LDS Freedom Forum

caburnha wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:14 am

endlessismyname wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:05 am "I know that He lives as surely as did Joseph Smith when he saw the Father and the Son in the light of a brilliant morning in a grove of trees in Palmyra."

Either you believe him, or you don't. But he's not giving you a lot of wiggle room to play around with. He's clearly arguing that he's had some profound spiritual experience on par with the First Vision.

He did not say, nor have any of them said, that he has had an experience on par with the first vision. Again, that is us assuming, which they clearly leave us plenty of room to do... What he is saying, is what they have said over and over again... that their testimony, given by the Holy Ghost, gives them the same TYPE of testimony. The idea here is that the whispering of the Spirit is equal or greater than sight.

I'll repeat again the words of Elder Oaks that I've already shared regarding testimony -
"I don't think we're going to get it like Paul did where an angel appeared to him, like Alma did. I've never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience. Yet everyone of us knows of a certainty the things that Alma knew."

caburnha wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:33 am

endlessismyname wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:05 am "I know that He lives as surely as did Joseph Smith when he saw the Father and the Son in the light of a brilliant morning in a grove of trees in Palmyra."

Either you believe him, or you don't. But he's not giving you a lot of wiggle room to play around with. He's clearly arguing that he's had some profound spiritual experience on par with the First Vision.

And by the way, yes I believe him that he truly believes that he knows just as surely as Joseph Smith did. I'm just not sure that someone who has actually seen the Father and the Son would agree with him.

endlessismyname wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:43 am

caburnha wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:14 am

endlessismyname wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:05 am "I know that He lives as surely as did Joseph Smith when he saw the Father and the Son in the light of a brilliant morning in a grove of trees in Palmyra."

Either you believe him, or you don't. But he's not giving you a lot of wiggle room to play around with. He's clearly arguing that he's had some profound spiritual experience on par with the First Vision.

He did not say, nor have any of them said, that he has had an experience on par with the first vision. Again, that is us assuming, which they clearly leave us plenty of room to do... What he is saying, is what they have said over and over again... that their testimony, given by the Holy Ghost, gives them the same TYPE of testimony. The idea here is that the whispering of the Spirit is equal or greater than sight.

I'll repeat again the words of Elder Oaks that I've already shared regarding testimony -
"I don't think we're going to get it like Paul did where an angel appeared to him, like Alma did. I've never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience. Yet everyone of us knows of a certainty the things that Alma knew."

A couple things. One, I think there is ample room here for rational people to disagree. I would suggest that you are ascribing a level of mendacity to Pres. Eyring that may be unwarranted. I can't speak for the man, but when I say "I know the old oak tree sits on the edge of my property just as surely as my grandpa did when he sat in its branches in those cool summer nights", I mean what I say.

Now I could be wrong; indeed, I lose much sleep wondering if I'm wrong about questions such as these. But again, you are making a fairly serious accusation against this group of men, claiming that they craft their words in such a manner as to be purposefully confusing and vague. If you could prove that assertion i'm not sure how you could follow them anywhere: that's a bad type of person.

Second, you seem to want to be precise about words, so let's be precise. President Oaks said he doesn't know any of the brethren who have had that type of experience. That doesn't mean that none of them have. Perhaps Pres. Eyring had a sacred experience and chose not to tell it to President Oaks. The text allows for it, you have to concede.

John Tavner wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:42 am

caburnha wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:14 am

endlessismyname wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:05 am "I know that He lives as surely as did Joseph Smith when he saw the Father and the Son in the light of a brilliant morning in a grove of trees in Palmyra."

Either you believe him, or you don't. But he's not giving you a lot of wiggle room to play around with. He's clearly arguing that he's had some profound spiritual experience on par with the First Vision.

He did not say, nor have any of them said, that he has had an experience on par with the first vision. Again, that is us assuming, which they clearly leave us plenty of room to do... What he is saying, is what they have said over and over again... that their testimony, given by the Holy Ghost, gives them the same TYPE of testimony. The idea here is that the whispering of the Spirit is equal or greater than sight.

I'll repeat again the words of Elder Oaks that I've already shared regarding testimony -
"I don't think we're going to get it like Paul did where an angel appeared to him, like Alma did. I've never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience. Yet everyone of us knows of a certainty the things that Alma knew."

You know what the sad part about that is? Unbelief. It is exactly what Moroni warned us about. I also have unbelief, but I want to believe. I know people who have seen, and I believe upon their words. I also rely upon the promise in D&C 88: 67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

Moroni stated:

Moroni 7:35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.

39 But behold, my beloved brethren, I judge better things of you, for I judge that ye have faith in Christ because of your meekness; for if ye have not faith in him then ye are not fit to be numbered among the people of his church.

So Sadly most of us don't believe, and some leaders don't believe and they perpetuate that unbelief on us. Sad is our state. We are unwilling to make the sacrifices of the world in order to see the Face of God - I include myself in that. The Lord's face will be unveiled - when we are dead we have already crossed the veil - there is not "unveiling". Sadly most of us have convinced ourselves that we do believe, when we don't (again I include myself) I am struggling to cast off my unbelief. It is only through faith on Christ in which one can cast off all unbelief and pierce the veil. The greatest thing we can do is to admit that we don't believe enough and pray for great faith, and pray to believe on the words of those in the Book of Mormon. Which as I was reading the condemnation of our church for not reading the book of Mormon I realized the verses beforehand talk about them being condemned for unbelief because they don't read the Book of Mormon which... surprise! Teaches us to believe and that we ALL can see the face of God if we seek, we can ahve angelic ministrations and truly be born again - which by the way is an event and not some life long process - sanctification can be long process, but being born again is something that occurs and changes us. The book of Mormon again, teaches us that.

Edit: Testimony is to teach us to believe, and we are to glory in being reviled of man and persecuted for the Lord's namesake. This comes because of our testimony. Which we are supposed to share.

evejaa wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 9:17 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:42 am

caburnha wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:14 am

endlessismyname wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:05 am "I know that He lives as surely as did Joseph Smith when he saw the Father and the Son in the light of a brilliant morning in a grove of trees in Palmyra."

Either you believe him, or you don't. But he's not giving you a lot of wiggle room to play around with. He's clearly arguing that he's had some profound spiritual experience on par with the First Vision.

He did not say, nor have any of them said, that he has had an experience on par with the first vision. Again, that is us assuming, which they clearly leave us plenty of room to do... What he is saying, is what they have said over and over again... that their testimony, given by the Holy Ghost, gives them the same TYPE of testimony. The idea here is that the whispering of the Spirit is equal or greater than sight.

I'll repeat again the words of Elder Oaks that I've already shared regarding testimony -
"I don't think we're going to get it like Paul did where an angel appeared to him, like Alma did. I've never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience. Yet everyone of us knows of a certainty the things that Alma knew."

You know what the sad part about that is? Unbelief. It is exactly what Moroni warned us about. I also have unbelief, but I want to believe. I know people who have seen, and I believe upon their words. I also rely upon the promise in D&C 88: 67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

Moroni stated:

Moroni 7:35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.

39 But behold, my beloved brethren, I judge better things of you, for I judge that ye have faith in Christ because of your meekness; for if ye have not faith in him then ye are not fit to be numbered among the people of his church.

So Sadly most of us don't believe, and some leaders don't believe and they perpetuate that unbelief on us. Sad is our state. We are unwilling to make the sacrifices of the world in order to see the Face of God - I include myself in that. The Lord's face will be unveiled - when we are dead we have already crossed the veil - there is not "unveiling". Sadly most of us have convinced ourselves that we do believe, when we don't (again I include myself) I am struggling to cast off my unbelief. It is only through faith on Christ in which one can cast off all unbelief and pierce the veil. The greatest thing we can do is to admit that we don't believe enough and pray for great faith, and pray to believe on the words of those in the Book of Mormon. Which as I was reading the condemnation of our church for not reading the book of Mormon I realized the verses beforehand talk about them being condemned for unbelief because they don't read the Book of Mormon which... surprise! Teaches us to believe and that we ALL can see the face of God if we seek, we can ahve angelic ministrations and truly be born again - which by the way is an event and not some life long process - sanctification can be long process, but being born again is something that occurs and changes us. The book of Mormon again, teaches us that.

Edit: Testimony is to teach us to believe, and we are to glory in being reviled of man and persecuted for the Lord's namesake. This comes because of our testimony. Which we are supposed to share.

John dear, I looked for you and found this post. I am sorry you don't believe, but I feel you do want to. Am I right?
There are many that have faith, they hope someday to know.
There are many who believe, it makes sense to them and they feel good about most of what the church preaches or has to offer.
And then there are those who have knowledge, in other words, something that the church teaches, the Spirit of the Holy Ghost has bore witness to there spirit on a personal level. With this level, comes the, "it doesn't matter what the church leads say or do, the church is true".

Seek this level John, you are in title to this level of knowledge. But this level takes, " I want to know" desire. Then get on your knees or go to the woods and don't give up, lose yourself, don't think in terms of time, cry out till you know. Come to know John, God is our Father, Jospeh Smith was a true Prophet, the Book of Mormon is the word of God, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is Christ true Church on this earth. Take your pick. But if anyone of these statements is true, they all are true...period.

