LDS Freedom Forum

Juliet wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:51 pm God might shut up the tongues of the prophets and those who have sacred experiences because of the unbelief of the people.

Mormon chapter 1:

15 And I, being fifteen years of age and being somewhat of a sober mind, therefore I was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus.

16 And I did endeavor to preach unto this people, but my mouth was shut, and I was forbidden that I should preach unto them; for behold they had wilfully rebelled against their God; and the beloved disciples were taken away out of the land, because of their iniquity.

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:11 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 1:13 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 12:39 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 9:05 am Jesus actually gave this little-known, completely neglected commandment found in the Book of Mormon:



Christ commands those who have "felt" Him and "seen" Him, to go testify to the world that this is a COMMANDMENT!! Not a simple suggestion, but something we should actively be pursuing. We are to "come unto Him", to the intimate point where we thrust our hands into his side to feel the wound in his side, and to feel the prints of the nails in His hands and in His feet, "that ye may know that I am the God of Israel," as He said.

Whoso does not keep this commandment (and certainly those who OPPOSE it), "suffers themselves to be led into temptation" of the evil one.

I didn't say it, Jesus Christ did.

This year, I taught this verse/ the commandment to literally come unto Christ to feel and see Him, to a full chapel of LDS in the second period. Nobody had even heard or could recognize this commandment. I know because I asked. "By a show of hands, who's heard of this commandment?" Not a hand was raised!

This commandment of Jesus Christ is TOTALLY ignored in the Church. It is omitted from the leadership's preaching and quite literally blacked out in the Church's publications (save the BoM). Yes, it still exists in the BoM.

We should ask ourselves WHY. Why would the leaders ignore this commandment? Is it not important?

On a scale of 1-10, where would you rank the importance of this commandment, with a 1 being not so important and 10 being REAL important?

I'd say it's a "10". And yet, virtually nobody knows about it. Could it be that the manual writers and leadership aren't aware of it? That they've innocently skipped over it? And if they have read it, why no stage time given to it? It must be unimportant, right?

But the verse is written to eliminate that as a possible conclusion.

The chilling point, the thing that should give us pause, that should cause us to "fear and tremble", if you will, is that the ignoring of this commandment, and certainly any opposition to this commandment, results in the person not trying to keep that commandment being subject to the power of the devil. That of course would include deception. And if we are deceived, but believe we are not deceived, then what an awful state we are in!

We might be benefited by remembering that vanity and unbelief got the Church condemned way back in 1832 (DC 84) because they didn't take seriously the BoM, specifically by failing to DO what the book taught.

Please ponder this commandment of Jesus Christ and His warning. If what He is saying is true, then there is a very serious consequence for not at least trying to keep the commandment. How do we refer to this commandment clearly expressed in 3 Nephi 18:25? It's nothing less than the Second Comforter!

What a shame it is to have this doctrine be controversial in the Church today, and borderline heretical! How dare leaders or ANY faithful Mormon oppose, ridicule, or diminish the doctrine of the Second Comforter! Christ said this is a commandment, and to discourage those who would mock this commandment, He declared such a person would be under the power of the devil!

In the lesson I taught recently, I read the last few verses of 3 Nephi 15 and first few verses of chapter 16 which clearly define Christ's numbered sheep as people who hear His voice and see Him. There's no lack of clarity. 2500 people had just heard Him, seen Him, and FELT Him, as commanded. There can be no misunderstanding what the verses verdict is on the definition of His "sheep." And yet, four people in a row raised their hands to state, "WE are His sheep. All of us are His sheep." Despite reading the exact opposite of what they said seconds earlier, these good Mormons couldn't separate themselves from their unbelief.

I challenged them all, as tactfully and lovingly as I could, to go back and read how the verses defined His "sheep". I asked them to put their personal interpretation on the shelf, and let the Scriptures speak for themselves.

This was awkward.

So we went back and read the verses, and I declared there was and is no doubt what the verses actually say. Christ says His sheep are those who hear His voice and see Him. I challenged them to set their hearts on that destination. Yes, it's a process, it's a journey. There is a path, and that path is the Gospel, but there is a destination and reaching that destination (of hearing Him and seeing Him) qualifies us to become His sheep. So said Jesus. Not me.

And yet, will there be some people here who choose to rail against Christ's teachings? Probably. And why would believers oppose the truth? Because they can. They are free to do so. That's the great thing about our time here. We can choose the vanity and unbelief of "I hear His voice and "see" Him. I am His sheep," which causes us to not even have the goal He's set for us, with the consequence of being led into temptation.

Gosh, I tell ya, the BoM sure has some interesting doctrine in its pages!

Read in context, the scripture cited is the commandment to come unto Christ ourselves and for us to extend that command to all others that we may come to know Christ. It wasnt literally meant for each one of us to come and thrust our hand in his side and see him physically while in the flesh of our mortal lives.

The context is exactly what you say it isn't.

He was speaking to the 2500 who touched him. THAT is all the context you need. Not to mention, in this chapter He institutes the sacrament, where bread is broken and EVERYBODY "touches" / feels the bread, the symbol of His body.

Yes, please read in context. Your interpretation of not applying to us is completely opposite to what is written.

It's too bad that people here want to argue against being brought into Christ's presence.

People would rather argue against that true END GOAL or PURPOSE of our very lives than admit the Church doesn't teach this.

I think it is true the end goal, in the eternity, is to come physically into his presence. But that is not the commandment given here, it is to go out and bring people to the kingdom, to Christ spiritually, in the which, in eternity, we will behold him physically. It would be wrong to assume it means we have to be brought physically into his presence in mortality because we are commanded to.

55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 12:39 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 9:05 am Jesus actually gave this little-known, completely neglected commandment found in the Book of Mormon:

3 Nephi 18:25

25 And ye see that I have commanded that none of you should go away, but rather have commanded that ye should come unto me, that ye might feel and see; even so shall ye do unto the world; and whosoever breaketh this commandment suffereth himself to be led into temptation.

