Random thoughts...

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BruceRGilbert
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And one more thing . . . about being damned if we don't get it.
1 Corinthians 11:
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
It grieves me what He had to endure.

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Thinker wrote: April 20th, 2019, 5:56 pm I think maybe getting deeper into applying the at-one-ment is realizing how we’re all similar and connected. This sounds easy but often it isn’t. “In each of us is a bit of all of us.” There was this hypothetical story of a man after dying going to heaven or the spirit world only to be told he’d now be going as a different person & how he had been or would be every single person on this earth. When you consider how after death - each of us goes back to the God of our origin - you can see some truth in that story. Also, you can see truth of it when realizing we are often God’s hands in answering (or failing to answer) one another’s prayers.
The interesting thing about "sharing pearls" is in experiencing the "hurt" when they are not recognized as such. The "hurt" resides in the "unfulfilled" hope of making a difference for someone. Because of "maturity," the realization comes that "sharing" is "caring" and that pearls remain pearls regardless of their perception/reception. Nothing is lost in the sharing. The "potential" far outweighs the "risk." I share this for the benefit of others who have shared precious things that have fallen on "supposed" deaf ears. We record everything we experience and TRUTH as a seed has a tendency to sprout and "re-surface" with a little "spiritual / Spiritual" nurturing. (Such is its nature.)

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Bruce,
Thanks for your kindness. I sense you have a good heart.

We’ve found common ground and I’m grateful, but we may have to agree to disagree on some things. Nobody “discerns fully the wisdom of God” because that would mean they are God - or pretending to be all-knowing etc. Each of us learns line upon line. And each of us has a very uniquely personal relationship with God. I cannot judge that of you nor can you judge that of me.

It takes extra faith to branch out - to take the less traveled road. When everyone around you is believing the same thing, it’s almost effortless to believe it too - until you see more. Then it’s impossible to unsee what you’ve seen. But as a friend said, “When I come to a new truth, it can feel like a wall - but every time if I keep looking, I find a door to more.” The thing is though, it’s so tailored to each of us. Beyond a certain point, dogma doesn’t do much - in fact, as mentioned, it can even hold you back.

Still, I believe everyone is a gift and offers valuable lessons. And this life is not about which brand of dogma is better than which. It’s about the quality of our love.

You mentioned Christ being perfect. Lately I’ve been thinking about how Christ represents all the best - all the ideals. One herd mentality I still struggle with is the tendency to base a person’s value on their material wealth, as so many societies do. Logically, I know that “God is no respector of persons.” God looks on our hearts - not appearances, & loves us unconditionally. Yet, when I’ve gone to (e.g) ritzy parts of So. Ca, I can see how I could get sucked in to trying to impress people - or feeling shame if I didn’t. I could have married for money as some have, or I could’ve focused more on a career - but that wasn’t my priority, though some say it should be. Sometimes, even among members (family & friends), I feel shame for not valuing nicer cars or bigger houses, or prestigious connections, as they do. But how would Christ see that? He was homeless, dirt poor, politically incorrect, hated, called names like child without a father (worse disgrace back then), and yet, he valued himself and others as God did - not based on wealth or prestige - rather, based on their hearts. God’s monetary system is love - not how much others love you - but how well you love God (highest GOoD/truth), and others as well as yourself.

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Thinker wrote: April 22nd, 2019, 7:53 pm We’ve found common ground and I’m grateful, but we may have to agree to disagree on some things. Nobody “discerns fully the wisdom of God” because that would mean they are God - or pretending to be all-knowing etc. Each of us learns line upon line. And each of us has a very uniquely personal relationship with God. I cannot judge that of you nor can you judge that of me.
BruceRGilbert wrote: April 20th, 2019, 9:07 pm Oh, Thinker, how I wish that you could discern "fully" the wisdom of God . . . I believe that you are approaching it and I pray that in some small way, I might be of assistance in helping your understanding grow . . . in this thing.
Did we speak past each other?

I was referencing a certain aspect and not everything.

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BruceRGilbert wrote: April 23rd, 2019, 7:27 am
Thinker wrote: April 22nd, 2019, 7:53 pm We’ve found common ground and I’m grateful, but we may have to agree to disagree on some things. Nobody “discerns fully the wisdom of God” because that would mean they are God - or pretending to be all-knowing etc. Each of us learns line upon line. And each of us has a very uniquely personal relationship with God. I cannot judge that of you nor can you judge that of me.
BruceRGilbert wrote: April 20th, 2019, 9:07 pm Oh, Thinker, how I wish that you could discern "fully" the wisdom of God . . . I believe that you are approaching it and I pray that in some small way, I might be of assistance in helping your understanding grow . . . in this thing.
Did we speak past each other?

