LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **March 30th, 2019, 3:16 pm**

This happened a year ago, it is not fresh news, however it is telling and they did get away with this. "During the shootout, two bullets also hit a Provo man and a passing car. Utah County Sheriff Jim Tracy confirmed Wednesday that those shots were fired by law enforcement officers. One bullet shattered the rear window of a pickup truck, but missed the four children and parents inside, Tracy said. Another bullet hit the shoulder of a man who had stopped on the side of the freeway to put gas in his tank."https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i87aviBPVI4

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 9:31 am**

If they can have automatic weapons then we should have automatic weapons. The government should never have weapons that "we the people" can't have.

Posted: **April 2nd, 2019, 9:08 am**

The government shouldn't be able to own, use, take, or do anything that we the people can't. And yet, look at 'em.

Posted: **April 13th, 2019, 9:19 am**

You can own any firearm.you want. Fully auto? Yep. Short barreled rifle? Yep. Sawed off shotgun? Yeppers. Fully auto CZ75? Again, yup. Just pay the cost and pass the background check and your free to go.

Posted: **April 13th, 2019, 9:50 am**

Aprhys wrote: ↑April 13th, 2019, 9:19 am You can own any firearm.you want. Fully auto? Yep. Short barreled rifle? Yep. Sawed off shotgun? Yeppers. Fully auto CZ75? Again, yup. Just pay the cost and pass the background check and your free to go.

That's kind of like saying "anybody can vote, just pay the poll tax or pass this test and you're good to go." Technically, you're right, but the bazillion unconstitutional laws the govt has passed to add restrictions, create legal pitfalls, or just outright bans in some states, make your statement kind of silly, to be honest.

Posted: **April 13th, 2019, 10:16 am**

mes5464 wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 9:31 am If they can have automatic weapons then we should have automatic weapons. The government should never have weapons that "we the people" can't have.

Problem with this is that the government has nuclear weapons and it has guns capable of shooting a projectile the size of a small car for many miles and it has missiles that can carry large conventional loads and it has guns that can shoot high volumes of rounds in various sizes per second at velocities that are almost unbelievable. We definitely cannot have every type of weapon the government has, it is far too deadly to allow that, but small arm automatic weapons, why not, they are only illegal because of what mobsters did long ago and in reality are much more difficult to be accurate with than semi-automatics or revolvers. I would rather have a normal person with an automatic attack me, if I was armed, than someone who was well-trained attacking me with a large caliber wheel gun. IMO the whole premise for laws against these types of firearms, that only really affect the law-abiding public, is so flawed it should have been enough to start a civil war long ago, but the law-abiding public does not act that way, do they? The whole premise is wrong.

Posted: **April 13th, 2019, 11:30 am**

It looked like it was a full auto MP5. I would rather have a semi auto AR15.

Posted: **April 13th, 2019, 12:12 pm**

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑April 13th, 2019, 10:16 am
mes5464 wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 9:31 am If they can have automatic weapons then we should have automatic weapons. The government should never have weapons that "we the people" can't have.
Problem with this is that the government has nuclear weapons and it has guns capable of shooting a projectile the size of a small car for many miles and it has missiles that can carry large conventional loads and it has guns that can shoot high volumes of rounds in various sizes per second at velocities that are almost unbelievable. We definitely cannot have every type of weapon the government has, it is far too deadly to allow that, but small arm automatic weapons, why not, they are only illegal because of what mobsters did long ago and in reality are much more difficult to be accurate with than semi-automatics or revolvers. I would rather have a normal person with an automatic attack me, if I was armed, than someone who was well-trained attacking me with a large caliber wheel gun. IMO the whole premise for laws against these types of firearms, that only really affect the law-abiding public, is so flawed it should have been enough to start a civil war long ago, but the law-abiding public does not act that way, do they? The whole premise is wrong.

I disagree.