Christ commands those who have "felt" Him and "seen" Him, to go testify to the world that this is a COMMANDMENT!! Not a simple suggestion, but something we should actively be pursuing. We are to "come unto Him", to the intimate point where we thrust our hands into his side to feel the wound in his side, and to feel the prints of the nails in His hands and in His feet, "that ye may know that I am the God of Israel," as He said.

Whoso does not keep this commandment (and certainly those who OPPOSE it), "suffers themselves to be led into temptation" of the evil one.

I didn't say it, Jesus Christ did.

This year, I taught this verse/ the commandment to literally come unto Christ to feel and see Him, to a full chapel of LDS in the second period. Nobody had even heard or could recognize this commandment. I know because I asked. "By a show of hands, who's heard of this commandment?" Not a hand was raised!

This commandment of Jesus Christ is TOTALLY ignored in the Church. It is omitted from the leadership's preaching and quite literally blacked out in the Church's publications (save the BoM). Yes, it still exists in the BoM.

We should ask ourselves WHY. Why would the leaders ignore this commandment? Is it not important?

On a scale of 1-10, where would you rank the importance of this commandment, with a 1 being not so important and 10 being REAL important?

I'd say it's a "10". And yet, virtually nobody knows about it. Could it be that the manual writers and leadership aren't aware of it? That they've innocently skipped over it? And if they have read it, why no stage time given to it? It must be unimportant, right?

But the verse is written to eliminate that as a possible conclusion.

The chilling point, the thing that should give us pause, that should cause us to "fear and tremble", if you will, is that the ignoring of this commandment, and certainly any opposition to this commandment, results in the person not trying to keep that commandment being subject to the power of the devil. That of course would include deception. And if we are deceived, but believe we are not deceived, then what an awful state we are in!

We might be benefited by remembering that vanity and unbelief got the Church condemned way back in 1832 (DC 84) because they didn't take seriously the BoM, specifically by failing to DO what the book taught.

Please ponder this commandment of Jesus Christ and His warning. If what He is saying is true, then there is a very serious consequence for not at least trying to keep the commandment. How do we refer to this commandment clearly expressed in 3 Nephi 18:25? It's nothing less than the Second Comforter!

What a shame it is to have this doctrine be controversial in the Church today, and borderline heretical! How dare leaders or ANY faithful Mormon oppose, ridicule, or diminish the doctrine of the Second Comforter! Christ said this is a commandment, and to discourage those who would mock this commandment, He declared such a person would be under the power of the devil!

In the lesson I taught recently, I read the last few verses of 3 Nephi 15 and first few verses of chapter 16 which clearly define Christ's numbered sheep as people who hear His voice and see Him. There's no lack of clarity. 2500 people had just heard Him, seen Him, and FELT Him, as commanded. There can be no misunderstanding what the verses verdict is on the definition of His "sheep." And yet, four people in a row raised their hands to state, "WE are His sheep. All of us are His sheep." Despite reading the exact opposite of what they said seconds earlier, these good Mormons couldn't separate themselves from their unbelief.

I challenged them all, as tactfully and lovingly as I could, to go back and read how the verses defined His "sheep". I asked them to put their personal interpretation on the shelf, and let the Scriptures speak for themselves.

This was awkward.

So we went back and read the verses, and I declared there was and is no doubt what the verses actually say. Christ says His sheep are those who hear His voice and see Him. I challenged them to set their hearts on that destination. Yes, it's a process, it's a journey. There is a path, and that path is the Gospel, but there is a destination and reaching that destination (of hearing Him and seeing Him) qualifies us to become His sheep. So said Jesus. Not me.

And yet, will there be some people here who choose to rail against Christ's teachings? Probably. And why would believers oppose the truth? Because they can. They are free to do so. That's the great thing about our time here. We can choose the vanity and unbelief of "I hear His voice and "see" Him. I am His sheep," which causes us to not even have the goal He's set for us, with the consequence of being led into temptation.

Gosh, I tell ya, the BoM sure has some interesting doctrine in its pages!

Read in context, the scripture cited is the commandment to come unto Christ ourselves and for us to extend that command to all others that we may come to know Christ. It wasnt literally meant for each one of us to come and thrust our hand in his side and see him physically while in the flesh of our mortal lives.

Alaris wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:53 pm When someone is clearly seeking some negative attention, the best thing to do is ignore imho

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 9:05 am Jesus actually gave this little-known, completely neglected commandment found in the Book of Mormon:

Gosh, I tell ya, the BoM sure has some interesting doctrine in its pages!

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 9:05 am Jesus actually gave this little-known, completely neglected commandment found in the Book of Mormon:

3 Nephi 18:25

25 And ye see that I have commanded that none of you should go away, but rather have commanded that ye should come unto me, that ye might feel and see; even so shall ye do unto the world; and whosoever breaketh this commandment suffereth himself to be led into temptation.

Christ commands those who have "felt" Him and "seen" Him, to go testify to the world that this is a COMMANDMENT!! Not a simple suggestion, but something we should actively be pursuing. We are to "come unto Him", to the intimate point where we thrust our hands into his side to feel the wound in his side, and to feel the prints of the nails in His hands and in His feet, "that ye may know that I am the God of Israel," as He said.

Whoso does not keep this commandment (and certainly those who OPPOSE it), "suffers themselves to be led into temptation" of the evil one.

I didn't say it, Jesus Christ did.

This year, I taught this verse/ the commandment to literally come unto Christ to feel and see Him, to a full chapel of LDS in the second period. Nobody had even heard or could recognize this commandment. I know because I asked. "By a show of hands, who's heard of this commandment?" Not a hand was raised!

