LDS Freedom Forum

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:50 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:31 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:28 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:10 pm All good counsel, until we become entrenched in the idea that certain voices can never be errant, or that we can undoubtedly trust certain people by virtue of their position. Any person or group can fall.

Likewise, the notion that the church today must be "true and living" because Joseph was a prophet, God lives, and the Book of Mormon is the true word of God is not a reasonable assumption. This doesn't mean the Church today can't be "true and living". I'm merely saying that when a large portion of our testimony of today's church follows this logic, then we are on shaky ground. We are always one generation away from apostasy, and no one has ever been given a guarantee from God that they are immune.

We must come to Christ ourselves, plant his. his word deep into our hearts (the seed from Alma 32) or grasp firmly to the iron rod (his word and Spirit from Nephi's teachings). This word, his law, and our connection to him must become sealed on our hearts and rid us of all desire to do evil. Thus born of the Spirit ourselves, we can be empowered to follow the Holy Ghost and stop outsourcing our connection to God to others.

Descend from the clouds of ambiguity and generalization. Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk. Where's the beef in this burger you keep serving up?

As well no one has said or advocated any differently that you need to come unto Christ but I am sound and secure that you will not do so but that you understand your proper relationship in sustaining his chosen leaders instead of denigrating and minimalizing their role in the process of coming unto Christ.

John the Baptist had the proper and humble perspective of himself. "I must decrease. He must increase." A true messenger will say he, the messenger, doesn't matter. It's Christ that matters. A true messenger won't accept fame, fortune, accolades, money, etc. He will RUN from such temptations. "Satan, get thee hence!" will be the way the true messenger will handle such temptations of the devil.

So you ask for specifics, where a man who purports to be a prophet leads us astray and that puts salvation at risk? Where's the beef, you ask?

The list is very, very long, and unpleasant to rehearse, but to grant your wish I will name a few things that are in fact indisputable.

How many of the "true" messengers (the ones who purport to be sent by God) among the Brethren have run from the perks, money, stipends, insurance, company cars, fame, perks, paid vacations, salary, stocks in many Church-owned and operated corporations, land, vacation homes, etc., etc.?

How many of these men proclaim to be lay ministers, working not for filthy lucre? How many eschew the publicity?

Zero is the answer.

How many are famous and popular in the eyes of the world? ALL of them. How many draw salary from the Church? All.

In other words, what evidence is there that they are not "hirelings"? Christ gave a parable about the hireling, didn't He?

If they are hirelings, then they aren't true. What evidence do they have which indicates they are "sent" by God? None. All they do is quote themselves over and over and state incessantly ONE SINGULAR thing --- their "keys". "We have the keys". Such is what the Catholics did and do. KEYS, KEYS, KEYS! At one point, in the early 1400's, if I recall, there were THREE popes! Yes 3! They all claimed to have the "authority" of God. Back then (and probably today), the church (meaning, the Holy Roman Catholic Church) was the largest land owner in Europe! Wealth and riches beyond imagination belonged to the church.

What is different between them and the Brethren who are on payroll?

Is there transparency? NONE whatsoever. That lack of transparency should be enough of a clue to wake even the most naive member up, because there simply isn't a good explanation as to why there's no transparency to the financial books of the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So you ask a "you've got to be kidding me" question. I've shared how the vineyard has become corrupted. It's money and power and fame, all temptations which Christ suffered in the desert. These hirelings have not turned the fame and fortune down. They willingly soak it up.

And a sign they lead us astray? They constantly quote each other and say they can't lead us astray, and exhort us to stay on the Good Ship Zion (paying our tribute to their corporation), alleging the Church is the kingdom of God and Zion when that couldn't be farther from the truth. The kingdom of God is real. Zion will be real. But they don't have a clue what it is, and frankly, like hirelings, do not care. Bottom line profits is what matters to them.

If it doesn't matter to them? Then why doesn't even ONE of them refuse the money and call out the institution for the corruption? Because they have made their choice. Doing that would require one to have the courage of Alma in a King Noah's court. That man would be openly persecuted and his reputation utterly destroyed, if he actually wouldn't be murdered first.

The beautiful thing is that the Truth does exist, and is out there for all to avail themselves of. God is no respecter of persons. He will draw nigh unto you if you draw nigh unto Him, and forsake the idolatry of the Brethren.

Let me end with sharing a testimony shared by a sister in the ward I visited this past Sunday. She, without the least bit of awareness of her cultlike idolatry said the following, and I paraphrase:

I testify we have a living prophet today, who will not and cannot lead us astray. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can only wear dresses down to your ankles," then I would wear a dress down to my ankles. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can now wear pants to Church," then I would wear pants to Church. Whatever he says, that will I do, without question or concern. I know President Nelson loves us and is the mouthpiece for God, and we should follow him.

That was the "Jim Jones" esque cult speech everyone in that sacrament meeting heard just two days ago. It was disgusting. How embarrassing! How grossly wicked and adulterous! And yet, she said she "KNEW" what she said to be true.

I wanted to quote this to her, but no doubt she would not and could not "hear" the message, but I'll quote it for somebody here who may benefit:

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another....

46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.

47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.

My question was "Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk." If any of what you said was truly an issue wherein have you been put at risk. Who removed your agency to be obedient? Who led you astray - other than yourself?

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 4:19 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:50 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:31 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:28 pm

Descend from the clouds of ambiguity and generalization. Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk. Where's the beef in this burger you keep serving up?

As well no one has said or advocated any differently that you need to come unto Christ but I am sound and secure that you will not do so but that you understand your proper relationship in sustaining his chosen leaders instead of denigrating and minimalizing their role in the process of coming unto Christ.

John the Baptist had the proper and humble perspective of himself. "I must decrease. He must increase." A true messenger will say he, the messenger, doesn't matter. It's Christ that matters. A true messenger won't accept fame, fortune, accolades, money, etc. He will RUN from such temptations. "Satan, get thee hence!" will be the way the true messenger will handle such temptations of the devil.

So you ask for specifics, where a man who purports to be a prophet leads us astray and that puts salvation at risk? Where's the beef, you ask?

The list is very, very long, and unpleasant to rehearse, but to grant your wish I will name a few things that are in fact indisputable.

How many of the "true" messengers (the ones who purport to be sent by God) among the Brethren have run from the perks, money, stipends, insurance, company cars, fame, perks, paid vacations, salary, stocks in many Church-owned and operated corporations, land, vacation homes, etc., etc.?

How many of these men proclaim to be lay ministers, working not for filthy lucre? How many eschew the publicity?

Zero is the answer.

How many are famous and popular in the eyes of the world? ALL of them. How many draw salary from the Church? All.

