Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents

[Matchmaker]

The General Authorities have said we all make mistakes, even them. Could President Monson during his illness have made a mistake when he said the children of LGBT adults could not be baptized, and the Lord is correcting it now? I'm asking a serious question here. Can the Prophet ever make mistakes about revelation, or are they all infallible in that regard?

Just remember in the Church, that only applies to past Church leaders, current leaders NEVER make mistakes.

Who knows maybe the next Church President will throw Pres. Nelson under the bus like he did Pres. Monson . . .who knows???

Wow! I've never heard it described quite that way.

[Thinker]

It does make one pause and wonder why the 180 change in position regarding homosexuality in the church. Some considerations...

Wendy Nelson & Sheri Dew have been long-time friends. After Sheri moved, Wendy, with Pres. Nelson, bought a home close by. Sheri joined them on their recent trip to Rome (she’s not a 12 nor married to one, is she?). Sheri and Wendy own a home together as legal joint tenants: http://mormondisclosures.blogspot.com/2 ... s.html?m=1

[Chip]

Saw these just now:

Satan looks to counterfeit revelation... uh, oh!

Oh crap, that was a bunk revelation, Satan hacked my feed.

Joseph Smith said early on that some revelations are from God, some are from the devil, and some are from man.

[lemuel]

The General Authorities have said we all make mistakes, even them. Could President Monson during his illness have made a mistake when he said the children of LGBT adults could not be baptized, and the Lord is correcting it now? I'm asking a serious question here. Can the Prophet ever make mistakes about revelation, or are they all infallible in that regard?

Does this short video below (by then President of the Twelve Nelson) sound like it was a mistake? The First Presidency and all of the Twelve believed it was a revelation from God. The implications of the entire group of 15 getting, believing, and implementing false revelation is quite staggering, no?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0mLZp1HKhY

Given that only Russell Nelson and no other apostle described it as a revelation--

And then, when the Lord inspired His prophet, President Thomas S. Monson, to declare the mind of the Lord and the will of the Lord, each of us during that sacred moment felt a spiritual confirmation. It was our privilege as Apostles to sustain what had been revealed to President Monson.

--It's possible that Nelson is taking some liberties with the definition of what it meant for TSM (especially given his mental capacity in 2015) to declare the mind of the Lord and the will of the Lord.

It could have went something like this:

Nelson: 14 of us agree that we shouldn't baptize the kids of the gays. Do you agree?

Monson: Did I ever tell you about this widow...

Oaks: Sing "I am the very model of a modern major general if you disagree"

Monson: I love the song of pigeons. Did I ever tell you how I used to raise pigeons?

Nelson: We have agreement among 15 apostles. And the agreement of 15 apostles means the will of God. Vox Apostoli, Vox Dei.

The calling of 15 men to the holy apostleship provides great protection for us as members of the Church. Why? Because decisions of these leaders must be unanimous.13 Can you imagine how the Spirit needs to move upon 15 men to bring about unanimity? These 15 men have varied educational and professional backgrounds, with differing opinions about many things. Trust me! These 15 men—prophets, seers, and revelators—know what the will of the Lord is when unanimity is reached!

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... ?lang=eng

[ajax]

"Follow the Prophet no matter what."

And this is how the church gets away with it. This is a sinister ideology ingrained and made into song that our primary kids sing that strips them of the ability to think and act independently, rationally and reasonable for themselves. They are not self governing. They focus on the opinions of officeholders and tie themselves to that. They've given up their agency.

I care not one wit what the policy is, (I think nobody should be baptized until they can make a reasonable decision as adults), but I find it fascinating observing the flipping and flopping and the rationalizations which occur which all boil down to the FTP principle. And this isn't the first time.

[mtm411]

https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... sues-49422
This was released today.

[RocknRoll]

From the 1987 Homosexual Manifesto - many goals stated have already been accomplished...

I believe it’s been pointed out to you before that this so called “Homosexual Manifesto” you are always quoting, was written as satire and shouldn’t be taken seriously.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_agenda

[ajax]

I just was reading Jeremiah chapter 23 last night. Interesting times.

So the Lord is blaming the scattering of the sheep on the pastors and not the inherent apostasy of the sheep themselves? Sounds eerily like Eze 34.

Say it ain't so.