This commandment of Jesus Christ is TOTALLY ignored in the Church. It is omitted from the leadership's preaching and quite literally blacked out in the Church's publications (save the BoM). Yes, it still exists in the BoM.

We should ask ourselves WHY. Why would the leaders ignore this commandment? Is it not important?

On a scale of 1-10, where would you rank the importance of this commandment, with a 1 being not so important and 10 being REAL important?

I'd say it's a "10". And yet, virtually nobody knows about it. Could it be that the manual writers and leadership aren't aware of it? That they've innocently skipped over it? And if they have read it, why no stage time given to it? It must be unimportant, right?

But the verse is written to eliminate that as a possible conclusion.

The chilling point, the thing that should give us pause, that should cause us to "fear and tremble", if you will, is that the ignoring of this commandment, and certainly any opposition to this commandment, results in the person not trying to keep that commandment being subject to the power of the devil. That of course would include deception. And if we are deceived, but believe we are not deceived, then what an awful state we are in!

We might be benefited by remembering that vanity and unbelief got the Church condemned way back in 1832 (DC 84) because they didn't take seriously the BoM, specifically by failing to DO what the book taught.

Please ponder this commandment of Jesus Christ and His warning. If what He is saying is true, then there is a very serious consequence for not at least trying to keep the commandment. How do we refer to this commandment clearly expressed in 3 Nephi 18:25? It's nothing less than the Second Comforter!

What a shame it is to have this doctrine be controversial in the Church today, and borderline heretical! How dare leaders or ANY faithful Mormon oppose, ridicule, or diminish the doctrine of the Second Comforter! Christ said this is a commandment, and to discourage those who would mock this commandment, He declared such a person would be under the power of the devil!

In the lesson I taught recently, I read the last few verses of 3 Nephi 15 and first few verses of chapter 16 which clearly define Christ's numbered sheep as people who hear His voice and see Him. There's no lack of clarity. 2500 people had just heard Him, seen Him, and FELT Him, as commanded. There can be no misunderstanding what the verses verdict is on the definition of His "sheep." And yet, four people in a row raised their hands to state, "WE are His sheep. All of us are His sheep." Despite reading the exact opposite of what they said seconds earlier, these good Mormons couldn't separate themselves from their unbelief.

I challenged them all, as tactfully and lovingly as I could, to go back and read how the verses defined His "sheep". I asked them to put their personal interpretation on the shelf, and let the Scriptures speak for themselves.

This was awkward.

So we went back and read the verses, and I declared there was and is no doubt what the verses actually say. Christ says His sheep are those who hear His voice and see Him. I challenged them to set their hearts on that destination. Yes, it's a process, it's a journey. There is a path, and that path is the Gospel, but there is a destination and reaching that destination (of hearing Him and seeing Him) qualifies us to become His sheep. So said Jesus. Not me.

And yet, will there be some people here who choose to rail against Christ's teachings? Probably. And why would believers oppose the truth? Because they can. They are free to do so. That's the great thing about our time here. We can choose the vanity and unbelief of "I hear His voice and "see" Him. I am His sheep," which causes us to not even have the goal He's set for us, with the consequence of being led into temptation.

Gosh, I tell ya, the BoM sure has some interesting doctrine in its pages!

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 4:12 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 9:05 am Jesus actually gave this little-known, completely neglected commandment found in the Book of Mormon:

Gosh, I tell ya, the BoM sure has some interesting doctrine in its pages!

I think you are a dangerous seller of paper goods because you will promulgate your errant interpretations and expectations in settings where individuals may not be able to discern your full doctrine. Intent is everything.

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 12:39 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 9:05 am Jesus actually gave this little-known, completely neglected commandment found in the Book of Mormon:

3 Nephi 18:25

25 And ye see that I have commanded that none of you should go away, but rather have commanded that ye should come unto me, that ye might feel and see; even so shall ye do unto the world; and whosoever breaketh this commandment suffereth himself to be led into temptation.

Christ commands those who have "felt" Him and "seen" Him, to go testify to the world that this is a COMMANDMENT!! Not a simple suggestion, but something we should actively be pursuing. We are to "come unto Him", to the intimate point where we thrust our hands into his side to feel the wound in his side, and to feel the prints of the nails in His hands and in His feet, "that ye may know that I am the God of Israel," as He said.

Whoso does not keep this commandment (and certainly those who OPPOSE it), "suffers themselves to be led into temptation" of the evil one.

I didn't say it, Jesus Christ did.

This year, I taught this verse/ the commandment to literally come unto Christ to feel and see Him, to a full chapel of LDS in the second period. Nobody had even heard or could recognize this commandment. I know because I asked. "By a show of hands, who's heard of this commandment?" Not a hand was raised!

This commandment of Jesus Christ is TOTALLY ignored in the Church. It is omitted from the leadership's preaching and quite literally blacked out in the Church's publications (save the BoM). Yes, it still exists in the BoM.

We should ask ourselves WHY. Why would the leaders ignore this commandment? Is it not important?

On a scale of 1-10, where would you rank the importance of this commandment, with a 1 being not so important and 10 being REAL important?

I'd say it's a "10". And yet, virtually nobody knows about it. Could it be that the manual writers and leadership aren't aware of it? That they've innocently skipped over it? And if they have read it, why no stage time given to it? It must be unimportant, right?

But the verse is written to eliminate that as a possible conclusion.

The chilling point, the thing that should give us pause, that should cause us to "fear and tremble", if you will, is that the ignoring of this commandment, and certainly any opposition to this commandment, results in the person not trying to keep that commandment being subject to the power of the devil. That of course would include deception. And if we are deceived, but believe we are not deceived, then what an awful state we are in!

We might be benefited by remembering that vanity and unbelief got the Church condemned way back in 1832 (DC 84) because they didn't take seriously the BoM, specifically by failing to DO what the book taught.

