LDS Freedom Forum

Lord of my dogs wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 3:46 pm
I belong to an "unnamed" gun range. It will remain unnamed for this post. The people who do the most damage to that range are evil doers and law enforcement. It had a new building for prone shooting. After a Law enforcement training session there were 3 holes in the building.

And lets not get started on the New York cops who unloaded on the guy that was 6 feet from them on the sidewalk and they shot about 10 innocent bystanders.

I do not dismiss anything you say about stress, training, actual encounters, every word is true.

But as a Range safety officer, I have seen no more dangerous individuals on the range than Law Enforcement Officers. It is a common joke on that range. In fact they dedicated a full day when the range is closed to just Law Enforcement Officers.

Lord of my dogs wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 4:06 pm

tdj wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 3:50 pm Isn't Utah the same place where a nurse was literally dragged from the hospital under arrest because she refused to draw an unconscious, (and probably drunk or high) man's blood until the police had obtained a warrant? Honestly, much of the problem are people like her, who are willing to let the police off the hook and settle. When they should be going after them with a vengeance.

He was an Idaho truck driver who died from his injuries who was not using any drugs.

Blood had already been drawn so the doc's could work on him. They should have waited for their warrant, there was no hurry except in their minds. They were pissed she wouldn't kiss their butts and resisted. She did settle for 500,000. But one officer was fired, I suspect the other one is writing parking tickets. Hospital policy was re-written so that it never could happen again. And I believe the local PD also had to fix broken or ignored policies.

So she did not let them off the hook. She stood her ground and is a local hero.

The guys that let them off the hook were the University Hospital's Security team that allowed them to drag her around like a rag doll. They should have beat the carp out of them.

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:02 pm

JK4Woods wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 8:43 pm Cops are notoriously bad shots.

Have you ever been in a combat situation? I hope not. Studies have shown that no matter your proficiency in shooting, fully 80% of all shots fired in a combat situation are missed. How good of a shot would a person be if they have a criminal shooting at them, or you were dodging a car while shooting when some idiot is trying to run you over, or the target itself is moving? You can train and train and train, and fire tens of thousands of rounds, but the rule is that you will always encounter circumstances in which there are too many unknown variables. In fact, every encounter by a LEO always without exception has unknown variables. It is those unknown variables that create the missed shots fired by the police.

I'm not saying this about you, but in today's society, it is fashionable and politically correct to bash and judge the police and be a proficient armchair quarterback with the benefit of a calm, quiet home, a Coke in hand, a TV dinner on a tray and make judgments. These so-called "civilian review boards" are a huge joke. None of the members of the review board have ever been through an academy or been on patrol with their life on the line. There is constant stress and being eternally vigilant and on the look-out for someone who would love nothing more than to kill a LEO. You simply cannot believe what a LEO goes through. Try having a contract on your life. I did, for 3 or 4 weeks. My head was a swivel on my shoulders and anyone who approached me was suspect. I seriously considered sending my wife and son to my parent's home. I was lucky in that the perps were caught. Try fighting hand to hand for your life. I have, in the wildest, knock-down, drag-out fight I've ever been in with a guy trying to get to his knife and stick me. My vest would not have stopped that knife. Or how about the suicide scene where the guy puts a shotgun under his chin and blows what little brains he had all over the ceiling because he was mad at his ex-wife and decided to "fix her." Or responding to a woman down, CPR in progress and half-way there, you are notified by dispatch that you are the highest medical authority because you have a defibrillator in your car and the paramedics are on an extended rescue at a traffic collision. When you get there, you see a 48 y/o woman's parents desperately trying to save their daughter, but because of the other dead bodies you've seen, you know there is no use from the waxy skin, but you have to try anyway. Or the little child whose mother stabbed her in the back 5 times with a steak knife, or the person who jumped off a bridge and you jump into 35-degree water to try and save them, but they die in your arms. How about finding a paint store on fire with apartments above it and you've got to take out a door, crawl up smoke-filled stairs and hallway to evacuate anyone inside.