I tell you John it is all true, I am not a Prophet, just an imperfect girl that has received several personal answers.

evejaa wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 9:17 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:42 am

caburnha wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:14 am

endlessismyname wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:05 am "I know that He lives as surely as did Joseph Smith when he saw the Father and the Son in the light of a brilliant morning in a grove of trees in Palmyra."

Either you believe him, or you don't. But he's not giving you a lot of wiggle room to play around with. He's clearly arguing that he's had some profound spiritual experience on par with the First Vision.

He did not say, nor have any of them said, that he has had an experience on par with the first vision. Again, that is us assuming, which they clearly leave us plenty of room to do... What he is saying, is what they have said over and over again... that their testimony, given by the Holy Ghost, gives them the same TYPE of testimony. The idea here is that the whispering of the Spirit is equal or greater than sight.

I'll repeat again the words of Elder Oaks that I've already shared regarding testimony -
"I don't think we're going to get it like Paul did where an angel appeared to him, like Alma did. I've never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience. Yet everyone of us knows of a certainty the things that Alma knew."

You know what the sad part about that is? Unbelief. It is exactly what Moroni warned us about. I also have unbelief, but I want to believe. I know people who have seen, and I believe upon their words. I also rely upon the promise in D&C 88: 67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

Moroni stated:

Moroni 7:35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.

39 But behold, my beloved brethren, I judge better things of you, for I judge that ye have faith in Christ because of your meekness; for if ye have not faith in him then ye are not fit to be numbered among the people of his church.

So Sadly most of us don't believe, and some leaders don't believe and they perpetuate that unbelief on us. Sad is our state. We are unwilling to make the sacrifices of the world in order to see the Face of God - I include myself in that. The Lord's face will be unveiled - when we are dead we have already crossed the veil - there is not "unveiling". Sadly most of us have convinced ourselves that we do believe, when we don't (again I include myself) I am struggling to cast off my unbelief. It is only through faith on Christ in which one can cast off all unbelief and pierce the veil. The greatest thing we can do is to admit that we don't believe enough and pray for great faith, and pray to believe on the words of those in the Book of Mormon. Which as I was reading the condemnation of our church for not reading the book of Mormon I realized the verses beforehand talk about them being condemned for unbelief because they don't read the Book of Mormon which... surprise! Teaches us to believe and that we ALL can see the face of God if we seek, we can ahve angelic ministrations and truly be born again - which by the way is an event and not some life long process - sanctification can be long process, but being born again is something that occurs and changes us. The book of Mormon again, teaches us that.

Edit: Testimony is to teach us to believe, and we are to glory in being reviled of man and persecuted for the Lord's namesake. This comes because of our testimony. Which we are supposed to share.

John dear, I looked for you and found this post. I am sorry you don't believe, but I feel you do want to. Am I right?
There are many that have faith, they hope someday to know.
There are many who believe, it makes sense to them and they feel good about most of what the church preaches or has to offer.
And then there are those who have knowledge, in other words, something that the church teaches, the Spirit of the Holy Ghost has bore witness to there spirit on a personal level. With this level, comes the, "it doesn't matter what the church leads say or do, the church is true".

Seek this level John, you are in title to this level of knowledge. But this level takes, " I want to know" desire. Then get on your knees or go to the woods and don't give up, lose yourself, don't think in terms of time, cry out till you know. Come to know John, God is our Father, Jospeh Smith was a true Prophet, the Book of Mormon is the word of God, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is Christ true Church on this earth. Take your pick. But if anyone of these statements is true, they all are true...period.

I tell you John it is all true, I am not a Prophet, just an imperfect girl that has received several personal answers.

brlenox wrote: ↑March 31st, 2019, 10:00 pm

B. wrote: ↑March 31st, 2019, 12:00 pm

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 9:42 pmDallin Oaks: "...while some early apostles and other members of the church have had the sublime spiritual experience of seeing the Savior and some have made a public record of this, in the circumstances of today we are counseled not to speak of our most sacred spiritual experiences..."

This is in contradiction to the inspired Charge to the Twelve.

Also, the world back then was just as wicked, if not more, than it is today.

It is now more important than ever for there to be witnesses of God and Jesus Christ testifying that they have seen Him. Since the days of Adam this is a key factor in how the knowledge of God spreads so that people might have Faith in the Lord and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I think you miss the point entirely, and it is tragic and sad. I could pretty much respond to most of the posts on this thread with my response but since you are the top dog who I would expect would cultivate a more faithful approach - I might as well just put it here. I watched you wobble your way through Denver and barely escape, then all of the called and elected who used to wander these venues and finally somehow you let them go as well , it appeared. I was proud of you if for nothing else your bullet dodging skills...but it is obvious you still don't seem to get it. Please consider:

We do not talk of those sacred interviews that qualify the servants of the Lord to bear a special witness of Him, for we have been commanded not to do so. But we are free, indeed, we are obliged, to bear that special witness… I am a witness to the truth that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the Only Begotten of the Father; that He has a body of flesh and bone; that He knows those who are His servants here and that He is known of them. I know that He directs this Church now, as He established it then, through a prophet of God. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.(Packer, Boyd K., Tribute to the Rank and File)

What you state is better instruction in the "Charge to the Twelve" is old instruction. What is the value of having modern, living prophets if not to receive up to day and current living prophecy and direction. If you had seen Christ and he then stated "Go your way and see that you tell no man". Do you suspect that you would question his instruction to you at that time reminding him that it was inconsistent with the writings of Oliver Cowdery?

The greater need to be tried in the crucible of faith is one of the primary means of separating wheat and tares. It is sad to see how many cannot or will not hold to their faith. The rewards are just around the corner and so many are going to lament in sorrow that they did not hold on just a little bit longer.

29 And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men.

30 For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness.

31 And the office of their ministry is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfil and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him.

32 And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men.

3 Nephi 18:25

25 And ye see that I have commanded that none of you should go away, but rather have commanded that ye should come unto me, that ye might feel and see; even so shall ye do unto the world; and whosoever breaketh this commandment suffereth himself to be led into temptation.

evejaa wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 9:17 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:42 am

caburnha wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:14 am

endlessismyname wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:05 am "I know that He lives as surely as did Joseph Smith when he saw the Father and the Son in the light of a brilliant morning in a grove of trees in Palmyra."

Either you believe him, or you don't. But he's not giving you a lot of wiggle room to play around with. He's clearly arguing that he's had some profound spiritual experience on par with the First Vision.

He did not say, nor have any of them said, that he has had an experience on par with the first vision. Again, that is us assuming, which they clearly leave us plenty of room to do... What he is saying, is what they have said over and over again... that their testimony, given by the Holy Ghost, gives them the same TYPE of testimony. The idea here is that the whispering of the Spirit is equal or greater than sight.

I'll repeat again the words of Elder Oaks that I've already shared regarding testimony -
"I don't think we're going to get it like Paul did where an angel appeared to him, like Alma did. I've never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience. Yet everyone of us knows of a certainty the things that Alma knew."

You know what the sad part about that is? Unbelief. It is exactly what Moroni warned us about. I also have unbelief, but I want to believe. I know people who have seen, and I believe upon their words. I also rely upon the promise in D&C 88: 67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

Moroni stated:

Moroni 7:35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.

39 But behold, my beloved brethren, I judge better things of you, for I judge that ye have faith in Christ because of your meekness; for if ye have not faith in him then ye are not fit to be numbered among the people of his church.

So Sadly most of us don't believe, and some leaders don't believe and they perpetuate that unbelief on us. Sad is our state. We are unwilling to make the sacrifices of the world in order to see the Face of God - I include myself in that. The Lord's face will be unveiled - when we are dead we have already crossed the veil - there is not "unveiling". Sadly most of us have convinced ourselves that we do believe, when we don't (again I include myself) I am struggling to cast off my unbelief. It is only through faith on Christ in which one can cast off all unbelief and pierce the veil. The greatest thing we can do is to admit that we don't believe enough and pray for great faith, and pray to believe on the words of those in the Book of Mormon. Which as I was reading the condemnation of our church for not reading the book of Mormon I realized the verses beforehand talk about them being condemned for unbelief because they don't read the Book of Mormon which... surprise! Teaches us to believe and that we ALL can see the face of God if we seek, we can ahve angelic ministrations and truly be born again - which by the way is an event and not some life long process - sanctification can be long process, but being born again is something that occurs and changes us. The book of Mormon again, teaches us that.

Edit: Testimony is to teach us to believe, and we are to glory in being reviled of man and persecuted for the Lord's namesake. This comes because of our testimony. Which we are supposed to share.

John dear, I looked for you and found this post. I am sorry you don't believe, but I feel you do want to. Am I right?
There are many that have faith, they hope someday to know.
There are many who believe, it makes sense to them and they feel good about most of what the church preaches or has to offer.
And then there are those who have knowledge, in other words, something that the church teaches, the Spirit of the Holy Ghost has bore witness to there spirit on a personal level. With this level, comes the, "it doesn't matter what the church leads say or do, the church is true".