In other words, what evidence is there that they are not "hirelings"? Christ gave a parable about the hireling, didn't He?

If they are hirelings, then they aren't true. What evidence do they have which indicates they are "sent" by God? None. All they do is quote themselves over and over and state incessantly ONE SINGULAR thing --- their "keys". "We have the keys". Such is what the Catholics did and do. KEYS, KEYS, KEYS! At one point, in the early 1400's, if I recall, there were THREE popes! Yes 3! They all claimed to have the "authority" of God. Back then (and probably today), the church (meaning, the Holy Roman Catholic Church) was the largest land owner in Europe! Wealth and riches beyond imagination belonged to the church.

What is different between them and the Brethren who are on payroll?

Is there transparency? NONE whatsoever. That lack of transparency should be enough of a clue to wake even the most naive member up, because there simply isn't a good explanation as to why there's no transparency to the financial books of the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So you ask a "you've got to be kidding me" question. I've shared how the vineyard has become corrupted. It's money and power and fame, all temptations which Christ suffered in the desert. These hirelings have not turned the fame and fortune down. They willingly soak it up.

And a sign they lead us astray? They constantly quote each other and say they can't lead us astray, and exhort us to stay on the Good Ship Zion (paying our tribute to their corporation), alleging the Church is the kingdom of God and Zion when that couldn't be farther from the truth. The kingdom of God is real. Zion will be real. But they don't have a clue what it is, and frankly, like hirelings, do not care. Bottom line profits is what matters to them.

If it doesn't matter to them? Then why doesn't even ONE of them refuse the money and call out the institution for the corruption? Because they have made their choice. Doing that would require one to have the courage of Alma in a King Noah's court. That man would be openly persecuted and his reputation utterly destroyed, if he actually wouldn't be murdered first.

The beautiful thing is that the Truth does exist, and is out there for all to avail themselves of. God is no respecter of persons. He will draw nigh unto you if you draw nigh unto Him, and forsake the idolatry of the Brethren.

Let me end with sharing a testimony shared by a sister in the ward I visited this past Sunday. She, without the least bit of awareness of her cultlike idolatry said the following, and I paraphrase:

I testify we have a living prophet today, who will not and cannot lead us astray. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can only wear dresses down to your ankles," then I would wear a dress down to my ankles. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can now wear pants to Church," then I would wear pants to Church. Whatever he says, that will I do, without question or concern. I know President Nelson loves us and is the mouthpiece for God, and we should follow him.

That was the "Jim Jones" esque cult speech everyone in that sacrament meeting heard just two days ago. It was disgusting. How embarrassing! How grossly wicked and adulterous! And yet, she said she "KNEW" what she said to be true.

I wanted to quote this to her, but no doubt she would not and could not "hear" the message, but I'll quote it for somebody here who may benefit:

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another....

46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.

47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.

My question was "Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk." If any of what you said was truly an issue wherein have you been put at risk. Who removed your agency to be obedient? Who led you astray - other than yourself?

I've written all through this thread how we've been lead astray into obedience and idolatry to our church and leaders, and away from Christ no longer trusting on him and his power. Feel free to pick any points I've made and pick them apart as you choose, hopefully staying inline with the topic of the thread. But let's face it, you and I are worlds apart here, though I have spent my entire adult life thinking the way you do.

I testify we have a living prophet today, who will not and cannot lead us astray. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can only wear dresses down to your ankles," then I would wear a dress down to my ankles. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can now wear pants to Church," then I would wear pants to Church. Whatever he says, that will I do, without question or concern. I know President Nelson loves us and is the mouthpiece for God, and we should follow him.

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 4:10 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:50 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:31 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:28 pm

Descend from the clouds of ambiguity and generalization. Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk. Where's the beef in this burger you keep serving up?

As well no one has said or advocated any differently that you need to come unto Christ but I am sound and secure that you will not do so but that you understand your proper relationship in sustaining his chosen leaders instead of denigrating and minimalizing their role in the process of coming unto Christ.

John the Baptist had the proper and humble perspective of himself. "I must decrease. He must increase." A true messenger will say he, the messenger, doesn't matter. It's Christ that matters. A true messenger won't accept fame, fortune, accolades, money, etc. He will RUN from such temptations. "Satan, get thee hence!" will be the way the true messenger will handle such temptations of the devil.

So you ask for specifics, where a man who purports to be a prophet leads us astray and that puts salvation at risk? Where's the beef, you ask?

The list is very, very long, and unpleasant to rehearse, but to grant your wish I will name a few things that are in fact indisputable.

How many of the "true" messengers (the ones who purport to be sent by God) among the Brethren have run from the perks, money, stipends, insurance, company cars, fame, perks, paid vacations, salary, stocks in many Church-owned and operated corporations, land, vacation homes, etc., etc.?

How many of these men proclaim to be lay ministers, working not for filthy lucre? How many eschew the publicity?

Zero is the answer.

How many are famous and popular in the eyes of the world? ALL of them. How many draw salary from the Church? All.

In other words, what evidence is there that they are not "hirelings"? Christ gave a parable about the hireling, didn't He?

If they are hirelings, then they aren't true. What evidence do they have which indicates they are "sent" by God? None. All they do is quote themselves over and over and state incessantly ONE SINGULAR thing --- their "keys". "We have the keys". Such is what the Catholics did and do. KEYS, KEYS, KEYS! At one point, in the early 1400's, if I recall, there were THREE popes! Yes 3! They all claimed to have the "authority" of God. Back then (and probably today), the church (meaning, the Holy Roman Catholic Church) was the largest land owner in Europe! Wealth and riches beyond imagination belonged to the church.

What is different between them and the Brethren who are on payroll?

Is there transparency? NONE whatsoever. That lack of transparency should be enough of a clue to wake even the most naive member up, because there simply isn't a good explanation as to why there's no transparency to the financial books of the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So you ask a "you've got to be kidding me" question. I've shared how the vineyard has become corrupted. It's money and power and fame, all temptations which Christ suffered in the desert. These hirelings have not turned the fame and fortune down. They willingly soak it up.

And a sign they lead us astray? They constantly quote each other and say they can't lead us astray, and exhort us to stay on the Good Ship Zion (paying our tribute to their corporation), alleging the Church is the kingdom of God and Zion when that couldn't be farther from the truth. The kingdom of God is real. Zion will be real. But they don't have a clue what it is, and frankly, like hirelings, do not care. Bottom line profits is what matters to them.

If it doesn't matter to them? Then why doesn't even ONE of them refuse the money and call out the institution for the corruption? Because they have made their choice. Doing that would require one to have the courage of Alma in a King Noah's court. That man would be openly persecuted and his reputation utterly destroyed, if he actually wouldn't be murdered first.

