or defense? How many have sought out an answer in humility here I wonder? How many have received one?

Members were ex'd and there were even suicides over the announcement in late 2015 and now the church does a 180 with no apology to those who were so adversely affected and impacted by it? Anyone who thinks this is 'revelation' is kidding themselves... church policy decisions at the behest of lawyers because of litigation concerns is messing with peoples' lives and it is alarming!

So one knee-jerk reaction here that confirms your bias. Thanks for pointing that out.

Lol.

[Lizzy60]

3 Nephi 27:

10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.

11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.

12 For their works do follow them, for it is because of their works that they are hewn down; therefore remember the things that I have told you.

[Alaris]

Clearly no bitterness.

[lemuel]

Has God never said to go left before right? Might he whose thoughts are higher than ours have a purpose here?

https://www.lds.org/study/new-era/2005/ ... n?lang=eng
https://radiofreemormon.org/2017/05/ext ... ong-roads/

Maybe God told Nelson to go down the wrong road so he'd know when he reached the dead end that the other road was the right road.

[lemuel]

Has God never said to go left before right? Might he whose thoughts are higher than ours have a purpose here?

https://www.lds.org/study/new-era/2005/ ... n?lang=eng
https://radiofreemormon.org/2017/05/ext ... ong-roads/

Maybe God told Nelson to go down the wrong road so he'd know when he reached the dead end that the other road was the right road.

I posted that ironically before I saw that someone posted it unironically. Sorry.

Never - but here is a story from Elder Holland where the Lord said go right before you go left.

There are times when the only way to get from A to C is by way of B. Having grown up in Southern Utah and enjoying all the wonders and beauties of Southern Utah and Northern Arizona, I wanted to introduce my son to that, and I wanted to show him places that I had seen and enjoyed when I was his age, so his mother packed a little lunch for us and we took his grandfather's pickup truck and headed South onto what we call the Old Arizona Strip. Noting that the Sun was going down we decided we better get back. But we came back to a particular fork in the road, really the only one, that at that point was absolutely unrecognizable. I asked my son to pray about which road to take, and he felt strongly that we should go to the right, and I did as well, and we went to the right and it was a dead end. We went four or five or six hundred yards and it was an absolute dead-end, clearly the wrong road. We turned around, came back out, took the other road and clearly the road to the left was the correct road. Somewhere along the way Matt said, ""Dad, why did we feel, after praying about it, that the right road was the proper one to take, the correct one to take, and it wasn't?"" And I said, ""I think that the Lord, His wish for us there, and his answer to our prayer was to get us on the right road as quickly as possible with some reassurance, with some understanding, that we were on the right road and we didn't have to worry about it, and in this case, the easiest way to do that was to let us go 400 yards or 500 yards on the wrong road, and very quickly know, without a doubt, that it was the wrong road, and therefore with equal certainty with equal conviction that the other one was the right road."" I have absolute certain knowledge, perfect knowledge, that God loves us. He is good, He is our Father, and He expects us to pray, and trust, and be believing, and not give up, and not panic, and not retreat, and not jump ship, when something doesn't seem to be going just right. We stay in, we keep working, we keep believing, keep trusting, following that same path and we will live to fall in His arms and feel His embrace and hear Him say, ""I told you that it'd be okay, I told you it would be all right."(Jeffrey R. Holland.)

[dezNatDefender]

Perception is reality:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/05/us/mormo ... index.html

While the hard-line 2015 policy made it impossible for bishops to allow the baptism of children with LGBT parents, or allow same-sex marriage to go undisciplined, this reversal will create an implicit "don't ask, don't tell" policy within many church congregations -- particularly those in urban cities that have wrestled with how to meet the needs of millennials while adhering to the prescriptions of church headquarters.

Now, each bishop has the choice of how to respond to same-sex marriage within his congregation -- a sin that once, technically, would necessitate excommunication. While the church states that same-sex marriage is still a "serious transgression," this policy will allow more liberal bishops to determine ecclesiastical discipline (or nondiscipline) on an individual basis. For many congregations, this will likely mean welcoming gay members and their families with open arms.

[Alaris]

Maybe it wasn't the "wrong" road. Let's say this new policy was given in place of the old one. Could giving an inch to the gay community in 2015 may have been the wrong timing? Could the stricter policy in 2015 have produced a different reaction to this new policy given in 2019? Could there be other reasons our mortal minds can't even dream up?

[sushi_chef]

after all in latter-day-saints-dom current president is everything, having the master key, supersedes all the past....

ushering into the historic hinge point where things are moved furthering forward, stands tall and invites all saints, saying, welcome, welcome to the new ecumenistic world order....

[brlenox]

I posted that ironically before I saw that someone posted it unironically. Sorry.