Please ponder this commandment of Jesus Christ and His warning. If what He is saying is true, then there is a very serious consequence for not at least trying to keep the commandment. How do we refer to this commandment clearly expressed in 3 Nephi 18:25? It's nothing less than the Second Comforter!

What a shame it is to have this doctrine be controversial in the Church today, and borderline heretical! How dare leaders or ANY faithful Mormon oppose, ridicule, or diminish the doctrine of the Second Comforter! Christ said this is a commandment, and to discourage those who would mock this commandment, He declared such a person would be under the power of the devil!

In the lesson I taught recently, I read the last few verses of 3 Nephi 15 and first few verses of chapter 16 which clearly define Christ's numbered sheep as people who hear His voice and see Him. There's no lack of clarity. 2500 people had just heard Him, seen Him, and FELT Him, as commanded. There can be no misunderstanding what the verses verdict is on the definition of His "sheep." And yet, four people in a row raised their hands to state, "WE are His sheep. All of us are His sheep." Despite reading the exact opposite of what they said seconds earlier, these good Mormons couldn't separate themselves from their unbelief.

I challenged them all, as tactfully and lovingly as I could, to go back and read how the verses defined His "sheep". I asked them to put their personal interpretation on the shelf, and let the Scriptures speak for themselves.

This was awkward.

So we went back and read the verses, and I declared there was and is no doubt what the verses actually say. Christ says His sheep are those who hear His voice and see Him. I challenged them to set their hearts on that destination. Yes, it's a process, it's a journey. There is a path, and that path is the Gospel, but there is a destination and reaching that destination (of hearing Him and seeing Him) qualifies us to become His sheep. So said Jesus. Not me.

And yet, will there be some people here who choose to rail against Christ's teachings? Probably. And why would believers oppose the truth? Because they can. They are free to do so. That's the great thing about our time here. We can choose the vanity and unbelief of "I hear His voice and "see" Him. I am His sheep," which causes us to not even have the goal He's set for us, with the consequence of being led into temptation.

Gosh, I tell ya, the BoM sure has some interesting doctrine in its pages!

Read in context, the scripture cited is the commandment to come unto Christ ourselves and for us to extend that command to all others that we may come to know Christ. It wasnt literally meant for each one of us to come and thrust our hand in his side and see him physically while in the flesh of our mortal lives.

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 6:34 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 4:12 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 9:05 am Jesus actually gave this little-known, completely neglected commandment found in the Book of Mormon:

Gosh, I tell ya, the BoM sure has some interesting doctrine in its pages!

I think you are a dangerous seller of paper goods because you will promulgate your errant interpretations and expectations in settings where individuals may not be able to discern your full doctrine. Intent is everything.

I know my intent is good. What do you believe my intent is?

Moroni 7:25

25 Wherefore, by the ministering of angels, and by every word which proceeded forth out of the mouth of God, men began to exercise faith in Christ; and thus by faith, they did lay hold upon every good thing; and thus it was until the coming of Christ.

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 4:01 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:11 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 1:13 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 12:39 pm

Read in context, the scripture cited is the commandment to come unto Christ ourselves and for us to extend that command to all others that we may come to know Christ. It wasnt literally meant for each one of us to come and thrust our hand in his side and see him physically while in the flesh of our mortal lives.

The context is exactly what you say it isn't.

He was speaking to the 2500 who touched him. THAT is all the context you need. Not to mention, in this chapter He institutes the sacrament, where bread is broken and EVERYBODY "touches" / feels the bread, the symbol of His body.

Yes, please read in context. Your interpretation of not applying to us is completely opposite to what is written.

It's too bad that people here want to argue against being brought into Christ's presence.

People would rather argue against that true END GOAL or PURPOSE of our very lives than admit the Church doesn't teach this.

I think it is true the end goal, in the eternity, is to come physically into his presence. But that is not the commandment given here, it is to go out and bring people to the kingdom, to Christ spiritually, in the which, in eternity, we will behold him physically. It would be wrong to assume it means we have to be brought physically into his presence in mortality because we are commanded to.

You say it's morally wrong to interpret 3 Nephi 18:25 as referring to us coming into Christ's physical presence? What does "see" and "feel" mean then? Was not an approximate 10-hour audio visual aid just given on the very day Christ gave this commandment in verse 25? TEN HOURS! One by one, two thousand five hundred people walked up to Jesus and touched first His side, then His hands, and then His feet.

What was the point of this 10-hour investment of Jesus' time? Please think about it.

If it wasn't a real, literal commandment to see and feel Him, then why did he COMMAND every single person to come unto Him? You say it's wrong to assume it means this when the words plainly state so? The words are that I "have commanded that ye should come unto me, that ye might feel and see...".

But this doesn't mean "physically into his presence", you assert? And then He commands those who partook of this sacred "touching" ceremony / ordinance to go be a light to the world by saying, "even so shall ye do unto the world." In other words, take this commandment to the world.

If one doesn't do this, then Satan comes to sift you as wheat.

You see, there's but one God. Eternal Life is knowing Him. And being intimate with Him. Touching the marks is surely intimate, and the symbols so powerful that one cannot weep when contemplating such an event.

Isaiah may have given us a big clue as to what will happen when we are brought to that glorious perfect day:

55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Just perhaps, at that day, which you say it's wrong to assume verse 25 means what it says it means, we will hear God make a covenant with us, which shall be written on our hearts forever.

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 7:38 am

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 4:01 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:11 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 1:13 pm

The context is exactly what you say it isn't.

He was speaking to the 2500 who touched him. THAT is all the context you need. Not to mention, in this chapter He institutes the sacrament, where bread is broken and EVERYBODY "touches" / feels the bread, the symbol of His body.

Yes, please read in context. Your interpretation of not applying to us is completely opposite to what is written.