Seek this level John, you are in title to this level of knowledge. But this level takes, " I want to know" desire. Then get on your knees or go to the woods and don't give up, lose yourself, don't think in terms of time, cry out till you know. Come to know John, God is our Father, Jospeh Smith was a true Prophet, the Book of Mormon is the word of God, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is Christ true Church on this earth. Take your pick. But if anyone of these statements is true, they all are true...period.

I tell you John it is all true, I am not a Prophet, just an imperfect girl that has received several personal answers.

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 7:39 am

brlenox wrote: ↑March 31st, 2019, 10:00 pm

B. wrote: ↑March 31st, 2019, 12:00 pm

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 9:42 pmDallin Oaks: "...while some early apostles and other members of the church have had the sublime spiritual experience of seeing the Savior and some have made a public record of this, in the circumstances of today we are counseled not to speak of our most sacred spiritual experiences..."

This is in contradiction to the inspired Charge to the Twelve.

Also, the world back then was just as wicked, if not more, than it is today.

It is now more important than ever for there to be witnesses of God and Jesus Christ testifying that they have seen Him. Since the days of Adam this is a key factor in how the knowledge of God spreads so that people might have Faith in the Lord and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I think you miss the point entirely, and it is tragic and sad. I could pretty much respond to most of the posts on this thread with my response but since you are the top dog who I would expect would cultivate a more faithful approach - I might as well just put it here. I watched you wobble your way through Denver and barely escape, then all of the called and elected who used to wander these venues and finally somehow you let them go as well , it appeared. I was proud of you if for nothing else your bullet dodging skills...but it is obvious you still don't seem to get it. Please consider:

We do not talk of those sacred interviews that qualify the servants of the Lord to bear a special witness of Him, for we have been commanded not to do so. But we are free, indeed, we are obliged, to bear that special witness… I am a witness to the truth that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the Only Begotten of the Father; that He has a body of flesh and bone; that He knows those who are His servants here and that He is known of them. I know that He directs this Church now, as He established it then, through a prophet of God. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.(Packer, Boyd K., Tribute to the Rank and File)

What you state is better instruction in the "Charge to the Twelve" is old instruction. What is the value of having modern, living prophets if not to receive up to day and current living prophecy and direction. If you had seen Christ and he then stated "Go your way and see that you tell no man". Do you suspect that you would question his instruction to you at that time reminding him that it was inconsistent with the writings of Oliver Cowdery?

The greater need to be tried in the crucible of faith is one of the primary means of separating wheat and tares. It is sad to see how many cannot or will not hold to their faith. The rewards are just around the corner and so many are going to lament in sorrow that they did not hold on just a little bit longer.

Making excuses for current leadership is the default piano key many in the Church keep pounding. Conform every piece of evidence so it fits the narrative, even if it's clearly-opposing evidence. Conflation is the number one tool used to accomplish the confirmation bias.

The two ideas that are combined into one?

1) Don't cast pearls before swine. Yes, truly there are things too sacred to share openly, and we are asked to not share those.
2) Don't share an eye-witness account of divine messengers because, after all, it's a sacred "pearl".

Some sacred things, however, must be shared by prophets, seers, and revelators-- or true messengers. In fact, they are commanded! And the reason is explained in Moroni 7:

29 And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men.

30 For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness.

31 And the office of their ministry is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfil and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him.

32 And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men.

There is a ministry happening between heaven and man. We wouldn't have any of the Scriptures, FOR GOODNESS SAKE, if prophets didn't write down what was commanded them, including and ESPECIALLY their eye-witness accounts. What brought me into the Church, what piqued my interest in studying the BoM and praying to God was Joseph's testimony that he saw God the Father and Jesus Christ, that he was an eyewitness! Lehi sounds just like Joseph Smith. As does Nephi, as does his brother, as does King Benjamin, as does Alma, as does Mormon and Moroni. What do they all have in common? They had been in the presence of heavenly beings! They had been ministered to and they shared their eye witness account. Not EVERYTHING, mind you, but at the very least they shared their eyewitness testimony. The scripture above explains why. Why do angels appear to man?

1) To call men unto repentance,
2) To do the work of the covenants of the Father,
3) To prepare the way among the children of men that they may have faith in Christ,
4) That these chosen vessels, prophets, may bear testimony of Christ!

Dallin H. Oaks and anybody who agrees with him, inasmuch as he/ they denounces the sharing of such sacred experiences, actually OPPOSE the Father's work, which is to bring to pass the covenants of God.

And to put a fine point on it, these denouncers are leading people away into temptation. They are doing the devil's work. Jesus said so in this little-known, completely neglected commandment found in the Book of Mormon:

3 Nephi 18:25

25 And ye see that I have commanded that none of you should go away, but rather have commanded that ye should come unto me, that ye might feel and see; even so shall ye do unto the world; and whosoever breaketh this commandment suffereth himself to be led into temptation.

Christ commands those who have "felt" Him and "seen" Him, to go testify to the world that this is a COMMANDMENT!! Not a simple suggestion, but something we should actively be pursuing. We are to "come unto Him", to the intimate point where we thrust our hands into his side to feel the wound, and to feel the prints of the nails in His hands and in His feet, "that ye may know that I am the God of Israel," as He said.

Whoso does not keep this commandment (and certainly those who OPPOSE it), "suffers themselves to be led into temptation" of the evil one.

I didn't say it, BrLenox, Jesus Christ did.

Do you feel a need to square your unbeliefs with what Jesus clearly teaches in the BoM?


As a related aside, I recently taught this principle / the commandment to come unto Christ to feel and see Him, to a full house of LDS in the second period. Nobody in the packed chapel had even heard or could recognize this commandment. I know because I asked. This literal "commandment" is TOTALLY ignored in the Church and omitted from the leadership's preaching. You should ask yourself WHY. Why would the leaders ignore this teaching? I should do a post on this question.

The chilling point, the thing that should give you pause, that should cause you to "fear and tremble", if you will, is that the ignoring of this commandment, and certainly the opposition to this commandment result in your being subject to the power of the devil, including deception. And if you are deceived, but believe you are not deceived, then what an awful state you are in! Need I remind you that vanity and unbelief got the Church condemned, because they didn't take seriously the BoM, specifically by failing to DO what the book taught.

Please consider these words in your very own Book of Mormon. Please cease defending the devilish idea that messengers morally should not share their eyewitnesses of divinity. Such an idea comes not from God.

Please Read Alma 12:28

28 And after God had appointed that these things should come unto man, behold, then he saw that it was expedient that man should know concerning the things whereof he had appointed unto them;

Alma 12:29

29 Therefore he sent angels to converse with them, who caused men to behold of his glory.

Alma 12:30

30 And they began from that time forth to call on his name; therefore God conversed with men, and made known unto them the plan of redemption, which had been prepared from the foundation of the world; and this he made known unto them according to their faith and repentance and their holy works.

Alma 12:32

32 Therefore God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption, that they should not do evil, the penalty thereof being a second death, which was an everlasting death as to things pertaining unto righteousness; for on such the plan of redemption could have no power, for the works of justice could not be destroyed, according to the supreme goodness of God.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:"14

14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

Doctrine and Covenants 1:16

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:17

17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;

You start out with the Lord Jesus, and then you have Adam and Noah. Thereafter come the dispensation heads. Then you come to the prophets, to apostles, to the elders of Israel, and to wise and good and sagacious men who have the spirit of light and understanding. Every dispensation head is a revealer of Christ for his day; every prophet is a witness of Christ; and every other prophet or apostle who comes is a reflection and an echo and an exponent of the dispensation head. All such come to echo to the world and to expound and unfold what God has revealed through the man who was appointed to give his eternal word to the world for that era. Such is the dispensation concept. (McConkie, Bruce R. This Generation Shall Have My Word through You.)

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 10:12 am

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 7:39 am

brlenox wrote: ↑March 31st, 2019, 10:00 pm

B. wrote: ↑March 31st, 2019, 12:00 pm

This is in contradiction to the inspired Charge to the Twelve.

Also, the world back then was just as wicked, if not more, than it is today.

It is now more important than ever for there to be witnesses of God and Jesus Christ testifying that they have seen Him. Since the days of Adam this is a key factor in how the knowledge of God spreads so that people might have Faith in the Lord and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I think you miss the point entirely, and it is tragic and sad. I could pretty much respond to most of the posts on this thread with my response but since you are the top dog who I would expect would cultivate a more faithful approach - I might as well just put it here. I watched you wobble your way through Denver and barely escape, then all of the called and elected who used to wander these venues and finally somehow you let them go as well , it appeared. I was proud of you if for nothing else your bullet dodging skills...but it is obvious you still don't seem to get it. Please consider:

We do not talk of those sacred interviews that qualify the servants of the Lord to bear a special witness of Him, for we have been commanded not to do so. But we are free, indeed, we are obliged, to bear that special witness… I am a witness to the truth that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the Only Begotten of the Father; that He has a body of flesh and bone; that He knows those who are His servants here and that He is known of them. I know that He directs this Church now, as He established it then, through a prophet of God. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.(Packer, Boyd K., Tribute to the Rank and File)

What you state is better instruction in the "Charge to the Twelve" is old instruction. What is the value of having modern, living prophets if not to receive up to day and current living prophecy and direction. If you had seen Christ and he then stated "Go your way and see that you tell no man". Do you suspect that you would question his instruction to you at that time reminding him that it was inconsistent with the writings of Oliver Cowdery?

