LDS Freedom Forum

The current leadership of the church are the Lord's. If we wish to serve in the Lord's kingdom we would do well to heed and help them. I, for one, do my best to sustain and support them according to my conscious and ability.

Attributing faults to them is a dangerous road and is fighting the wrong fight.

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 9:18 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:26 pm
Our day lacks the miracles, visions, visitations of angels, and manifestations of Gods power and spiritual fruit which Moroni attributes to unbelief in Christ. And no, it's not because we don't follow our leaders close enough. As Elder Oaks stated, he has not received these manifestations either. They neither go in themselves, neither suffer others to go in (Matthew 23:13).

I think this is "the" or a least "a" crux of your issue. Are you saying that you have not seen miracles, or had visions, or had visitations of angels, or other spiritual fruits or are you saying the church as a whole does not have these experiences.

If you are saying that you have not had these experiences then I sustain your interpretation of unbelief. However, I of myself can testify to each of these events multiple times in multiple forms. You are also painting with a monstrously broad brush stoke to interpret Elder Oaks statement as applying to all spiritual experiences such as these. He was being far more specific than what you are making up in your interpretation.

Poor deceived Moroni. His relationship is too special...

"I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another in mine own language, concerning these things...
And now, I would commend you to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and apostles have written"

marc wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 7:08 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 5:21 pmSeveral of you folks...not just you need to really come to an understanding of what our relationship with Christ is and how it is accomplished, so I provide and very clear and concise source of information that is probably going to upset the apple cart ... but here goes...the link:

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r- ... ship-lord/

...Now I know that some may be offended at the counsel that they should not strive for a special and personal relationship with Christ. It will seem to them as though I am speaking out against mother love, or Americanism, or the little red schoolhouse. But I am not. There is a fine line here over which true worshipers will not step...

And you have never heard one of the First Presidency or the Twelve, who hold the keys of the kingdom, and who are appointed to see that we are not “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine” (Ephesians 4:14)—you have never heard one of them advocate this excessive zeal that calls for gaining a so-called special and personal relationship with Christ...

You have heard them teach and testify of the ministry and mission of the Lord Jesus, using the most persuasive and powerful language at their command. But never, never at any time have they taught or endorsed the inordinate or intemperate zeal that encourages endless, sometimes day-long prayers, in order to gain a personal relationship with the Savior...

On the contrary, Joseph Smith frequently admonished the saints to go on and make their calling and election sure, to obtain the privilege of receiving the Other Comforter, which is Jesus Christ. The least saint may learn every bit of knowledge offered to those in the chief seats. And this is obtained precisely thus:

LoF 2, Question 146: How do men obtain a knowledge of the glory of God, his perfections and attributes?
By devoting themselves to his service, through prayer and supplication incessantly, strengthening their faith in him, until like Enoch, the brother of Jared, and Moses, they obtain a manifestation of God to themselves.

And by God, it means Jesus Christ. I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, who is the very eternal Father as Abinadi declared.

Mosiah 15:1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

Even Zeezrom had enough understanding to query Alma and Amulek:

Alma 11:38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?

39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;

40 And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.

Elder McConkie's discourse reminds me of the following verse:

Matthew 23:13 ¶ But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Don't get me wrong. I love those who preside in the church. I have charity for them. But I will never let any of them stand between myself and my God, even my Father, Jesus Christ who gives power to all to become His sons and His daughters.

I mean these things soberly and respectfully with love.

From one Elder McConkie who had a special relationship with Christ evidenced in the books he wrote about the subject, his talks, and his final testimony, do we really understand what he is saying here? Is he really contradicting what Book of Mormon prophets are encouraging us towards or is he trying to teach us something that could ultimately bless us? I firmly believe in the latter having read almost everything he has ever written on the subject.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 9:23 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 9:04 pm

B. wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 6:24 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 5:21 pmSeveral of you folks...not just you need to really come to an understanding of what our relationship with Christ is and how it is accomplished...

Wow, how very condescending.

What is it that the scriptures say about how the wicked take the truth...I'm sure you remember it....but at least you realized I was including you in the group. I should add though it was not my intent to be condescending but to point to valid and consistent and true doctrine as opposed to just opinionating all over the place.

Speaking of scriptures, you can't read the Book of Mormon without realizing that the talk you linked is full of false doctrine, and anti-scriptural in almost every sentence, and most certainly in the main points BRM is making. He was reprimanded by the Brethren for this talk, but in order to save face, they let it stand.

You claim to be somewhat of a scriptorian. How is it that you could agree with someone who says that members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST should not worship Christ, or develop a close and special relationship with Him? How can you agree with someone who discourages members of His Church from doing what Enos did? Or Lehi, Nephi, and almost every other faithful person we read about in the Book of Mormon?

First off Elder McConkie kind of asks the same question in reverse when he inquires of when has anyone heard a prophet or an apostle preach the doctrine that was being outlined in the book.

The second thing is that I know Elder McConkie. I have read his writings, I have studied his talks, and lately I have found I can do a mean impression of his delivery in a conference talk. I have poured through and over and all around his material and I know what Elder McConkie thinks about most subjects. I know that what you and others are hearing are not relative to the question as you have asked it. Somehow you are projecting something that Elder McConkie does not express and in doing so are mistaking his delivery to be something other that what it is. For instance consider upon this quote from Elder McConkie:

I repeat: apostles and prophets simply serve as patterns and examples to show all men what they may receive if they are true and faithful. There is nothing an apostle can receive that is not available to every elder in the kingdom. As we have heretofore quoted, from the Prophet's sermon on the Second Comforter: "God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what he will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them." (Teachings, p. 149.) It follows that everything stated by Elder Oliver Cowdery in his charge to the apostles could also be given as a charge to all elders. Every elder is entitled and expected to seek and obtain all the spiritual blessings of the gospel, including the crowning blessing of seeing the Lord face to face.(Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah, 578-595

So knowing this I know that what ever Elder McConkie does mean it does not mean he is discouraging making the PROPER efforts to receive the Lord Face to Face. Here is another:

It is the privilege of all those who have made their calling and election sure to see God; to talk with him face to face; to commune with him on a personal basis from time to time. These are the ones upon whom the Lord sends the Second Comforter. Their inheritance of exaltation and eternal life is assured, and so it becomes with them here and now in this life as it will be with all exalted beings in the life to come. They become the friends of God and converse with him on a friendly basis as one man speaks to another. (B. McConkie, The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ 584.)

