Random thoughts...

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Silver Pie
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Re: Random thoughts...

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Thinker wrote: February 27th, 2020, 7:32 pm Do you have an adult child with homosexual preferences? I thought you said so on another forum.
No. I have friends like that but no children and, as far as I know, no relatives with those tendencies.

My sister once told me I was cruel because I didn’t go along with her denial. I can be blunt - but I try to speak truth as nicely as possible.
. . .
You may not have meant this but claims of others being cruel, heartless, uncaring etc kind of reminds me of gaslighting homosexual supporters use to deflect their own bad choices and harmful consequences.
That is not what I was talking about at all. I was talking about things like the way your children have been treated by those who are too blind to see that their well-meaning words and actions were unkind, as well as the experiences of those on this forum of bishops denying much needed food, yet still demanding tithing.

I have had quite a few friends, and some extended family with homosexual preferences. Each of them were like all my grandma’s therapy homosexual patients - they had sexual abuse - sometimes their parents had no idea.
I read a study back before it was considered antithetical to humans do so. It seems like all of the homosexuals they studied had been sexually abused by men. A very large percentage of the male homosexuals had domineering mothers. A larger percentage had emotionally absent fathers (physically absent, or just not prone to giving them the physical/emotional/verbal signs of affection that little children need. But, concerning sexual abuse, there were important ages for this reaction to happen, at least among the girls (I don't recall about the boys). The age I was when I was kidnapped was too young for this reaction to happen.

And it played out like that among the friends I had whose private stories I knew.

But with the politicizing of the behavior, I don't know anymore how many might be doing it for those reasons and how many might be doing it because it is being encouraged. ("exploration" - a viable alternative way to live)

I don't want you to misunderstand me. I don't think it's the right way to live. I think the roots, though, are caused by factors beyond the control of each individual who has fought and lost, being unable to want the opposite sex. I imagine that it is as foreign and incomprehensible to them as it is foreign and incomprehensible to me to be attracted to a woman. If there is a solution to this in this life (and that may be a big if), only the Savior can do the healing.

I don't jump on the bandwagon of alarm about gay people or "the gay agenda" because, put simply, there are far worse sins in my book. In fact, the Book of Mormon doesn't even mention that - but it mentions pride over and over and over again. It mentions grinding on the face of the poor because of fine sanctuaries. It mentions care for the poor several times. It talks about God giving his power to men. It pegs the LDS Church to a T, but does not say anything about same sex attraction. Thus I am led to conclude that there are worse behaviors than that.

It isn't my place to judge my fellow beings who grapple with a tendency I cannot comprehend, or to be alarmed by something that does not harm me (homosexual =/= predator, rapist, child molester, etc. It just doesn't). God is in charge. And, besides that, I cannot look at the intricacies of the human mind in a black and white manner. Humans are far too complex and nuanced for me to judge why they do what they do, and I am too full of sin to pretend I stand on higher ground simply because my issues are different than theirs. Neither am I threatened by their lifestyle because I know them, genuinely know them.

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Thinker
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Re: Random thoughts...

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I’m not threatened by them personally when they aren’t hurting me. Yet, I and many others HAVE been hurt by having homosexuality jammed in our faces, overturning our democratic vote, having our children taught lies & being bullied & denied free speech. It proves to be harmful yet it’s deceptively portrayed as “gay/happy rainbows.” And many who have dared disagree - including me - have been hurt. And many practicing homosexuality - including 2 friends of mine - have died of AIDS.

Actually scriptures DO warn against homosexuality, not just in the Old Testament. In fact, the NT book of Revelation talks about the final killing of 2 churches (& 2 olive trees some interpret as 2 prophets) committed by “Sodom.” And yep, they have been infiltrating churches, gradually will accomplish their goal of either taking over or closing/“killing” churches who don’t accept their sexual disorders.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Random thoughts...

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Thinker wrote: February 27th, 2020, 10:13 pm I’m not threatened by them personally when they aren’t hurting me.
I'm not personally threatened by heterosexuals when they are not hurting me, either. But I've been hurt by homosexual people nearly zero times, and hurt by heterosexual people more times than I can count.

There does seem to be an agenda, and I also totally disagree with having it being shoved in everyone's faces. I wrote what I think above.
Actually scriptures DO warn against homosexuality
I did not say "scriptures". I said the Book of Mormon. To me, it's more trustworthy than the Bible.

My point was not to say homosexuality is right, but that apparently God gets upset about things like pride, glutting on the labors of the poor, and not helping the poor but that homosexuality might be more complicated than we'd like to believe and is one of the lesser things that are messed up in this world. Now, there are things that can spring from that that can hurt others; same with heterosexuality.

The NT has a place where it says the men leave the "natural use" of the women and turn to each other. That's pretty plain to me that it's talking about same sex relations.

The OT says Sodom's great sin was pride (the men wanting Lot's visitors wanted to rape them, an act of dominance, not romantic attraction). The law of Moses probably warns against it. I know it warns against having relations with beasts (in fact, I first read the OT all the way through as a teenager and learned a lot more sins than I ever could have conceived on my own. It left a filthy taste in my mind).

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Thinker
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Re: Random thoughts...

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SilverPie,
I agree that pride is bad, but so is sickness and death disguised as “gay rainbows.” At least pride is not such a flat out misrepresentation. If you want to compare the harm of sin, look at what does the most damage. IMO, the #1 threat to humanity is MOB mentality, which is achieved primarily through willful blindness. Ironically, this mob mentality of “if you don’t think as we do - off with your head” - is expressed in both homosexual mobs (who want government to hold people at gunpoint to be forced to say a man is a woman etc) and even within our church (who go along with spiritual killings/ex-communications). The ideologies differ but the mob mentality is quite similar. And so is the willful blindness. “The church robs the poor? Just ignore that.” “Homosexuality statistically leads to sickness and early death? Just ignore that.”

Willful blindness.

The Book of Mormon is jammed at us, while ignoring the New Testament. No wonder many don’t consider us Christians! While my appreciation of all scripture is based on how it can help improve this world NOW, I see it as a lie to pretend it’s historical fact when it isn’t. At least the Bible is acknowledged to have some archeological proof (https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... logically/), but not so for the Book of Mormon. In fact, there is more proof it is not historical. (https://mit.irr.org/book-of-mormon-archaeology-full) Still, I see truth in the Book of Mormon - but symbolic, not historical.