The greater need to be tried in the crucible of faith is one of the primary means of separating wheat and tares. It is sad to see how many cannot or will not hold to their faith. The rewards are just around the corner and so many are going to lament in sorrow that they did not hold on just a little bit longer.

Making excuses for current leadership is the default piano key many in the Church keep pounding. Conform every piece of evidence so it fits the narrative, even if it's clearly-opposing evidence. Conflation is the number one tool used to accomplish the confirmation bias.

The two ideas that are combined into one?

1) Don't cast pearls before swine. Yes, truly there are things too sacred to share openly, and we are asked to not share those.
2) Don't share an eye-witness account of divine messengers because, after all, it's a sacred "pearl".

Some sacred things, however, must be shared by prophets, seers, and revelators-- or true messengers. In fact, they are commanded! And the reason is explained in Moroni 7:

29 And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men.

30 For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness.

31 And the office of their ministry is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfil and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him.

32 And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men.

There is a ministry happening between heaven and man. We wouldn't have any of the Scriptures, FOR GOODNESS SAKE, if prophets didn't write down what was commanded them, including and ESPECIALLY their eye-witness accounts. What brought me into the Church, what piqued my interest in studying the BoM and praying to God was Joseph's testimony that he saw God the Father and Jesus Christ, that he was an eyewitness! Lehi sounds just like Joseph Smith. As does Nephi, as does his brother, as does King Benjamin, as does Alma, as does Mormon and Moroni. What do they all have in common? They had been in the presence of heavenly beings! They had been ministered to and they shared their eye witness account. Not EVERYTHING, mind you, but at the very least they shared their eyewitness testimony. The scripture above explains why. Why do angels appear to man?

1) To call men unto repentance,
2) To do the work of the covenants of the Father,
3) To prepare the way among the children of men that they may have faith in Christ,
4) That these chosen vessels, prophets, may bear testimony of Christ!

Dallin H. Oaks and anybody who agrees with him, inasmuch as he/ they denounces the sharing of such sacred experiences, actually OPPOSE the Father's work, which is to bring to pass the covenants of God.

And to put a fine point on it, these denouncers are leading people away into temptation. They are doing the devil's work. Jesus said so in this little-known, completely neglected commandment found in the Book of Mormon:

3 Nephi 18:25

25 And ye see that I have commanded that none of you should go away, but rather have commanded that ye should come unto me, that ye might feel and see; even so shall ye do unto the world; and whosoever breaketh this commandment suffereth himself to be led into temptation.

Christ commands those who have "felt" Him and "seen" Him, to go testify to the world that this is a COMMANDMENT!! Not a simple suggestion, but something we should actively be pursuing. We are to "come unto Him", to the intimate point where we thrust our hands into his side to feel the wound, and to feel the prints of the nails in His hands and in His feet, "that ye may know that I am the God of Israel," as He said.

Whoso does not keep this commandment (and certainly those who OPPOSE it), "suffers themselves to be led into temptation" of the evil one.

I didn't say it, BrLenox, Jesus Christ did.

Do you feel a need to square your unbeliefs with what Jesus clearly teaches in the BoM?


As a related aside, I recently taught this principle / the commandment to come unto Christ to feel and see Him, to a full house of LDS in the second period. Nobody in the packed chapel had even heard or could recognize this commandment. I know because I asked. This literal "commandment" is TOTALLY ignored in the Church and omitted from the leadership's preaching. You should ask yourself WHY. Why would the leaders ignore this teaching? I should do a post on this question.

The chilling point, the thing that should give you pause, that should cause you to "fear and tremble", if you will, is that the ignoring of this commandment, and certainly the opposition to this commandment result in your being subject to the power of the devil, including deception. And if you are deceived, but believe you are not deceived, then what an awful state you are in! Need I remind you that vanity and unbelief got the Church condemned, because they didn't take seriously the BoM, specifically by failing to DO what the book taught.

Please consider these words in your very own Book of Mormon. Please cease defending the devilish idea that messengers morally should not share their eyewitnesses of divinity. Such an idea comes not from God.

You are deeply entrenched in the idea that you see it correctly and that your interpretation of how the scriptures will be manifest and what the appearance of that manifestation will look like and yet there are obvious alternative considerations.

My first recommendation is reread the Lectures on Faith. It is basically a treatise on how to come back into the presence of Christ. You, yourself are actually partway in the process. You do not seem to be lacking in understanding that there is a Christ. You seem up to date on the fact that there are commandments and expectations and I think you have everything thing you need to make proper decisions and by appeals to your Father in Heaven, through the Holy Ghost you can find any of the pertinent pieces you may feel you are short on. That is the result of the verses you supplied being fulfilled in a means that has brought you to the point in which you now reside. Will more of the same type of information give you something you do not already have? OR should the objective be that you have enough outside insight and your objective and capacity is to magnify these things as you spiritually mature on your own to have your own spiritually significant experiences and insight?

Please Read Alma 12:28

28 And after God had appointed that these things should come unto man, behold, then he saw that it was expedient that man should know concerning the things whereof he had appointed unto them;

This is the lead in to the process that you are interpreting in your Moroni 7 verses. This is one more description of of why, and how the Father enacted the steps that find you with the knowledge you possess. How is it done?

Alma 12:29

29 Therefore he sent angels to converse with them, who caused men to behold of his glory.

Well now isn't this interesting. Hmmm. He says the plan was enacted from the very beginning that he would send angels to converse with men and these angels would be the source of the information relative to the plan of salvation.

Joseph Smith received angels. Angels provided him with the information that fulfills the edict of the next verse:

Alma 12:30

30 And they began from that time forth to call on his name; therefore God conversed with men, and made known unto them the plan of redemption, which had been prepared from the foundation of the world; and this he made known unto them according to their faith and repentance and their holy works.

Now in this conversing with the Lord as it is represented in these verses above do you suppose that meant he came down in person and chatted with men? Or do we recognize that the process of sending the angels who conversed with man and taught them to pray fulfills literally that expectation. In your prayers do you converse with God?

Alma 12:32

32 Therefore God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption, that they should not do evil, the penalty thereof being a second death, which was an everlasting death as to things pertaining unto righteousness; for on such the plan of redemption could have no power, for the works of justice could not be destroyed, according to the supreme goodness of God.

This is kind of your place at this point - commandments. You are in the middle of the process of the probationary test that finds you subject to commandments to allow the Lord to determine what kind of dude you are going to manifest being. You are in a very remarkable time as it is a time where a fullness of the gospel exists and those commandments that we are talking about are more clearly delineated in this dispensation than, I believe, ever before. I'm going to leave off of Alma 12 but one should read it for the understanding you are a tad weak on but I would like to examine just a couple of those commandments that we have received. Lets look at Doctrine and Covenants:

Doctrine and Covenants 1:"14

14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

These verses are a bit in reverse order of this process you outlined from Moroni 7 and that I have supported from Alma 12 but we will get to the exact same repeat of the process in the next couple of verses. However, I have never seen nor heard a rescinded voice or scripture for the above. It reigns supreme in scripture as the actual words of the Savior, Jesus Christ. When you converse with God in your prayers have you received instruction counter to this instruction? Have you been guided, contrary to the outline of Alma, Moroni, and now the Savior with instruction not given to the body of God's saints? Have angels appeared to you to declare a new commandment. If so, then you are wrong for not understanding how the process works and that you are not going to be directed against the Saviors own words. IF it were me, I would consider myself very foolish to think I was going to receive instruction counter to what the Savior provided. However, there are those who do so and the Savior recognized such. He described them in this fashion:

Doctrine and Covenants 1:16

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

"Every man walketh in his own way and after the image of his own God" - One might extrapolate this to include the idea that though I their God have spoken clearly to them concerning the men I will provide to convey the commandments to them which they know of by virtue of an angel (Moroni and others) which is according to Alma's outline and certainly embraces your Moroni 7 verses, one might extrapolate that that God that spoke to them so clearly and beyond debate declared that these servants speak with my voice, one might extrapolate that this might be construed as "walking in his own way". It certainly is in a different way than what he described, and indeed it may be that these walk after the image of a different God than Jesus Christ.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:17

17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;

I tickle myself on occasion as I have realized that all of these verses kind of come out chiastic even though from distinctly unique locations in scripture. We find now that the outline of Alma 12 as to how it is done with angels and teaching commandments is fulfilled in this ending verse. Angles did appear and did teach commandments which were provided for all of the inhabitants of the earth. It is because this process has worked that we find you here possessed of great understanding of the Savior and his plan of salvation.