This again seems to point to something other than what you are getting out of the Elder McConkie statements. However, there are subtle hints of his perspective even in this quote that match exactly with what he is saying in the talk. He focuses on the fact that the Father sends the Second Comforter at His discretion. The Father is the lead in this entire process of calling and election made sure and receiving the Second Comforter.

Here is another quote:

There is a divine outpouring of heavenly grace and power that exceeds anything else known to men or angels. There is a Spirit-conferred gift that is greater than anything else of which the human mind can conceive. There is a spiritual endowment so wondrous and great, so beyond comprehension and understanding, so divine and godlike in its nature, that it cannot be described in words. It can only be felt by the power of the Spirit. Those only who are the peers of the prophets and who mingle with seers on equal terms; those only who like Isaiah and Ezekiel and John and Paul have laid their all on the altar and have risen above every carnal desire; those only who are in harmony with the Lord and his Spirit and who keep his commandments as they are kept by the angels of God in heaven—they alone can receive this gift. It is called the Second Comforter. (Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah: 677.)

This dispenses with the casual ask and you shall see mentality that so many seem to be proponents of on this forum. Receiving the Second comforter is far more than getting to be pals with the Savior. It is a lifetime of sustaining the prophets, of keeping the commandments, of complete and total sacrifice of our will to the Lord. I know Elder McConkie and several of these quotes open up his intent and how he views the world and it is different that what everyone has accused him of here.

Finally, while I can provide pages upon pages of his thoughts that lend clarity to this talk of our relationship with the Lord I will end with this one:

We don’t need to get a complex or get a feeling that you have to be perfect to be saved. You don’t. There’s only been one perfect person, and that’s the Lord Jesus, but in order to be saved in the Kingdom of God and in order to pass the test of mortality, what you have to do is get on the straight and narrow path—thus charting a course leading to eternal life—and then, being on that path, pass out of this life in full fellowship. I’m not saying that you don’t have to keep the commandments. I’m saying you don’t have to be perfect to be saved. If you did, no one would be saved. The way it operates is this: you get on the path that’s named the “straight and narrow.” The straight and narrow path leads a very great distance, to a reward that’s called eternal life. If you’re on that path and pressing forward, and you die, you’ll never get off the path. There is no such thing as falling off the straight and narrow path in the life to come. If you’re working zealously in this life—though you haven’t fully overcome the world and you haven’t done all you hoped you might do—you’re still going to be saved. You don’t have to have an excessive zeal that becomes fanatical and becomes unbalancing. What you have to do is stay in the mainstream of the Church and live as upright and decent people live in the Church—keeping the commandments, paying your tithing, serving in the organizations of the Church, loving the Lord, staying on the straight and narrow path. If you’re on that path when death comes you’ll never fall off from it, and, for all practical purposes, your calling and election is made sure.” Bruce R. McConkie, “The Probationary Test of Mortality,” Jan 10, 1982, at the SL Institute

It is some of the same concepts as in the talk but what he is trying to speak to in the our "Relationship with the Lord" talk is the spirit of "excessive zeal" that is "fanatical" and "becomes unbalancing."

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 9:23 pm Speaking of scriptures, you can't read the Book of Mormon without realizing that the talk you linked is full of false doctrine, and anti-scriptural in almost every sentence, and most certainly in the main points BRM is making. He was reprimanded by the Brethren for this talk, but in order to save face, they let it stand.

Have you seen this reprimand? Or is this just more third party claims. I do not know I have searched and never found. While it may even be that there was a reprimand Elder McConkie was known for his forthrightness. I hope he won't consider me bold for thinking I might understand why he on occasion chose public rebuke. There is a gospel principle that speaks to repentence: Elder George Q. Cannon speaks to this in a talk from long ago:

We could conceive of a man honestly differing in opinion from the Authorities of the Church and yet not be an apostate; but we could not conceive of a man publishing these differences of opinion and seeking by arguments, sophistry and special pleading to enforce them upon the people to produce division and strife and to place the acts and counsels of the Authorities of the Church, if possible, in a wrong light, and not be an apostate, for such conduct was apostasy as we understood the term. We further said that while a man might honestly differ in opinion from the Authorities through a want of understanding, he had to be exceedingly careful how he acted in relation to such differences, or the adversary would take advantage of him, and he would soon become imbued with the spirit of apostasy and be found fighting against God and the authority which He had placed here to govern His Church.[/u] (Repentance and Conversion, Russell M. Nelson, Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles)

My thoughts are that as a Apostle of the Lord Elder McConkie thought it not unreasonable that if a public body of the church had been misled with incorrect doctrine then a public rebuke was appropriate to warn the saints and to allow the offender the best opportunity at repentance by publicly responding to the situation. Brother Pace was admirable in his response to his eternal credit, I'm sure.

So you ask how I can agree with Elder McConkie and what you have contrived to be unscriptural....I clearly do not see it as unscriptural. I have yet to see a single verse that says we worship the Son as the Father.
Yes, I have to admit that the distinctions become very fine because we can find prophetic commentary that speaks to worshiping the Savior for his role in our salvation. Please consider:

We love Him. We honor Him. We thank Him. We worship Him. He has done for each of us and for all mankind that which none other could have done. God be thanked for the gift of His Beloved Son—our Savior, the Redeemer of the world, the Lamb without blemish who was offered as a sacrifice for all mankind. First Presidency Message Inspirational Thoughts By President Gordon B. Hinckley

However it is never in a superlative manner which places the Father in a secondary position. This is the "unbalanced" or "fanatical" that Elder McConkie is not at all fond of. However, note how President Hinckley balances his statement of worship by praising the Father for the gift of his Son.