I only post moronically.

[LucianAMD]

Has God never said to go left before right? Might he whose thoughts are higher than ours have a purpose here?

Isn't it just as possible to say the leaders were wrong before or are wrong now?

Sure it's possible. Let's say that you did what you shoulda done when President Nelson took the mantle and prayed and received a witness that he is indeed God's prophet. Let's say you did the same for President Monson and got the same answer. Now, would you just willy nilly jump to a conclusion that one of them must have been wrong or would you follow that same pattern to study it out and seek an answer in faith from he who knows much more than you? Might there have been a purpose here that *gasp* you are unable to see or understand?

Or you could just rely on your own pride er understanding. Those who immediately jump all over the Lord's anointed with bitterness and anger are just showing the fruits of he who rewards you no good thing.

What if after honestly seeking, the answer received was that they hold no such mantle? That was my answer. The fruits of the church and leadership that I've seen in the last ten years have been troubling at best.

[Lizzy60]

Could it be that the lawyers at Kirton-McKonkie are trying to keep the Church from getting sued? There is talk of a class action suit for damages done by the 2015 policy. There is also Equality Utah which will strip away the religious exemption the Church negotiated in return for supporting the Utah anti-discrimination act a number of years ago. There is also the Equality legislation before the US Congress that seeks to do away with all religious exemptions.

[Alaris]

Has God never said to go left before right? Might he whose thoughts are higher than ours have a purpose here?

Isn't it just as possible to say the leaders were wrong before or are wrong now?

Sure it's possible. Let's say that you did what you shoulda done when President Nelson took the mantle and prayed and received a witness that he is indeed God's prophet. Let's say you did the same for President Monson and got the same answer. Now, would you just willy nilly jump to a conclusion that one of them must have been wrong or would you follow that same pattern to study it out and seek an answer in faith from he who knows much more than you? Might there have been a purpose here that *gasp* you are unable to see or understand?

Or you could just rely on your own pride er understanding. Those who immediately jump all over the Lord's anointed with bitterness and anger are just showing the fruits of he who rewards you no good thing.

What if after honestly seeking, the answer received was that they hold no such mantle? That was my answer. The fruits of the church and leadership that I've seen in the last ten years have been troubling at best.

And that same spirit has led these folks to post angry, bitter remarks about the church leadership?

[dezNatDefender]

Maybe it wasn't the "wrong" road. Let's say this new policy was given in place of the old one. Could giving an inch to the gay community in 2015 may have been the wrong timing? Could the stricter policy in 2015 have produced a different reaction to this new policy given in 2019? Could there be other reasons our mortal minds can't even dream up?

I've got no problem with God reversing course. However, when he does reverse course, it is laid out in Scripture why it was reversed.

Abraham and Isaac-reverse course, a lamb was there
Moses 10 commandments, people were wicked.
Zion's camp reversal-people were wicked.

Here . . .no reason given and people who believe either way can claim God wanted it their way.

Mark my words, the amount of persecution that will come from defenders of the Institution will be intense and will dwarf this by magnitudes when the Church officially allows homosexuals in the Church.

The Church needs to split, but it can't because of our theology. Pro and anti homosexual marriage are battling over legitimacy. Each side claiming the other side is wrong, each side claiming they have revelations, personal scripture, etc. to back up their side.

And because both believe in Prophets, both believe in Scripture, (or claim to) it's a war. Whichever side wins gets to completely vanquish the other side as illegitimate. Why do they get to vanquish the other side? Because the members who are either on the fence or don't care will simply tell the losing side "get with the program, follow the Prophet, he won't lead us astray"

https://ksltv.com/411166/church-allowin ... wsource=cl

People should really look at the body language of these two guys. I've studied body language and these guys are suuuuuch snakes. Ignore the words and look at the body language.

When the one guy talks his eyes are half-open like little slits, he talks with his head tilted at an angle. It's like an animal which is eyeing you and bobbing and weaving seeing which way is best to strike at you. When he starts off his eyebrows are up giving the "believe me, believe me you must believe me look".

Then at the other guys says has made me "feel kind of relived" and gives a facial expression like an excited child for what might happen.

He says "we recognize there are blessings, from living within the church and the gospel, and we honor those values and moral and feel like the church teaches those values and morals and that it's a good principle for them to learn as well".

There is a reason why homosexual couples WANT to be in the Church, it is to force the issue. It is to take over the Church.

Mark my words, when the Church accepts homosexual marriage officially, anyone who does not fall in line will be persecuted.

[Sunain]

There is a reason why homosexual couples WANT to be in the Church, it is to force the issue. It is to take over the Church.

Mark my words, when the Church accepts homosexual marriage officially, anyone who does not fall in line will be persecuted.