No matter how you want to inject expectations and demand that Christ perform according to your expectations he has already said how you should receive his servants with a hint less judgmentalism, a touch more charity, and void of such hubris that dictates a false paradigm. Now I am going to close but before I do I leave you with a profound quote that in its way encapsulates your verses from Moroni, and my material from Alma and certainly the Doctrine and Covenants material. I hope you will consider it clearly and carefully. I spent months understanding this principle, writing and confirming in scripture and creating an entire treatise on the ideology of the Dispensational Head. Here you go:

You start out with the Lord Jesus, and then you have Adam and Noah. Thereafter come the dispensation heads. Then you come to the prophets, to apostles, to the elders of Israel, and to wise and good and sagacious men who have the spirit of light and understanding. Every dispensation head is a revealer of Christ for his day; every prophet is a witness of Christ; and every other prophet or apostle who comes is a reflection and an echo and an exponent of the dispensation head. All such come to echo to the world and to expound and unfold what God has revealed through the man who was appointed to give his eternal word to the world for that era. Such is the dispensation concept. (McConkie, Bruce R. This Generation Shall Have My Word through You.)

Now if you can grasp the significance of this concept, take and overlay it on the Lectures on Faith and then by following that pattern then you can fulfill the patterns of scripture and some day have the experiences that you seem to think others are not having and if you do, then most likely you will receive instruction to preserve the sacred nature of your experience because anybody who does have those types of experiences will do so because they believed and sustained the testimony of knowledge of the dispensational head - Joseph Smith - the only testimony that was required for this dispensation to be able to return to our Father in Heaven. It is his testimony that is echoed by all who follow after, and it is his testimony that leads to their own experiences of which you seem so critical for the fact they hold them sacred. And all who have such testimonies and experiences freely testify of Joseph's experience as that is the path through which all who legitimately receive their Savior will travel. But no one will get there except through the Lords servants and if you cannot sustain them - chances are you will kick against the pricks until you find yourself as Christ says "cut off from among the people".

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 12:11 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 10:12 am

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 7:39 am

brlenox wrote: ↑March 31st, 2019, 10:00 pm

I think you miss the point entirely, and it is tragic and sad. I could pretty much respond to most of the posts on this thread with my response but since you are the top dog who I would expect would cultivate a more faithful approach - I might as well just put it here. I watched you wobble your way through Denver and barely escape, then all of the called and elected who used to wander these venues and finally somehow you let them go as well , it appeared. I was proud of you if for nothing else your bullet dodging skills...but it is obvious you still don't seem to get it. Please consider:



What you state is better instruction in the "Charge to the Twelve" is old instruction. What is the value of having modern, living prophets if not to receive up to day and current living prophecy and direction. If you had seen Christ and he then stated "Go your way and see that you tell no man". Do you suspect that you would question his instruction to you at that time reminding him that it was inconsistent with the writings of Oliver Cowdery?

The greater need to be tried in the crucible of faith is one of the primary means of separating wheat and tares. It is sad to see how many cannot or will not hold to their faith. The rewards are just around the corner and so many are going to lament in sorrow that they did not hold on just a little bit longer.

Making excuses for current leadership is the default piano key many in the Church keep pounding. Conform every piece of evidence so it fits the narrative, even if it's clearly-opposing evidence. Conflation is the number one tool used to accomplish the confirmation bias.

The two ideas that are combined into one?

1) Don't cast pearls before swine. Yes, truly there are things too sacred to share openly, and we are asked to not share those.
2) Don't share an eye-witness account of divine messengers because, after all, it's a sacred "pearl".

Some sacred things, however, must be shared by prophets, seers, and revelators-- or true messengers. In fact, they are commanded! And the reason is explained in Moroni 7:

29 And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men.

30 For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness.

31 And the office of their ministry is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfil and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him.

32 And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men.

There is a ministry happening between heaven and man. We wouldn't have any of the Scriptures, FOR GOODNESS SAKE, if prophets didn't write down what was commanded them, including and ESPECIALLY their eye-witness accounts. What brought me into the Church, what piqued my interest in studying the BoM and praying to God was Joseph's testimony that he saw God the Father and Jesus Christ, that he was an eyewitness! Lehi sounds just like Joseph Smith. As does Nephi, as does his brother, as does King Benjamin, as does Alma, as does Mormon and Moroni. What do they all have in common? They had been in the presence of heavenly beings! They had been ministered to and they shared their eye witness account. Not EVERYTHING, mind you, but at the very least they shared their eyewitness testimony. The scripture above explains why. Why do angels appear to man?

1) To call men unto repentance,
2) To do the work of the covenants of the Father,
3) To prepare the way among the children of men that they may have faith in Christ,
4) That these chosen vessels, prophets, may bear testimony of Christ!

Dallin H. Oaks and anybody who agrees with him, inasmuch as he/ they denounces the sharing of such sacred experiences, actually OPPOSE the Father's work, which is to bring to pass the covenants of God.

And to put a fine point on it, these denouncers are leading people away into temptation. They are doing the devil's work. Jesus said so in this little-known, completely neglected commandment found in the Book of Mormon:

3 Nephi 18:25

25 And ye see that I have commanded that none of you should go away, but rather have commanded that ye should come unto me, that ye might feel and see; even so shall ye do unto the world; and whosoever breaketh this commandment suffereth himself to be led into temptation.

Christ commands those who have "felt" Him and "seen" Him, to go testify to the world that this is a COMMANDMENT!! Not a simple suggestion, but something we should actively be pursuing. We are to "come unto Him", to the intimate point where we thrust our hands into his side to feel the wound, and to feel the prints of the nails in His hands and in His feet, "that ye may know that I am the God of Israel," as He said.

Whoso does not keep this commandment (and certainly those who OPPOSE it), "suffers themselves to be led into temptation" of the evil one.

I didn't say it, BrLenox, Jesus Christ did.

Do you feel a need to square your unbeliefs with what Jesus clearly teaches in the BoM?


As a related aside, I recently taught this principle / the commandment to come unto Christ to feel and see Him, to a full house of LDS in the second period. Nobody in the packed chapel had even heard or could recognize this commandment. I know because I asked. This literal "commandment" is TOTALLY ignored in the Church and omitted from the leadership's preaching. You should ask yourself WHY. Why would the leaders ignore this teaching? I should do a post on this question.

The chilling point, the thing that should give you pause, that should cause you to "fear and tremble", if you will, is that the ignoring of this commandment, and certainly the opposition to this commandment result in your being subject to the power of the devil, including deception. And if you are deceived, but believe you are not deceived, then what an awful state you are in! Need I remind you that vanity and unbelief got the Church condemned, because they didn't take seriously the BoM, specifically by failing to DO what the book taught.

Please consider these words in your very own Book of Mormon. Please cease defending the devilish idea that messengers morally should not share their eyewitnesses of divinity. Such an idea comes not from God.

You are deeply entrenched in the idea that you see it correctly and that your interpretation of how the scriptures will be manifest and what the appearance of that manifestation will look like and yet there are obvious alternative considerations.

My first recommendation is reread the Lectures on Faith. It is basically a treatise on how to come back into the presence of Christ. You, yourself are actually partway in the process. You do not seem to be lacking in understanding that there is a Christ. You seem up to date on the fact that there are commandments and expectations and I think you have everything thing you need to make proper decisions and by appeals to your Father in Heaven, through the Holy Ghost you can find any of the pertinent pieces you may feel you are short on. That is the result of the verses you supplied being fulfilled in a means that has brought you to the point in which you now reside. Will more of the same type of information give you something you do not already have? OR should the objective be that you have enough outside insight and your objective and capacity is to magnify these things as you spiritually mature on your own to have your own spiritually significant experiences and insight?

Please Read Alma 12:28

28 And after God had appointed that these things should come unto man, behold, then he saw that it was expedient that man should know concerning the things whereof he had appointed unto them;

This is the lead in to the process that you are interpreting in your Moroni 7 verses. This is one more description of of why, and how the Father enacted the steps that find you with the knowledge you possess. How is it done?

Alma 12:29

29 Therefore he sent angels to converse with them, who caused men to behold of his glory.

Well now isn't this interesting. Hmmm. He says the plan was enacted from the very beginning that he would send angels to converse with men and these angels would be the source of the information relative to the plan of salvation.

Joseph Smith received angels. Angels provided him with the information that fulfills the edict of the next verse:

Alma 12:30

30 And they began from that time forth to call on his name; therefore God conversed with men, and made known unto them the plan of redemption, which had been prepared from the foundation of the world; and this he made known unto them according to their faith and repentance and their holy works.

Now in this conversing with the Lord as it is represented in these verses above do you suppose that meant he came down in person and chatted with men? Or do we recognize that the process of sending the angels who conversed with man and taught them to pray fulfills literally that expectation. In your prayers do you converse with God?

Alma 12:32

32 Therefore God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption, that they should not do evil, the penalty thereof being a second death, which was an everlasting death as to things pertaining unto righteousness; for on such the plan of redemption could have no power, for the works of justice could not be destroyed, according to the supreme goodness of God.