In the big scheme of things a newly baptized member of the church would not be held accountable for many errors in judgment that someone who did know better would be held accountable to. However as we advance in knowledge and understanding there are personal issues and flaws in our character that if we do not overcome will place us in a state of opposition. Subtleties become the playing field of judgment. Elder McConkie is addressing the subtleties of error that those on the quest of receiving the Second Comforter should know better than than to commit. Hyper focusing on the Savior to the displacement of the Father is one such subtlety.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 9:23 pm You claim to be somewhat of a scriptorian. How is it that you could agree with someone who says that members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST should not worship Christ, or develop a close and special relationship with Him? How can you agree with someone who discourages members of His Church from doing what Enos did? Or Lehi, Nephi, and almost every other faithful person we read about in the Book of Mormon?

First, I don't think I have ever made that claim. I know much in the scriptures and the writings of the prophets
but the real sense of what I feel is I lament that my mind requires me to repeat over and over efforts at pounding them into my useful repertoire for the slowness and difficulty of retention. I forget a Hundred times more than I have studied and researched and it troubles me sometimes. I am good with words and exceptional at parsing correct understanding because I go to such lengths to gather every single thing on a subject. I do what the Lords says and I search it out thoroughly and then I allow him to teach me and I record the entire process in my studies. Some will read that as arrogant - it is simply what I am and I feel no shame in acknowledging these things either positive or negative.

I hope I have thoroughly answered your question though with examples that Elder McConkie does not discourage anyone as you have characterized it. In fact in the bulk of his other material it becomes clear he hopes all will come unto Christ and receive the Second Comforter. However, he generously recognizes that looking beyond the mark will find many outside of the goals they seek and he warns them of the risks - as a caring and loving Apostle should.

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 9:23 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:51 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:28 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:10 pm All good counsel, until we become entrenched in the idea that certain voices can never be errant, or that we can undoubtedly trust certain people by virtue of their position. Any person or group can fall.

Likewise, the notion that the church today must be "true and living" because Joseph was a prophet, God lives, and the Book of Mormon is the true word of God is not a reasonable assumption. This doesn't mean the Church today can't be "true and living". I'm merely saying that when a large portion of our testimony of today's church follows this logic, then we are on shaky ground. We are always one generation away from apostasy, and no one has ever been given a guarantee from God that they are immune.

We must come to Christ ourselves, plant his. his word deep into our hearts (the seed from Alma 32) or grasp firmly to the iron rod (his word and Spirit from Nephi's teachings). This word, his law, and our connection to him must become sealed on our hearts and rid us of all desire to do evil. Thus born of the Spirit ourselves, we can be empowered to follow the Holy Ghost and stop outsourcing our connection to God to others.

Descend from the clouds of ambiguity and generalization. Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk. Where's the beef in this burger you keep serving up?

As well no one has said or advocated any differently that you need to come unto Christ but I am sound and secure that you will not do so but that you understand your proper relationship in sustaining his chosen leaders instead of denigrating and minimalizing their role in the process of coming unto Christ.

My statement should be self evident, but it isn't to a people so steeped in tradition that that doctrine can't be separated from tradition.
But for one, when a President of a church assures that church that neither he nor anyone in his position after him will ever be permitted to lead that people astray.

When have you seen a prophet lead the church astray. What are the specifics of this egregious act? So far all you can point to is that never has the prophet led the church astray - so the statement stands as true.

I'll give you the big one... that a church and it's carnal ordinances and it's keys given to men are necessary for salvation. That there's no other way than the church. That not only is a special relationship with Christ not necessary, but we shouldn't seek one. And that we shouldn't expect to be begotten spiritually of Him, like they were in scripture (at least according to Elder Oaks), that we won't have visions (according to Elder Ballard), neither should we worship Him (according to BRM). Oh yeah, and that polygamy was a celestial law to be lived in the flesh (according to Elder Young).

So brlenox, since you invoked that talk of Elder McConkie to me, all I'm ever going to respond back to you with is examples of people who DID worship Christ, and did both seek and find a special relationship with Him, because after they were born of Him, he became their Father.

If you don't want to hear these, stop responding to me.... And I'll likewise stop responding to you.

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 9:23 pm

When have you seen a prophet lead the church astray. What are the specifics of this egregious act? So far all you can point to is that never has the prophet led the church astray - so the statement stands as true.

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 11:03 pm I'll give you the big one... that a church and it's carnal ordinances and it's keys given to men are necessary for salvation. That there's no other way than the church. That not only is a special relationship with Christ not necessary, but we shouldn't seek one. And that we shouldn't expect to be begotten spiritually of Him, like they were in scripture (at least according to Elder Oaks), that we won't have visions (according to Elder Ballard), neither should we worship Him (according to BRM). Oh yeah, and that polygamy was a celestial law to be lived in the flesh (according to Elder Young).

So brlenox, since you invoked that talk of Elder McConkie to me, all I'm ever going to respond back to you with is examples of people who DID worship Christ, and did both seek and find a special relationship with Him, because after they were born of Him, he became their Father.

If you don't want to hear these, stop responding to me.... And I'll likewise stop responding to you.

Your always such a fatalist. Do as you wish. However, perhaps after you take a moment and read through my last post you will understand Elder McConkie better and realize there is something missing from your private interpretations of his intended meanings. He was a great man and you could not do wrong to sustain him as such...unless you began to worship him in an arm of flesh sort of way. But hey, doesn't look like that is going to be a risk anytime soon.

Also, that I might understand your comment about "necessary for salvation" what do you think are the requirements of salvation?