The beautiful thing is that the Truth does exist, and is out there for all to avail themselves of. God is no respecter of persons. He will draw nigh unto you if you draw nigh unto Him, and forsake the idolatry of the Brethren.

Let me end with sharing a testimony shared by a sister in the ward I visited this past Sunday. She, without the least bit of awareness of her cultlike idolatry said the following, and I paraphrase:

I testify we have a living prophet today, who will not and cannot lead us astray. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can only wear dresses down to your ankles," then I would wear a dress down to my ankles. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can now wear pants to Church," then I would wear pants to Church. Whatever he says, that will I do, without question or concern. I know President Nelson loves us and is the mouthpiece for God, and we should follow him.

That was the "Jim Jones" esque cult speech everyone in that sacrament meeting heard just two days ago. It was disgusting. How embarrassing! How grossly wicked and adulterous! And yet, she said she "KNEW" what she said to be true.

I wanted to quote this to her, but no doubt she would not and could not "hear" the message, but I'll quote it for somebody here who may benefit:

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another....

46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.

47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.

My question was "Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk." If any of what you said was truly an issue wherein have you been put at risk. Who removed your agency to be obedient? Who led you astray - other than yourself?

The Brethren teach ALL.THE.TIME and I mean incessantly "All is well in Zion." This is their mantra. There's no call to repentance that causes the people to cast them out and call them heretics. Ask Lehi how the people react when a call to repentance is given!

I believe I answered your question. The "all is well in Zion" mantra leads us and led me astray. I can't blame them 100%, but they were a factor in me getting complacent. After all, I was on the Good Ship Zion. Married in the temple. Ordinance worker. Faithful in serving in the Church. Tithe payer. Temple recommend holder. 100% home teacher. Check. Check. Check. I can go on down the list and check all the boxes. Why do I do the things on the checklist? Because if I do, then my salvation is assured! That's why.

But the Lectures on Faith teach otherwise, don't they?!?!?!?!

And guess what happened to those doctrinal lectures that explain so clearly the way of salvation? The Brethren tossed them out on their ear. Can't have such "hard" doctrine in the Church, can we, they reasoned among themselves. It's not popular, and therefore WE can't be popular in the eyes of the world

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 4:10 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:50 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:31 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:28 pm

Descend from the clouds of ambiguity and generalization. Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk. Where's the beef in this burger you keep serving up?

As well no one has said or advocated any differently that you need to come unto Christ but I am sound and secure that you will not do so but that you understand your proper relationship in sustaining his chosen leaders instead of denigrating and minimalizing their role in the process of coming unto Christ.

John the Baptist had the proper and humble perspective of himself. "I must decrease. He must increase." A true messenger will say he, the messenger, doesn't matter. It's Christ that matters. A true messenger won't accept fame, fortune, accolades, money, etc. He will RUN from such temptations. "Satan, get thee hence!" will be the way the true messenger will handle such temptations of the devil.

So you ask for specifics, where a man who purports to be a prophet leads us astray and that puts salvation at risk? Where's the beef, you ask?

The list is very, very long, and unpleasant to rehearse, but to grant your wish I will name a few things that are in fact indisputable.

How many of the "true" messengers (the ones who purport to be sent by God) among the Brethren have run from the perks, money, stipends, insurance, company cars, fame, perks, paid vacations, salary, stocks in many Church-owned and operated corporations, land, vacation homes, etc., etc.?

How many of these men proclaim to be lay ministers, working not for filthy lucre? How many eschew the publicity?

Zero is the answer.

How many are famous and popular in the eyes of the world? ALL of them. How many draw salary from the Church? All.

In other words, what evidence is there that they are not "hirelings"? Christ gave a parable about the hireling, didn't He?

If they are hirelings, then they aren't true. What evidence do they have which indicates they are "sent" by God? None. All they do is quote themselves over and over and state incessantly ONE SINGULAR thing --- their "keys". "We have the keys". Such is what the Catholics did and do. KEYS, KEYS, KEYS! At one point, in the early 1400's, if I recall, there were THREE popes! Yes 3! They all claimed to have the "authority" of God. Back then (and probably today), the church (meaning, the Holy Roman Catholic Church) was the largest land owner in Europe! Wealth and riches beyond imagination belonged to the church.

What is different between them and the Brethren who are on payroll?

Is there transparency? NONE whatsoever. That lack of transparency should be enough of a clue to wake even the most naive member up, because there simply isn't a good explanation as to why there's no transparency to the financial books of the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So you ask a "you've got to be kidding me" question. I've shared how the vineyard has become corrupted. It's money and power and fame, all temptations which Christ suffered in the desert. These hirelings have not turned the fame and fortune down. They willingly soak it up.

And a sign they lead us astray? They constantly quote each other and say they can't lead us astray, and exhort us to stay on the Good Ship Zion (paying our tribute to their corporation), alleging the Church is the kingdom of God and Zion when that couldn't be farther from the truth. The kingdom of God is real. Zion will be real. But they don't have a clue what it is, and frankly, like hirelings, do not care. Bottom line profits is what matters to them.

If it doesn't matter to them? Then why doesn't even ONE of them refuse the money and call out the institution for the corruption? Because they have made their choice. Doing that would require one to have the courage of Alma in a King Noah's court. That man would be openly persecuted and his reputation utterly destroyed, if he actually wouldn't be murdered first.

The beautiful thing is that the Truth does exist, and is out there for all to avail themselves of. God is no respecter of persons. He will draw nigh unto you if you draw nigh unto Him, and forsake the idolatry of the Brethren.

Let me end with sharing a testimony shared by a sister in the ward I visited this past Sunday. She, without the least bit of awareness of her cultlike idolatry said the following, and I paraphrase:

I testify we have a living prophet today, who will not and cannot lead us astray. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can only wear dresses down to your ankles," then I would wear a dress down to my ankles. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can now wear pants to Church," then I would wear pants to Church. Whatever he says, that will I do, without question or concern. I know President Nelson loves us and is the mouthpiece for God, and we should follow him.

That was the "Jim Jones" esque cult speech everyone in that sacrament meeting heard just two days ago. It was disgusting. How embarrassing! How grossly wicked and adulterous! And yet, she said she "KNEW" what she said to be true.

I wanted to quote this to her, but no doubt she would not and could not "hear" the message, but I'll quote it for somebody here who may benefit:

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another....

46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.

47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.

My question was "Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk." If any of what you said was truly an issue wherein have you been put at risk. Who removed your agency to be obedient? Who led you astray - other than yourself?

The Brethren teach ALL.THE.TIME and I mean incessantly "All is well in Zion." This is their mantra. There's no call to repentance that causes the people to cast them out and call them heretics. Ask Lehi how the people react when a call to repentance is given!