It's too bad that people here want to argue against being brought into Christ's presence.

People would rather argue against that true END GOAL or PURPOSE of our very lives than admit the Church doesn't teach this.

I think it is true the end goal, in the eternity, is to come physically into his presence. But that is not the commandment given here, it is to go out and bring people to the kingdom, to Christ spiritually, in the which, in eternity, we will behold him physically. It would be wrong to assume it means we have to be brought physically into his presence in mortality because we are commanded to.

You say it's morally wrong to interpret 3 Nephi 18:25 as referring to us coming into Christ's physical presence? What does "see" and "feel" mean then? Was not an approximate 10-hour audio visual aid just given on the very day Christ gave this commandment in verse 25? TEN HOURS! One by one, two thousand five hundred people walked up to Jesus and touched first His side, then His hands, and then His feet.

What was the point of this 10-hour investment of Jesus' time? Please think about it.

If it wasn't a real, literal commandment to see and feel Him, then why did he COMMAND every single person to come unto Him? You say it's wrong to assume it means this when the words plainly state so? The words are that I "have commanded that ye should come unto me, that ye might feel and see...".

But this doesn't mean "physically into his presence", you assert? And then He commands those who partook of this sacred "touching" ceremony / ordinance to go be a light to the world by saying, "even so shall ye do unto the world." In other words, take this commandment to the world.

If one doesn't do this, then Satan comes to sift you as wheat.

You see, there's but one God. Eternal Life is knowing Him. And being intimate with Him. Touching the marks is surely intimate, and the symbols so powerful that one cannot weep when contemplating such an event.

Isaiah may have given us a big clue as to what will happen when we are brought to that glorious perfect day:

55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Just perhaps, at that day, which you say it's wrong to assume verse 25 means what it says it means, we will hear God make a covenant with us, which shall be written on our hearts forever.

I honestly believe you are just reading it out of context. Read verses 22-24, this is the proper context. Specifically verse 22 Christ is speaking of the world coming unto them (the saints) in similitude of how they came unto Christ. Thus, when Christ leaves, the command is to bring the world unto the gathered body of saints. That's how it is to be understood.

even so shall ye do unto the world.

topcat wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 10:03 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 7:38 am

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 4:01 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:11 pm

I think it is true the end goal, in the eternity, is to come physically into his presence. But that is not the commandment given here, it is to go out and bring people to the kingdom, to Christ spiritually, in the which, in eternity, we will behold him physically. It would be wrong to assume it means we have to be brought physically into his presence in mortality because we are commanded to.

You say it's morally wrong to interpret 3 Nephi 18:25 as referring to us coming into Christ's physical presence? What does "see" and "feel" mean then? Was not an approximate 10-hour audio visual aid just given on the very day Christ gave this commandment in verse 25? TEN HOURS! One by one, two thousand five hundred people walked up to Jesus and touched first His side, then His hands, and then His feet.

What was the point of this 10-hour investment of Jesus' time? Please think about it.

If it wasn't a real, literal commandment to see and feel Him, then why did he COMMAND every single person to come unto Him? You say it's wrong to assume it means this when the words plainly state so? The words are that I "have commanded that ye should come unto me, that ye might feel and see...".

But this doesn't mean "physically into his presence", you assert? And then He commands those who partook of this sacred "touching" ceremony / ordinance to go be a light to the world by saying, "even so shall ye do unto the world." In other words, take this commandment to the world.

If one doesn't do this, then Satan comes to sift you as wheat.

You see, there's but one God. Eternal Life is knowing Him. And being intimate with Him. Touching the marks is surely intimate, and the symbols so powerful that one cannot weep when contemplating such an event.

Isaiah may have given us a big clue as to what will happen when we are brought to that glorious perfect day:

55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Just perhaps, at that day, which you say it's wrong to assume verse 25 means what it says it means, we will hear God make a covenant with us, which shall be written on our hearts forever.

I honestly believe you are just reading it out of context. Read verses 22-24, this is the proper context. Specifically verse 22 Christ is speaking of the world coming unto them (the saints) in similitude of how they came unto Christ. Thus, when Christ leaves, the command is to bring the world unto the gathered body of saints. That's how it is to be understood.

I have tried to see your interpretation. My sentence by sentence analysis/ commentary:

22: ye shall meet together oft.

Plainly stated. 'Meet frequently', he says to the people.

22: ye shall not forbid any man from coming unto you....

"You" refers to the people. "Coming unto you" refers to attending a meeting / gathering. None shall be forbidden to join. No closed meetings.

The word "you" is used several times in verse 22, and it's referring to the people.

25: I have commanded that none of you should go away...

"You" is referring to the people present, the 2,500 people mentioned at the end of chapter 17. This is the group that has been there with Christ since Chapter 11 when they felt Christ's wounds.

25: ...but rather have commanded that ye should come unto me...

Christ is plainly saying "come unto me". This is a familiar phrase. It's used 18 times in the OT, 8 times in the NT, 35 times in the BoM, and 4 times in the D&C. That's 65 times total. We have, in the Church, and even Christians outside the Church, taken this phrase, "come unto me" to be strictly a metaphorical expression. Become LIKE Christ, or progress towards Christ. That is absolutely a correct interpretation. But also ABSOLUTELY correct and yet totally skipped over is the LITERAL meaning of "come physically into my physical presence." Christians are duped by the false doctrine of the Trinity. But Mormons have less of an excuse for their failure to understand the literal meaning. We are taught the Christ has a physical body and can be touched. That is a basic, core belief of Mormonism.

So verse 25's phrase "come unto me" at the very least has the metaphorical AND literal meaning, to Mormons. The next part of the verse removes doubt as to the meaning Christ intends in this verse by commanding, "come unto me."