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 11:59 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 11:03 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 9:23 pm

When have you seen a prophet lead the church astray. What are the specifics of this egregious act? So far all you can point to is that never has the prophet led the church astray - so the statement stands as true.

I'll give you the big one... that a church and it's carnal ordinances and it's keys given to men are necessary for salvation. That there's no other way than the church. That not only is a special relationship with Christ not necessary, but we shouldn't seek one. And that we shouldn't expect to be begotten spiritually of Him, like they were in scripture (at least according to Elder Oaks), that we won't have visions (according to Elder Ballard), neither should we worship Him (according to BRM). Oh yeah, and that polygamy was a celestial law to be lived in the flesh (according to Elder Young).

So brlenox, since you invoked that talk of Elder McConkie to me, all I'm ever going to respond back to you with is examples of people who DID worship Christ, and did both seek and find a special relationship with Him, because after they were born of Him, he became their Father.

If you don't want to hear these, stop responding to me.... And I'll likewise stop responding to you.

Your always such a fatalist. Do as you wish. However, perhaps after you take a moment and read through my last post you will understand Elder McConkie better and realize there is something missing from your private interpretations of his intended meanings. He was a great man and you could not do wrong to sustain him as such...unless you began to worship him in an arm of flesh sort of way. But hey, doesn't look like that is going to be a risk anytime soon.

Poor, misguided people of Zarahemla. They got too close to Christ.

"And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters."

caburnha wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 12:03 am

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 11:59 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 11:03 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 9:23 pm

When have you seen a prophet lead the church astray. What are the specifics of this egregious act? So far all you can point to is that never has the prophet led the church astray - so the statement stands as true.

I'll give you the big one... that a church and it's carnal ordinances and it's keys given to men are necessary for salvation. That there's no other way than the church. That not only is a special relationship with Christ not necessary, but we shouldn't seek one. And that we shouldn't expect to be begotten spiritually of Him, like they were in scripture (at least according to Elder Oaks), that we won't have visions (according to Elder Ballard), neither should we worship Him (according to BRM). Oh yeah, and that polygamy was a celestial law to be lived in the flesh (according to Elder Young).

So brlenox, since you invoked that talk of Elder McConkie to me, all I'm ever going to respond back to you with is examples of people who DID worship Christ, and did both seek and find a special relationship with Him, because after they were born of Him, he became their Father.

If you don't want to hear these, stop responding to me.... And I'll likewise stop responding to you.

Your always such a fatalist. Do as you wish. However, perhaps after you take a moment and read through my last post you will understand Elder McConkie better and realize there is something missing from your private interpretations of his intended meanings. He was a great man and you could not do wrong to sustain him as such...unless you began to worship him in an arm of flesh sort of way. But hey, doesn't look like that is going to be a risk anytime soon.

Poor, misguided people of Zarahemla. They got too close to Christ.

"And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters."

I added a question to my last post after your response. If you get a chance the answer is of interest to me.

brlenox wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 12:06 am

caburnha wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 12:03 am

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 11:59 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 11:03 pm


I'll give you the big one... that a church and it's carnal ordinances and it's keys given to men are necessary for salvation. That there's no other way than the church. That not only is a special relationship with Christ not necessary, but we shouldn't seek one. And that we shouldn't expect to be begotten spiritually of Him, like they were in scripture (at least according to Elder Oaks), that we won't have visions (according to Elder Ballard), neither should we worship Him (according to BRM). Oh yeah, and that polygamy was a celestial law to be lived in the flesh (according to Elder Young).

So brlenox, since you invoked that talk of Elder McConkie to me, all I'm ever going to respond back to you with is examples of people who DID worship Christ, and did both seek and find a special relationship with Him, because after they were born of Him, he became their Father.

If you don't want to hear these, stop responding to me.... And I'll likewise stop responding to you.

Your always such a fatalist. Do as you wish. However, perhaps after you take a moment and read through my last post you will understand Elder McConkie better and realize there is something missing from your private interpretations of his intended meanings. He was a great man and you could not do wrong to sustain him as such...unless you began to worship him in an arm of flesh sort of way. But hey, doesn't look like that is going to be a risk anytime soon.

Poor, misguided people of Zarahemla. They got too close to Christ.

"And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters."

I added a question to my last post after your response. If you get a chance the answer is of interest to me.

Poor wife of Lamoni. Hopefully someone told her that she wasn't saved yet, cause she hadn't been baptized in the true church yet, nor gotten her temple endowments.

29 And it came to pass that she went and took the queen by the hand, that perhaps she might raise her from the ground; and as soon as she touched her hand she arose and stood upon her feet, and cried with a loud voice, saying: O blessed Jesus, who has saved me from an awful hell! O blessed God, have mercy on this people!

drtanner wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 10:16 pm From one Elder McConkie who had a special relationship with Christ evidenced in the books he wrote about the subject, his talks, and his final testimony, do we really understand what he is saying here? Is he really contradicting what Book of Mormon prophets are encouraging us towards or is he trying to teach us something that could ultimately bless us? I firmly believe in the latter having read almost everything he has ever written on the subject.

With respect, brother, the only thing Elder McConkie needed to say was this: I have seen Jesus Christ and He has ministered to me. He can and will minister to you, too. Instead we get a treatise, which he qualifies with his own credentials/a brief resume:

Now I sincerely hope that no one will imagine that I have in the slightest degree downgraded the Lord Jesus in the scheme of things. I have not done so. As far as I know there is not a man on earth who thinks more highly of him than I do. It just may be that I have preached more sermons, taught more doctrine, and written more words about the Lord Jesus Christ than any other man now living. I have ten large volumes in print, seven of which deal almost entirely with Christ, and the other three with him and his doctrines.