I believe I answered your question. The "all is well in Zion" mantra leads us and led me astray. I can't blame them 100%, but they were a factor in me getting complacent. After all, I was on the Good Ship Zion. Married in the temple. Ordinance worker. Faithful in serving in the Church. Tithe payer. Temple recommend holder. 100% home teacher. Check. Check. Check. I can go on down the list and check all the boxes. Why do I do the things on the checklist? Because if I do, then my salvation is assured! That's why.

But the Lectures on Faith teach otherwise, don't they?!?!?!?!

And guess what happened to those doctrinal lectures that explain so clearly the way of salvation? The Brethren tossed them out on their ear. Can't have such "hard" doctrine in the Church, can we, they reasoned among themselves. It's not popular, and therefore WE can't be popular in the eyes of the world

Well, brethren, in like manner, I fear that there are too many men who have been given the authority of the priesthood but who lack priesthood power because the flow of power has been blocked by sins such as laziness, dishonesty, pride, immorality, or preoccupation with things of the world....

I fear that too many have sadly surrendered their agency to the adversary and are saying by their conduct, “I care more about satisfying my own desires than I do about bearing the Savior’s power to bless others.”

I fear, brethren, that some among us may one day wake up and realize what power in the priesthood really is and face the deep regret that they spent far more time seeking power over others or power at work than learning to exercise fully the power of God.4 President George Albert Smith taught that “we are not here to while away the hours of this life and then pass to a sphere of exaltation; but we are here to qualify ourselves day by day for the positions that our Father expects us to fill hereafter.”

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 4:30 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 4:19 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:50 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:31 pm

John the Baptist had the proper and humble perspective of himself. "I must decrease. He must increase." A true messenger will say he, the messenger, doesn't matter. It's Christ that matters. A true messenger won't accept fame, fortune, accolades, money, etc. He will RUN from such temptations. "Satan, get thee hence!" will be the way the true messenger will handle such temptations of the devil.

So you ask for specifics, where a man who purports to be a prophet leads us astray and that puts salvation at risk? Where's the beef, you ask?

The list is very, very long, and unpleasant to rehearse, but to grant your wish I will name a few things that are in fact indisputable.

How many of the "true" messengers (the ones who purport to be sent by God) among the Brethren have run from the perks, money, stipends, insurance, company cars, fame, perks, paid vacations, salary, stocks in many Church-owned and operated corporations, land, vacation homes, etc., etc.?

How many of these men proclaim to be lay ministers, working not for filthy lucre? How many eschew the publicity?

Zero is the answer.

How many are famous and popular in the eyes of the world? ALL of them. How many draw salary from the Church? All.

In other words, what evidence is there that they are not "hirelings"? Christ gave a parable about the hireling, didn't He?

If they are hirelings, then they aren't true. What evidence do they have which indicates they are "sent" by God? None. All they do is quote themselves over and over and state incessantly ONE SINGULAR thing --- their "keys". "We have the keys". Such is what the Catholics did and do. KEYS, KEYS, KEYS! At one point, in the early 1400's, if I recall, there were THREE popes! Yes 3! They all claimed to have the "authority" of God. Back then (and probably today), the church (meaning, the Holy Roman Catholic Church) was the largest land owner in Europe! Wealth and riches beyond imagination belonged to the church.

What is different between them and the Brethren who are on payroll?

Is there transparency? NONE whatsoever. That lack of transparency should be enough of a clue to wake even the most naive member up, because there simply isn't a good explanation as to why there's no transparency to the financial books of the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So you ask a "you've got to be kidding me" question. I've shared how the vineyard has become corrupted. It's money and power and fame, all temptations which Christ suffered in the desert. These hirelings have not turned the fame and fortune down. They willingly soak it up.

And a sign they lead us astray? They constantly quote each other and say they can't lead us astray, and exhort us to stay on the Good Ship Zion (paying our tribute to their corporation), alleging the Church is the kingdom of God and Zion when that couldn't be farther from the truth. The kingdom of God is real. Zion will be real. But they don't have a clue what it is, and frankly, like hirelings, do not care. Bottom line profits is what matters to them.

If it doesn't matter to them? Then why doesn't even ONE of them refuse the money and call out the institution for the corruption? Because they have made their choice. Doing that would require one to have the courage of Alma in a King Noah's court. That man would be openly persecuted and his reputation utterly destroyed, if he actually wouldn't be murdered first.

The beautiful thing is that the Truth does exist, and is out there for all to avail themselves of. God is no respecter of persons. He will draw nigh unto you if you draw nigh unto Him, and forsake the idolatry of the Brethren.

Let me end with sharing a testimony shared by a sister in the ward I visited this past Sunday. She, without the least bit of awareness of her cultlike idolatry said the following, and I paraphrase:



That was the "Jim Jones" esque cult speech everyone in that sacrament meeting heard just two days ago. It was disgusting. How embarrassing! How grossly wicked and adulterous! And yet, she said she "KNEW" what she said to be true.

I wanted to quote this to her, but no doubt she would not and could not "hear" the message, but I'll quote it for somebody here who may benefit:

My question was "Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk." If any of what you said was truly an issue wherein have you been put at risk. Who removed your agency to be obedient? Who led you astray - other than yourself?

I've written all through this thread how we've been lead astray into obedience and idolatry to our church and leaders, and away from Christ no longer trusting on him and his power. Feel free to pick any points I've made and pick them apart as you choose, hopefully staying inline with the topic of the thread. But let's face it, you and I are worlds apart here, though I have spent my entire adult life thinking the way you do.

The comment you made above about being led astray into obedience and idolatry to our church and leaders cannot be better illustrated then with this first-hand account I shared above:

Let me end with sharing a testimony shared by a sister in the ward I visited this past Sunday. She, without the least bit of awareness of her cultlike idolatry said the following, and I paraphrase:

I testify we have a living prophet today, who will not and cannot lead us astray. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can only wear dresses down to your ankles," then I would wear a dress down to my ankles. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can now wear pants to Church," then I would wear pants to Church. Whatever he says, that will I do, without question or concern. I know President Nelson loves us and is the mouthpiece for God, and we should follow him.

That was the "Jim Jones" esque cult speech everyone in that sacrament meeting heard just two days ago. It was disgusting. How embarrassing! How grossly wicked and adulterous! And yet, she said she "KNEW" what she said to be true.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 4:38 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 4:10 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:50 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:31 pm

John the Baptist had the proper and humble perspective of himself. "I must decrease. He must increase." A true messenger will say he, the messenger, doesn't matter. It's Christ that matters. A true messenger won't accept fame, fortune, accolades, money, etc. He will RUN from such temptations. "Satan, get thee hence!" will be the way the true messenger will handle such temptations of the devil.