25: come unto me, that ye might feel and see;

If you were/are in the metaphorical camp, well, Christ serves notice that you should jump with both feet into the other camp. Christ is speaking literally here when he says, "come unto me". He specifies the very reason He wants us (you, me, and everybody....even "the world") to come unto Him. That specific reason is that we might "feel" and "see" Him. What might that involve? The big clue is in Chapter 11, isn't it? He command us to feel the wound in His side, and the wounds in His hands and feet. This is a commandment. And it makes sense WHY He would give such a commandment. I don't pretend to understand all the WHY's, but I know this hands-on ceremony must needs be centered on the greatest event in human history -- the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

25: even so shall ye do unto the world.

"Ye" is referring to the people there who touched Jesus. You appear to sincerely be interpreting this to mean, as you said above, to "bring the world unto the gathered body of saints."

I'm really not sure what to say with that interpretation. You must agree your interpretation is a "stretch" because 1) the verse does NOT literally say what you're alleging it says, 2) you're bringing in a separate commandment from a verse 3 verses earlier and connecting the completely second commandment to the first (but they are in fact separated), and 3) you are ignoring the phrase which removes all doubt as to the meaning, "that ye might feel and see" Christ as He just that very day had 2500 people come and do.

You appear to be sincere. If you are, then I ask you, if your interpretation has validity, which means you are canceling out the actual words expressed by Christ (to "feel and see" Him), what would be the value of canceling out the meaning Christ clearly expressed?

If we were to ask, "Why would Christ want everyone to come unto Him, to feel and see Him?" even the dullest tools in the shed could get the answer right. "Well, it's so we can know the Savior and that He really did suffer and die for us." Obviously, seeing and feeling the Savior's wounds would be a major event in the life of any man, woman, or child. It would be unforgettable. It would be the object lesson of all object lessons! In the case of these Nephites, it impacted that entire civilization for well over 100 years, and into the 3rd century. 4 Nephi details the impact this ceremony had on the people.

Now compare the impact of Christ's commandment expressed in verse 25 with your vastly watered-down interpretation that it means, "Come unto where the saints are gathered AND where Jesus isn't present."

I mean, come on, brother. Seriously? You're gonna stick with your interpretation, "That's how it is to be understood"?

If so, let's agree to disagree. Peace be unto you.

I just point out to the objective reader here that there are people in the Church who will go to great lengths to defend the Church leaders' omissions of key Christian/ Mormon doctrine. This commandment, found in 3 Nephi 18:25 is unquestionably overlooked, ignored, and belittled by the Church. That is a fact that can be arrived at because NOBODY preaches this sermon that I'm pointing out the BoM teaches. We in the Church, collectively, take the BoM lightly, due to our vanity and unbelief, to our own condemnation (DC 84).

The die-hard Church defenders here will not even give this sermon revealed here in this thread a THUMBS UP. To them, it's like I am the enemy and must be attacked and ridiculed no matter what, even if the doctrine I'm teaching is true and plain to the understanding of man.

Or will DrTanner and BrLenox and their camp give a shout out to this doctrine taught right here in chapter 18? Cannot we come to a unity of faith on this doctrine?

inho wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 11:38 am For me this is a question of language, not doctrine. If you like to talk about receiving the Second Comforter, there are many better scriptures to cite.

I'm a bit disappointed to your reply to Cheetos. You said that you would give a sentence by sentence analysis/commentary. However, your commentary on the key phrase was just an attack against Cheetos.

To understand you better, I would like to hear your word by word analysis of the phrase

even so shall ye do unto the world.

For me, it is clear that this needs to be read in the context of verses 22 and 23. Jesus is saying here: "I invited all of you to come unto me. I did not commanded anyone to go away. Now you should invite the world to come unto you. And you should follow my example and forbid nobody to come to you."

If your interpretation has validity, which means you are canceling out the actual words expressed by Christ (to "feel and see" Him), what would be the value of canceling out the meaning Christ clearly expressed?

If we were to ask, "Why would Christ want everyone to come unto Him, to feel and see Him?" even the dullest tools in the shed could get the answer right. "Well, it's so we can know the Savior and that He really did suffer and die for us." Obviously, seeing and feeling the Savior's wounds would be a major event in the life of any man, woman, or child. It would be unforgettable. It would be the object lesson of all object lessons! In the case of these Nephites, it impacted that entire civilization for well over 100 years, and into the 3rd century. 4 Nephi details the impact this ceremony had on the people.

Now compare the impact of Christ's commandment expressed in verse 25 with your vastly watered-down interpretation that it means, "Come unto where the saints are gathered AND where Jesus isn't present."

13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.

14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.

15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 12:21 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 10:03 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 7:38 am

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 4:01 pm

You say it's morally wrong to interpret 3 Nephi 18:25 as referring to us coming into Christ's physical presence? What does "see" and "feel" mean then? Was not an approximate 10-hour audio visual aid just given on the very day Christ gave this commandment in verse 25? TEN HOURS! One by one, two thousand five hundred people walked up to Jesus and touched first His side, then His hands, and then His feet.

What was the point of this 10-hour investment of Jesus' time? Please think about it.

If it wasn't a real, literal commandment to see and feel Him, then why did he COMMAND every single person to come unto Him? You say it's wrong to assume it means this when the words plainly state so? The words are that I "have commanded that ye should come unto me, that ye might feel and see...".

But this doesn't mean "physically into his presence", you assert? And then He commands those who partook of this sacred "touching" ceremony / ordinance to go be a light to the world by saying, "even so shall ye do unto the world." In other words, take this commandment to the world.

If one doesn't do this, then Satan comes to sift you as wheat.

You see, there's but one God. Eternal Life is knowing Him. And being intimate with Him. Touching the marks is surely intimate, and the symbols so powerful that one cannot weep when contemplating such an event.

Isaiah may have given us a big clue as to what will happen when we are brought to that glorious perfect day:



Just perhaps, at that day, which you say it's wrong to assume verse 25 means what it says it means, we will hear God make a covenant with us, which shall be written on our hearts forever.