Posted: **April 13th, 2019, 1:26 pm**

mes5464 wrote: ↑April 13th, 2019, 12:12 pm
Craig Johnson wrote: ↑April 13th, 2019, 10:16 am
mes5464 wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 9:31 am If they can have automatic weapons then we should have automatic weapons. The government should never have weapons that "we the people" can't have.
Problem with this is that the government has nuclear weapons and it has guns capable of shooting a projectile the size of a small car for many miles and it has missiles that can carry large conventional loads and it has guns that can shoot high volumes of rounds in various sizes per second at velocities that are almost unbelievable. We definitely cannot have every type of weapon the government has, it is far too deadly to allow that, but small arm automatic weapons, why not, they are only illegal because of what mobsters did long ago and in reality are much more difficult to be accurate with than semi-automatics or revolvers. I would rather have a normal person with an automatic attack me, if I was armed, than someone who was well-trained attacking me with a large caliber wheel gun. IMO the whole premise for laws against these types of firearms, that only really affect the law-abiding public, is so flawed it should have been enough to start a civil war long ago, but the law-abiding public does not act that way, do they? The whole premise is wrong.
I disagree.

Okay, that's fine, but I will not vote for your right to own a nuke.

Posted: **April 13th, 2019, 11:14 pm**

All weapons should be OK, logically. Here's one practical issue with a nuke - If you had one, your neighbors in the surrounding 10 mile radius could reasonably feel you were pointing a weapon at them. They could attack you in self-defense or try and have you arrested for threatening their lives without a sure knowledge that you didn't have your finger on the button. If laws prohibiting all types of weapons were removed, no average joes would be going out and obtaining nukes and pose this type of potential threat to their communities without these types of reactions which would act as a normalizing factor. Few would go out and get ICBMs for the same reason with the entire world suddenly feeling you may be pointing a weapon directly at them.

Posted: **April 14th, 2019, 6:39 am**

mes5464 wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 9:31 am If they can have automatic weapons then we should have automatic weapons. The government should never have weapons that "we the people" can't have.

The problems is not legal weapons, but illegal weapons. The bad guys (no, not the government in this case) can get full auto firepower, and the law enforcement people have to be able to keep up in an active shooter situation.
To limit LEO's to legal firearms is to set them up to fail, and they are real people with real families too.

Posted: **April 14th, 2019, 7:25 am**

mes5464 wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 9:31 am If they can have automatic weapons then we should have automatic weapons. The government should never have weapons that "we the people" can't have.

Sign me up for

so

me Agent

Posted: **April 14th, 2019, 7:10 pm**

First off, it isn't an MP5. I used the MP5 in the Army. The forestock isn't slanted. I'm not really sure what it is.

Secondly, does anyone here have law enforcement experience? I've got 13 years experience, so if you don't have any experience, don't be so quick to judge his actions. Personally, I would not have immediately gone to rock and roll, but set the selector switch to semi-auto. When you shoot an MP5 or any submachine gun for that matter, the muzzle will rise from the recoil. When I was shooting it, I was trained to shoot 3-round bursts only since that is all you can somewhat accurately shoot at one time. What I did do was hold it at an angle firing at the lower right side of the target and let the recoil raise the muzzle up toward the left shoulder. Usually, I would hit the target with all my shots. With semi-auto, you can bring the muzzle back onto your target with each shot, which is what the LEO should have done. In the amount of time it took him to burn off a 30-round mag, he could have placed 3-4 aimed rounds into the driver. However, it is a lot more fun to go rock and roll, especially if you've got someone else loading the mags.

As for letting civilians own full auto weapons, I'm all for it. The weapons at the time the Constitution was written were all military grade weapons. I believe that private citizens also owned cannons. If you are to honor the intent of the Second Amendment, then, within reason, all private citizens should be permitted to own military grade weapons. I'd probably draw the line on nukes...maybe.

Posted: **April 15th, 2019, 8:13 am**

Rand wrote: ↑April 14th, 2019, 6:39 am The problems is not legal weapons, but illegal weapons. The bad guys (no, not the government in this case) can get full auto firepower, and the law enforcement people have to be able to keep up in an active shooter situation.
To limit LEO's to legal firearms is to set them up to fail, and they are real people with real families too.

There is no such thing as an illegal weapon.

I don't have a problem with LEO having full auto weapons. I object to their prohibiting the people from also having full auto weapons without special licences and prohibit the carry of them.