LEO's go through this and so much more. That doesn't even begin to tell about the stress at home if the spouse in not understanding of the pressure a LEO experiences. Unless a person has been through this, they are in no position to judge the actions and/or mistakes of a police officer.

Aprhys wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 2:36 am

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:02 pm

JK4Woods wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 8:43 pm Cops are notoriously bad shots.

Have you ever been in a combat situation? I hope not. Studies have shown that no matter your proficiency in shooting, fully 80% of all shots fired in a combat situation are missed. How good of a shot would a person be if they have a criminal shooting at them, or you were dodging a car while shooting when some idiot is trying to run you over, or the target itself is moving? You can train and train and train, and fire tens of thousands of rounds, but the rule is that you will always encounter circumstances in which there are too many unknown variables. In fact, every encounter by a LEO always without exception has unknown variables. It is those unknown variables that create the missed shots fired by the police.

I'm not saying this about you, but in today's society, it is fashionable and politically correct to bash and judge the police and be a proficient armchair quarterback with the benefit of a calm, quiet home, a Coke in hand, a TV dinner on a tray and make judgments. These so-called "civilian review boards" are a huge joke. None of the members of the review board have ever been through an academy or been on patrol with their life on the line. There is constant stress and being eternally vigilant and on the look-out for someone who would love nothing more than to kill a LEO. You simply cannot believe what a LEO goes through. Try having a contract on your life. I did, for 3 or 4 weeks. My head was a swivel on my shoulders and anyone who approached me was suspect. I seriously considered sending my wife and son to my parent's home. I was lucky in that the perps were caught. Try fighting hand to hand for your life. I have, in the wildest, knock-down, drag-out fight I've ever been in with a guy trying to get to his knife and stick me. My vest would not have stopped that knife. Or how about the suicide scene where the guy puts a shotgun under his chin and blows what little brains he had all over the ceiling because he was mad at his ex-wife and decided to "fix her." Or responding to a woman down, CPR in progress and half-way there, you are notified by dispatch that you are the highest medical authority because you have a defibrillator in your car and the paramedics are on an extended rescue at a traffic collision. When you get there, you see a 48 y/o woman's parents desperately trying to save their daughter, but because of the other dead bodies you've seen, you know there is no use from the waxy skin, but you have to try anyway. Or the little child whose mother stabbed her in the back 5 times with a steak knife, or the person who jumped off a bridge and you jump into 35-degree water to try and save them, but they die in your arms. How about finding a paint store on fire with apartments above it and you've got to take out a door, crawl up smoke-filled stairs and hallway to evacuate anyone inside.

LEO's go through this and so much more. That doesn't even begin to tell about the stress at home if the spouse in not understanding of the pressure a LEO experiences. Unless a person has been through this, they are in no position to judge the actions and/or mistakes of a police officer.

Two thoughts. I have been in a few shooting situations having spent three years of my life in either Afg. or Iraq and your correct, regardless of how much you train when it comes time to finally put rounds down range things change. Second. Regardless of how much LEOs want people to believe that they are constantly putting their lives in danger for us ungrateful civilians, it's a lie. The roofer fixing the hole in your house has a much higher chance of being injured and dying on the job than a cop does.

Aprhys wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 2:36 am
Two thoughts. I have been in a few shooting situations having spent three years of my life in either Afg. or Iraq and your correct, regardless of how much you train when it comes time to finally put rounds down range things change.

Second. Regardless of how much LEOs want people to believe that they are constantly putting their lives in danger for us ungrateful civilians, it's a lie. The roofer fixing the hole in your house has a much higher chance of being injured and dying on the job than a cop does.

mirkwood wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 5:27 am
I've known a few roofers. We were talking the other day about the statistics that show how often they are attacked, injured or killed by somone because they were a roofer. The numbers were flat out astonishing...

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 3:24 am

Aprhys wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 2:36 am

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 11:02 pm

JK4Woods wrote: ↑April 15th, 2019, 8:43 pm Cops are notoriously bad shots.