There is a difference between knowing all that has been written about Jesus Christ and knowing Jesus Christ. I am not going to say that He didn't rend the veil and see Jesus Christ, but he sure didn't say he did either. The reader can take from that what he will. In either case, it does not distract me from my own unfettered walk with Jesus Christ unencumbered by space taken up by anyone else between us. I hope it does not distract the reader from his or her own walk with the Lord.

Mosiah 16:15

15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.

Poor Abinadi. He didn't have someone to correct his misunderstanding of the role of Christ.

marc wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 4:29 am There is a difference between knowing all that has been written about Jesus Christ and knowing Jesus Christ. I am not going to say that He didn't rend the veil and see Jesus Christ, but he sure didn't say he did either. The reader can take from that what he will. In either case, it does not distract me from my own unfettered walk with Jesus Christ unencumbered by space taken up by anyone else between us. I hope it does not distract the reader from his or her own walk with the Lord.

And this, in my opinion, is all that needs to be said on the subject. Thanks, marc.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 7:25 am Mosiah 16:15

15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.

Poor Abinidi. He didn't have someone to correct his misunderstanding of the role of Christ.

This has already been responded to In the talk.

marc wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 4:29 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 10:16 pm From one Elder McConkie who had a special relationship with Christ evidenced in the books he wrote about the subject, his talks, and his final testimony, do we really understand what he is saying here? Is he really contradicting what Book of Mormon prophets are encouraging us towards or is he trying to teach us something that could ultimately bless us? I firmly believe in the latter having read almost everything he has ever written on the subject.

With respect, brother, the only thing Elder McConkie needed to say was this: I have seen Jesus Christ and He has ministered to me. He can and will minister to you, too. Instead we get a treatise, which he qualifies with his own credentials/a brief resume:

Now I sincerely hope that no one will imagine that I have in the slightest degree downgraded the Lord Jesus in the scheme of things. I have not done so. As far as I know there is not a man on earth who thinks more highly of him than I do. It just may be that I have preached more sermons, taught more doctrine, and written more words about the Lord Jesus Christ than any other man now living. I have ten large volumes in print, seven of which deal almost entirely with Christ, and the other three with him and his doctrines.

There is a difference between knowing all that has been written about Jesus Christ and knowing Jesus Christ. I am not going to say that He didn't rend the veil and see Jesus Christ, but he sure didn't say he did either. The reader can take from that what he will. In either case, it does not distract me from my own unfettered walk with Jesus Christ unencumbered by space taken up by anyone else between us. I hope it does not distract the reader from his or her own walk with the Lord.

I’m sure he would be saddened by that judgement most of all that you would label him a distraction from anyone’s personal walk with Jesus.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 7:59 amI’m sure he would be saddened by that judgement most of all that you would label him a distraction from anyone’s personal walk with Jesus.

Good morning, drtanner. Knowing what he knows now on the other side of the veil, I'd wager he forgives me and delights in my diligence to walk with Christ without any distractions, himself included. I know I would.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 7:59 am

marc wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 4:29 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 10:16 pm From one Elder McConkie who had a special relationship with Christ evidenced in the books he wrote about the subject, his talks, and his final testimony, do we really understand what he is saying here? Is he really contradicting what Book of Mormon prophets are encouraging us towards or is he trying to teach us something that could ultimately bless us? I firmly believe in the latter having read almost everything he has ever written on the subject.

With respect, brother, the only thing Elder McConkie needed to say was this: I have seen Jesus Christ and He has ministered to me. He can and will minister to you, too. Instead we get a treatise, which he qualifies with his own credentials/a brief resume:

Now I sincerely hope that no one will imagine that I have in the slightest degree downgraded the Lord Jesus in the scheme of things. I have not done so. As far as I know there is not a man on earth who thinks more highly of him than I do. It just may be that I have preached more sermons, taught more doctrine, and written more words about the Lord Jesus Christ than any other man now living. I have ten large volumes in print, seven of which deal almost entirely with Christ, and the other three with him and his doctrines.

There is a difference between knowing all that has been written about Jesus Christ and knowing Jesus Christ. I am not going to say that He didn't rend the veil and see Jesus Christ, but he sure didn't say he did either. The reader can take from that what he will. In either case, it does not distract me from my own unfettered walk with Jesus Christ unencumbered by space taken up by anyone else between us. I hope it does not distract the reader from his or her own walk with the Lord.

I’m sure he would be saddened by that judgement most of all that you would label him a distraction from anyone’s personal walk with Jesus.

I apologize if I reacted harshly. I believe Elder McConkie to be a good man. I just really have issues with that talk, and I have a hard time reconciling its message with the doctrine I feel is taught plainly in the Book of Mormon, and with what the Spirit has taught me.

It pains me that the Doctrine of Christ is so misunderstood and misapplied as spelled out in the Book Of Mormon. It clearly tells us everything we need to know, plain as word can be, to obtain eternal life. Yet we do not read with the eyes of a child and let our "learnings of men" be our guide rather than the Spiirt. This in turn damns us. If only we were to approach the Book of Mormon with the eyes of a child, perhaps we would learn much more, for we are taught - become as a little child - then we begin to learn and to be learned is good - if we hearken to God.

2 Nephi 9:28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.
29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

marc wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 4:29 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 10:16 pm From one Elder McConkie who had a special relationship with Christ evidenced in the books he wrote about the subject, his talks, and his final testimony, do we really understand what he is saying here? Is he really contradicting what Book of Mormon prophets are encouraging us towards or is he trying to teach us something that could ultimately bless us? I firmly believe in the latter having read almost everything he has ever written on the subject.

With respect, brother, the only thing Elder McConkie needed to say was this: I have seen Jesus Christ and He has ministered to me. He can and will minister to you, too. Instead we get a treatise, which he qualifies with his own credentials/a brief resume:

Now I sincerely hope that no one will imagine that I have in the slightest degree downgraded the Lord Jesus in the scheme of things. I have not done so. As far as I know there is not a man on earth who thinks more highly of him than I do. It just may be that I have preached more sermons, taught more doctrine, and written more words about the Lord Jesus Christ than any other man now living. I have ten large volumes in print, seven of which deal almost entirely with Christ, and the other three with him and his doctrines.