Posted: **April 15th, 2019, 12:25 pm**

mes5464 wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 8:13 am
I don't have a problem with LEO having full auto weapons. I object to their prohibiting the people from also having full auto weapons without special licences and prohibit the carry of them.

The LEO's did not make that law, the federal government did.

Posted: **April 15th, 2019, 1:56 pm**

mirkwood wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 12:25 pm
mes5464 wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 8:13 am
I don't have a problem with LEO having full auto weapons. I object to their prohibiting the people from also having full auto weapons without special licences and prohibit the carry of them.
The LEO's did not make that law, the federal government did.

True but they are willingly enforce unconstitutional law.

Posted: **April 15th, 2019, 8:43 pm**

Cops are notoriously bad shots.
I went to Scout camp with a bunch of law enforcement dads.

I threw up a challenge in camp of demonstrating precision shooting (with the scout camp .22 single shot rifles...

).

I put ten rounds thru paper at 25 yards the size of a dime, and not one of the cops would even go up against me. Several just murmured... that “they weren’t very good with a rifle...”

Posted: **April 15th, 2019, 8:53 pm**

From your story it just sounds like you are a very good shot with a .22 at 25 yards. How does that equate to most cops are notoriously bad shots? Most law enforcement firearms training is with a handgun from 25 yards and closer, with the majority of it being at 7 yards. Mostly from the holster with an emphasis on not only accuracy but speed. I think most cops are way above average with a handgun and I know some who are excellent. Drawing, moving, shooting, and reloading is a lot different than shooting a .22 from a bench with no time constraints.

Posted: **April 15th, 2019, 11:02 pm**

JK4Woods wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 8:43 pm Cops are notoriously bad shots.

Have you ever been in a combat situation? I hope not. Studies have shown that no matter your proficiency in shooting, fully 80% of all shots fired in a combat situation are missed. How good of a shot would a person be if they have a criminal shooting at them, or you were dodging a car while shooting when some idiot is trying to run you over, or the target itself is moving? You can train and train and train, and fire tens of thousands of rounds, but the rule is that you will always encounter circumstances in which there are too many unknown variables. In fact, every encounter by a LEO always without exception has unknown variables. It is those unknown variables that create the missed shots fired by the police.

I'm not saying this about you, but in today's society, it is fashionable and politically correct to bash and judge the police and be a proficient armchair quarterback with the benefit of a calm, quiet home, a Coke in hand, a TV dinner on a tray and make judgments. These so-called "civilian review boards" are a huge joke. None of the members of the review board have ever been through an academy or been on patrol with their life on the line. There is constant stress and being eternally vigilant and on the look-out for someone who would love nothing more than to kill a LEO. You simply cannot believe what a LEO goes through. Try having a contract on your life. I did, for 3 or 4 weeks. My head was a swivel on my shoulders and anyone who approached me was suspect. I seriously considered sending my wife and son to my parent's home. I was lucky in that the perps were caught. Try fighting hand to hand for your life. I have, in the wildest, knock-down, drag-out fight I've ever been in with a guy trying to get to his knife and stick me. My vest would not have stopped that knife. Or how about the suicide scene where the guy puts a shotgun under his chin and blows what little brains he had all over the ceiling because he was mad at his ex-wife and decided to "fix her." Or responding to a woman down, CPR in progress and half-way there, you are notified by dispatch that you are the highest medical authority because you have a defibrillator in your car and the paramedics are on an extended rescue at a traffic collision. When you get there, you see a 48 y/o woman's parents desperately trying to save their daughter, but because of the other dead bodies you've seen, you know there is no use from the waxy skin, but you have to try anyway. Or the little child whose mother stabbed her in the back 5 times with a steak knife, or the person who jumped off a bridge and you jump into 35-degree water to try and save them, but they die in your arms. How about finding a paint store on fire with apartments above it and you've got to take out a door, crawl up smoke-filled stairs and hallway to evacuate anyone inside.

LEO's go through this and so much more. That doesn't even begin to tell about the stress at home if the spouse in not understanding of the pressure a LEO experiences. Unless a person has been through this, they are in no position to judge the actions and/or mistakes of a police officer.