I was referencing a certain aspect and not everything.
Maybe.
Can God’s wisdom be separated - compartmentalized?

Since everything is literally and meaningfully connected (air molecules etc) - once you start exploring deeply the highest GOoD of a particular thing, you’ll be presented with infinite branches. Then the question may be, is it the highest GOoD to explore some of those branches (you can’t explore them all - at least not in 1 life)... or is it best to stick with the one focus - or both?

The highest GOoD (or God’s wisdom) that I see most worthy of exploring is God’s love - evidence of it for me & others, and my & other’s love for God (highest GOoD). I choose this focus because it seems that it’s at the heart of what most people really want - to feel loved. Yet I also realize love is more than feeling-based.

It’s ok and understandable that no 2 people see everything the same way. That way we can learn to see more perspectives - and maybe God is all.

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Thinker wrote: April 24th, 2019, 12:07 pm Can God’s wisdom be separated - compartmentalized?

Since everything is literally and meaningfully connected (air molecules etc) - once you start exploring deeply the highest GOoD of a particular thing, you’ll be presented with infinite branches. Then the question may be, is it the highest GOoD to explore some of those branches (you can’t explore them all - at least not in 1 life)... or is it best to stick with the one focus - or both?

The highest GOoD (or God’s wisdom) that I see most worthy of exploring is God’s love - evidence of it for me & others, and my & other’s love for God (highest GOoD). I choose this focus because it seems that it’s at the heart of what most people really want - to feel loved. Yet I also realize love is more than feeling-based.

It’s ok and understandable that no 2 people see everything the same way. That way we can learn to see more perspectives - and maybe God is all.
It isn't "all or nothing." Man cannot comprehend what God can and part of the line upon line and precept upon precept requires a quantum "step-wise" ratcheting into knowledge via comprehension, intelligence via obedience/application and wisdom via mentoring/sharing/ministering.

I find it interesting, in view of some of your other postings, Thinker, expounding upon the dichotomy of black and white; this or that thinking and its problems, - that you present one in the last sentence of that first paragraph quoted. It seems that within you, there is a struggle being waged in its negotiation. That need not exist, but only the Faith that God will present His wisdom to you in your own "tailored to fit" fashion; whereby, His "personal plan of growth and development for you" will be realized. With such trust, He will permit you to explore those branches as He deems of most worth to you, to maximize your growth in realizing the greatest potential. He knows what you or I lack, whereas we, individually may not. So, I would recommend focusing on whatever God gives you to . . . and it may be of many facets.

Now, the third paragraph - you present, here, the crux of what I had attempted to share. "The highest GOoD (or God's wisdom" - [and I would suppose that this insert is for my benefit; fitting my vernacular,]) "that I see most worthy of exploring is God's love." Yes, certainly, and the thing that I presented and wished to focus on was how that LOVE placed His Only Begotten Son in the Flesh in harms way.

This is the Good News:

Image

Now whether that Gospel is one of "human sacrifice" and "scapegoating" would depend on how the Gift is received. I attempted, feebly, to elaborate on how it ought to be received from my perspective. He was the "Life Guard" who was dispatched to save us from drowning and I would suppose that we have the choice to "pull Him under" by attempting to save ourselves at His expense or we can cooperate and allow Him to do rescue us according to His wisdom and approach.

I'm grateful that you choose the "love" approach . . . it is the only one that is going to endure. Please recognize; however, that God did have a Son, whom He sent here.
John 3:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Being that "LIGHT," means that He gave an example to follow - which thing I elaborated in previous postings. His was a LIFE and a LIGHT that could be comprehended and recognized. Do you, Thinker, not recognize Him for who He was?

And finally:
It’s ok and understandable that no 2 people see everything the same way. That way we can learn to see more perspectives - and maybe God is all.
God is all, when we become ONE with Him . . . on His terms and not ours. Why His terms? Because His is the proper perspective based upon the maturity of His wisdom . . . not ours.

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Re: Random thoughts...