Homosexuality IS being shoved in our faces, and free speech is increasingly denied.
Image
https://www.endtime.com/articles-endtim ... ca-behind/

Homosexual lies or “desensitizing” tactics bombard us & our children in Disney shows, Boy Scouts, schools & curriculum text books citing discredited “studies,” government, a lot of media - music, tv shows, internet, movies - besides parading sexual deviations so we can’t even cross the street. I’ve never seen a “heterosexual parade.” Many have been fined or otherwise punished for speaking facts that homosexual fanatics didn’t like. Again, free speech is often denied or punished (as with ANTIFA) - the attempt to make EVERYONE blind.

There are people who are blind “know not what they do” - delusional - unable to see reality. Then there are those who can see but then go along with evil and willful blindness to feel accepted by mobs, or by other sources of evil. Someone once said that parents who stand by watching their child be sexually abused without doing anything are in some ways, more evil than those who delusionally abuse, because they know better but don’t act on it. Paraphrasing: “Evil triumphs because good people do nothing.”

Willful blindness is what makes mob mentality so harmful. It’s not just the relatively smaller groups of homosexual mobs and cults... look at China. How many go along willfully blind! That’s how Mao killed more people than the Holocaust and Soviet Union famine & killings combined. All of those and other similar tyrannies were able to accomplish such evil because of willfully blind mob mentality.

I see that mentality in homosexual lies and I try to bring awareness to it, so it’s not so blind. You seem to want to cover up - keep people blind, and join in mob mentality that tries to silence anyone who dares uncover the harmful truths. You arguing for homosexuality in this rarely visited sub-forum, but never on the more visited forums is suspicious. It reminds me when you pm’d asking me to post something you didn’t want to post (maybe because you didn’t want the personal attacks), I posted it ... then you joined others in attacking me! SilverPie, I think you have a good heart and are often reasonable. But I have seen some of your actions that have caused me to step back.

I understand the appeal to emotion - which sometimes causes us to be extra polite, and in some cases overly supportive of evil mascaraded as good, as homosexuality is. I do believe we all are children of God and therefore inherently good - & inherently want to do good - through trial & error. I understand that when someone is sexually abused or otherwise sexually confused, they feel like they can’t help but be attracted in disordered ways. And of course everyone loves to love and feel loved. That’s understandable, but I won’t go along with lies that hurt people.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Random thoughts...

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I think the "gay rights movement's" sin is pride. It obviously isn't the only behavior that is linked to pride, though, as you rightly point out in your posts on abuse of the poor.

It appears to have begun with certain people tired of being beat up, shunned, even killed at times (which I can totally understand and I believe that no one should hurt others) but it has evolved into something of a nightmare for those who don't want that lifestyle touted as the right way to live, as "do everything I want and support this lifestyle wholeheartedly or the gov't will punish you." That is wrong. If I had children in kindergarten or grade school, for example, I would not want the schools to make sure they knew that same sex parents was a good thing; at the same time, I would hope that the examples of myself and those around them would teach them that if there are same sex couples/parents, then those people ought to be as respected as anyone else.

Mob mentality is the worst, and I do have concerns that mob mentality is being affixed to this at times and in places. But mob mentality can happen with anything. It is never good, imo.

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Random thoughts...

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God grants unto His children according to their desires and wants. He gives directives that promote our growth, progression and safety. He knows what works and what doesn't. He has given us the premortal endowment of the "Light of Christ" or conscience to direct us. Some of our earliest experiences with our "inner voice" have come through exposure to having done something that would later yield bad feelings of remorse and guilt. We have experienced these things when we have "gone against Nature," as it were. If listened to, it can become our "beacon;" Liahona. If not, it will quit giving us direction and lo and behold, the "Light" and the "Spirit" will quit striving with us because we refuse to listen and acknowledge their guidance.

People who learn to listen to these "inner voices" have learned "self-discipline." This is the very first key to "government." One must learn to govern themselves prior to attempting to govern another. Original "Law" was "Family Law" and from thence has sprung societal laws and "national" governments - all claiming "sovereignty." Originally what was one family has become "broken up" and "divided" because of differences . . . most of which have to do with "selfishness" and "pride."

Society has the right to protect and preserve Society - It can be shown that homosexuality is contrary to the virtues that cultivate and propagate such. It is a devastating, parasitic and selfish form of behavior that undermines the very fiber of Nature. It is a hollow and barren form of self-indulgence that leaves nothing of value in terms of legacy. It has no true form of perpetuation except through "borrowing" the fruits of heterosexual relationships through the "brain washing" techniques of "coming out" and "acting out." The discrimination that is created is that of self-incrimination by divulging information that is not readily identifiable except through "self-identification;" having resemblance of placing a "chip on ones shoulder" and daring another to knock it off. I believe in "live and let live" and that what people do in private is their own business; however, when it comes to putting their perverse and errant behavior "in my face" and attempting to validate, justify and flaunt their sins as a Societally and Civilly acceptable form of behavior is reprehensible. I don't really care to know other people's sexual identifications or preferences - don't "bait me" and set me up by self-identifying as a sexual deviant and then wonder why I employ avoidance. Get the chip off your shoulder and quit declaring "foul" and "discrimination" if I choose to avoid your company. Your "inalienable right" of the pursuit of happiness does not trump my "inalienable right" to liberty of free speech and religious belief. Quit employing force in an attempt to take away my agency and liberty.

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Re: Random thoughts...

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BruceRGilbert wrote: March 6th, 2020, 11:52 pm... He has given us the premortal endowment of the "Light of Christ" or conscience to direct us. Some of our earliest experiences with our "inner voice" have come through exposure to having done something that would later yield bad feelings of remorse and guilt. We have experienced these things when we have "gone against Nature," as it were. If listened to, it can become our "beacon;" Liahona. If not, it will quit giving us direction and lo and behold, the "Light" and the "Spirit" will quit striving with us because we refuse to listen and acknowledge their guidance...
So true, Bruce.