So you ask for specifics, where a man who purports to be a prophet leads us astray and that puts salvation at risk? Where's the beef, you ask?

The list is very, very long, and unpleasant to rehearse, but to grant your wish I will name a few things that are in fact indisputable.

How many of the "true" messengers (the ones who purport to be sent by God) among the Brethren have run from the perks, money, stipends, insurance, company cars, fame, perks, paid vacations, salary, stocks in many Church-owned and operated corporations, land, vacation homes, etc., etc.?

How many of these men proclaim to be lay ministers, working not for filthy lucre? How many eschew the publicity?

Zero is the answer.

How many are famous and popular in the eyes of the world? ALL of them. How many draw salary from the Church? All.

In other words, what evidence is there that they are not "hirelings"? Christ gave a parable about the hireling, didn't He?

If they are hirelings, then they aren't true. What evidence do they have which indicates they are "sent" by God? None. All they do is quote themselves over and over and state incessantly ONE SINGULAR thing --- their "keys". "We have the keys". Such is what the Catholics did and do. KEYS, KEYS, KEYS! At one point, in the early 1400's, if I recall, there were THREE popes! Yes 3! They all claimed to have the "authority" of God. Back then (and probably today), the church (meaning, the Holy Roman Catholic Church) was the largest land owner in Europe! Wealth and riches beyond imagination belonged to the church.

What is different between them and the Brethren who are on payroll?

Is there transparency? NONE whatsoever. That lack of transparency should be enough of a clue to wake even the most naive member up, because there simply isn't a good explanation as to why there's no transparency to the financial books of the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So you ask a "you've got to be kidding me" question. I've shared how the vineyard has become corrupted. It's money and power and fame, all temptations which Christ suffered in the desert. These hirelings have not turned the fame and fortune down. They willingly soak it up.

And a sign they lead us astray? They constantly quote each other and say they can't lead us astray, and exhort us to stay on the Good Ship Zion (paying our tribute to their corporation), alleging the Church is the kingdom of God and Zion when that couldn't be farther from the truth. The kingdom of God is real. Zion will be real. But they don't have a clue what it is, and frankly, like hirelings, do not care. Bottom line profits is what matters to them.

If it doesn't matter to them? Then why doesn't even ONE of them refuse the money and call out the institution for the corruption? Because they have made their choice. Doing that would require one to have the courage of Alma in a King Noah's court. That man would be openly persecuted and his reputation utterly destroyed, if he actually wouldn't be murdered first.

The beautiful thing is that the Truth does exist, and is out there for all to avail themselves of. God is no respecter of persons. He will draw nigh unto you if you draw nigh unto Him, and forsake the idolatry of the Brethren.

Let me end with sharing a testimony shared by a sister in the ward I visited this past Sunday. She, without the least bit of awareness of her cultlike idolatry said the following, and I paraphrase:



That was the "Jim Jones" esque cult speech everyone in that sacrament meeting heard just two days ago. It was disgusting. How embarrassing! How grossly wicked and adulterous! And yet, she said she "KNEW" what she said to be true.

I wanted to quote this to her, but no doubt she would not and could not "hear" the message, but I'll quote it for somebody here who may benefit:

My question was "Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk." If any of what you said was truly an issue wherein have you been put at risk. Who removed your agency to be obedient? Who led you astray - other than yourself?

The Brethren teach ALL.THE.TIME and I mean incessantly "All is well in Zion." This is their mantra. There's no call to repentance that causes the people to cast them out and call them heretics. Ask Lehi how the people react when a call to repentance is given!

I believe I answered your question. The "all is well in Zion" mantra leads us and led me astray. I can't blame them 100%, but they were a factor in me getting complacent. After all, I was on the Good Ship Zion. Married in the temple. Ordinance worker. Faithful in serving in the Church. Tithe payer. Temple recommend holder. 100% home teacher. Check. Check. Check. I can go on down the list and check all the boxes. Why do I do the things on the checklist? Because if I do, then my salvation is assured! That's why.

But the Lectures on Faith teach otherwise, don't they?!?!?!?!

And guess what happened to those doctrinal lectures that explain so clearly the way of salvation? The Brethren tossed them out on their ear. Can't have such "hard" doctrine in the Church, can we, they reasoned among themselves. It's not popular, and therefore WE can't be popular in the eyes of the world

Do you listen to conference? Genuinely asking because the exact opposite is taught... all is not well, don’t check a box, focus on Christlike ministering and his gospel, and the brethren quote the lectures on faith all the time and they are sold at the church own book store. Part of why they were removed was because they considered them lectures not revelations, but to label them “tossed out” is a false accusation. The fact that they are quoted from by many of the brethren insinuates there value.

You are confusing what some are doing in certain areas vs what the leaders are trying to teach.

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:10 pm
We must come to Christ ourselves, plant his. his word deep into our hearts (the seed from Alma 32) or grasp firmly to the iron rod (his word and Spirit from Nephi's teachings). This word, his law, and our connection to him must become sealed on our hearts and rid us of all desire to do evil. Thus born of the Spirit ourselves, we can be empowered to follow the Holy Ghost and stop outsourcing our connection to God to others.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r- ... ship-lord/

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 5:21 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:10 pm
We must come to Christ ourselves, plant his. his word deep into our hearts (the seed from Alma 32) or grasp firmly to the iron rod (his word and Spirit from Nephi's teachings). This word, his law, and our connection to him must become sealed on our hearts and rid us of all desire to do evil. Thus born of the Spirit ourselves, we can be empowered to follow the Holy Ghost and stop outsourcing our connection to God to others.

Several of you folks...not just you need to really come to an understanding of what our relationship with Christ is and how it is accomplished, so I provide and very clear and concise source of information that is probably going to upset the apple cart ... but here goes...the link:

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r- ... ship-lord/

The proper course for all of us is to stay in the mainstream of the Church. This is the Lord’s Church, and it is led by the spirit of inspiration, and the practice of the Church constitutes the interpretation of the scripture.

And you have never heard one of the First Presidency or the Twelve, who hold the keys of the kingdom, and who are appointed to see that we are not “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine” (Ephesians 4:14)—you have never heard one of them advocate this excessive zeal that calls for gaining a so-called special and personal relationship with Christ.

You have heard them teach and testify of the ministry and mission of the Lord Jesus, using the most persuasive and powerful language at their command. But never, never at any time have they taught or endorsed the inordinate or intemperate zeal that encourages endless, sometimes day-long prayers, in order to gain a personal relationship with the Savior.