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BruceRGilbert wrote: April 25th, 2019, 5:50 amI find it interesting, in view of some of your other postings, Thinker, expounding upon the dichotomy of black and white; this or that thinking and its problems, - that you present one in the last sentence of that first paragraph quoted.
Bruce,
It seems you are criticizing me for doing what I didn’t do. You accused me of black-or-white thinking, when yes I offered 2 possibilities but also suggested it could be some of both (which is not black-or-white thinking).

I wrote:
“Then the question may be, is it the highest GOoD to explore some of those branches (you can’t explore them all - at least not in 1 life)... or is it best to stick with the one focus - or both?”

I think this is a good time to agree to disagree.
Thanks for the discussion.

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Thinker wrote: April 25th, 2019, 4:18 pm Bruce,
It seems you are criticizing me for doing what I didn’t do. You accused me of black-or-white thinking, when yes I offered 2 possibilities but also suggested it could be some of both (which is not black-or-white thinking).
Ah, not so fast, Thinker. You seem quick to "uncouple" due to this challenge; however, there is one more which hangs in the balance; going unanswered. Do you believe that Jeshua - in English, Jesus, was the literal Son of God? Do you accept Him as your Savior? This is the "substantial" and possibly the "avoided" issue that is really at the crux of this discussion. Focusing on the questioning of your "congruency" in principle appears to only have provided a convenient "disconnect" to allow you to shift the attention.

Thinker, forgive me, but I am getting a glimpse into your psyche. I am seeking to further understand you. I definitely view a sensitivity on your part with respect to "questioning." It would seem that you avoid such challenges. I am not criticizing you. Why, oh why do you interpret this as criticism and accusation?
Thinker wrote: April 25th, 2019, 4:18 pm I think this is a good time to agree to disagree.
Thanks for the discussion.


This last quote seems kinda dismissive. You aren't the strong, avoiding, silent type, are you? ;) Too funny! Don't you hesitate for one moment to "engage." I can assure you that I do not nor would I criticize you. I can assure you that I will question you; however, that does not equate to "accusation." It is an invitation for you to push back . . . steadily and assuredly with confidence, rather than doubt.

I have actually enjoyed our exchange and value/cherish the interaction. Me thinks that there are some "internal" issues at work, here; possibly an encroachment from order into chaos. (Thank you, Jordan Peterson!) Only you are capable of understanding the underlying button and nuance.

If you are uncomfortable, I will disengage - that would entirely be up to you.

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Bruce,
I pointed out by quoting both of us, how you were wrongfully accusing me & instead of saying, “Oh, sorry about that” you’re continuing to shift the blame to me, pretending you see into my soul to criticize it, meanwhile ignoring your own mistake. Even if minor, it reveals that I can’t trust you to be honest, take your own responsibility and not try to blame me. You could post the most profound statements and fancy visuals - but if you show a lack of integrity in dealing with people, it’s all for naught.

We’re all works in progress. I know I struggle & make mistakes but sometimes I don’t and I just speak truth that some don’t like, as it seems has happened with you. Bummer. I thought more of you. You never really know how someone is until they’re tested. E.g: Some people on this forum who I disagree with on some major issues, I trust as far as their good intention and integrity - more than others who I agree with more.

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Thinker wrote: April 27th, 2019, 11:13 am Bruce,
I pointed out by quoting both of us, how you were wrongfully accusing me & instead of saying, “Oh, sorry about that” you’re continuing to shift the blame to me, pretending you see into my soul to criticize it, meanwhile ignoring your own mistake. Even if minor, it reveals that I can’t trust you to be honest, take your own responsibility and not try to blame me. You could post the most profound statements and fancy visuals - but if you show a lack of integrity in dealing with people, it’s all for naught.

We’re all works in progress. I know I struggle & make mistakes but sometimes I don’t and I just speak truth that some don’t like, as it seems has happened with you. Bummer. I thought more of you. You never really know how someone is until they’re tested. E.g: Some people on this forum who I disagree with on some major issues, I trust as far as their good intention and integrity - more than others who I agree with more.
Thinker - what if I told you the truth and the reason that I did and do is because I love you? Would that make a difference? I have been wrong and mistaken about many things, as well, Thinker and I take no pride in "being right" nor do I take shame in being "wrong." We are here to learn about ourselves and to help others along the way. If I am guilty, the reason that it is so is because I care. It hasn't been my intent to offend you and for this, I am very sorry. I would hope that you would ponder about what I said and the way that I said it; that you would make the realization that there is no accusation. I did; however, predict that it would be a stumbling block. It has afforded me a peak at the "you" behind the self affixed "Thinker" label. I will not take this opportunity to reveal to you what I have discerned about you because it is in public forum. I wish that you could see through my lens, because you could really use a candid, loving, real conversation with someone on your level. You are thirsting for things that you have not been able to obtain. I am concerned because of the void that remains unfulfilled.