In thinking about old friends, I realize for some it’s like we have taken such different paths. Sure, we each could go visit the path we once shared but we couldn’t live there again. We just don’t live in the same way anymore.

Years ago, as a teen, like many friends - both in & out of the church - I experimented with drugs and alcohol. After many years, I visited a friend who I used to party with. Her husband had died, leaving her with young kids & I felt the Spirit to go visit her & help as I could. I thought about staying with her & giving her money I would’ve spent on a hotel. But I felt spiritually guided to get a hotel instead. That prompting was right because after I took her & her kids home one day, she came in & started doing drugs. If cops came when I was there, I would be in trouble too. I was glad to be able to leave without hard feelings. We visited again - but I was glad I had heeded spiritual guidance. And it worked out because her kids came to the hotel to swim & they loved that.

There have been a lot of small but significant spiritual promptings that have helped me throughout my life. I’m very grateful.

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Random thoughts...

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Thinker wrote: March 25th, 2020, 10:11 pm In thinking about old friends, I realize for some it’s like we have taken such different paths. Sure, we each could go visit the path we once shared but we couldn’t live there again. We just don’t live in the same way anymore.

Years ago, as a teen, like many friends - both in & out of the church - I experimented with drugs and alcohol. After many years, I visited a friend who I used to party with. Her husband had died, leaving her with young kids & I felt the Spirit to go visit her & help as I could. I thought about staying with her & giving her money I would’ve spent on a hotel. But I felt spiritually guided to get a hotel instead. That prompting was right because after I took her & her kids home one day, she came in & started doing drugs. If cops came when I was there, I would be in trouble too. I was glad to be able to leave without hard feelings. We visited again - but I was glad I had heeded spiritual guidance. And it worked out because her kids came to the hotel to swim & they loved that.

There have been a lot of small but significant spiritual promptings that have helped me throughout my life. I’m very grateful.
The value of "experience" is tremendous because it affords us the ability to learn the "why" of things. Falling and failing is a valuable asset to have because it gives us "practical knowledge" and "common sense." It is a misfortune; however, that not all people "get it."

Our lives are kinda based on a "balancing scale." On one side are the good things and feelings of happiness and joy. On the other side are the bad with feelings of sadness and misery. In the middle; at the fulcrum, is our agency in choosing. It would seem that there is "temporary" satisfaction that is "self-serving" when we tip the scales toward the bad. Initially it feels pretty liberating to "self satisfy," until those feelings become "negative" and "overwhelming." It has been my experience that doing "bad things," renders a "temporary pleasure," as it were. We feel satisfaction for a fleeting moment and then it is gone. Those who aren't wise, continue repeating the behavior to attain the "ironic" FIX until they are trapped and at this juncture, they are caught and bound in the chains of addiction. The "light of Christ" of our conscience warns us of the "negative tip" until we no longer heed its corrective directing, supposing that we are "mature" and know what we want. Such is the loss of common sense and the reality of having limited our ability to choose and "self-correct."

For the person with "common sense," such as yourself, Thinker, the balance; your agency, recognizes through "introspection" that the "system" is out of kilter. The "restorative" power of the Light of Christ, coupled with the "experience" of cognition and feeling; "common sense" allows for "re-direction." When the "comparative" feelings become personally overwhelming and the "vacancy" of not having the "good" in one's life becomes overwhelming in the blatant and painful recognition of their absence; "Godly Sorrow," the corrective weight of guilt and longing gain restorative powers motivating us to act in the restoration of the "balance." The "successful" life is the one that, at minimum, has corrected the balance and at the maximum, has totally resolved any desire for wrong doing and recognizes the slightest "flutter" in the balance in the other direction - the scales are positively biased.

It is very ironic to me, Thinker, that EVIL is LIVE spelled backwards. People who are EVIL are the ones who have biased the scales completely in the negative direction and no longer care; their "give a damn" is broken. They don't care about others and they don't care about themselves. In fact, their scales are so far biased that they desire to harm others in a type of sadistic, sick satisfaction. I lament that they arrive at this condition.

Thank you for sharing the "practical" application of this, Thinker. God bless you in your efforts because it is all about "the CHILDREN." They are those who are the innocent victims of agencies that act upon them without regard for their well being and protection. Intelligence, wisdom and maturity dictate that we protect, preserve and enlighten them with our best possible efforts - they are our future. The Gospel of Jesus Christ IS the curriculum vitae, this I know.

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Re: Random thoughts...

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BruceRGilbert wrote: March 26th, 2020, 1:06 pm..."Godly Sorrow," the corrective weight of guilt and longing gain restorative powers motivating us to act in the restoration of the "balance." The "successful" life is the one that, at minimum, has corrected the balance and at the maximum, has totally resolved any desire for wrong doing and recognizes the slightest "flutter" in the balance in the other direction - the scales are positively biased.

It is very ironic to me, Thinker, that EVIL is LIVE spelled backwards. People who are EVIL are the ones who have biased the scales completely in the negative direction and no longer care; their "give a damn" is broken. They don't care about others and they don't care about themselves. In fact, their scales are so far biased that they desire to harm others in a type of sadistic, sick satisfaction. I lament that they arrive at this condition.

... God bless you in your efforts because it is all about "the CHILDREN." They are those who are the innocent victims of agencies that act upon them without regard for their well being and protection...
Thanks again, Bruce. I appreciate wisdom you share.

Interesting to think of evil as “live” backwards. Sometimes - especially when I feel the pain people cause me, or those I care about - I am so filled with anger that some thoughts are evil & I pray repenting. When I ask for God’s help - I usually feel the spirit and it’s helped me realize that anger does serve a purpose but like fire - it can easily get out of control so there must be regularly practiced self-control not just in action but also thought.

We each have free agency & especially as adults, we need to take response-ability of our thoughts, feelings & actions. Yet, part of that response-ability is not being too self-punitive & realizing that some baggage is not chosen by us, but given to us as children. Eg: That friend who smokes pot in front of her kids, is displaying what she experienced earlier. As kids, we hung out at her house & watched her mom get drunk every day in front of her kids. When her step-dad, who smoked, found her with cigarettes, he made her eat the pack which made her sick. Plus this friend of mine’s husband died & left her with 2 young kids.