[EmmaLee]

The General Authorities have said we all make mistakes, even them. Could President Monson during his illness have made a mistake when he said the children of LGBT adults could not be baptized, and the Lord is correcting it now? I'm asking a serious question here. Can the Prophet ever make mistakes about revelation, or are they all infallible in that regard?

Does this short video below (by then President of the Twelve Nelson) sound like it was a mistake? The First Presidency and all of the Twelve believed it was a revelation from God. The implications of the entire group of 15 getting, believing, and implementing false revelation is quite staggering, no?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0mLZp1HKhY

Given that only Russell Nelson and no other apostle described it as a revelation--

And then, when the Lord inspired His prophet, President Thomas S. Monson, to declare the mind of the Lord and the will of the Lord, each of us during that sacred moment felt a spiritual confirmation. It was our privilege as Apostles to sustain what had been revealed to President Monson.

--It's possible that Nelson is taking some liberties with the definition of what it meant for TSM (especially given his mental capacity in 2015) to declare the mind of the Lord and the will of the Lord.
....

The calling of 15 men to the holy apostleship provides great protection for us as members of the Church. Why? Because decisions of these leaders must be unanimous.13 Can you imagine how the Spirit needs to move upon 15 men to bring about unanimity? These 15 men have varied educational and professional backgrounds, with differing opinions about many things. Trust me! These 15 men—prophets, seers, and revelators—know what the will of the Lord is when unanimity is reached!

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... ?lang=eng

Nelson was President of the Twelve at the time he said these things (declared it to be "revelation") in General Conference. What is the point/role of having a "President" of the Twelve, or of being the "President" of the Twelve if he is not speaking for the Twelve in such an official setting? Rather ludicrous to expect the other 11 men to stand up and declare it a revelation from the pulpit when one of the main roles of the Pof12 is to speak FOR the Twelve in official capacities. As your last quote indicates - of course he was speaking for not only the 12, but for the entire 15.

[John Tavner]

Honestly, they should never have made this a policy in the first place, nor should they implement the same policy on those practicing Polygamy. The requirements for baptism to be made effective are clear and are found in 2 Nephi. Those who add or prevent honest seekers of Christ from entering His gate, will likely have condmenation fall upon their heads unless they repent. For Christ calls ALL who are willing to repent and take upon His name to come unto HIm.

That being said, I'm 99% sure this whole process is happening and is inspired to create division. This division will widen and those who follow the Spirit (notice I didn't say those called by the church as prophets or the one holding the keys, but the Spirit) will be guided correctly and be led out. The divisions are on purpose - there are truths and lies spread within, but this whole thing is an illusion. People are arguing over the wrong things. There are things that are wrong and lots of them, but this is just an illusion to distract. It is the great red herring.

Pay attention to the division and pay attention to your heart. Learn the Doctrine of Christ - that will help us to see their fruits as well as to know when messengers come whether they are of God or of some other source. If we know and have the Doctrine of Christ written upon our hearts and continue to grow closer to the Lord things will work out for us and no matter what we will feel at peace. As anger and contention grows within us, so it does likely two-fold outside of the church. These changes and divisions are there to awaken those who weren't awake. After their awakening they will have a choice - be angry and accuse, or repent and choose to follow the Spirit. Those who follow the Spirit in all things will have peace as the division grows around them. They will be those who are not fighting against Father, mother, brother, sister, city, and state. Rather than yield to the enticing's of the one who uses the flesh against us, we must yield unceasingly to the enticing's of the Holy SPirit and have Christ as our forefront. Things will be flipped on their head.

[Thinker]

From the 1987 Homosexual Manifesto - many goals stated have already been accomplished...

I believe it’s been pointed out to you before that this so called “Homosexual Manifesto” you are always quoting, was written as satire and shouldn’t be taken seriously.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_agenda

And I believe it’s been pointed out to you before that many STATED GOALS in this supposed “satirical” Homosexual Manifesto have ALREADY BEEN ACCOMPLISHED. That means it wasn’t as satirical as some would have gullible people believe.

[Hie'ing to Kolob]

The Lord (and his prophet) can make a policy and then a few years later reverse that same policy even without *gasp* giving a reason for the reversal. When your foundation is built on the gospel of the Savior, things like this don't affect your testimony.

Trust. Faith. Both supported and confirmed by the Holy Ghost.

It is only becomes a policy when it is rescinded.

[Alaris]

This was announced yesterday and we have 8 pages of folks knee-jerk attack or defense? How many have sought out an answer in humility here I wonder? How many have received one?