I will share a couple of poems that I have authored as a "peace offering" and I shall conclude my posting on your thread in accordance to my word and out of a profound respect for having rubbed shoulders with you:
Awakening

Ere from the darkest depths, an awareness ascend,
Dawning brighter light; an intelligence to blend.
Gaining experience by that which is thought . . .
feeling things that upon me are wrought.
In my awakening, am I alone?
"Why is it I?," an inward groan.

Consciousness strains to gain its control
The stupor of not has extracted a toll.
Choices to make, to expedite my cause . . .
Definitions lacking give rise to my pause.
Who, what am I, that I can arise?
What is of value that I can prize?
Some purpose to garnish in me being here?
Perplexed at the challenge may cause me to jeer.

To create and to build?, a question arose . . .
Perchance destroy and ruin - ah, and depose?
I know I decide what role I shall play . . .
But what shall my Creator have to say?

To build up or tear down?, the question remains.
One can fulfill and the other leaves stains.
Get a Life

A life without meaning is a life of nothing.
By having no purpose, there's nothing to gain.
When "nothing" is gained as life's only purpose,
life then becomes something in vain.

An "after such a life" is needed to change ones direction;
to consider the emptiness, privation and pain.
Emptiness' shadow is but imperfection;
pointing to purpose in higher plain.
Existence is a gift that comes from above.
Its purpose to learn and share with great love.
We all deserve something greater than nothing;
Peace everlasting - the sign of the Dove.

Having without meaning is the same as not having.
When Caterpillars Become Butterflies . . .

To the heart not synchronized with mine,
A pretense that life's quest is fine . . . .
Life's hopes and dreams unfulfilled
Because your presence they once thrilled.

Upon your face no more to gaze,
The absence of a resonant praise!
Dare I venture ere to feel
A love so vivid and surreal?

Dare I pierce the vanquished veil,
Imagining quest's sightless braille?
Shadows beckon the greater sin -
Lost in thoughts of what might have been.

If your journey has created you bliss,
I can find serenity and joy in this.
My sacrifice will not be in vain,
If unlike me, you have no pain.

To cherish engenders a love, "real,"
Whose presence motivates my appeal.
Inadequate am I, words to express -
To you, I pray always the Lord to bless.

Your happiness and fulfillment will be mine.
Image
Inasmuch as wonderful qualities are seen and experienced in others . . . all good comes from God and anyone who has seen the least of these has been able to recognize characteristics of God in a facet.
You, Thinker, have some wonderful qualities . . . one that I am very much aware of is your fierce loyalty - once it has been garnished. God bless you and adieu.

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More random thoughts...

Hollywood can seem ugly. Not only does everything need massive make-up, editing, cinematography, etc., the Hollywood part of LA is yellow and brown - just not very attractive - even in the less urban parts. Then again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. How often we buy into appearances rather than authenticity. That is not always so bad - what is authentic anyway? Every thought we have is subjective and thus we need to take the reins in our thinking - discipline it as we do our physical bodies. Yet, also realize how often there is much more than what meets the eye.

God is defined in countless ways, +800 just in the bible. At the top of the list, I’d put, Masculinity (Heavenly Father), Femininity (Heavenly Mother) - yin/yang, LOVE & Intelligent Design. Part of all of that is like GOoD parents who have in place rules they won’t force you to keep, but will not prevent you from precious opportunities to learn from your mistakes. E.g.: ebb and flow of ocean waves is a rule that’s brought through Intelligent design. You stand there when a huge wave comes at you and if you do nothing, you will be slapped in the face with it - as if to say, “You knew I’d be coming again - what do you expect?” Yet, if you prepare for the wave - you can jump or ride it and go with the flow so that your efforts are magnified.

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This is a vent about bullied who become bullies and should know better.
Kids that are naive and inexperienced, I can understand - eventually they grow out of it & learn better. But how in this big wide world can full-grown adults do that?