Posted: **April 16th, 2019, 12:39 pm**

mes5464 wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 8:13 am
Rand wrote: ↑April 14th, 2019, 6:39 am The problems is not legal weapons, but illegal weapons. The bad guys (no, not the government in this case) can get full auto firepower, and the law enforcement people have to be able to keep up in an active shooter situation.
To limit LEO's to legal firearms is to set them up to fail, and they are real people with real families too.
There is no such thing as an illegal weapon.

I don't have a problem with LEO having full auto weapons. I object to their prohibiting the people from also having full auto weapons without special licences and prohibit the carry of them.

Fair.

Posted: **April 17th, 2019, 1:31 pm**

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑March 30th, 2019, 3:16 pm Re: What cops get away with, full auto machine gun fired on busy I-15

This happened a year ago, it is not fresh news, however it is telling and they did get away with this. "During the shootout, two bullets also hit a Provo man and a passing car. Utah County Sheriff Jim Tracy confirmed Wednesday that those shots were fired by law enforcement officers. One bullet shattered the rear window of a pickup truck, but missed the four children and parents inside, Tracy said. Another bullet hit the shoulder of a man who had stopped on the side of the freeway to put gas in his tank."https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i87aviBPVI4

Yes, this news story is over a year old. However, your post is deceptive and misleading for a number of reasons.

1. You imply that the officer shooting the fully automatic weapon (mp5?) is responsible for the innocent bystanders hit and/or nearly hit by bullets. This is not true. These people were hit by bullets from the first encounter when the officers first pulled the suspect over and he opened fire on them and the officers returned fire using handguns. The suspect then fled the scene and led officers on a low speed chase for several miles before the one officer used the automatic weapon to end the chase by shooting and hitting only the suspect and his vehicle, disabling them. Again, the innocent people were hit from bullets fired from a handgun and not the fully automatic weapon as you are suggesting.

2. You strongly imply that the officer fired his automatic weapon into traffic on a busy interstate freeway. This is not the case. After the suspect fled the scene of the first shooting (where only handguns were used) and led police on a low speed chase northbound on I-15 law enforcement shutdown all on-ramp traffic and kept civilian traffic clear from the chase. As you can see in the video you posted there is no traffic northbound on I-15, and the only traffic you can see is southbound on I-15 which is separated by tall and thick cement barriers. Furthermore, the officer is uphill on the off-ramp shooting downwards directly towards the oncoming suspect, and not across lanes towards southbound traffic. If anyone was in the line of fire it would have been the police further back in pursuit. All of his shots hit the suspect and his vehicle. And it was done in the best way possible - on a freeway that had been shut down. The suspect had tried taking the University Parkway exit into downtown Orem, he was armed and dangerous, had already shot at officers and, unbeknownst to them at the time, already murdered someone. That officer prevented the situation from getting any worse and safely ended the chase.

3. The officers had been authorized to use deadly force on the suspect. They are not "getting away" with anything. Guess who ultimately authorizes the police to use deadly force? We the people who employ them on our behalf. I live in Orem where the chase ended and I'm perfectly fine with the actions of law enforcement that night.

You can watch the entire shooting and chase here:

https://youtu.be/R1o5Evdy7Tw

Pay special attention to the first encounter and you can later see the vehicle of the person who had been shot who was stopped on the right shoulder of the road out of gas. This victim, and the other near miss, happened well before the officer fired his fully automatic weapon that ended the chase.

Posted: **April 17th, 2019, 3:46 pm**

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:02 pm
JK4Woods wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 8:43 pm Cops are notoriously bad shots.
Have you ever been in a combat situation? I hope not. Studies have shown that no matter your proficiency in shooting, fully 80% of all shots fired in a combat situation are missed. How good of a shot would a person be if they have a criminal shooting at them, or you were dodging a car while shooting when some idiot is trying to run you over, or the target itself is moving? You can train and train and train, and fire tens of thousands of rounds, but the rule is that you will always encounter circumstances in which there are too many unknown variables. In fact, every encounter by a LEO always without exception has unknown variables. It is those unknown variables that create the missed shots fired by the police.