This is kind of your place at this point - commandments. You are in the middle of the process of the probationary test that finds you subject to commandments to allow the Lord to determine what kind of dude you are going to manifest being. You are in a very remarkable time as it is a time where a fullness of the gospel exists and those commandments that we are talking about are more clearly delineated in this dispensation than, I believe, ever before. I'm going to leave off of Alma 12 but one should read it for the understanding you are a tad weak on but I would like to examine just a couple of those commandments that we have received. Lets look at Doctrine and Covenants:

Doctrine and Covenants 1:"14

14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

These verses are a bit in reverse order of this process you outlined from Moroni 7 and that I have supported from Alma 12 but we will get to the exact same repeat of the process in the next couple of verses. However, I have never seen nor heard a rescinded voice or scripture for the above. It reigns supreme in scripture as the actual words of the Savior, Jesus Christ. When you converse with God in your prayers have you received instruction counter to this instruction? Have you been guided, contrary to the outline of Alma, Moroni, and now the Savior with instruction not given to the body of God's saints? Have angels appeared to you to declare a new commandment. If so, then you are wrong for not understanding how the process works and that you are not going to be directed against the Saviors own words. IF it were me, I would consider myself very foolish to think I was going to receive instruction counter to what the Savior provided. However, there are those who do so and the Savior recognized such. He described them in this fashion:

Doctrine and Covenants 1:16

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

"Every man walketh in his own way and after the image of his own God" - One might extrapolate this to include the idea that though I their God have spoken clearly to them concerning the men I will provide to convey the commandments to them which they know of by virtue of an angel (Moroni and others) which is according to Alma's outline and certainly embraces your Moroni 7 verses, one might extrapolate that that God that spoke to them so clearly and beyond debate declared that these servants speak with my voice, one might extrapolate that this might be construed as "walking in his own way". It certainly is in a different way than what he described, and indeed it may be that these walk after the image of a different God than Jesus Christ.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:17

17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;

I tickle myself on occasion as I have realized that all of these verses kind of come out chiastic even though from distinctly unique locations in scripture. We find now that the outline of Alma 12 as to how it is done with angels and teaching commandments is fulfilled in this ending verse. Angles did appear and did teach commandments which were provided for all of the inhabitants of the earth. It is because this process has worked that we find you here possessed of great understanding of the Savior and his plan of salvation.

No matter how you want to inject expectations and demand that Christ perform according to your expectations he has already said how you should receive his servants with a hint less judgmentalism, a touch more charity, and void of such hubris that dictates a false paradigm. Now I am going to close but before I do I leave you with a profound quote that in its way encapsulates your verses from Moroni, and my material from Alma and certainly the Doctrine and Covenants material. I hope you will consider it clearly and carefully. I spent months understanding this principle, writing and confirming in scripture and creating an entire treatise on the ideology of the Dispensational Head. Here you go:

You start out with the Lord Jesus, and then you have Adam and Noah. Thereafter come the dispensation heads. Then you come to the prophets, to apostles, to the elders of Israel, and to wise and good and sagacious men who have the spirit of light and understanding. Every dispensation head is a revealer of Christ for his day; every prophet is a witness of Christ; and every other prophet or apostle who comes is a reflection and an echo and an exponent of the dispensation head. All such come to echo to the world and to expound and unfold what God has revealed through the man who was appointed to give his eternal word to the world for that era. Such is the dispensation concept. (McConkie, Bruce R. This Generation Shall Have My Word through You.)

Now if you can grasp the significance of this concept, take and overlay it on the Lectures on Faith and then by following that pattern then you can fulfill the patterns of scripture and some day have the experiences that you seem to think others are not having and if you do, then most likely you will receive instruction to preserve the sacred nature of your experience because anybody who does have those types of experiences will do so because they believed and sustained the testimony of knowledge of the dispensational head - Joseph Smith - the only testimony that was required for this dispensation to be able to return to our Father in Heaven. It is his testimony that is echoed by all who follow after, and it is his testimony that leads to their own experiences of which you seem so critical for the fact they hold them sacred. And all who have such testimonies and experiences freely testify of Joseph's experience as that is the path through which all who legitimately receive their Savior will travel. But no one will get there except through the Lords servants and if you cannot sustain them - chances are you will kick against the pricks until you find yourself as Christ says "cut off from among the people".

Thank you for taking the time to pen those words.

Yes, Alma 12 does a wonderful job of stating how God sends angels to work with his chosen vessels.

It appears that you are saying people who have lived after Joseph Smith, are forbidden to share their eyewitness account of seeing the Lord, or an angel sent by the Lord, is that correct, because Joseph Smith's testimony is sufficient and further public testimonies of encounters with heaven are not required to be delivered?

…The next day, Sunday, meeting assembled in the Temple on a loose floor which had been arranged for carpenters' benches etc., the house was partly filled, the people being seated on work benches and other things. President Joseph Smith, [Jr.,] during the meeting, arose to speak upon an order he had given to Oliver Cowdery to seek out a book for a Church Record; for such must be kept; this had been complied with, a good book had been selected and it pleased President Smith.

The book was not paid for, but was to be returned to Painesville if it did not suit; and the Prophet said he would be glad to have the Saints donate the amount, about $12.50, and make the purchase, and keep the book; it being of good paper and thoroughly well bound. A man arose near the middle of the house and said he wanted the leaves counted to see if it would not be better to buy the paper by the ream, the difference being that we might put it in a newspaper, or something of the kind. Brother Joseph spoke out and said the devil could not raise his head there, but he would know him. I note this to show the little means with which the Church was obliged to commence the history of a people destined to become great. Truman O. Angell, 1810-1887 Autobiography (1810-1856) in "His Journal," Our Pioneer Heritage 10 (1967):195-213.

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:10 pm All good counsel, until we become entrenched in the idea that certain voices can never be errant, or that we can undoubtedly trust certain people by virtue of their position. Any person or group can fall.

Likewise, the notion that the church today must be "true and living" because Joseph was a prophet, God lives, and the Book of Mormon is the true word of God is not a reasonable assumption. This doesn't mean the Church today can't be "true and living". I'm merely saying that when a large portion of our testimony of today's church follows this logic, then we are on shaky ground. We are always one generation away from apostasy, and no one has ever been given a guarantee from God that they are immune.

We must come to Christ ourselves, plant his. his word deep into our hearts (the seed from Alma 32) or grasp firmly to the iron rod (his word and Spirit from Nephi's teachings). This word, his law, and our connection to him must become sealed on our hearts and rid us of all desire to do evil. Thus born of the Spirit ourselves, we can be empowered to follow the Holy Ghost and stop outsourcing our connection to God to others.

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:28 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:10 pm All good counsel, until we become entrenched in the idea that certain voices can never be errant, or that we can undoubtedly trust certain people by virtue of their position. Any person or group can fall.

Likewise, the notion that the church today must be "true and living" because Joseph was a prophet, God lives, and the Book of Mormon is the true word of God is not a reasonable assumption. This doesn't mean the Church today can't be "true and living". I'm merely saying that when a large portion of our testimony of today's church follows this logic, then we are on shaky ground. We are always one generation away from apostasy, and no one has ever been given a guarantee from God that they are immune.

We must come to Christ ourselves, plant his. his word deep into our hearts (the seed from Alma 32) or grasp firmly to the iron rod (his word and Spirit from Nephi's teachings). This word, his law, and our connection to him must become sealed on our hearts and rid us of all desire to do evil. Thus born of the Spirit ourselves, we can be empowered to follow the Holy Ghost and stop outsourcing our connection to God to others.

Descend from the clouds of ambiguity and generalization. Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk. Where's the beef in this burger you keep serving up?

As well no one has said or advocated any differently that you need to come unto Christ but I am sound and secure that you will not do so but that you understand your proper relationship in sustaining his chosen leaders instead of denigrating and minimalizing their role in the process of coming unto Christ.

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:28 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:10 pm All good counsel, until we become entrenched in the idea that certain voices can never be errant, or that we can undoubtedly trust certain people by virtue of their position. Any person or group can fall.

Likewise, the notion that the church today must be "true and living" because Joseph was a prophet, God lives, and the Book of Mormon is the true word of God is not a reasonable assumption. This doesn't mean the Church today can't be "true and living". I'm merely saying that when a large portion of our testimony of today's church follows this logic, then we are on shaky ground. We are always one generation away from apostasy, and no one has ever been given a guarantee from God that they are immune.

We must come to Christ ourselves, plant his. his word deep into our hearts (the seed from Alma 32) or grasp firmly to the iron rod (his word and Spirit from Nephi's teachings). This word, his law, and our connection to him must become sealed on our hearts and rid us of all desire to do evil. Thus born of the Spirit ourselves, we can be empowered to follow the Holy Ghost and stop outsourcing our connection to God to others.

Descend from the clouds of ambiguity and generalization. Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk. Where's the beef in this burger you keep serving up?

As well no one has said or advocated any differently that you need to come unto Christ but I am sound and secure that you will not do so but that you understand your proper relationship in sustaining his chosen leaders instead of denigrating and minimalizing their role in the process of coming unto Christ.

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:51 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:28 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:10 pm All good counsel, until we become entrenched in the idea that certain voices can never be errant, or that we can undoubtedly trust certain people by virtue of their position. Any person or group can fall.