How can people who, after decades of being subject to mind control and herd mentality, who then wake up to see it for what it is, then turn around and with their new group begin that dysfunctional BS all over again? I’m referring mostly to people trading one dogmatic herd mentality for another sexual disorder herd mentality. They hypocritically call “hateful homophobic bigot” to anyone who dares disagree with transgender delusion etc. How can anyone in good conscience go back to herd mentality once they’ve seen it? How can anyone go back to lies that defy undeniable facts - just because “everyone who’s cool believes it”? Unless they’re cowardly - they care so much what other think and disregard their own sense of integrity.

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Re: Random thoughts...

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Thinker wrote: July 3rd, 2019, 5:37 pm You stand there when a huge wave comes at you and if you do nothing, you will be slapped in the face with it - as if to say, “You knew I’d be coming again - what do you expect?” Yet, if you prepare for the wave - you can jump or ride it and go with the flow so that your efforts are magnified.
So perfectly put, in that I feel this perfectly describes my recent and current circumstances which have taught me this lesson the hard way. I am not greater than the seasons, and I only reap pain for myself & those closest to me when I try to do Summer’s work during the Winter.

A year ago my mother warned me that the Lord would humble me and she was right.

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Re: Random thoughts...

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Thinker wrote: July 14th, 2019, 5:30 pmHow can people who, after decades of being subject to mind control and herd mentality, who then wake up to see it for what it is, then turn around and with their new group begin that dysfunctional BS all over again? I’m referring mostly to people trading one dogmatic herd mentality for another sexual disorder herd mentality. They hypocritically call “hateful homophobic bigot” to anyone who dares disagree with transgender delusion etc. How can anyone in good conscience go back to herd mentality once they’ve seen it? How can anyone go back to lies that defy undeniable facts - just because “everyone who’s cool believes it”? Unless they’re cowardly - they care so much what other think and disregard their own sense of integrity.
Ultimately it boils down to one’s priorities. Those who value Truth above all will eventually be forced into a position where they need to make sacrifices, of things that are real and that they actually care about. Things like social standing and status, or money or fame or power. You talk about herd mentality, well running with the herd is easily the safest course of action. If you deviate from the direction of the mob, your exposure to danger increases, in direct proportion to the degree which you veer contrary.

So is the truth worth sacrificing for? Is it something we value to the extent that we are willing to potentially compromise ourselves somehow, whether that be psychologically, physically, socially, or above all spiritually?

Or perhaps we can have our cake and eat it too? Perhaps we can prioritise Truth while also appeasing the mentality of the mob? Perhaps Truth is malleable, something we can mould and shape according to our needs and desires? Perhaps in reality, Truth is whatever benefits us most and serves our intentions the easiest? Perhaps its best defined as whatever keeps us from being stampeded by the herd?

I think this Jordan Peterson quote would answer those questions just fine:
You can’t twist the fabric of reality without having it snap back. Because it doesn’t work that way. Because what are you going to do, twist the fabric of reality? I don’t think so. Because it’s bigger than you. Because I think that one of the things that tempts people is that ‘I can get away with it’. Yea, try. You’ll see how well that works. It’s like, you get away with nothing. And that is the beginning of wisdom.
Sometimes the herd runs on paths leading to certain destruction, as we see with all these anti-truth ideologies and agendas starting up and taking root in our society, their mingling with objective reality growing hazier and less distinct. The more the moral devolution of our culture progresses, and the attendant fruits thereof harvested - the more dangerous it will become to be centered in the unchanging and absolute Truth established by God as the measuring stick and anchor of Reality.

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abijah wrote: July 14th, 2019, 6:12 pm
Thinker wrote: July 14th, 2019, 5:30 pmHow can people who, after decades of being subject to mind control and herd mentality, who then wake up to see it for what it is, then turn around and with their new group begin that dysfunctional BS all over again? I’m referring mostly to people trading one dogmatic herd mentality for another sexual disorder herd mentality. They hypocritically call “hateful homophobic bigot” to anyone who dares disagree with transgender delusion etc. How can anyone in good conscience go back to herd mentality once they’ve seen it? How can anyone go back to lies that defy undeniable facts - just because “everyone who’s cool believes it”? Unless they’re cowardly - they care so much what other think and disregard their own sense of integrity.
Ultimately it boils down to one’s priorities. Those who value Truth above all will eventually be forced into a position where they need to make sacrifices, of things that are real and that they actually care about. Things like social standing and status, or money or fame or power. You talk about herd mentality, well running with the herd is easily the safest course of action. If you deviate from the direction of the mob, your exposure to danger increases, in direct proportion to the degree which you veer contrary.