[Sirius]

This was announced yesterday and we have 8 pages of folks knee-jerk attack or defense? How many have sought out an answer in humility here I wonder? How many have received one?

In the process for sure.

[Col. Flagg]

This was announced yesterday and we have 8 pages of folks knee-jerk attack or defense? How many have sought out an answer in humility here I wonder? How many have received one?

Members were ex'd and there were even suicides over the announcement in late 2015 and now the church does a 180 with no apology to those who were so adversely affected and impacted by it? Anyone who thinks this is 'revelation' is kidding themselves... church policy decisions at the behest of lawyers because of litigation concerns is messing with peoples' lives and it is alarming!

[Alaris]

This was announced yesterday and we have 8 pages of folks knee-jerk attack or defense? How many have sought out an answer in humility here I wonder? How many have received one?

Members were ex'd and there were even suicides over the announcement in late 2015 and now the church does a 180 with no apology to those who were so adversely affected and impacted by it? Anyone who thinks this is 'revelation' is kidding themselves... church policy decisions at the behest of lawyers because of litigation concerns is messing with peoples' lives and it is alarming!

So one knee-jerk reaction here that confirms your bias. Thanks for pointing that out.

[lesk]

So, I took flak when I said the policy, now being dumped, was just that, a policy. It was not revelation.

The mistake is being corrected.

I heard that statement often, but when Russell Nelson himself said it was revelation and now he's at the helm reversing it I am left wondering what type of capricious god is leading the first presidency and twelve.

[Fiannan]

I guess people will begin to quote scriptures more and not the Holy Handbook.

The handbook is policy. It is instructions so as to maintain a working institution. So you need some standardization and conformity. However, our ultimate authority is scripture and guidance from those who are entrusted with leadership in the Church.

[Lizzy60]

So, I took flak when I said the policy, now being dumped, was just that, a policy. It was not revelation.

The mistake is being corrected.

I heard that statement often, but when Russell Nelson himself said it was revelation and now he's at the helm reversing it I am left wondering what type of capricious god is leading the first presidency and twelve.

When words are given "new" definitions, claims can be made that wouldn't happen otherwise. The Bretheren have very specifically stated that when all 15 of them reach a consensus on a matter, they have found the mind and will of the Lord. So any decision they reach where they all agree can be labeled as a "revelation" if they so desire, using their new definition.

However, I don't agree with this new definition of revelation, so I have to find out for myself if what they are saying or doing is what God wants for His Church. Then, I am in danger of being labeled an apostate if a believe I've received contrary revelation to their revelation. Because, I'm just a nobody. I'm not an Apostle, much less infallible. It's a no-win situation for the rank and file.

We might as well be Catholics.

[Alaris]

Has God never said to go left before right? Might he whose thoughts are higher than ours have a purpose here?

[lesk]

Has God never said to go left before right? Might he whose thoughts are higher than ours have a purpose here?

Isn't it just as possible to say the leaders were wrong before or are wrong now?

[Alaris]

Has God never said to go left before right? Might he whose thoughts are higher than ours have a purpose here?

Isn't it just as possible to say the leaders were wrong before or are wrong now?

Sure it's possible. Let's say that you did what you shoulda done when President Nelson took the mantle and prayed and received a witness that he is indeed God's prophet. Let's say you did the same for President Monson and got the same answer. Now, would you just willy nilly jump to a conclusion that one of them must have been wrong or would you follow that same pattern to study it out and seek an answer in faith from he who knows much more than you? Might there have been a purpose here that *gasp* you are unable to see or understand?

Or you could just rely on your own pride er understanding. Those who immediately jump all over the Lord's anointed with bitterness and anger are just showing the fruits of he who rewards you no good thing.

[brlenox]

Has God never said to go left before right? Might he whose thoughts are higher than ours have a purpose here?

Never - but here is a story from Elder Holland where the Lord said go right before you go left.