I'm not saying this about you, but in today's society, it is fashionable and politically correct to bash and judge the police and be a proficient armchair quarterback with the benefit of a calm, quiet home, a Coke in hand, a TV dinner on a tray and make judgments. These so-called "civilian review boards" are a huge joke. None of the members of the review board have ever been through an academy or been on patrol with their life on the line. There is constant stress and being eternally vigilant and on the look-out for someone who would love nothing more than to kill a LEO. You simply cannot believe what a LEO goes through. Try having a contract on your life. I did, for 3 or 4 weeks. My head was a swivel on my shoulders and anyone who approached me was suspect. I seriously considered sending my wife and son to my parent's home. I was lucky in that the perps were caught. Try fighting hand to hand for your life. I have, in the wildest, knock-down, drag-out fight I've ever been in with a guy trying to get to his knife and stick me. My vest would not have stopped that knife. Or how about the suicide scene where the guy puts a shotgun under his chin and blows what little brains he had all over the ceiling because he was mad at his ex-wife and decided to "fix her." Or responding to a woman down, CPR in progress and half-way there, you are notified by dispatch that you are the highest medical authority because you have a defibrillator in your car and the paramedics are on an extended rescue at a traffic collision. When you get there, you see a 48 y/o woman's parents desperately trying to save their daughter, but because of the other dead bodies you've seen, you know there is no use from the waxy skin, but you have to try anyway. Or the little child whose mother stabbed her in the back 5 times with a steak knife, or the person who jumped off a bridge and you jump into 35-degree water to try and save them, but they die in your arms. How about finding a paint store on fire with apartments above it and you've got to take out a door, crawl up smoke-filled stairs and hallway to evacuate anyone inside.

LEO's go through this and so much more. That doesn't even begin to tell about the stress at home if the spouse in not understanding of the pressure a LEO experiences. Unless a person has been through this, they are in no position to judge the actions and/or mistakes of a police officer.

I belong to an "unnamed" gun range. It will remain unnamed for this post. The people who do the most damage to that range are evil doers and law enforcement. It had a new building for prone shooting. After a Law enforcement training session there were 3 holes in the building.

And lets not get started on the New York cops who unloaded on the guy that was 6 feet from them on the sidewalk and they shot about 10 innocent bystanders.

I do not dismiss anything you say about stress, training, actual encounters, every word is true.

But as a Range safety officer, I have seen no more dangerous individuals on the range than Law Enforcement Officers. It is a common joke on that range. In fact they dedicated a full day when the range is closed to just Law Enforcement Officers.

Posted: **April 17th, 2019, 3:50 pm**

Isn't Utah the same place where a nurse was literally dragged from the hospital under arrest because she refused to draw an unconscious, (and probably drunk or high) man's blood until the police had obtained a warrant? Honestly, much of the problem are people like her, who are willing to let the police off the hook and settle. When they should be going after them with a vengeance.

Posted: **April 17th, 2019, 3:58 pm**

Lord of my dogs wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 3:46 pm
Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:02 pm
JK4Woods wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 8:43 pm Cops are notoriously bad shots.
Have you ever been in a combat situation? I hope not. Studies have shown that no matter your proficiency in shooting, fully 80% of all shots fired in a combat situation are missed. How good of a shot would a person be if they have a criminal shooting at them, or you were dodging a car while shooting when some idiot is trying to run you over, or the target itself is moving? You can train and train and train, and fire tens of thousands of rounds, but the rule is that you will always encounter circumstances in which there are too many unknown variables. In fact, every encounter by a LEO always without exception has unknown variables. It is those unknown variables that create the missed shots fired by the police.