Those who truly love the Lord and who worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Spirit, according to the approved patterns, maintain a reverential barrier between themselves and all the members of the Godhead.

I am well aware that some who have prayed for endless hours feel they have a special and personal relationship with Christ that they never had before. I wonder if this is any or so much different, however, from the feelings of fanatical sectarians who with glassy eyes and fiery tongues assure us they have been saved by grace and are assured of a place with the Lord in a heavenly abode, when in fact they have never even received the fullness of the gospel.

I wonder if it is not part of Lucifer’s system to make people feel they are special friends of Jesus when in fact they are not following the normal and usual pattern of worship found in the true Church.

Let me remind you to stay in the course chartered by the Church. It is the Lord’s Church, and he will not permit it to be led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers, we will pursue the course that is pleasing to the Lord.

Would it be amiss if I reminded you that Jesus maintained a reserve between him and his disciples and that he did not allow them the same intimacy with him that they had with each other? This was particularly true after his resurrection.

For instance, when Mary Magdalene, in a great outpouring of love and devotion, sought to embrace the risen Lord, her hands were stayed. “Touch me not,” he said. Between her and him, no matter what the degree of their love, there was a line over which she could not pass. And yet, almost immediately thereafter, a whole group of faithful women held that same Lord by the feet, and, we cannot doubt, bathed his wounded feet with their tears.

It is a fine and sacred line, but clearly there is a difference between a personal and intimate relationship with the Lord, which is improper, and one of worshipful adoration, which yet maintains the required reserve between us and him who has bought us with his blood.

Conclusion

Now I sincerely hope that no one will imagine that I have in the slightest degree downgraded the Lord Jesus in the scheme of things. I have not done so. As far as I know there is not a man on earth who thinks more highly of him than I do. It just may be that I have preached more sermons, taught more doctrine, and written more words about the Lord Jesus Christ than any other man now living. I have ten large volumes in print, seven of which deal almost entirely with Christ, and the other three with him and his doctrines.

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 5:21 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:10 pm
We must come to Christ ourselves, plant his. his word deep into our hearts (the seed from Alma 32) or grasp firmly to the iron rod (his word and Spirit from Nephi's teachings). This word, his law, and our connection to him must become sealed on our hearts and rid us of all desire to do evil. Thus born of the Spirit ourselves, we can be empowered to follow the Holy Ghost and stop outsourcing our connection to God to others.

Several of you folks...not just you need to really come to an understanding of what our relationship with Christ is and how it is accomplished, so I provide and very clear and concise source of information that is probably going to upset the apple cart ... but here goes...the link:

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r- ... ship-lord/

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 5:21 pmSeveral of you folks...not just you need to really come to an understanding of what our relationship with Christ is and how it is accomplished...

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 5:47 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 5:21 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:10 pm
We must come to Christ ourselves, plant his. his word deep into our hearts (the seed from Alma 32) or grasp firmly to the iron rod (his word and Spirit from Nephi's teachings). This word, his law, and our connection to him must become sealed on our hearts and rid us of all desire to do evil. Thus born of the Spirit ourselves, we can be empowered to follow the Holy Ghost and stop outsourcing our connection to God to others.

Several of you folks...not just you need to really come to an understanding of what our relationship with Christ is and how it is accomplished, so I provide and very clear and concise source of information that is probably going to upset the apple cart ... but here goes...the link:

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r- ... ship-lord/

That talk by Bruce R. McConkie was one of the most tyrannical talks ever given, and I believe he apologized later to George Pace for the effect it had on Brother Pace's life and reputation. Brother Pace was ignominiously released prematurely from his calling as stake president due to Elder McConkie's abuse of authority.

This talk is filled with priestcraft and unrighteous dominion and false doctrine, and it has the spirit of censorship.

As evidence here is Exhibit A:

The proper course for all of us is to stay in the mainstream of the Church. This is the Lord’s Church, and it is led by the spirit of inspiration, and the practice of the Church constitutes the interpretation of the scripture.

And you have never heard one of the First Presidency or the Twelve, who hold the keys of the kingdom, and who are appointed to see that we are not “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine” (Ephesians 4:14)—you have never heard one of them advocate this excessive zeal that calls for gaining a so-called special and personal relationship with Christ.

You have heard them teach and testify of the ministry and mission of the Lord Jesus, using the most persuasive and powerful language at their command. But never, never at any time have they taught or endorsed the inordinate or intemperate zeal that encourages endless, sometimes day-long prayers, in order to gain a personal relationship with the Savior.

Those who truly love the Lord and who worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Spirit, according to the approved patterns, maintain a reverential barrier between themselves and all the members of the Godhead.

I am well aware that some who have prayed for endless hours feel they have a special and personal relationship with Christ that they never had before. I wonder if this is any or so much different, however, from the feelings of fanatical sectarians who with glassy eyes and fiery tongues assure us they have been saved by grace and are assured of a place with the Lord in a heavenly abode, when in fact they have never even received the fullness of the gospel.

I wonder if it is not part of Lucifer’s system to make people feel they are special friends of Jesus when in fact they are not following the normal and usual pattern of worship found in the true Church.

Let me remind you to stay in the course chartered by the Church. It is the Lord’s Church, and he will not permit it to be led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers, we will pursue the course that is pleasing to the Lord.

Would it be amiss if I reminded you that Jesus maintained a reserve between him and his disciples and that he did not allow them the same intimacy with him that they had with each other? This was particularly true after his resurrection.

For instance, when Mary Magdalene, in a great outpouring of love and devotion, sought to embrace the risen Lord, her hands were stayed. “Touch me not,” he said. Between her and him, no matter what the degree of their love, there was a line over which she could not pass. And yet, almost immediately thereafter, a whole group of faithful women held that same Lord by the feet, and, we cannot doubt, bathed his wounded feet with their tears.

It is a fine and sacred line, but clearly there is a difference between a personal and intimate relationship with the Lord, which is improper, and one of worshipful adoration, which yet maintains the required reserve between us and him who has bought us with his blood.

Conclusion

Now I sincerely hope that no one will imagine that I have in the slightest degree downgraded the Lord Jesus in the scheme of things. I have not done so. As far as I know there is not a man on earth who thinks more highly of him than I do. It just may be that I have preached more sermons, taught more doctrine, and written more words about the Lord Jesus Christ than any other man now living. I have ten large volumes in print, seven of which deal almost entirely with Christ, and the other three with him and his doctrines.

The reason Elder McConkie gave this talk in 1982 was to publicly rebuke George Pace for his very popular book which was changing lives and hugely popular among latter-day saints. Bruce didn't like not being the number one guy-- so he destroyed another man's life-- George Pace. What a despicable act of trammeling another man's beliefs. What a small man would do this heartless atrocity to an innocent man who was so loving and adored as a wonderful disciple of Christ.