Likewise, the notion that the church today must be "true and living" because Joseph was a prophet, God lives, and the Book of Mormon is the true word of God is not a reasonable assumption. This doesn't mean the Church today can't be "true and living". I'm merely saying that when a large portion of our testimony of today's church follows this logic, then we are on shaky ground. We are always one generation away from apostasy, and no one has ever been given a guarantee from God that they are immune.

We must come to Christ ourselves, plant his. his word deep into our hearts (the seed from Alma 32) or grasp firmly to the iron rod (his word and Spirit from Nephi's teachings). This word, his law, and our connection to him must become sealed on our hearts and rid us of all desire to do evil. Thus born of the Spirit ourselves, we can be empowered to follow the Holy Ghost and stop outsourcing our connection to God to others.

Descend from the clouds of ambiguity and generalization. Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk. Where's the beef in this burger you keep serving up?

As well no one has said or advocated any differently that you need to come unto Christ but I am sound and secure that you will not do so but that you understand your proper relationship in sustaining his chosen leaders instead of denigrating and minimalizing their role in the process of coming unto Christ.

My statement should be self evident, but it isn't to a people so steeped in tradition that that doctrine can't be separated from tradition.
But for one, when a President of a church assures that church that neither he nor anyone in his position after him will ever be permitted to lead that people astray.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:14

14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

Stahura wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:59 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:28 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:10 pm All good counsel, until we become entrenched in the idea that certain voices can never be errant, or that we can undoubtedly trust certain people by virtue of their position. Any person or group can fall.

Likewise, the notion that the church today must be "true and living" because Joseph was a prophet, God lives, and the Book of Mormon is the true word of God is not a reasonable assumption. This doesn't mean the Church today can't be "true and living". I'm merely saying that when a large portion of our testimony of today's church follows this logic, then we are on shaky ground. We are always one generation away from apostasy, and no one has ever been given a guarantee from God that they are immune.

We must come to Christ ourselves, plant his. his word deep into our hearts (the seed from Alma 32) or grasp firmly to the iron rod (his word and Spirit from Nephi's teachings). This word, his law, and our connection to him must become sealed on our hearts and rid us of all desire to do evil. Thus born of the Spirit ourselves, we can be empowered to follow the Holy Ghost and stop outsourcing our connection to God to others.

Descend from the clouds of ambiguity and generalization. Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk. Where's the beef in this burger you keep serving up?

As well no one has said or advocated any differently that you need to come unto Christ but I am sound and secure that you will not do so but that you understand your proper relationship in sustaining his chosen leaders instead of denigrating and minimalizing their role in the process of coming unto Christ.

Not to derail the thread into Polygamy, but I believe polygamy is an abomination according to the scriptures AND our modern commandments before they were changed years after the death of Joseph Smith and I believe that President's/Apostles of the Church spread a teaching that very well may have had an effect on the salvation of those that followed.

Again, don't want to derail into polygamy, I just wanted to give an answer to the question.

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:59 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:51 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:28 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:10 pm All good counsel, until we become entrenched in the idea that certain voices can never be errant, or that we can undoubtedly trust certain people by virtue of their position. Any person or group can fall.

Likewise, the notion that the church today must be "true and living" because Joseph was a prophet, God lives, and the Book of Mormon is the true word of God is not a reasonable assumption. This doesn't mean the Church today can't be "true and living". I'm merely saying that when a large portion of our testimony of today's church follows this logic, then we are on shaky ground. We are always one generation away from apostasy, and no one has ever been given a guarantee from God that they are immune.

We must come to Christ ourselves, plant his. his word deep into our hearts (the seed from Alma 32) or grasp firmly to the iron rod (his word and Spirit from Nephi's teachings). This word, his law, and our connection to him must become sealed on our hearts and rid us of all desire to do evil. Thus born of the Spirit ourselves, we can be empowered to follow the Holy Ghost and stop outsourcing our connection to God to others.

Descend from the clouds of ambiguity and generalization. Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk. Where's the beef in this burger you keep serving up?

As well no one has said or advocated any differently that you need to come unto Christ but I am sound and secure that you will not do so but that you understand your proper relationship in sustaining his chosen leaders instead of denigrating and minimalizing their role in the process of coming unto Christ.

My statement should be self evident, but it isn't to a people so steeped in tradition that that doctrine can't be separated from tradition.
But for one, when a President of a church assures that church that neither he nor anyone in his position after him will ever be permitted to lead that people astray.

I would be perfectly foolish to think as you do. Show me the verse, verses, quotes, ANTHING valid that rescinds this statement of the Lord:

Doctrine and Covenants 1:14

14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

It should be self-evident that until you can alter this decree you have absolutely nothing.

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:02 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:59 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:28 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:10 pm All good counsel, until we become entrenched in the idea that certain voices can never be errant, or that we can undoubtedly trust certain people by virtue of their position. Any person or group can fall.

Likewise, the notion that the church today must be "true and living" because Joseph was a prophet, God lives, and the Book of Mormon is the true word of God is not a reasonable assumption. This doesn't mean the Church today can't be "true and living". I'm merely saying that when a large portion of our testimony of today's church follows this logic, then we are on shaky ground. We are always one generation away from apostasy, and no one has ever been given a guarantee from God that they are immune.

We must come to Christ ourselves, plant his. his word deep into our hearts (the seed from Alma 32) or grasp firmly to the iron rod (his word and Spirit from Nephi's teachings). This word, his law, and our connection to him must become sealed on our hearts and rid us of all desire to do evil. Thus born of the Spirit ourselves, we can be empowered to follow the Holy Ghost and stop outsourcing our connection to God to others.

Descend from the clouds of ambiguity and generalization. Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk. Where's the beef in this burger you keep serving up?

As well no one has said or advocated any differently that you need to come unto Christ but I am sound and secure that you will not do so but that you understand your proper relationship in sustaining his chosen leaders instead of denigrating and minimalizing their role in the process of coming unto Christ.

Not to derail the thread into Polygamy, but I believe polygamy is an abomination according to the scriptures AND our modern commandments before they were changed years after the death of Joseph Smith and I believe that President's/Apostles of the Church spread a teaching that very well may have had an effect on the salvation of those that followed.

Again, don't want to derail into polygamy, I just wanted to give an answer to the question.

Nice try but you cannot call Elder Young a sinner until you assassinate Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It simply cannot work.

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:28 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:10 pm All good counsel, until we become entrenched in the idea that certain voices can never be errant, or that we can undoubtedly trust certain people by virtue of their position. Any person or group can fall.

Likewise, the notion that the church today must be "true and living" because Joseph was a prophet, God lives, and the Book of Mormon is the true word of God is not a reasonable assumption. This doesn't mean the Church today can't be "true and living". I'm merely saying that when a large portion of our testimony of today's church follows this logic, then we are on shaky ground. We are always one generation away from apostasy, and no one has ever been given a guarantee from God that they are immune.

We must come to Christ ourselves, plant his. his word deep into our hearts (the seed from Alma 32) or grasp firmly to the iron rod (his word and Spirit from Nephi's teachings). This word, his law, and our connection to him must become sealed on our hearts and rid us of all desire to do evil. Thus born of the Spirit ourselves, we can be empowered to follow the Holy Ghost and stop outsourcing our connection to God to others.

Descend from the clouds of ambiguity and generalization. Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk. Where's the beef in this burger you keep serving up?

As well no one has said or advocated any differently that you need to come unto Christ but I am sound and secure that you will not do so but that you understand your proper relationship in sustaining his chosen leaders instead of denigrating and minimalizing their role in the process of coming unto Christ.

I testify we have a living prophet today, who will not and cannot lead us astray. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can only wear dresses down to your ankles," then I would wear a dress down to my ankles. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can now wear pants to Church," then I would wear pants to Church. Whatever he says, that will I do, without question or concern. I know President Nelson loves us and is the mouthpiece for God, and we should follow him.

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another....

46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.

47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:31 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:28 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:10 pm All good counsel, until we become entrenched in the idea that certain voices can never be errant, or that we can undoubtedly trust certain people by virtue of their position. Any person or group can fall.

Likewise, the notion that the church today must be "true and living" because Joseph was a prophet, God lives, and the Book of Mormon is the true word of God is not a reasonable assumption. This doesn't mean the Church today can't be "true and living". I'm merely saying that when a large portion of our testimony of today's church follows this logic, then we are on shaky ground. We are always one generation away from apostasy, and no one has ever been given a guarantee from God that they are immune.

We must come to Christ ourselves, plant his. his word deep into our hearts (the seed from Alma 32) or grasp firmly to the iron rod (his word and Spirit from Nephi's teachings). This word, his law, and our connection to him must become sealed on our hearts and rid us of all desire to do evil. Thus born of the Spirit ourselves, we can be empowered to follow the Holy Ghost and stop outsourcing our connection to God to others.

Descend from the clouds of ambiguity and generalization. Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk. Where's the beef in this burger you keep serving up?

As well no one has said or advocated any differently that you need to come unto Christ but I am sound and secure that you will not do so but that you understand your proper relationship in sustaining his chosen leaders instead of denigrating and minimalizing their role in the process of coming unto Christ.