Who knows - maybe many of us would do as her, if we had similar experiences. A friend who helped me through my truth-crisis (faith crisis) said, “If God were in your shoes, he’d be doing the same thing you are.” It’s similar to the psychological shadow in all... “in each of us is a bit of all of us.”

Regarding balance, I have spent much of my life feeling overly responsible for others - and more aware of others’ thoughts & feelings than my own. I feel spiritually guided to focus more on what I think and feel.

Even on this forum, much of my writing is because I feel obligated to try to help others see & learn things that would help them suffer less. But often my faulty delivery &/or others’ lack of desire causes it to backfire. Besides, who am I to think that I am so godly as to be so responsible and influential? You & I disagree about some things but is that so bad? Can we still find common ground & learn from one another? One thing the cult does is facilitate herd mentality (aka “of one mind” - sounds better ;) ). Everyone must think alike. It’s not “I believe” - It’s “WE believe.” And the opportunity for growth - forget it because testimonies are “I KNOW the church is blue” etc. There is a conceited pride that “WE KNOW BETTER” so “every member a missionary.” After a life time of believing that, does it just disappear once new truths that make the church’s evil known - are discovered? Of course not! And yet, again, trying to force people to see truths they’re not ready for &/or which I am not sharing well (because there is no new handbook for truth crisis) - tends to backfire.

Plus, I’ve got plenty of work to do on my own soul - lots of unlearning and learning. As I was listening to inspiring non-lds music I’ve felt the spirit & better feeling than I feel when I listen to some lds hymns. Some religious music has felt evil, ironically. Much of spiritual resonation depends on someone personally - which is why Buddha suggested people cherish inspiring aspects of the religion of their youth - no matter what religion that was. Also implied is to let go of religious aspects which depress the soul. There is a possible element of “opposition” that sneaks into sources many look to for GOoD. So much - especially lately - is mixed up - bad portrayed as good & vice versa. Consider how much is out there - so much in this too-much-information-age! One’s time & energy are - precious. I MUST be more selective.
Last edited by Thinker on May 31st, 2020, 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Random thoughts...

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Thinker wrote: May 26th, 2020, 10:51 am Thanks again, Bruce. I appreciate wisdom you share.

Wisdom, if it be present, is fraught from the fortification against one's own foolishness. It is from having been a fool and despising its consequences. So, to be quite honest, I am simultaneously foolish AND stupid - that I might find wisdom and intelligence in the counter-reinforcement of my weaknesses. Life and "living" is the grappling with "self" in all of its faceted manifestations. It is "self" that we will ever really experience in this life, prior to our post-mortal, life review when we will be allowed to experience the consciousness; thoughts and feelings, of those with whom we interacted. It is in THAT interaction; the experiencing of the consciousness of others, that will wield the "oneness" and "realization" of responsibility and "ownership" of influence and causation. I would, in the eventuality, desire and care to be responsible for "goodness," rather than the contrary. I will have wanted to at least have made a difference in someone else's life; consciousness for the better.

Interesting to think of evil as “live” backwards. Sometimes - especially when I feel the pain people cause me, or those I care about - I am so filled with anger that some thoughts are evil & I pray repenting. When I ask for God’s help - I usually feel the spirit and it’s helped me realize that anger does serve a purpose but like fire - it can easily get out of control so there must be regularly practiced self-control not just in action but also thought.

In the essential awakening and realization about our existence, the knowledge of our own capability and power is best contained and limited to that one thing: self-control. The only "agency" or "entity" that we will ever be able to really control is ourselves - and that, too, by the grace of God via the constraint of will and virtues of patience and charity. I absolutely marvel at God's virtues in this regard.

We each have free agency & especially as adults, we need to take response-ability of our thoughts, feelings & actions. Yet, part of that response-ability is not being too self-punitive & realizing that some baggage is not chosen by us, but given to us as children. Eg: That friend who smokes pot in front of her kids, is displaying what she experienced earlier. As kids, we hung out at her house & watched her mom get drunk every day in front of her kids. When her step-dad, who smoked, found her with cigarettes, he made her eat the pack which made her sick. Plus this friend of mine’s husband died & left her with 2 young kids.

As I read this paragraph, Thinker, I wanted to emphasize several principles with respect to "when" and "where" we are born which helps to address the important "why." In doing so, I wish to base it on the classic discourse given by Paul that establishes the first and foremost principle of God's Social Engineering. You were placed "deliberately" in certain conditions according to God's foreknowledge, as hereby established:

"Acts 17:
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device."


Therefore, God determined the experiences that He would allow you to have - not that He caused them, but that He knew what they would be, giving you "context." Additional "context" would be given to each one of us as we were given "spiritual gifts" in addition to "weaknesses:"

"Ether 12:
27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness."


God's foreknowledge ought to be recognized as the "Seer-ship" of observation rather than the "Authorship" of causation. He is not "responsible" for the "choices" of independent agencies - though He knows what those choices will be, as well as their consequences. He is involved in the "optimization" and "leveraging" of progression and righteousness of that "agency" that chooses goodness, positiveness and virtue.

Who knows - maybe many of us would do as her, if we had similar experiences. A friend who helped me through my truth-crisis (faith crisis) said, “If God were in your shoes, he’d be doing the same thing you are.” It’s similar to the psychological shadow in all... “in each of us is a bit of all of us.”

Certainly this is an important realization. It is important to recognize that portion which is held in commonality with others, but, too, that portion which is "unique." In realizing who each one of us is, "uniqueness" is paramount to individual identity, that we not be lost in the "hole/whole."

"Doctrine and Covenants 130:
2 And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy."


Regarding balance, I have spent much of my life feeling overly responsible for others - and more aware of others’ thoughts & feelings than my own. Recently I realized that if I had felt validated to honor my own thoughts & feelings, I never would have married who I did. When my now-husband & I were dating I worked nights & was sleeping when he came by & since I didn’t answer, he broke in through the balcony. Rather than be upset with his illegal, inappropriate action, I felt embarrassed for him. I tried to make him feel better - rather than seeing the red flag for what it was. Now I’m seeing more clearly, & with kids to raise still, God help me. I feel spiritually guided to focus more on what I think and feel.