I'm not going to pick apart every part of this talk nor of the excerpt I gave. But you should be able to discern the false doctrine and spirit of unrighteous dominion in the excerpt I gave above.

It is an utter doctrine of hell to state that we should stay in the mainstream of the church. It is an utter doctrine of hell to say that we cannot be led astray. It is blasphemy to presume to speak for Christ, and sloppy writing to misquote the Savior. The JST says Christ said "Hold me not" to Mary. Elder McConkie didn't know this? What are the chances that he didn't know? He knew, but the correct quotation didn't serve his agenda.

What a humiliating talk, meaning he humiliated himself, and left it for posterity, to see inside his soul.

There is so much to say about this horrible talk, and I'm just stunned that you would quote this talk and lift it up as a model talk.

B. wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 6:24 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 5:21 pmSeveral of you folks...not just you need to really come to an understanding of what our relationship with Christ is and how it is accomplished...

Wow, how very condescending.

There are yet others who have an excessive zeal which causes them to go beyond the mark. Their desire for excellence is inordinate. In an effort to be truer than true they devote themselves to gaining a special, personal relationship with Christ that is both improper and perilous.

I say perilous because this course, particularly in the lives of some who are spiritually immature, is a gospel hobby which creates an unwholesome holier-than-thou attitude. In other instances it leads to despondency because the seeker after perfection knows he is not living the way he supposes he should.

Now I know that some may be offended at the counsel that they should not strive for a special and personal relationship with Christ. It will seem to them as though I am speaking out against mother love, or Americanism, or the little red schoolhouse. But I am not. There is a fine line here over which true worshipers will not step.

It is true that there may, with propriety, be a special relationship with a wife, with children, with friends, with teachers, with the beasts of the field and the fowls of the sky and the lilies of the valley. But the very moment anyone singles out one member of the Godhead as the almost sole recipient of his devotion, to the exclusion of the others, that is the moment when spiritual instability begins to replace sense and reason.

The proper course for all of us is to stay in the mainstream of the Church. This is the Lord’s Church, and it is led by the spirit of inspiration, and the practice of the Church constitutes the interpretation of the scripture.

And you have never heard one of the First Presidency or the Twelve, who hold the keys of the kingdom, and who are appointed to see that we are not “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine” (Ephesians 4:14)—you have never heard one of them advocate this excessive zeal that calls for gaining a so-called special and personal relationship with Christ.

You have heard them teach and testify of the ministry and mission of the Lord Jesus, using the most persuasive and powerful language at their command. But never, never at any time have they taught or endorsed the inordinate or intemperate zeal that encourages endless, sometimes day-long prayers, in order to gain a personal relationship with the Savior.

Those who truly love the Lord and who worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Spirit, according to the approved patterns, maintain a reverential barrier between themselves and all the members of the Godhead.

I am well aware that some who have prayed for endless hours feel they have a special and personal relationship with Christ that they never had before. I wonder if this is any or so much different, however, from the feelings of fanatical sectarians who with glassy eyes and fiery tongues assure us they have been saved by grace and are assured of a place with the Lord in a heavenly abode, when in fact they have never even received the fullness of the gospel.

I wonder if it is not part of Lucifer’s system to make people feel they are special friends of Jesus when in fact they are not following the normal and usual pattern of worship found in the true Church.

Let me remind you to stay in the course chartered by the Church. It is the Lord’s Church, and he will not permit it to be led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers, we will pursue the course that is pleasing to the Lord.

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 5:21 pmSeveral of you folks...not just you need to really come to an understanding of what our relationship with Christ is and how it is accomplished, so I provide and very clear and concise source of information that is probably going to upset the apple cart ... but here goes...the link:

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r- ... ship-lord/

...Now I know that some may be offended at the counsel that they should not strive for a special and personal relationship with Christ. It will seem to them as though I am speaking out against mother love, or Americanism, or the little red schoolhouse. But I am not. There is a fine line here over which true worshipers will not step...

And you have never heard one of the First Presidency or the Twelve, who hold the keys of the kingdom, and who are appointed to see that we are not “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine” (Ephesians 4:14)—you have never heard one of them advocate this excessive zeal that calls for gaining a so-called special and personal relationship with Christ...

You have heard them teach and testify of the ministry and mission of the Lord Jesus, using the most persuasive and powerful language at their command. But never, never at any time have they taught or endorsed the inordinate or intemperate zeal that encourages endless, sometimes day-long prayers, in order to gain a personal relationship with the Savior...

LoF 2, Question 146: How do men obtain a knowledge of the glory of God, his perfections and attributes?
By devoting themselves to his service, through prayer and supplication incessantly, strengthening their faith in him, until like Enoch, the brother of Jared, and Moses, they obtain a manifestation of God to themselves.

Mosiah 15:1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

Alma 11:38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?

39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;

40 And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.

Matthew 23:13 ¶ But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 6:52 pm

B. wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 6:24 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 5:21 pmSeveral of you folks...not just you need to really come to an understanding of what our relationship with Christ is and how it is accomplished...

Wow, how very condescending.

He is essentially quoting from Bruce R McConkie:

There are yet others who have an excessive zeal which causes them to go beyond the mark. Their desire for excellence is inordinate. In an effort to be truer than true they devote themselves to gaining a special, personal relationship with Christ that is both improper and perilous.

I say perilous because this course, particularly in the lives of some who are spiritually immature, is a gospel hobby which creates an unwholesome holier-than-thou attitude. In other instances it leads to despondency because the seeker after perfection knows he is not living the way he supposes he should.

Now I know that some may be offended at the counsel that they should not strive for a special and personal relationship with Christ. It will seem to them as though I am speaking out against mother love, or Americanism, or the little red schoolhouse. But I am not. There is a fine line here over which true worshipers will not step.

It is true that there may, with propriety, be a special relationship with a wife, with children, with friends, with teachers, with the beasts of the field and the fowls of the sky and the lilies of the valley. But the very moment anyone singles out one member of the Godhead as the almost sole recipient of his devotion, to the exclusion of the others, that is the moment when spiritual instability begins to replace sense and reason.

The proper course for all of us is to stay in the mainstream of the Church. This is the Lord’s Church, and it is led by the spirit of inspiration, and the practice of the Church constitutes the interpretation of the scripture.

And you have never heard one of the First Presidency or the Twelve, who hold the keys of the kingdom, and who are appointed to see that we are not “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine” (Ephesians 4:14)—you have never heard one of them advocate this excessive zeal that calls for gaining a so-called special and personal relationship with Christ.