I honestly believe you are just reading it out of context. Read verses 22-24, this is the proper context. Specifically verse 22 Christ is speaking of the world coming unto them (the saints) in similitude of how they came unto Christ. Thus, when Christ leaves, the command is to bring the world unto the gathered body of saints. That's how it is to be understood.

I have tried to see your interpretation. My sentence by sentence analysis/ commentary:

22: ye shall meet together oft.

Plainly stated. 'Meet frequently', he says to the people.

22: ye shall not forbid any man from coming unto you....

"You" refers to the people. "Coming unto you" refers to attending a meeting / gathering. None shall be forbidden to join. No closed meetings.

The word "you" is used several times in verse 22, and it's referring to the people.

25: I have commanded that none of you should go away...

"You" is referring to the people present, the 2,500 people mentioned at the end of chapter 17. This is the group that has been there with Christ since Chapter 11 when they felt Christ's wounds.

25: ...but rather have commanded that ye should come unto me...

Christ is plainly saying "come unto me". This is a familiar phrase. It's used 18 times in the OT, 8 times in the NT, 35 times in the BoM, and 4 times in the D&C. That's 65 times total. We have, in the Church, and even Christians outside the Church, taken this phrase, "come unto me" to be strictly a metaphorical expression. Become LIKE Christ, or progress towards Christ. That is absolutely a correct interpretation. But also ABSOLUTELY correct and yet totally skipped over is the LITERAL meaning of "come physically into my physical presence." Christians are duped by the false doctrine of the Trinity. But Mormons have less of an excuse for their failure to understand the literal meaning. We are taught the Christ has a physical body and can be touched. That is a basic, core belief of Mormonism.

So verse 25's phrase "come unto me" at the very least has the metaphorical AND literal meaning, to Mormons. The next part of the verse removes doubt as to the meaning Christ intends in this verse by commanding, "come unto me."

25: come unto me, that ye might feel and see;

If you were/are in the metaphorical camp, well, Christ serves notice that you should jump with both feet into the other camp. Christ is speaking literally here when he says, "come unto me". He specifies the very reason He wants us (you, me, and everybody....even "the world") to come unto Him. That specific reason is that we might "feel" and "see" Him. What might that involve? The big clue is in Chapter 11, isn't it? He command us to feel the wound in His side, and the wounds in His hands and feet. This is a commandment. And it makes sense WHY He would give such a commandment. I don't pretend to understand all the WHY's, but I know this hands-on ceremony must needs be centered on the greatest event in human history -- the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

25: even so shall ye do unto the world.

"Ye" is referring to the people there who touched Jesus. You appear to sincerely be interpreting this to mean, as you said above, to "bring the world unto the gathered body of saints."

I'm really not sure what to say with that interpretation. You must agree your interpretation is a "stretch" because 1) the verse does NOT literally say what you're alleging it says, 2) you're bringing in a separate commandment from a verse 3 verses earlier and connecting the completely second commandment to the first (but they are in fact separated), and 3) you are ignoring the phrase which removes all doubt as to the meaning, "that ye might feel and see" Christ as He just that very day had 2500 people come and do.

You appear to be sincere. If you are, then I ask you, if your interpretation has validity, which means you are canceling out the actual words expressed by Christ (to "feel and see" Him), what would be the value of canceling out the meaning Christ clearly expressed?

If we were to ask, "Why would Christ want everyone to come unto Him, to feel and see Him?" even the dullest tools in the shed could get the answer right. "Well, it's so we can know the Savior and that He really did suffer and die for us." Obviously, seeing and feeling the Savior's wounds would be a major event in the life of any man, woman, or child. It would be unforgettable. It would be the object lesson of all object lessons! In the case of these Nephites, it impacted that entire civilization for well over 100 years, and into the 3rd century. 4 Nephi details the impact this ceremony had on the people.

Now compare the impact of Christ's commandment expressed in verse 25 with your vastly watered-down interpretation that it means, "Come unto where the saints are gathered AND where Jesus isn't present."

I mean, come on, brother. Seriously? You're gonna stick with your interpretation, "That's how it is to be understood"?

If so, let's agree to disagree. Peace be unto you.

I just point out to the objective reader here that there are people in the Church who will go to great lengths to defend the Church leaders' omissions of key Christian/ Mormon doctrine. This commandment, found in 3 Nephi 18:25 is unquestionably overlooked, ignored, and belittled by the Church. That is a fact that can be arrived at because NOBODY preaches this sermon that I'm pointing out the BoM teaches. We in the Church, collectively, take the BoM lightly, due to our vanity and unbelief, to our own condemnation (DC 84).

The die-hard Church defenders here will not even give this sermon revealed here in this thread a THUMBS UP. To them, it's like I am the enemy and must be attacked and ridiculed no matter what, even if the doctrine I'm teaching is true and plain to the understanding of man.

Or will DrTanner and BrLenox and their camp give a shout out to this doctrine taught right here in chapter 18? Cannot we come to a unity of faith on this doctrine?

For one thing, I never read where touching Christ was a ceremony. For another, Im not sure where or how you are arriving at touching Christ is a commandment for all. I have a hard time believing that billions of people will have to touch Christ as part of a ceremony in order to be saved from hell. This all is not doctrine at all. Perhaps you could point to more modern scripture found in the D& C that mentions this ceremony you speak of?

topcat wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 1:05 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 12:21 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 10:03 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 7:38 am

I honestly believe you are just reading it out of context. Read verses 22-24, this is the proper context. Specifically verse 22 Christ is speaking of the world coming unto them (the saints) in similitude of how they came unto Christ. Thus, when Christ leaves, the command is to bring the world unto the gathered body of saints. That's how it is to be understood.