Thinker, each one of us in commonality, have to "justify" or "square" our individual behaviors and actions - whether consciously or unconsciously. The "balancing" of the scales of judgment/justice have to do with outcome. It is the deliberation of is it going to be worth the consequences. We process and compare the worth of the outcome in terms of effort and reward. Is the fulfillment of our "desire" or "care" going to worth the expenditure of effort and enjoyment of the outcome? Do we; however, understand the real consequences in the process? What is the real price of our "self-fulfillment?" Does it come as a result of the suffering of another "agency?" In this thing, we are either innocent; free of guilt or not. It is apparent to me; I believe within certain degrees of freedom, that your "awareness" of others thoughts and feelings are projections of your idea of who they are; ("yourself") onto them. As I began this posting in response to your comments, I mentioned about not really knowing what others "consciousness" consists of without it being "experienced" ourselves. In the least, they can; however, be communicated. Actions communicate something about what is going on inside someone else's consciousness. The process of how they "justify" their behavior has been pre-decided before the action occurs, unless it is a "reaction." The embarrassment and compensation that you made speaks highly of who you are. I don't believe that your husband determined or processed his behavior the same way that you did.

Even on this forum, much of my writing is because I feel obligated to try to help others see & learn things that would help them suffer less. But often my faulty delivery &/or others’ lack of desire causes it to backfire. Besides, who am I to think that I am so godly as to be so responsible and influential? You & I disagree about some things but is that so bad? Can we still find common ground & learn from one another? One thing the cult does is facilitate herd mentality (aka “of one mind” - sounds better ). Everyone must think alike. It’s not “I believe” - It’s “WE believe.” And the opportunity for growth - forget it because testimonies are “I KNOW the church is blue” etc. There is a conceited pride that “WE KNOW BETTER” so “every member a missionary.” After a life time of believing that, does it just disappear once new truths that make the church’s evil known - are discovered? Of course not! And yet, again, trying to force people to see truths they’re not ready for &/or which I am not sharing well (because there is no new handbook for truth crisis) - tends to backfire.

Thinker, the thoughts and intents of your heart are manifest in your self-declaration and they are admirable. Your motivations are apparent and they are good. I observe that you are caught in the paradox of mortality; the reconciliation of perfection amidst imperfection. In essence it is the contradiction that exists in the realization that that which is imperfect cannot perceive that which is perfect. Do not despair or judge yourself too vigorously. We ALL have that disparity of perception. One can only perceive what one is or one has been. We can only observe and see what we are predisposed to see. When we change, our vision and perception changes. "When I was a child, I thought as a child . . . ." When I was a child, and innocent, the world was a simple, beautiful thing . . . and now that I am a man, it has transformed. It is the "Matrix" and the "Multiverse" that can only be revealed and explored through the "revelation;" communication of the perception of others extant of myself. It is as it is. (I am that I am and you are that you are.) It is as you say . . . but it is more. ;) It is everything and it is nothing, simultaneously. It is relative truth and we are in quest of the absolute. It is a good thing that we do not agree on everything or see eye to eye. The world would be a boring and void without the variety that exists. Certainly what is prized is the agreeableness within the disagreeableness. Without opposition in this space of entropy, there would be no upward propulsion, no effort. Please, Thinker, understand, I do not wish you to be me, to think like me and perceive like me - my grapple with me, instead of WE, is sufficient for my daily walk in this cold, dark, and dreary world. I see that you, too, have the same "commonality." We are alike, and, yet, we are different. Isn't it wonderful? Make the "grapple" within and what is "without" will diminish. My desire is for you to be perfectly you; whole, complete and fulfilled; innocent, holy, and pure - within.

Plus, I’ve got plenty of work to do on my own soul - lots of unlearning and learning. As I was listening to inspiring non-lds music I’ve felt the spirit & better feeling than I feel when I listen to some lds hymns. Some religious music has felt evil, ironically. Much of spiritual resonation depends on someone personally - which is why Buddha suggested people cherish inspiring aspects of the religion of their youth - no matter what religion that was. Also implied is to let go of religious aspects which depress the soul. There is a possible element of “opposition” that sneaks into sources many look to for GOoD. So much - especially lately - is mixed up - bad portrayed as good & vice versa. Consider how much is out there - so much in this too-much-information-age! One’s time & energy are - precious. I MUST be more selective.
Intertwined in the things that you spoke of, Thinker, that are quoted above are my thoughts, feelings and expressions. It is "my" reflection upon the journey that you have begun and I have undertaken. Thank you for sharing. God bless you that you never feel alone or isolated in the quest.

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BruceRGilbert wrote: May 29th, 2020, 2:56 pmWisdom, if it be present, is fraught from the fortification against one's own foolishness... Life and "living" is the grappling with "self" in all of its faceted manifestations... It is in THAT interaction; the experiencing of the consciousness of others, that will wield the "oneness" and "realization" of responsibility and "ownership" of influence and causation... I will have wanted to at least have made a difference in someone else's life; consciousness for the better...

The only "agency" or "entity" that we will ever be able to really control is ourselves - and that, too, by the grace of God via the constraint of will and virtues of patience and charity...

“26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device."

"Ether 12:
27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness."

...Do we; however, understand the real consequences in the process? What is the real price of our "self-fulfillment?"

...I believe within certain degrees of freedom, that your "awareness" of others thoughts and feelings are projections of your idea of who they are; ("yourself") onto them... The embarrassment and compensation that you made speaks highly of who you are. I don't believe that your husband determined or processed his behavior the same way that you did...