There is a difference between knowing all that has been written about Jesus Christ and knowing Jesus Christ. I am not going to say that He didn't rend the veil and see Jesus Christ, but he sure didn't say he did either. The reader can take from that what he will. In either case, it does not distract me from my own unfettered walk with Jesus Christ unencumbered by space taken up by anyone else between us. I hope it does not distract the reader from his or her own walk with the Lord.

What is tragic is that though I have illustrated very clearly what Elder McConkie believed on the subject and that he is consistently supportive of a proper relationship with the Lord - in fact providing some of the most clear instruction on how it is done - what is tragic is that each person here that has judged him foully continues to do so. There is no effort to see that there have been errors in prior judgments. There is no effort to repent of wrong judgment of Elder McConkie. There is no charity to see that he is speaking of a legitimate issue of looking beyond the Marc There is no benefit of the doubt that maybe you folks have not understood the man properly and each persists in holding on to whatever degree of angst that is unfounded and inappropriate. Brian told me I was condescending earlier - I wonder if he recognizes what true condescension looks like.

Brlenox, I love Elder McConkie with perfect love. I have learned a lot from him over the decades. And if you and I can agree that he now resides with Jesus, it is because he is like Him and as such has a perfect love for me, too. I am now learning directly from Jesus Christ. It is as it should be.

It's always interesting how the OP's tend to wander off their original paths....

In getting back to the OP and in particular this quote:

Elder Oaks--- "I don't think we're going to get it like Paul did where an angel appeared to him, like Alma did. I've never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience. Yet everyone of us knows of a certainty the things that Alma knew."

Maybe it's just me and my simple mind, but I see this as people are not going to have the type of conversion of Alma the younger or Paul. They were both antagonists against the Church and it was an angel who had to put a stop to their destructive ways and put them on the conversion path. None of the 12 needed that type of conversion. That DOESN'T mean they have not had OTHER types of experiences?

Do you all believe that miracles/sacred experience are non-existent today just because the 12 (or other top Church leaders) don't share them?

I had this thought today as I was reading an OP posted by Kirtland concerning miracles at temple dedications. (which actually this doesn't have to do with a temple dedication but it still crossed my mind) Does anybody remember the April GC back in 1997 when they had a celebration of some sorts honoring the 150th anniversary of the Saints entering the Salt Lake Valley? Many of the talks in that conference were focused on those events. This is also when the Tabernacle Choir introduced their awesome song "Faith in Every Footstep". I remember the feelings I had during that conference; it was hard to contain my emotional experiences/feelings. My father was in the 70 at that time thus he was in attendance at the Tabernacle. He shared several amazing experiences that many of the 70 witnessed during that session. Without going into too much detail in light of President Oaks comment many of the 70 witnessed Angels in that conference.

One might say well they told each other, why not the world in general? Good question. Pearls before swine? Those that shared, shared with other 70 whom share same beliefs. My father shared with his family who also believe. It's the world in general that one must be cautious of? Maybe not just the world, but even to get up in GC and share something sacred, it is still being broadcast throughout the world via internet to those who would question and mock.

My simple 2 cents.

kittycat51 wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 10:43 am It's always interesting how the OP's tend to wander off their original paths....

In getting back to the OP and in particular this quote:

Elder Oaks--- "I don't think we're going to get it like Paul did where an angel appeared to him, like Alma did. I've never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience. Yet everyone of us knows of a certainty the things that Alma knew."

I had this thought today as I was reading an OP posted by Kirkland concerning miracles at temple dedications. (which actually this doesn't have to do with a temple dedication but it still crossed my mind) Does anybody remember the April GC back in 1997 when they had a celebration of some sorts honoring the 150th anniversary of the Saints entering the Salt Lake Valley? Many of the talks in that conference were focused on those events. This is also when the Tabernacle Choir introduced their awesome song "Faith in Every Footstep". I remember the feelings I had during that conference; it was hard to contain my emotional experiences/feelings. My father was in the 70 at that time thus he was in attendance at the Tabernacle. He shared several amazing experiences that many of the 70 witnessed during that session. Without going into too much detail in light of President Oaks comment many of the 70 witnessed Angels in that conference.

One might say well they told each other, why not the world in general? Good question. Pearls before swine? Those that shared, shared with other 70 whom share same beliefs. My father shared with his family who also believe. It's the world in general that one must be cautious of? Maybe not just the world, but even to get up in GC and share something sacred, it is still being broadcast throughout the world via internet to those who would question and mock.

My simple 2 cents.

Maybe it's just me and my simple mind, but I see this as people are not going to have the type of conversion of Alma the younger or Paul. They were both antagonists against the Church and it was an angel who had to put a stop to their destructive ways and put them on the conversion path. None of the 12 needed that type of conversion. That DOESN'T mean they have not had OTHER types of experiences?

The 12 did have this type of conversion, look at Acts 2. They are remarkably different following this event. Peter was not converted until after this event, even though prior to this event he had seen Christ cure the blind, raise the dead, cause the blind to see etc. I know he's specifically talking about Angels appearing, but this line of reasoning has extended(In other talks by General Authorities) to the types of experiences you see in Mosiah 4 and Helaman 5, where the people were full of inexplicable joy and the power of the Holy Ghost filled them completely and caused them to sing the song of redeeming love.

Look at Mosiah 4. It's the exact same type of event that you see in Acts 2 except it happened to the body of the church, a bunch of random people like you and I.

Do you all believe that miracles/sacred experience are non-existent today just because the 12 (or other top Church leaders) don't share them?

Not only do people not share them, many people(Including leaders) explicitly say that you do not need those types of experience and that they are reserved for "Special People" like Alma, which simply isn't true.