So is the truth worth sacrificing for? Is it something we value to the extent that we are willing to potentially compromise ourselves somehow, whether that be psychologically, physically, socially, or above all spiritually?

Or perhaps we can have our cake and eat it too? Perhaps we can prioritise Truth while also appeasing the mentality of the mob? Perhaps Truth is malleable, something we can mould and shape according to our needs and desires? Perhaps in reality, Truth is whatever benefits us most and serves our intentions the easiest? Perhaps its best defined as whatever keeps us from being stampeded by the herd?

I think this Jordan Peterson quote would answer those questions just fine:
You can’t twist the fabric of reality without having it snap back. Because it doesn’t work that way. Because what are you going to do, twist the fabric of reality? I don’t think so. Because it’s bigger than you. Because I think that one of the things that tempts people is that ‘I can get away with it’. Yea, try. You’ll see how well that works. It’s like, you get away with nothing. And that is the beginning of wisdom.
Sometimes the herd runs on paths leading to certain destruction, as we see with all these anti-truth ideologies and agendas starting up and taking root in our society, their mingling with objective reality growing hazier and less distinct. The more the moral devolution of our culture progresses, and the attendant fruits thereof harvested - the more dangerous it will become to be centered in the unchanging and absolute Truth established by God as the measuring stick and anchor of Reality.
Wow, Abijah, you have inspired me - and encouraged me. Thank you.
I watched a clip of JP where he said that and he referred to evil as trying to twist reality. I do think that’s probably at the root - and then it’s expressed as S Peck wrote - evil is persistently avoiding responsibility and trying to make another pay instead.

SACRIFICE. Sometimes it sneaks up on you - or at least on me it has. I have chosen truth - but the consequence and sacrifice from that is I don’t have as much social support as I’d like. That has been very painful. But there’s always a silver lining - and it is that I’m finding a stronger foundation of faith in God - caring more what God thinks of me than what others do... and developing more self-awareness. The only real balm for emotional pain is facing it head on and exploring to put it on the table & find ways to see it, myself and others through the eyes of God. God has a way of truly transforming us!

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Thinker
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Mob mentality - which inflicts most (about 70% of) people - is like an illness. Some may say they act as if they’re possessed by evil spirits - and there might be truth from that angle too. But it’s so deceptive because when the entire mob is thinking insanely, sanity LOOKS insane. Lol. Laugh or cry - or both. In the thick of being called names or other forms of bullying - it hurts and feels very personal. But it’s important to keep in mind that we all have been under the mob mentality spell at one time or another... like when it’s joining in hitting ourselves because everyone else is (clapping). ;)

Still, it can be a real blow to hope in humanity to realize how a person could turn on you... if you said something their mob considered wrong. And I mean really turn on you. I’ve gotten anonymous threats by homosexual fanatics. My own spouse has spoken bad about me to many people & threatened divorce - just because I don’t worship leader$ & don’t pay them so thus I’m not “temple-worthy.” Never mind that he’s cheated on me twice. And because this lds cult is a false god to many, it comes before relationships - even marriage.

The good news is about 30% of people have enough integrity to not go along with mob mentality when it is immoral. They are out there - even if in the more quiet minority.

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What do these Pink Floyd lyrics mean?
  • “So, so you think you can tell
    Heaven from Hell
    Blue sky from pain
    Can you tell a green field
    From a cold steel rail?

    A smile from a veil?
    Do you think you can tell?

    Hot air for a cool breeze?
    Cold comfort for change?
    And did you exchange
    A walk on part in the war
    For a lead role in a cage?

    Did they get you to trade
    Your heroes for ghosts?
    Hot ashes for trees?
    Hot air for a cool breeze?
    Cold comfort for change?
    And did you exchange
    A walk on part in the war
    For a lead role in a cage?

    How I wish, how I wish you were here
    We're just two lost souls
    Swimming in a fish bowl
    Year after year
    Running over the same old ground
    What have we found
    The same old fears
    Wish you were here”
Maybe... it refers to people who have numbed themselves - unable to think or feel straight. And who have chosen the path of comfort and ego-stroking, over discomfort humility. They prefer to surround themselves with people struggling more than they are, so they feel better about themselves - but it holds them back. Same old fears keep surfacing because they keep being stuffed down.