John the Baptist had the proper and humble perspective of himself. "I must decrease. He must increase." A true messenger will say he, the messenger, doesn't matter. It's Christ that matters. A true messenger won't accept fame, fortune, accolades, money, etc. He will RUN from such temptations. "Satan, get thee hence!" will be the way the true messenger will handle such temptations of the devil.

So you ask for specifics, where a man who purports to be a prophet leads us astray and that puts salvation at risk? Where's the beef, you ask?

The list is very, very long, and unpleasant to rehearse, but to grant your wish I will name a few things that are in fact indisputable.

How many of the "true" messengers (the ones who purport to be sent by God) among the Brethren have run from the perks, money, stipends, insurance, company cars, fame, perks, paid vacations, salary, stocks in many Church-owned and operated corporations, land, vacation homes, etc., etc.?

How many of these men proclaim to be lay ministers, working not for filthy lucre? How many eschew the publicity?

Zero is the answer.

How many are famous and popular in the eyes of the world? ALL of them. How many draw salary from the Church? All.

In other words, what evidence is there that they are not "hirelings"? Christ gave a parable about the hireling, didn't He?

If they are hirelings, then they aren't true. What evidence do they have which indicates they are "sent" by God? None. All they do is quote themselves over and over and state incessantly ONE SINGULAR thing --- their "keys". "We have the keys". Such is what the Catholics did and do. KEYS, KEYS, KEYS! At one point, in the early 1400's, if I recall, there were THREE popes! Yes 3! They all claimed to have the "authority" of God. Back then (and probably today), the church (meaning, the Holy Roman Catholic Church) was the largest land owner in Europe! Wealth and riches beyond imagination belonged to the church.

What is different between them and the Brethren who are on payroll?

Is there transparency? NONE whatsoever. That lack of transparency should be enough of a clue to wake even the most naive member up, because there simply isn't a good explanation as to why there's no transparency to the financial books of the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So you ask a "you've got to be kidding me" question. I've shared how the vineyard has become corrupted. It's money and power and fame, all temptations which Christ suffered in the desert. These hirelings have not turned the fame and fortune down. They willingly soak it up.

And a sign they lead us astray? They constantly quote each other and say they can't lead us astray, and exhort us to stay on the Good Ship Zion (paying our tribute to their corporation), alleging the Church is the kingdom of God and Zion when that couldn't be farther from the truth. The kingdom of God is real. Zion will be real. But they don't have a clue what it is, and frankly, like hirelings, do not care. Bottom line profits is what matters to them.

If it doesn't matter to them? Then why doesn't even ONE of them refuse the money and call out the institution for the corruption? Because they have made their choice. Doing that would require one to have the courage of Alma in a King Noah's court. That man would be openly persecuted and his reputation utterly destroyed, if he actually wouldn't be murdered first.

The beautiful thing is that the Truth does exist, and is out there for all to avail themselves of. God is no respecter of persons. He will draw nigh unto you if you draw nigh unto Him, and forsake the idolatry of the Brethren.

Let me end with sharing a testimony shared by a sister in the ward I visited this past Sunday. She, without the least bit of awareness of her cultlike idolatry said the following, and I paraphrase:

I testify we have a living prophet today, who will not and cannot lead us astray. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can only wear dresses down to your ankles," then I would wear a dress down to my ankles. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can now wear pants to Church," then I would wear pants to Church. Whatever he says, that will I do, without question or concern. I know President Nelson loves us and is the mouthpiece for God, and we should follow him.

That was the "Jim Jones" esque cult speech everyone in that sacrament meeting heard just two days ago. It was disgusting. How embarrassing! How grossly wicked and adulterous! And yet, she said she "KNEW" what she said to be true.

I wanted to quote this to her, but no doubt she would not and could not "hear" the message, but I'll quote it for somebody here who may benefit:

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another....

46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.

47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:50 pm

topcat wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 3:31 pm

brlenox wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:28 pm

caburnha wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2019, 2:10 pm All good counsel, until we become entrenched in the idea that certain voices can never be errant, or that we can undoubtedly trust certain people by virtue of their position. Any person or group can fall.

Likewise, the notion that the church today must be "true and living" because Joseph was a prophet, God lives, and the Book of Mormon is the true word of God is not a reasonable assumption. This doesn't mean the Church today can't be "true and living". I'm merely saying that when a large portion of our testimony of today's church follows this logic, then we are on shaky ground. We are always one generation away from apostasy, and no one has ever been given a guarantee from God that they are immune.

We must come to Christ ourselves, plant his. his word deep into our hearts (the seed from Alma 32) or grasp firmly to the iron rod (his word and Spirit from Nephi's teachings). This word, his law, and our connection to him must become sealed on our hearts and rid us of all desire to do evil. Thus born of the Spirit ourselves, we can be empowered to follow the Holy Ghost and stop outsourcing our connection to God to others.

Descend from the clouds of ambiguity and generalization. Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk. Where's the beef in this burger you keep serving up?

As well no one has said or advocated any differently that you need to come unto Christ but I am sound and secure that you will not do so but that you understand your proper relationship in sustaining his chosen leaders instead of denigrating and minimalizing their role in the process of coming unto Christ.

John the Baptist had the proper and humble perspective of himself. "I must decrease. He must increase." A true messenger will say he, the messenger, doesn't matter. It's Christ that matters. A true messenger won't accept fame, fortune, accolades, money, etc. He will RUN from such temptations. "Satan, get thee hence!" will be the way the true messenger will handle such temptations of the devil.

So you ask for specifics, where a man who purports to be a prophet leads us astray and that puts salvation at risk? Where's the beef, you ask?

The list is very, very long, and unpleasant to rehearse, but to grant your wish I will name a few things that are in fact indisputable.

How many of the "true" messengers (the ones who purport to be sent by God) among the Brethren have run from the perks, money, stipends, insurance, company cars, fame, perks, paid vacations, salary, stocks in many Church-owned and operated corporations, land, vacation homes, etc., etc.?

How many of these men proclaim to be lay ministers, working not for filthy lucre? How many eschew the publicity?

Zero is the answer.

How many are famous and popular in the eyes of the world? ALL of them. How many draw salary from the Church? All.

In other words, what evidence is there that they are not "hirelings"? Christ gave a parable about the hireling, didn't He?

If they are hirelings, then they aren't true. What evidence do they have which indicates they are "sent" by God? None. All they do is quote themselves over and over and state incessantly ONE SINGULAR thing --- their "keys". "We have the keys". Such is what the Catholics did and do. KEYS, KEYS, KEYS! At one point, in the early 1400's, if I recall, there were THREE popes! Yes 3! They all claimed to have the "authority" of God. Back then (and probably today), the church (meaning, the Holy Roman Catholic Church) was the largest land owner in Europe! Wealth and riches beyond imagination belonged to the church.

What is different between them and the Brethren who are on payroll?

Is there transparency? NONE whatsoever. That lack of transparency should be enough of a clue to wake even the most naive member up, because there simply isn't a good explanation as to why there's no transparency to the financial books of the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So you ask a "you've got to be kidding me" question. I've shared how the vineyard has become corrupted. It's money and power and fame, all temptations which Christ suffered in the desert. These hirelings have not turned the fame and fortune down. They willingly soak it up.

And a sign they lead us astray? They constantly quote each other and say they can't lead us astray, and exhort us to stay on the Good Ship Zion (paying our tribute to their corporation), alleging the Church is the kingdom of God and Zion when that couldn't be farther from the truth. The kingdom of God is real. Zion will be real. But they don't have a clue what it is, and frankly, like hirelings, do not care. Bottom line profits is what matters to them.

If it doesn't matter to them? Then why doesn't even ONE of them refuse the money and call out the institution for the corruption? Because they have made their choice. Doing that would require one to have the courage of Alma in a King Noah's court. That man would be openly persecuted and his reputation utterly destroyed, if he actually wouldn't be murdered first.

The beautiful thing is that the Truth does exist, and is out there for all to avail themselves of. God is no respecter of persons. He will draw nigh unto you if you draw nigh unto Him, and forsake the idolatry of the Brethren.

Let me end with sharing a testimony shared by a sister in the ward I visited this past Sunday. She, without the least bit of awareness of her cultlike idolatry said the following, and I paraphrase:

I testify we have a living prophet today, who will not and cannot lead us astray. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can only wear dresses down to your ankles," then I would wear a dress down to my ankles. If he were to say, "Sisters, you can now wear pants to Church," then I would wear pants to Church. Whatever he says, that will I do, without question or concern. I know President Nelson loves us and is the mouthpiece for God, and we should follow him.

That was the "Jim Jones" esque cult speech everyone in that sacrament meeting heard just two days ago. It was disgusting. How embarrassing! How grossly wicked and adulterous! And yet, she said she "KNEW" what she said to be true.

I wanted to quote this to her, but no doubt she would not and could not "hear" the message, but I'll quote it for somebody here who may benefit:

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another....

46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.

47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.

My question was "Show me specifics where a prophet led you astray in such a way as to place your salvation at risk." If any of what you said was truly an issue wherein have you been put at risk. Who removed your agency to be obedient? Who led you astray - other than yourself?