It pains me greatly when I hear people tell me that only "Some people" are meant to have these experiences. Do you really think that only the most wicked people have the most amazing experiences with God? Heaven Forbid! You can have an Alma/Saul/Peter experience, if you don't believe that then shed that unbelief, it'll be the first step to getting even closer to the Savior than you thought you could ever be!

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 9:42 pm Now here is an answer to a question which many saints have had. Weather or not it will be satisfactory to them, it is an answer. I have thought about why the Church leaders don't make some comments I am a bit surprised that they no longer make, and I have thought this is part of the answer. Some of us who study church history see quite a difference in things as they are done now. I do get a kick out of the fact that the Deseret News printed the story of Satan appearing to Logan Temple President Merrill back in the day. Nothing like that would ever happen now.http://www.moroni10.com/mormon_history/ ... devil.htmlEach General Conf. is essentially pretty much a pep talk and encouragement to keep the commandments. That's all good. I don't like it if I get the impression they bend to social pressure as well. Oh well, I am just a rank and file member of the church, who has not the same keys, but I have access to the spirit. I try to make righteous use of this gift. Now, the quote by Elder Oaks.
Of course apostles are also witnesses of Christ just like all members of the Church who have the gift of the Holy Ghost. This is because the mission of the Holy Ghost is to witness of the Father and the Son. In addition, while some early apostles and other members of the church have had the sublime spiritual experience of seeing the Savior and some have made a public record of this, in the circumstances of today we are counseled not to speak of our most sacred spiritual experiences, otherwise with modern technology that can broadcast something all over the world, a remark made in a sacred and a private setting can be said abroad in violation of the Savior's commandment not to cast our pearls before swine.
Here is the full transcript of the Boise Meeting.http://johnslds.blogspot.com/2015/06/fu ... -with.html

I was just reading from the come follow me lesson. This is what Jesus told his Apostles.

Mark 8 27-33

27 ¶ And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Cæsarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?

28 And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.

29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.

31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.

33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

The first comments I made on this thread were regarding the modern-day insinuation (this time by Elder Oaks) that the witness of the Holy Ghost is as great or greater than the powerful heavenly manifestations we read of in scripture, like those of Paul or Alma (or Mosiah 4-5, Acts 2, Helaman 5, and elsewhere). It appears to me that Elder Oaks, Elder Eyring, and many others imply that they possess the same type of testimony as the ancient prophets, without having had the same types of miraculous experiences. They do this by echoing the following words of Elder McConkie:

"It is true that the witness of the Holy Ghost is sure and absolute and that a man can know with a perfect knowledge, by the power of the Holy Ghost, that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God who was crucified for the sins of the world. This unshakeable certainty can rest in his soul even though he has not seen the face of his Lord. (The Promised Messiah, p. 592.)"

We laud Elder McConkie's "last testimony" and use it for evidence that he has seen the Savior. That's not what he said, that's just our assumption. What he has actually said is what I've just quoted here.

Joseph Smith says, "Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject."

The fact is none of us have heard any of the modern-day Brethren say that they have gazed into heaven or claim to have been ministered to by angels or Christ. I would argue that if they had gazed into heaven, or had these experiences, then they would likely change their position, given their new found knowledge. I believe they would likely urge us to go on and receive the same, the way Joseph, Nephi, Alma, and Moroni did.

I have no bad feelings towards any of our leaders, past or present. We are in this together and I love them. I do, however, feel an urgent need to understand how the precepts we are taught are measured against scriptural doctrine.

No matter how many books are written or how many testimonies are born, nor matter how sincere the messenger, as long as it appears that these things have "ceased", I will remain very very concerned about our state as a church. This especially concerns me because of the degree which we faun over and revere our leaders, who make no such claims to 1st hand experiences with the heavens, and seem to teach that seeking after such things is either not necessary or is "looking beyond the mark".

Stahura wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 11:02 am

kittycat51 wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 10:43 am It's always interesting how the OP's tend to wander off their original paths....

In getting back to the OP and in particular this quote:

Elder Oaks--- "I don't think we're going to get it like Paul did where an angel appeared to him, like Alma did. I've never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience. Yet everyone of us knows of a certainty the things that Alma knew."

I had this thought today as I was reading an OP posted by Kirkland concerning miracles at temple dedications. (which actually this doesn't have to do with a temple dedication but it still crossed my mind) Does anybody remember the April GC back in 1997 when they had a celebration of some sorts honoring the 150th anniversary of the Saints entering the Salt Lake Valley? Many of the talks in that conference were focused on those events. This is also when the Tabernacle Choir introduced their awesome song "Faith in Every Footstep". I remember the feelings I had during that conference; it was hard to contain my emotional experiences/feelings. My father was in the 70 at that time thus he was in attendance at the Tabernacle. He shared several amazing experiences that many of the 70 witnessed during that session. Without going into too much detail in light of President Oaks comment many of the 70 witnessed Angels in that conference.

One might say well they told each other, why not the world in general? Good question. Pearls before swine? Those that shared, shared with other 70 whom share same beliefs. My father shared with his family who also believe. It's the world in general that one must be cautious of? Maybe not just the world, but even to get up in GC and share something sacred, it is still being broadcast throughout the world via internet to those who would question and mock.

My simple 2 cents.

Maybe it's just me and my simple mind, but I see this as people are not going to have the type of conversion of Alma the younger or Paul. They were both antagonists against the Church and it was an angel who had to put a stop to their destructive ways and put them on the conversion path. None of the 12 needed that type of conversion. That DOESN'T mean they have not had OTHER types of experiences?

The 12 did have this type of conversion, look at Acts 2. They are remarkably different following this event. Peter was not converted until after this event, even though prior to this event he had seen Christ cure the blind, raise the dead, cause the blind to see etc. I know he's specifically talking about Angels appearing, but this line of reasoning has extended(In other talks by General Authorities) to the types of experiences you see in Mosiah 4 and Helaman 5, where the people were full of inexplicable joy and the power of the Holy Ghost filled them completely and caused them to sing the song of redeeming love.