I'm not saying this about you, but in today's society, it is fashionable and politically correct to bash and judge the police and be a proficient armchair quarterback with the benefit of a calm, quiet home, a Coke in hand, a TV dinner on a tray and make judgments. These so-called "civilian review boards" are a huge joke. None of the members of the review board have ever been through an academy or been on patrol with their life on the line. There is constant stress and being eternally vigilant and on the look-out for someone who would love nothing more than to kill a LEO. You simply cannot believe what a LEO goes through. Try having a contract on your life. I did, for 3 or 4 weeks. My head was a swivel on my shoulders and anyone who approached me was suspect. I seriously considered sending my wife and son to my parent's home. I was lucky in that the perps were caught. Try fighting hand to hand for your life. I have, in the wildest, knock-down, drag-out fight I've ever been in with a guy trying to get to his knife and stick me. My vest would not have stopped that knife. Or how about the suicide scene where the guy puts a shotgun under his chin and blows what little brains he had all over the ceiling because he was mad at his ex-wife and decided to "fix her." Or responding to a woman down, CPR in progress and half-way there, you are notified by dispatch that you are the highest medical authority because you have a defibrillator in your car and the paramedics are on an extended rescue at a traffic collision. When you get there, you see a 48 y/o woman's parents desperately trying to save their daughter, but because of the other dead bodies you've seen, you know there is no use from the waxy skin, but you have to try anyway. Or the little child whose mother stabbed her in the back 5 times with a steak knife, or the person who jumped off a bridge and you jump into 35-degree water to try and save them, but they die in your arms. How about finding a paint store on fire with apartments above it and you've got to take out a door, crawl up smoke-filled stairs and hallway to evacuate anyone inside.

LEO's go through this and so much more. That doesn't even begin to tell about the stress at home if the spouse in not understanding of the pressure a LEO experiences. Unless a person has been through this, they are in no position to judge the actions and/or mistakes of a police officer.
I belong to an "unnamed" gun range. It will remain unnamed for this post. The people who do the most damage to that range are evil doers and law enforcement. It had a new building for prone shooting. After a Law enforcement training session there were 3 holes in the building.

And lets not get started on the New York cops who unloaded on the guy that was 6 feet from them on the sidewalk and they shot about 10 innocent bystanders.

I do not dismiss anything you say about stress, training, actual encounters, every word is true.

But as a Range safety officer, I have seen no more dangerous individuals on the range than Law Enforcement Officers. It is a common joke on that range. In fact they dedicated a full day when the range is closed to just Law Enforcement Officers.

I realize cops don't necessarily get to deal with the most steller individuals in any given community. They certainly don't, but I"m also not so convinced that they are really all that different from the "bad guys". Many of them anyway. A HUGE percentage of police officers are involved in domestic violence cases. Since they are cops, and most happen in small towns, the cases are most likely to get thrown out, or magically disappear from any records at all.
I know many people from many walks of life. Painters, engineers, stay at home moms, cops, pilots, medical people ranging from neurologists to nurses assistants. You name it. But the one group that overwhelmingly, hands down has domestic problems with mistreating their wives and children, are, you guessed it, COPS.

There's a reason there's a "trend" towards bashing law enforcement. It's because we are in a phase in our society where bad behavior is FINALLY getting called out. The good ole boy network is slowly but surely being dismantled. That's not to say that certain targets get missed, or that innocent people are getting in the cross fire, much like with Kavanaugh, or the asinine #metoo movement brought on by those Hollywood bimbos, but if cops think they should get a pass at collateral damage, then the rest of us should also.

Oh, and I've never been in a combat situation, but I HAVE fired a simple, relatively small handgun. My aim was pretty good for my first and only time, but I'm pretty certain that if someone was firing back at me, that my aim would absolutely suck. So yeah, I get that.

Posted: **April 17th, 2019, 4:06 pm**

tdj wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 3:50 pm Isn't Utah the same place where a nurse was literally dragged from the hospital under arrest because she refused to draw an unconscious, (and probably drunk or high) man's blood until the police had obtained a warrant? Honestly, much of the problem are people like her, who are willing to let the police off the hook and settle. When they should be going after them with a vengeance.

He was an Idaho truck driver who died from his injuries who was not using any drugs.

Blood had already been drawn so the doc's could work on him. They should have waited for their warrant, there was no hurry except in their minds. They were pissed she wouldn't kiss their butts and resisted. She did settle for 500,000. But one officer was fired, I suspect the other one is writing parking tickets. Hospital policy was re-written so that it never could happen again. And I believe the local PD also had to fix broken or ignored policies.

So she did not let them off the hook. She stood her ground and is a local hero.

The guys that let them off the hook were the University Hospital's Security team that allowed them to drag her around like a rag doll. They should have beat the carp out of them.