That's exactly the reason and they are completely open about their goal too. Unfortunately, these small steps are leading us closer to the plan that Lucifer wants for God's children, for them to be miserable like him. Homosexuality is the antithesis of the Plan of Salvation.

'We are one step closer’: Imagine Dragons’ Dan Reynolds, founder of LoveLoud Festival, praises LDS Church’s change in LGBTQ policy

The founder of Utah’s LoveLoud music festival for LGBTQ youths, Imagine Dragons frontman Dan Reynolds, tweeted a cautiously positive response to the news that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is changing its policy toward same-sex couples and their children.

Reynolds tweeted this response Thursday: “progress doesn’t happen overnight. it happens in small steps. today we are one step closer.”

[dezNatDefender]

Isn't it just as possible to say the leaders were wrong before or are wrong now?

Sure it's possible. Let's say that you did what you shoulda done when President Nelson took the mantle and prayed and received a witness that he is indeed God's prophet. Let's say you did the same for President Monson and got the same answer. Now, would you just willy nilly jump to a conclusion that one of them must have been wrong or would you follow that same pattern to study it out and seek an answer in faith from he who knows much more than you? Might there have been a purpose here that *gasp* you are unable to see or understand?

Or you could just rely on your own pride er understanding. Those who immediately jump all over the Lord's anointed with bitterness and anger are just showing the fruits of he who rewards you no good thing.

What if after honestly seeking, the answer received was that they hold no such mantle? That was my answer. The fruits of the church and leadership that I've seen in the last ten years have been troubling at best.

And that same spirit has led these folks to post angry, bitter remarks about the church leadership?

Alaris, you don't get it. You don't understand why people would be angry or upset.

I laid it out in my previous post; unfortunately ever since 1890, our theology does NOT allow for deep divisions to occur. You are either with the Prophet or you are against the Prophet?

No matter what happens, no matter the mistakes, errors, issues, problems, you are either with or against.

People are upset because of what the ramifications mean in 5-10 to 20 years.

Because there is NO mechanism within the Church to actually legitimately split. (okay there is but it's not used b/c of WW).

Who do you hold allegiance to, Christ or Church leadership?

The Church complains about compassion, unity, etc. The honest to goodness best solution is for there to be two Prophets who have legitimate claim to being a Prophet.

You separate.

What the Church is going through, other religions have gone through and are going through. UMC, etc.

At some point the theological divide becomes too great to bridge, it is impossible to come to understanding and compassion. It is happening and will continue to happen in the Church. Except there is no mechanism for both sides to claim victory.

You either win or you are banished, period.

At least other religions have a mechanism whereby splits can occur, the UMC, if congregations want to split from the UMC they are welcome to do so and they keep their buildings. Because it's locally controlled and owned, splits can happen.

[LucianAMD]

Isn't it just as possible to say the leaders were wrong before or are wrong now?

Sure it's possible. Let's say that you did what you shoulda done when President Nelson took the mantle and prayed and received a witness that he is indeed God's prophet. Let's say you did the same for President Monson and got the same answer. Now, would you just willy nilly jump to a conclusion that one of them must have been wrong or would you follow that same pattern to study it out and seek an answer in faith from he who knows much more than you? Might there have been a purpose here that *gasp* you are unable to see or understand?

Or you could just rely on your own pride er understanding. Those who immediately jump all over the Lord's anointed with bitterness and anger are just showing the fruits of he who rewards you no good thing.

What if after honestly seeking, the answer received was that they hold no such mantle? That was my answer. The fruits of the church and leadership that I've seen in the last ten years have been troubling at best.

And that same spirit has led these folks to post angry, bitter remarks about the church leadership?

No one said it did. The connection you are trying to make is a logical fallacy.

[brlenox]

At least other religions have a mechanism whereby splits can occur, the UMC, if congregations want to split from the UMC they are welcome to do so and they keep their buildings. Because it's locally controlled and owned, splits can happen.

Chicken Little...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMHgiwemNG0[/youtube]

[Lizzy60]

If you haven't watched the video from KSL that deznat defender posted above, you need to see what is going on in a county that is 85% LDS. Thus gay married couple attends the LDS church every week, their ward loves them, they are foster parents, and they have just been notified that a birth mother is going to give them her baby to adopt. They live in LEHI.

https://ksltv.com/411166/church-allowin ... wsource=cl

I'm not bitter. I love my Lord and Savior. I love the Book of Mormon. Nothing can shake my faith or foundation in the Doctrine of Christ, and the Gospel of Christ. The prophecies in Jeremiah 23, Ezekiel 34, and throughout Isaiah are being made manifest. Good is being called evil, and evil, good. Things are turning upside-down. People are in darkness, although the truth is as bright as the noonday sun.