Look at Mosiah 4. It's the exact same type of event that you see in Acts 2 except it happened to the body of the church, a bunch of random people like you and I.

Do you all believe that miracles/sacred experience are non-existent today just because the 12 (or other top Church leaders) don't share them?

Not only do people not share them, many people(Including leaders) explicitly say that you do not need those types of experience and that they are reserved for "Special People" like Alma, which simply isn't true.

It pains me greatly when I hear people tell me that only "Some people" are meant to have these experiences. Do you really think that only the most wicked people have the most amazing experiences with God? Heaven Forbid! You can have an Alma/Saul/Peter experience, if you don't believe that then shed that unbelief, it'll be the first step to getting even closer to the Savior than you thought you could ever be!

No pain with President Nelson in that department:

“When you spiritually stretch beyond anything you have ever done before, then His power will flow into you. And then you will understand the deep meaning of words we sing in the hymn “The Spirit of God”:
The Lord is extending the Saints’ understanding. …
The knowledge and power of God are expanding;
The veil o’er the earth is beginning to burst.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is filled with His power, which is available to every earnestly seeking daughter or son of God. It is my testimony that when we draw His power into our lives, both He and we will rejoice.”

And

“I urge you to stretch beyond your current spiritual ability to receive personal revelation, for the Lord has promised that “if thou shalt seek, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things--that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal.”

Oh, there is so much more that your Father in Heaven wants you to know. As Elder Neal A. Maxwell taught, “To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, it is clear that the Father and the Son are giving away the secrets of the universe!”

Both in conference to the entire body of the church.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 11:48 am

Stahura wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 11:02 am

kittycat51 wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 10:43 am It's always interesting how the OP's tend to wander off their original paths....

In getting back to the OP and in particular this quote:

Elder Oaks--- "I don't think we're going to get it like Paul did where an angel appeared to him, like Alma did. I've never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience. Yet everyone of us knows of a certainty the things that Alma knew."

I had this thought today as I was reading an OP posted by Kirkland concerning miracles at temple dedications. (which actually this doesn't have to do with a temple dedication but it still crossed my mind) Does anybody remember the April GC back in 1997 when they had a celebration of some sorts honoring the 150th anniversary of the Saints entering the Salt Lake Valley? Many of the talks in that conference were focused on those events. This is also when the Tabernacle Choir introduced their awesome song "Faith in Every Footstep". I remember the feelings I had during that conference; it was hard to contain my emotional experiences/feelings. My father was in the 70 at that time thus he was in attendance at the Tabernacle. He shared several amazing experiences that many of the 70 witnessed during that session. Without going into too much detail in light of President Oaks comment many of the 70 witnessed Angels in that conference.

One might say well they told each other, why not the world in general? Good question. Pearls before swine? Those that shared, shared with other 70 whom share same beliefs. My father shared with his family who also believe. It's the world in general that one must be cautious of? Maybe not just the world, but even to get up in GC and share something sacred, it is still being broadcast throughout the world via internet to those who would question and mock.

My simple 2 cents.

Maybe it's just me and my simple mind, but I see this as people are not going to have the type of conversion of Alma the younger or Paul. They were both antagonists against the Church and it was an angel who had to put a stop to their destructive ways and put them on the conversion path. None of the 12 needed that type of conversion. That DOESN'T mean they have not had OTHER types of experiences?

The 12 did have this type of conversion, look at Acts 2. They are remarkably different following this event. Peter was not converted until after this event, even though prior to this event he had seen Christ cure the blind, raise the dead, cause the blind to see etc. I know he's specifically talking about Angels appearing, but this line of reasoning has extended(In other talks by General Authorities) to the types of experiences you see in Mosiah 4 and Helaman 5, where the people were full of inexplicable joy and the power of the Holy Ghost filled them completely and caused them to sing the song of redeeming love.

Look at Mosiah 4. It's the exact same type of event that you see in Acts 2 except it happened to the body of the church, a bunch of random people like you and I.

Do you all believe that miracles/sacred experience are non-existent today just because the 12 (or other top Church leaders) don't share them?

Not only do people not share them, many people(Including leaders) explicitly say that you do not need those types of experience and that they are reserved for "Special People" like Alma, which simply isn't true.

It pains me greatly when I hear people tell me that only "Some people" are meant to have these experiences. Do you really think that only the most wicked people have the most amazing experiences with God? Heaven Forbid! You can have an Alma/Saul/Peter experience, if you don't believe that then shed that unbelief, it'll be the first step to getting even closer to the Savior than you thought you could ever be!

No pain with President Nelson in that department:

“When you spiritually stretch beyond anything you have ever done before, then His power will flow into you. And then you will understand the deep meaning of words we sing in the hymn “The Spirit of God”:
The Lord is extending the Saints’ understanding. …
The knowledge and power of God are expanding;
The veil o’er the earth is beginning to burst.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is filled with His power, which is available to every earnestly seeking daughter or son of God. It is my testimony that when we draw His power into our lives, both He and we will rejoice.”

And

“I urge you to stretch beyond your current spiritual ability to receive personal revelation, for the Lord has promised that “if thou shalt seek, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things--that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal.”

Oh, there is so much more that your Father in Heaven wants you to know. As Elder Neal A. Maxwell taught, “To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, it is clear that the Father and the Son are giving away the secrets of the universe!”

Both in conference to the entire body of the church.

I’ve quoted him elsewhere for similar things. I don’t paint them all with the same brush. I appreciate many of the things that President Nelson says, that doesn’t mean that other leaders haven’t discouraged members from doing what Nelson is encouraging members to do(although there are stories of Nelson ive read that suggest his idea of these “magnificent revelations” pale in comparison to the things we are discussing in this thread).