Thinker, the thoughts and intents of your heart are manifest in your self-declaration and they are admirable. Your motivations are apparent and they are good. I observe that you are caught in the paradox of mortality; the reconciliation of perfection amidst imperfection. In essence it is the contradiction that exists in the realization that that which is imperfect cannot perceive that which is perfect. Do not despair or judge yourself too vigorously. We ALL have that disparity of perception. One can only perceive what one is or one has been. We can only observe and see what we are predisposed to see. When we change, our vision and perception changes. "When I was a child, I thought as a child . . . ." When I was a child, and innocent, the world was a simple, beautiful thing . . . and now that I am a man, it has transformed. It is the "Matrix" and the "Multiverse" that can only be revealed and explored through the "revelation;" communication of the perception of others extant of myself. It is as it is. (I am that I am and you are that you are.) It is as you say . . . but it is more. ;) It is everything and it is nothing, simultaneously. It is relative truth and we are in quest of the absolute. It is a good thing that we do not agree on everything or see eye to eye. The world would be a boring and void without the variety that exists. Certainly what is prized is the agreeableness within the disagreeableness. Without opposition in this space of entropy, there would be no upward propulsion, no effort. Please, Thinker, understand, I do not wish you to be me, to think like me and perceive like me - my grapple with me, instead of WE, is sufficient for my daily walk in this cold, dark, and dreary world. I see that you, too, have the same "commonality." We are alike, and, yet, we are different. Isn't it wonderful? Make the "grapple" within and what is "without" will diminish. My desire is for you to be perfectly you; whole, complete and fulfilled; innocent, holy, and pure - within.

... Thank you for sharing. God bless you that you never feel alone or isolated in the quest.
Wow, thanks, Bruce - inspiring words. You have often uplifted me and I’m grateful.

Life is struggle - opposition in all things. And I agree about the need to wrestle with God - grapple within and that limits the external grappling. :) But I realize not everyone is ready to grapple with the core issues. I used to be so lost - I think we all are to some extent (not knowing everything - faith based existence). This morning I thought of some extended family who have hurt me and who I have been so angry with. I got another glimpse of their suffering - how lost they feel. And the scripture idea came to me, “I was lost, but now I’m found.” Each time I’d deny something - it made me more lost to truth, and more insecure. I can see that in others and it helps stir up humility for being so angry and compassion - hoping they can find their way to less suffering, more joy.

This week, I’m teaching my kids about self control (as part of emotional intelligence) and in preparing for it, I realize I need to be a better example. I’m going to try being more proactive - like a good grappler who stands firm and doesn’t get knocked over easily (emotionally). :D

Great scriptures! I do believe our circumstances are appointed us as challenges that we can and need to handle to become stronger. Last week we talked about how internal motivation is more efficient than external motivation. Internal motivation to learn involves curiosity and being challenged. So, though challenges are often uncomfortable, they also can be blessings.

You’re so right to point out that consequences are often not considered when making decisions. We really need to take time to ponder and pray. When I seriously considered divorcing and breaking up our family, I went into nature for a while and thought and prayed & could kind of see likely consequences so I decided against it. My husband & I are very different - I was just telling him how he’s helped me in ways that I lacked. He’s a good guy in many ways and I’m grateful for that. Both of us have strengths and weaknesses as all do. Yet, I’m learning what’s important to me - trust, respect, shared values and reciprocity. I think these are necessary for a good relationship.

Thanks again for all your kindness, Bruce. God bless.

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Re: Random thoughts...

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I’m reading a book about high society +100 years ago and how only the rich were well-educated and went to finishing school to learn proper etiquette etc. Seems the pendulum has swung a bit the other way. ;)

Anyway, I was thinking... what would such a higher education/finishing school look like to God?

Etiquette is about consideration of others - but godly etiquette would consider more than just superficial appearances and immediate circumstances. Understanding complex concepts is considered the result of a good education but a godly education may be more experientially applying them for eternal benefits. Etiquette is about show - how godly can you appear but a godly etiquette would be genuine, which often is not concerned with appearance, thus less commonly recognized.

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This is for my own future reference and other parents of teenagers...
(not heretical but I will likely need it for a future easy-reference pep talk ;) ).

I feel the need to limit electronics & increase my kids’ productivity. (And I acknowledge my own need to be a better example.) As I have attempted this before & was met with arguments & resistance, I gave in. But I’m going to try again.

My job as a parent, in large part, is to prepare my child to eventually succeed in the world. When told to do a chore, teenagers are notorious for attitudes and arguing, often saying “It’s not fair! I hate this!” Sometimes they may present persuasive arguments, making us parents feel guilty for having the nerve to ask anything of them. Although I try to hold my own, I have often fell for their guilt trips, wanting to nurture them. But I have to remember as they get older, part of nurturing them is helping them move closer to independence. And part of that is inspiring or encouraging their desire to go out into the world. So, when they start with “I hate this! I can’t wait to move out!” I’ll smile to myself and mentally pat my back, knowing I’m helping them. :)

This is inspired by the truthfully wise and funny SinBad (clip below :38 - 1 minute).

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Be selective! Intelligence is “to choose between.”
Time is a preciously limited commodity - spend it wisely!
And when possible, establish routine habits that improve multiple aspects simultaneously.
Eg:
1) I narrowed down hymns that I actually believe.
2) I further narrowed down hymns with inspiring melodies.
3) From those, I selected hymns that sound good in another language I’m trying to learn.
4) From that selection, I reduced it even more to songs within (or slightly above) my voice pitch range.
5) ^Those hymns I will practice most, to be spiritually inspired, improve musical instrument practice, practice another language & singing.

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As a child, I memorized the lds articles of faith & my kids have too. It’s TRADITION!!! (Que Fiddler on the roof music)

How would it be if in school, our kids were given a list to memorize “WE BELIEVE” that the leftists/liberal political party gave? Or from another religion like Islam? The point is telling someone what to believe like that now seems wrong. We ought to each individually study things out & pray to figure out what we believe. It’s an individual thing.

“When everyone’s thinking the same, nobody’s thinking.”

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In context of oppressive measures lately, I’ve been wondering how religion is being used by oligarchy, and how it fits with the protocols/world tyrannical goals. And I wonder how this has happened historically.

Others’ comments:

“Doesn't dawn on them that first century Jews might have had an agenda in writing the Gospels. Like the take over of Rome and the West. And isn't that exactly what happened.”

But before that...

“Mr Atwill added: "They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system.
"That's when the 'peaceful' Messiah story was invented.
"Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to 'give onto Caesar' and pay their taxes to Rome.”
https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/ ... man-empire

Then, there’s the psychological and spiritual view suggesting Christ is the culmination of all that is GOoD. I like that, & generally focus on that. However, I acknowledge there are likely bits of truth in the other comments. So, as Thomas Jefferson carefully did, I also try to discern what scripture is of God & what isn’t.