There are times when the only way to get from A to C is by way of B. Having grown up in Southern Utah and enjoying all the wonders and beauties of Southern Utah and Northern Arizona, I wanted to introduce my son to that, and I wanted to show him places that I had seen and enjoyed when I was his age, so his mother packed a little lunch for us and we took his grandfather's pickup truck and headed South onto what we call the Old Arizona Strip. Noting that the Sun was going down we decided we better get back. But we came back to a particular fork in the road, really the only one, that at that point was absolutely unrecognizable. I asked my son to pray about which road to take, and he felt strongly that we should go to the right, and I did as well, and we went to the right and it was a dead end. We went four or five or six hundred yards and it was an absolute dead-end, clearly the wrong road. We turned around, came back out, took the other road and clearly the road to the left was the correct road. Somewhere along the way Matt said, ""Dad, why did we feel, after praying about it, that the right road was the proper one to take, the correct one to take, and it wasn't?"" And I said, ""I think that the Lord, His wish for us there, and his answer to our prayer was to get us on the right road as quickly as possible with some reassurance, with some understanding, that we were on the right road and we didn't have to worry about it, and in this case, the easiest way to do that was to let us go 400 yards or 500 yards on the wrong road, and very quickly know, without a doubt, that it was the wrong road, and therefore with equal certainty with equal conviction that the other one was the right road."" I have absolute certain knowledge, perfect knowledge, that God loves us. He is good, He is our Father, and He expects us to pray, and trust, and be believing, and not give up, and not panic, and not retreat, and not jump ship, when something doesn't seem to be going just right. We stay in, we keep working, we keep believing, keep trusting, following that same path and we will live to fall in His arms and feel His embrace and hear Him say, ""I told you that it'd be okay, I told you it would be all right."(Jeffrey R. Holland.)

[lesk]

I call it a “policy” because it’s going to be in the handbook, right? It could be a revelation, or not—in any case it’s still a policy. I could be wrong. Corrections welcome. “Revelation” or not, it doesn’t matter to me.

If I was caught explaining the reason for the change, that’s just my own bad behavior... I was just trying to guess what its effects would be. It is not advised to question the motives and methods of the Lord’s anointed.

Regardless, I have no issues with the change, I trust the Lord’s authorized servants.

Not trying to start an argument here, trying to understand how you reconcile "trusting the Lord's authorized servants" with "Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?"

Isn't it incumbent on any man/men claiming to speak for God to reflect God's character in his/their teachings?

Then it is incumbent on us to ascertain when God's character is being taught and reflect that in our own lives?

Doesn't trusting a servant because he is authorized just remove the trial of faith in God?

Perhaps you see it differently. I'd be interested in your view.

[Alaris]

Has God never said to go left before right? Might he whose thoughts are higher than ours have a purpose here?

Never - but here is a story from Elder Holland where the Lord said go right before you go left.

There are times when the only way to get from A to C is by way of B. Having grown up in Southern Utah and enjoying all the wonders and beauties of Southern Utah and Northern Arizona, I wanted to introduce my son to that, and I wanted to show him places that I had seen and enjoyed when I was his age, so his mother packed a little lunch for us and we took his grandfather's pickup truck and headed South onto what we call the Old Arizona Strip. Noting that the Sun was going down we decided we better get back. But we came back to a particular fork in the road, really the only one, that at that point was absolutely unrecognizable. I asked my son to pray about which road to take, and he felt strongly that we should go to the right, and I did as well, and we went to the right and it was a dead end. We went four or five or six hundred yards and it was an absolute dead-end, clearly the wrong road. We turned around, came back out, took the other road and clearly the road to the left was the correct road. Somewhere along the way Matt said, ""Dad, why did we feel, after praying about it, that the right road was the proper one to take, the correct one to take, and it wasn't?"" And I said, ""I think that the Lord, His wish for us there, and his answer to our prayer was to get us on the right road as quickly as possible with some reassurance, with some understanding, that we were on the right road and we didn't have to worry about it, and in this case, the easiest way to do that was to let us go 400 yards or 500 yards on the wrong road, and very quickly know, without a doubt, that it was the wrong road, and therefore with equal certainty with equal conviction that the other one was the right road."" I have absolute certain knowledge, perfect knowledge, that God loves us. He is good, He is our Father, and He expects us to pray, and trust, and be believing, and not give up, and not panic, and not retreat, and not jump ship, when something doesn't seem to be going just right. We stay in, we keep working, we keep believing, keep trusting, following that same path and we will live to fall in His arms and feel His embrace and hear Him say, ""I told you that it'd be okay, I told you it would be all right."(Jeffrey R. Holland.)

Heh - that's exactly the story I was thinking of! I know the Lord has done this with me many times. In fact, I know he's led me to erroneous conclusions because that conclusion elicited a response or an action that was indeed his will. Then, with the benefit of hindsight there are all sorts of lessons learned about me and my inability to receive more direct guidance in faith.