Another possibility... Habit of apathy and lack of self-affirmation cause an inability to realize what they really want. Seeking praise of people over faith-based praise of God. Avoiding situations that call forth unrealistic fears and old wounds that need healing - cause fears to keep popping up.

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Image

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Yesterday, a brother at church tried to stop me from taking my child at the appointed time my child had asked me to. He wanted my child to wait for another unplanned thing, along with others. When I asserted myself, he consented but it bothered me that he felt he had a right above me as my child’s legal parent. This happened before in another ward when a bishop signed my child up for an overnight camp without asking me. So, it’s not personal but more a bad habit (even legally wrong habit) in the church.

My initial reaction was kind but assertive and then later angry. Anger does serve a purpose in righting wrongs, but beyond that, anger doesn't hurt anyone but oneself. I was thinking that this type of thing may happen again and I need to think of a more compassionate view that helps me be more patient, while asserting what is right.

Children I know with Down’s syndrome tend to sometimes say or do things that might not be polite etc, yet it’s easy to forgive them. People who have been subject to cult mentality show 3 major mental disabilities:
1) Blind obedience to leaders
2) Information control (only “church approved” info)
3) Overgiving in money, time, resources and/or power over self/family

For most of my life, I suffered from those mental disabilities, so remembering that can also help me be more patiently compassionate, while maintaining assertive boundaries. And “do what is right, let the consequence follow.”

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When the mindset that leaders own you, that they have the right to control even your most intimate thoughts, one loses the natural boundaries that exist that would normally cause the one person to say, "That's their right as a parent/person," and the other to say, "That's my right as a parent/person."

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Silver Pie wrote: February 24th, 2020, 6:39 pm When the mindset that leaders own you, that they have the right to control even your most intimate thoughts, one loses the natural boundaries that exist that would normally cause the one person to say, "That's their right as a parent/person," and the other to say, "That's my right as a parent/person."
Thanks, SilverPie. That’s true.
It was in front of a bunch of people and they looked at me weird and my child was embarrassed and went along with the man but finally came with me. This same man lacks judgement because several years ago, he and a couple others leaders made some very bad decisions and someone (could have been my child) passed out unconscious, needed CPR & almost died on a camp. It was due to a really stupid mistake on the leaders’ part. He also was singling out another one of my kids, shaming him in front of the class, for not attending seminary.

When I think of how he’s been sometimes I get so angry but I have to remember, it IS like a mental disability he has - as I had before too. “Forgive them for they know not what they do.”

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Thinker wrote: February 26th, 2020, 9:22 am“Forgive them for they know not what they do.”
That's the needed mantra, all right. The blind who cannot see. Can you blame them for falling into the ditch (and pulling other blind people in with them)? If the eyes of all of us were open to how we are controlling or unkind, the world would be more peaceful because, I think very few would willingly continue to be as heartless, cruel, and/or uncaring as we are wont to be now.

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Silver Pie wrote: February 27th, 2020, 3:59 pm
Thinker wrote: February 26th, 2020, 9:22 am“Forgive them for they know not what they do.”
That's the needed mantra, all right. The blind who cannot see. Can you blame them for falling into the ditch (and pulling other blind people in with them)? If the eyes of all of us were open to how we are controlling or unkind, the world would be more peaceful because, I think very few would willingly continue to be as heartless, cruel, and/or uncaring as we are wont to be now.
My sister once told me I was cruel because I didn’t go along with her denial. I can be blunt - but I try to speak truth as nicely as possible. I believe that people need to know and face truth to avoid harming themselves &/or others. I think that’s partly why I’ve been hated by my BPD mom - I have pointed out what everyone was in denial about. My dad said he remembered me doing that - standing up to her when nobody else would - even when I was about 2.

You may not have meant this but claims of others being cruel, heartless, uncaring etc kind of reminds me of gaslighting homosexual supporters use to deflect their own bad choices and harmful consequences. Do you have an adult child with homosexual preferences? I thought you said so on another forum. I have had quite a few friends, and some extended family with homosexual preferences. Each of them were like all my grandma’s therapy homosexual patients - they had sexual abuse - sometimes their parents had no idea.

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