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”Lord seeth fit to chastise his people.” -Mosiah 23
“Whom the Lord loveth he chastised.” -Hebrews 12
“As many as I love, I rebuke.” - Revelations 3


Yesterday, I experienced needed pruning of my soul. Humbling - not in a shameful way but in a way to make me realize some things - to learn, to realize I am so little compared to God and yet God loves me & helps me when I cry out, to depend more on God, to exercise faith so it overcomes fear. My faith, especially needs strengthening.

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Occasionally people have referred to TBM’s on this forum & others have been like “What is a TBM?”

Well, I have learned more about TBMs... here’s what a TBM is - so you can be more informed. ;) :lol:

”tunnel-boring machines (TBMs), or moles, can help create a tunnel. TBMs are enormous, multimillion-dollar pieces of equipment with a circular plate on one end.”

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Someone asked how some could be so Jack-Mormon by claiming to believe Mormonism but acting contrary. I suggested we all are that way to some degree, though some continue that way indefinitely - without a faith crisis. It’s also been a mystery as to why some come to see clearly the cult for what it is - and some don’t. What makes the difference?

I’ll put aside that mystery for now & explore Jack-Mormonism. :)
Jack-Mormon be nimble Jack be quick... Jack-Mormon & Jill... j/k

Many Mansions
As above so below - we experience different consciousnesses. It may be more spiral dynamic (sometimes hitting rock-bottom causes them to bounce way up... & sometimes hitting way up at the top causes pride/unrighteous dominion & causes them to fall) - but for the sake of simplicity, I’m imagining each consciousness as a step...

5) Very good - processed most evil to make weakness strength
4) Good - though still some subconscious evil
3) Good and evil - somewhat conscious & subconscious
2) Evil - hurting others subconsciously - denial taught better
1) Very evil - enjoying hurting others, never taught otherwise

There are different types of jack-Mormon - those who disobey Pharisee-type laws, those who disobey more serious universal morals, & those who just don’t believe the entire package but go along to get along... & a mix. I’d guess many TBMs are 3, & jack-Mormons who disobey morals are 2, & jackmormons who try to do God’s will over the cult are 4. God, who knows our hearts, is the ultimate judge - not man. People - especially those who tend to make their way to high positions of church “authority” & sit and judge others in church courts - tend to not be what they seem. Likewise, often those with less acceptable appearance tend to not be what they are judged by men to be.

This goes along with the faith stages theory.
But again, these are generalizations - life is much more complex.

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Another random heretical thought:

Years ago, I thought I was doing so good in worshipping Jesus for Christmas, Easter etc - giving out pictures of a white hippy-looking man named Latino Jesus. Now, that reminds me of human sacrifice scapegoating & deification of Catholic images of a man who doesn’t look like the Hebrew Yeshua at all & even if it did, we should only worship God. Now, I see the Easter Bunny & bright colors of flowers, eggs and spring - as much more godly & uplifting. It reminds me of HOPE, and LIFE - and wonderfully good things!

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The Airbender wrote: April 1st, 2019, 11:31 pm I have spent some time pondering about whether anyone is actually "truly" evil, or just hurt and separated from their heart and God. I still haven't come to any conclusion. If you truly believed there was no hope for you and felt no joy, love, faith, goodness of any sort, wouldn't you or I do whatever it took to feel something, anything good? Even if that good was a satiation of lust, relief of pain, release of awful feelings, or some kind of escape?

Some people are such good deceivers, liars, con artists, I have known a few who I couldn't believe had any good left in them as their intentions all seemed malicious, terrifyingly evil. Maybe they were seeking to gratify some part of them that felt good in a way, seeking to please a master?

But then I think that I could never do those things no matter how hurt, deceived, blinded I was. I don't know, because I've never had it so bad. I have wanted to hurt others. I have hurt others intentionally, chasing revenge, attention, spite. But nothing so terrible. I couldn't live with myself. But these kind of people don't want to be alive, right? But they can't bring themselves to search out death, either.

Some provocative thoughts you bring up.
Yeah I think there are those who love Satan more than God so to speak. Some people do make conscience decisions to do "evil"

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ransomme wrote: April 5th, 2021, 2:04 pmYeah I think there are those who love Satan more than God so to speak. Some people do make conscience decisions to do "evil"
It may be they figure, they’re hopeless anyway - like an all-or-nothing thinking trap. That seems to apply to people who were once “valiant” in their idea of good. My guess is the majority of evil is justified to make it seem good. And that is probably more damming (holding people back) because it is denial - a step in getting lost to what is true.

Some are disappointed in how church leaders don’t offer any spiritual “meat.” Based on their fruits, money & power/praise seems to be the main motivation. Truth is not valued as much - in fact it’s often avoided, actively denied. And in doing so, they accomplish more of what they want - attracting support from superficial, blind-following types. If they were really interested in spiritual growth - they wouldn’t try to hold people back from it, as they seem to do. But each step away from truth, leads to being more & more lost. Then the blind leads the blind.

Thankfully, some of us are realizing this & it’s inspiring us to worship God, not men. But all things have a cost. “There must needs be opposition in all things.”

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Having grown up lds & known many members who have served missions, I only know of 1 that paid 100% her own way because she was older. There could be more that I am unaware of but it seems that the vast majority of missionaries get a free 2 year etc ride because either their parents or others pay for them. Or they pay like 5% but others pay most.

How many would go if they had to pay every cent?

Why is earning one’s own way but not going on a mission more shamed than going on a mission paid for by others?

These comments were interesting:

”Money should never be a motive in sharing the gospel. You dont want people on missions simply because they would have a free vacation and live off the church.”

“It's the ultimate money making scam, huh. Brainwash people, turn them into zombies and keep charging them even for stuff that they give you. Mormons have to pay for the privilege of tending the gardens at their temples.”

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Thinker wrote: April 6th, 2021, 8:27 pm Having grown up lds & known many members who have served missions, I only know of 1 that paid 100% her own way because she was older. There could be more that I am unaware of but it seems that the vast majority of missionaries get a free 2 year etc ride because either their parents or others pay for them. Or they pay like 5% but others pay most.

How many would go if they had to pay every cent?