You have heard them teach and testify of the ministry and mission of the Lord Jesus, using the most persuasive and powerful language at their command. But never, never at any time have they taught or endorsed the inordinate or intemperate zeal that encourages endless, sometimes day-long prayers, in order to gain a personal relationship with the Savior.

Those who truly love the Lord and who worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Spirit, according to the approved patterns, maintain a reverential barrier between themselves and all the members of the Godhead.

I am well aware that some who have prayed for endless hours feel they have a special and personal relationship with Christ that they never had before. I wonder if this is any or so much different, however, from the feelings of fanatical sectarians who with glassy eyes and fiery tongues assure us they have been saved by grace and are assured of a place with the Lord in a heavenly abode, when in fact they have never even received the fullness of the gospel.

I wonder if it is not part of Lucifer’s system to make people feel they are special friends of Jesus when in fact they are not following the normal and usual pattern of worship found in the true Church.

Let me remind you to stay in the course chartered by the Church. It is the Lord’s Church, and he will not permit it to be led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers, we will pursue the course that is pleasing to the Lord.

Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

D&C 39:1 Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ—

2 The light and the life of the world; a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;

3 The same which came in the meridian of time unto mine own, and mine own received me not;

4 But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons.

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 5:47 pm
It is an utter doctrine of hell to state that we should stay in the mainstream of the church. It is an utter doctrine of hell to say that we cannot be led astray. It is blasphemy to presume to speak for Christ, and sloppy writing to misquote the Savior. The JST says Christ said "Hold me not" to Mary. Elder McConkie didn't know this? What are the chances that he didn't know? He knew, but the correct quotation didn't serve his agenda.

What a humiliating talk, meaning he humiliated himself, and left it for posterity, to see inside his soul.

There is so much to say about this horrible talk, and I'm just stunned that you would quote this talk and lift it up as a model talk.

marc wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 7:08 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 5:21 pmSeveral of you folks...not just you need to really come to an understanding of what our relationship with Christ is and how it is accomplished, so I provide and very clear and concise source of information that is probably going to upset the apple cart ... but here goes...the link:

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r- ... ship-lord/

...Now I know that some may be offended at the counsel that they should not strive for a special and personal relationship with Christ. It will seem to them as though I am speaking out against mother love, or Americanism, or the little red schoolhouse. But I am not. There is a fine line here over which true worshipers will not step...

And you have never heard one of the First Presidency or the Twelve, who hold the keys of the kingdom, and who are appointed to see that we are not “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine” (Ephesians 4:14)—you have never heard one of them advocate this excessive zeal that calls for gaining a so-called special and personal relationship with Christ...

You have heard them teach and testify of the ministry and mission of the Lord Jesus, using the most persuasive and powerful language at their command. But never, never at any time have they taught or endorsed the inordinate or intemperate zeal that encourages endless, sometimes day-long prayers, in order to gain a personal relationship with the Savior...

On the contrary, Joseph Smith frequently admonished the saints to go on and make their calling and election sure, to obtain the privilege of receiving the Other Comforter, which is Jesus Christ. The least saint may learn every bit of knowledge offered to those in the chief seats. And this is obtained precisely thus:

LoF 2, Question 146: How do men obtain a knowledge of the glory of God, his perfections and attributes?
By devoting themselves to his service, through prayer and supplication incessantly, strengthening their faith in him, until like Enoch, the brother of Jared, and Moses, they obtain a manifestation of God to themselves.

And by God, it means Jesus Christ. I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, who is the very eternal Father as Abinadi declared.

Mosiah 15:1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

Even Zeezrom had enough understanding to query Alma and Amulek:

Alma 11:38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?

39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;

40 And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.

Elder McConkie's discourse reminds me of the following verse:

Matthew 23:13 ¶ But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Don't get me wrong. I love those who preside in the church. I have charity for them. But I will never let any of them stand between myself and my God, even my Father, Jesus Christ who gives power to all to become His sons and His daughters.

I mean these things soberly and respectfully with love.

B. wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 6:24 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 5:21 pmSeveral of you folks...not just you need to really come to an understanding of what our relationship with Christ is and how it is accomplished...

Wow, how very condescending.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 7:06 pm edit -- Marc said it much better than I.
See post below.

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:26 pm
Our day lacks the miracles, visions, visitations of angels, and manifestations of Gods power and spiritual fruit which Moroni attributes to unbelief in Christ. And no, it's not because we don't follow our leaders close enough. As Elder Oaks stated, he has not received these manifestations either. They neither go in themselves, neither suffer others to go in (Matthew 23:13).

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 9:04 pm

B. wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 6:24 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 5:21 pmSeveral of you folks...not just you need to really come to an understanding of what our relationship with Christ is and how it is accomplished...

Wow, how very condescending.

What is it that the scriptures say about how the wicked take the truth...I'm sure you remember it....but at least you realized I was including you in the group. I should add though it was not my intent to be condescending but to point to valid and consistent and true doctrine as opposed to just opinionating all over the place.

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:51 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:28 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:10 pm All good counsel, until we become entrenched in the idea that certain voices can never be errant, or that we can undoubtedly trust certain people by virtue of their position. Any person or group can fall.

Likewise, the notion that the church today must be "true and living" because Joseph was a prophet, God lives, and the Book of Mormon is the true word of God is not a reasonable assumption. This doesn't mean the Church today can't be "true and living". I'm merely saying that when a large portion of our testimony of today's church follows this logic, then we are on shaky ground. We are always one generation away from apostasy, and no one has ever been given a guarantee from God that they are immune.

We must come to Christ ourselves, plant his. his word deep into our hearts (the seed from Alma 32) or grasp firmly to the iron rod (his word and Spirit from Nephi's teachings). This word, his law, and our connection to him must become sealed on our hearts and rid us of all desire to do evil. Thus born of the Spirit ourselves, we can be empowered to follow the Holy Ghost and stop outsourcing our connection to God to others.

Descend from the clouds of ambiguity and generalization. Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk. Where's the beef in this burger you keep serving up?

As well no one has said or advocated any differently that you need to come unto Christ but I am sound and secure that you will not do so but that you understand your proper relationship in sustaining his chosen leaders instead of denigrating and minimalizing their role in the process of coming unto Christ.

My statement should be self evident, but it isn't to a people so steeped in tradition that that doctrine can't be separated from tradition.
But for one, when a President of a church assures that church that neither he nor anyone in his position after him will ever be permitted to lead that people astray.

3 Nephi 11:14 wrote:Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

Ether 3:17-18 wrote:And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.

And he ministered unto him even as he ministered unto the Nephites; and all this, that this man might know that he was God, because of the many great works which the Lord had showed unto him.