Have you ever been in a combat situation? I hope not. Studies have shown that no matter your proficiency in shooting, fully 80% of all shots fired in a combat situation are missed. How good of a shot would a person be if they have a criminal shooting at them, or you were dodging a car while shooting when some idiot is trying to run you over, or the target itself is moving? You can train and train and train, and fire tens of thousands of rounds, but the rule is that you will always encounter circumstances in which there are too many unknown variables. In fact, every encounter by a LEO always without exception has unknown variables. It is those unknown variables that create the missed shots fired by the police.

I'm not saying this about you, but in today's society, it is fashionable and politically correct to bash and judge the police and be a proficient armchair quarterback with the benefit of a calm, quiet home, a Coke in hand, a TV dinner on a tray and make judgments. These so-called "civilian review boards" are a huge joke. None of the members of the review board have ever been through an academy or been on patrol with their life on the line. There is constant stress and being eternally vigilant and on the look-out for someone who would love nothing more than to kill a LEO. You simply cannot believe what a LEO goes through. Try having a contract on your life. I did, for 3 or 4 weeks. My head was a swivel on my shoulders and anyone who approached me was suspect. I seriously considered sending my wife and son to my parent's home. I was lucky in that the perps were caught. Try fighting hand to hand for your life. I have, in the wildest, knock-down, drag-out fight I've ever been in with a guy trying to get to his knife and stick me. My vest would not have stopped that knife. Or how about the suicide scene where the guy puts a shotgun under his chin and blows what little brains he had all over the ceiling because he was mad at his ex-wife and decided to "fix her." Or responding to a woman down, CPR in progress and half-way there, you are notified by dispatch that you are the highest medical authority because you have a defibrillator in your car and the paramedics are on an extended rescue at a traffic collision. When you get there, you see a 48 y/o woman's parents desperately trying to save their daughter, but because of the other dead bodies you've seen, you know there is no use from the waxy skin, but you have to try anyway. Or the little child whose mother stabbed her in the back 5 times with a steak knife, or the person who jumped off a bridge and you jump into 35-degree water to try and save them, but they die in your arms. How about finding a paint store on fire with apartments above it and you've got to take out a door, crawl up smoke-filled stairs and hallway to evacuate anyone inside.

LEO's go through this and so much more. That doesn't even begin to tell about the stress at home if the spouse in not understanding of the pressure a LEO experiences. Unless a person has been through this, they are in no position to judge the actions and/or mistakes of a police officer.

Two thoughts. I have been in a few shooting situations having spent three years of my life in either Afg. or Iraq and your correct, regardless of how much you train when it comes time to finally put rounds down range things change. Second. Regardless of how much LEOs want people to believe that they are constantly putting their lives in danger for us ungrateful civilians, it's a lie. The roofer fixing the hole in your house has a much higher chance of being injured and dying on the job than a cop does.

Thanks for your service.

However, you are flat out wrong about LEO's putting their lives on the line. Every single time a LEO goes on patrol, he always is taking the chance of dying at the hands of some punk or deranged perp or drunk driver. A roofer doesn't have people trying to kill him. You don't even have to go out on patrol. I was stalked for 2 years by a mentally deranged man after I arrested him for DUI. I later learned from his parents that he tried figuring out ways in which he could ambush me. He eventually mistook another LEO for me and tried stabbing him. The perp stopped two high-speed pieces of lead measuring .40, which eliminated my problem. I've never been in combat in the military, but from what I have seen thanks to the wonderful world of GoPro, is that it is uncommon to be up close and personal with your enemy shooting at you from 3-5 yards, which is the average distance of a gunfight that a cop will experience. You can walk up to a car during a traffic stop and find yourself fighting for your life. You can go to a domestic, or a hotel room after a counterfeiter and wind up in hand to hand combat with the suspect doing his best to kill you. That is a rare occurrence in the military. It does happen, but the idea in the military (at least when I was in the Army), is to keep a bit of distance between you and the enemy, lay down suppressive fire and then call in air support if available or light him up with a javelin missile or some 40mm grenades. Up close and personal is avoided if at all possible; it is not conducive to survival. For a LEO, up close and personal is standard fare.

If I may make a suggestion, find a department that allows people to do a ride-along and see what goes on. Do that a few times.