Why is earning one’s own way but not going on a mission more shamed than going on a mission paid for by others?

These comments were interesting:

”Money should never be a motive in sharing the gospel. You dont want people on missions simply because they would have a free vacation and live off the church.”

“It's the ultimate money making scam, huh. Brainwash people, turn them into zombies and keep charging them even for stuff that they give you. Mormons have to pay for the privilege of tending the gardens at their temples.”


I paid every bit of my mission.

I bought my suits, shirts, socks and proselyting supplies on my own.

My Mom had died a year before I was discharged from the Army. I joined the church in 1977 at age 21 and had three years remaining in my enlistment.

By the time I got out of the Army, and into the MTC the next day, I had $5,000 left of my inheritance from my Mom.

I used every penny serving down in Argentina in the early 80’s. My mission started at $220 a month and I wrote a letter to my bank once a month to send me $250.

We lived a sort of law of consecration on my mission. Everyone paid the same amount of rent to the mission office. So those living in rural areas paid a surplus, and those in the city, had the exhorbitant apartment rent sudsidized.

Same went for bicycles. Anyone in a bike area, paid $50/ month for a bike. The mission furnished the bikes to those who needed them, and city missionaries just used the $50 for public transport.

Anyway, hyper inflation soon took hold.. soon the mission climbed to $260/ month, then $320/ month. By the time it hit $450 a month I was freaking out. I did the math and I got real mad about how my money wasn’t going to make it to the end.

I wrote a letter to the missionary department lambasting them for not taking into consideration the high inflation rate of some countries. I mean, the application process asked how much we could afford per month for our mission. We knew Bolivia cost $80/ month, and Japan ran $700/ month. Argentina was $180/ month when I filed my paperwork and $220/ month by the time I actually arrived in country.

Anyway, my letter was forwarded to the student ward Bishop from whence I came out in Manhattan, Kansas adjacent to KSU.

I hadn’t been a student, just an Army guy from nearby Ft. Riley interlopping at the Institute where the student ward originated.

The Student Bishop wrote me to say they would do everything they could to keep me on my mission, and how much did I need per month to keep going?

Well, I felt about two inches tall. Totally humiliated that I was having financial problems, and that I mouthed off about it.

Being I was the only member in my family, and my siblings were irreligious, I had no other means of support.

So I did what we were taught to do: I fasted and prayed. Cried to the Lord about my stress and worry about financial matters, and hoping to make it to the end of my mission.

The next week, the second (or third, I can’t remember) President of Argentina devalued the Argentine Peso by two zeros. All of a sudden my American dollars were worth a lot more Pesos, and I was rolling in cash..!!

Wow, talk about deliverance..!! I replied to the student ward Bishop that I didn’t need any financial assistance, and everything was OK.

So I stayed ahead of mission costs four more months, until hyper inflation kicked in. Some Elders deposited their monthly dollar allotment into local Argentine banks in “dollar accounts”, where they got 80% interest rates. It seemed shaky to me, and it was as the govt. froze all dollar accounts a few months later.

Hyper inflation rose to 400% per year. It drove hyper consumerism. Meaning as soon as anyone got paid, you went out and spent it that day, cause tomorrow the prices would go up.

All the grocery stores resorted to “chalk board” price listing. A guy would daily adjust the prices on everything. We’d buy food in huge lots and cram it in the smallish refrigerators in our apartments.

Everything cost more day by day. Except public transportation. Highly regulated, buses, trains and subway fares would increase, but much slower, usually every couple of months they’d jump in price.

The Peso had two more zeros added, so soon 10,000 peso bills fresh off the presses would be like five dollars, then by the end of the month, two dollars.

It got so bad, we ended up having 100,000 peso bills in our wallets. It was crazy, and the local population were worried sick trying to make ends meet.

By the end of my two years, I was using $625 American dollars per month to maintain myself. I figured out I could make it to the end and get home, because for the last year I stayed ahead of inflation by having dollars which I exchanged as needed into Pesos.

In the two years I was down there, the Presidency of Argentina changed five times..!! These were different Generals in the military Junta that had taken over the govt.

Eventually the Argentine Peso was dropped altogether, and we exchanged them for a new currency: the Austral. They dropped off six zeros with the new currency. So all of a sudden we were using $10 Australs to buy what a million pesos used to buy.

It worked for a few weeks, until it couldn’t hold back the pressure and inflation started again.

I returned home at the end, traveling with a companion touring Iguazu Falls & Sao Paolo, Brazil. Along with Lima and Cuzco, Peru.

Our tickets home were on Braniff Airlines, and they went bankrupt while in the air headed to LA from Peru. We had to beg other airlines to honor our tickets to get home on the final leg. My companion to Phoenix, and myself up to Seattle.

By gosh if that $5,000 inheritance from my Mother didn’t get me all they way thru my mission, home, and setup till I got a summer job working till I started school in the fall on my GI Bill...!!


And the poor suffering Argentines..?!? What happened to them..??

The fifth President tried to start something with Chile. Territorial challenges regarding the Beagle Islands. A few harsh words were bandied about and the press took up the cause. Tensions rose.

Then the Pope told both Chile and Argentina to knock it off! You’re both Catholic counties. What are you doing..?!?

This simmered down that dispute. But the Argentine leadership were under the gun with an increasingly disturbed populace.

A month after I got home, Argentina invaded the Faulkland islands. They were desperately trying to gin up a common enemy to unify the country and push the focus outward away from their inept leadership.

My buddies still down on the mission were locked up into their apartments because everyone thought they were CIA agents gathering and sending information to Britain.

After the sinking of the Belgano by the Brits, Argentines turned roughly against the US too.

By April of that year, my buddies had been holed up in their apartments for three or four months, members bringing them groceries. Like being under house arrest.

In General Conference, Pres. Kimball announced missionary service would be reduced to 18 months effective immediately and most of my fellow missionaries came home in droves from Argentina.

Several conferences after that, the single set monthly missionary cost was announced. Everyone pays $350/ month, no matter where you serve.

Argentina lost the war, and the military Junta was kicked out, and elections held.

It took another decade to pull some semblance of normalcy back into Argentine society.

It was quite a time...
Glad I went.. ;-)

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