I have tried to see your interpretation. My sentence by sentence analysis/ commentary:

22: ye shall meet together oft.

Plainly stated. 'Meet frequently', he says to the people.

22: ye shall not forbid any man from coming unto you....

"You" refers to the people. "Coming unto you" refers to attending a meeting / gathering. None shall be forbidden to join. No closed meetings.

The word "you" is used several times in verse 22, and it's referring to the people.

25: I have commanded that none of you should go away...

"You" is referring to the people present, the 2,500 people mentioned at the end of chapter 17. This is the group that has been there with Christ since Chapter 11 when they felt Christ's wounds.

25: ...but rather have commanded that ye should come unto me...

Christ is plainly saying "come unto me". This is a familiar phrase. It's used 18 times in the OT, 8 times in the NT, 35 times in the BoM, and 4 times in the D&C. That's 65 times total. We have, in the Church, and even Christians outside the Church, taken this phrase, "come unto me" to be strictly a metaphorical expression. Become LIKE Christ, or progress towards Christ. That is absolutely a correct interpretation. But also ABSOLUTELY correct and yet totally skipped over is the LITERAL meaning of "come physically into my physical presence." Christians are duped by the false doctrine of the Trinity. But Mormons have less of an excuse for their failure to understand the literal meaning. We are taught the Christ has a physical body and can be touched. That is a basic, core belief of Mormonism.

So verse 25's phrase "come unto me" at the very least has the metaphorical AND literal meaning, to Mormons. The next part of the verse removes doubt as to the meaning Christ intends in this verse by commanding, "come unto me."

25: come unto me, that ye might feel and see;

If you were/are in the metaphorical camp, well, Christ serves notice that you should jump with both feet into the other camp. Christ is speaking literally here when he says, "come unto me". He specifies the very reason He wants us (you, me, and everybody....even "the world") to come unto Him. That specific reason is that we might "feel" and "see" Him. What might that involve? The big clue is in Chapter 11, isn't it? He command us to feel the wound in His side, and the wounds in His hands and feet. This is a commandment. And it makes sense WHY He would give such a commandment. I don't pretend to understand all the WHY's, but I know this hands-on ceremony must needs be centered on the greatest event in human history -- the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

25: even so shall ye do unto the world.

"Ye" is referring to the people there who touched Jesus. You appear to sincerely be interpreting this to mean, as you said above, to "bring the world unto the gathered body of saints."

I'm really not sure what to say with that interpretation. You must agree your interpretation is a "stretch" because 1) the verse does NOT literally say what you're alleging it says, 2) you're bringing in a separate commandment from a verse 3 verses earlier and connecting the completely second commandment to the first (but they are in fact separated), and 3) you are ignoring the phrase which removes all doubt as to the meaning, "that ye might feel and see" Christ as He just that very day had 2500 people come and do.

You appear to be sincere. If you are, then I ask you, if your interpretation has validity, which means you are canceling out the actual words expressed by Christ (to "feel and see" Him), what would be the value of canceling out the meaning Christ clearly expressed?

If we were to ask, "Why would Christ want everyone to come unto Him, to feel and see Him?" even the dullest tools in the shed could get the answer right. "Well, it's so we can know the Savior and that He really did suffer and die for us." Obviously, seeing and feeling the Savior's wounds would be a major event in the life of any man, woman, or child. It would be unforgettable. It would be the object lesson of all object lessons! In the case of these Nephites, it impacted that entire civilization for well over 100 years, and into the 3rd century. 4 Nephi details the impact this ceremony had on the people.

Now compare the impact of Christ's commandment expressed in verse 25 with your vastly watered-down interpretation that it means, "Come unto where the saints are gathered AND where Jesus isn't present."

I mean, come on, brother. Seriously? You're gonna stick with your interpretation, "That's how it is to be understood"?

If so, let's agree to disagree. Peace be unto you.

I just point out to the objective reader here that there are people in the Church who will go to great lengths to defend the Church leaders' omissions of key Christian/ Mormon doctrine. This commandment, found in 3 Nephi 18:25 is unquestionably overlooked, ignored, and belittled by the Church. That is a fact that can be arrived at because NOBODY preaches this sermon that I'm pointing out the BoM teaches. We in the Church, collectively, take the BoM lightly, due to our vanity and unbelief, to our own condemnation (DC 84).

The die-hard Church defenders here will not even give this sermon revealed here in this thread a THUMBS UP. To them, it's like I am the enemy and must be attacked and ridiculed no matter what, even if the doctrine I'm teaching is true and plain to the understanding of man.

Or will DrTanner and BrLenox and their camp give a shout out to this doctrine taught right here in chapter 18? Cannot we come to a unity of faith on this doctrine?

For one thing, I never read where touching Christ was a ceremony. For another, Im not sure where or how you are arriving at touching Christ is a commandment for all. I have a hard time believing that billions of people will have to touch Christ as part of a ceremony in order to be saved from hell. This all is not doctrine at all. Perhaps you could point to more modern scripture found in the D& C that mentions this ceremony you speak of?

This ceremony of touching Christ is given center stage in 3 Nephi 11. It is a sneak preview of something very sacred, so sacred that people who've experienced the ceremony of recognition are put under a gag order, if you will, of sharing the details. Verse 25 is where I "arrive" at the idea that "touching Christ is a commandment for all."

Something more modern, though corrupted, that points to this touch-feel ceremony is the temple ceremony in various parts. Think of the signs and tokens and relate it to the subject at hand (no pun intended). The temple ceremony points us to the event where we are brought into the presence of God. It's symbolic of the real thing.

The reason why you've not read of these things is because, as Amos prophesied, the days did come, "saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord." Thankfully, that day of famine has passed and we can be partakers of light if we have ears to hear and eyes to see.

"Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?" (read all of Ezek 34 if you want to understand why you've "never read" of these things.