LDS Freedom Forum

Stahura wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 11:57 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 11:48 am

Stahura wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 11:02 am

kittycat51 wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 10:43 am It's always interesting how the OP's tend to wander off their original paths....

In getting back to the OP and in particular this quote:


I had this thought today as I was reading an OP posted by Kirkland concerning miracles at temple dedications. (which actually this doesn't have to do with a temple dedication but it still crossed my mind) Does anybody remember the April GC back in 1997 when they had a celebration of some sorts honoring the 150th anniversary of the Saints entering the Salt Lake Valley? Many of the talks in that conference were focused on those events. This is also when the Tabernacle Choir introduced their awesome song "Faith in Every Footstep". I remember the feelings I had during that conference; it was hard to contain my emotional experiences/feelings. My father was in the 70 at that time thus he was in attendance at the Tabernacle. He shared several amazing experiences that many of the 70 witnessed during that session. Without going into too much detail in light of President Oaks comment many of the 70 witnessed Angels in that conference.

One might say well they told each other, why not the world in general? Good question. Pearls before swine? Those that shared, shared with other 70 whom share same beliefs. My father shared with his family who also believe. It's the world in general that one must be cautious of? Maybe not just the world, but even to get up in GC and share something sacred, it is still being broadcast throughout the world via internet to those who would question and mock.

My simple 2 cents.

Maybe it's just me and my simple mind, but I see this as people are not going to have the type of conversion of Alma the younger or Paul. They were both antagonists against the Church and it was an angel who had to put a stop to their destructive ways and put them on the conversion path. None of the 12 needed that type of conversion. That DOESN'T mean they have not had OTHER types of experiences?

The 12 did have this type of conversion, look at Acts 2. They are remarkably different following this event. Peter was not converted until after this event, even though prior to this event he had seen Christ cure the blind, raise the dead, cause the blind to see etc. I know he's specifically talking about Angels appearing, but this line of reasoning has extended(In other talks by General Authorities) to the types of experiences you see in Mosiah 4 and Helaman 5, where the people were full of inexplicable joy and the power of the Holy Ghost filled them completely and caused them to sing the song of redeeming love.

Look at Mosiah 4. It's the exact same type of event that you see in Acts 2 except it happened to the body of the church, a bunch of random people like you and I.

Do you all believe that miracles/sacred experience are non-existent today just because the 12 (or other top Church leaders) don't share them?

Not only do people not share them, many people(Including leaders) explicitly say that you do not need those types of experience and that they are reserved for "Special People" like Alma, which simply isn't true.

It pains me greatly when I hear people tell me that only "Some people" are meant to have these experiences. Do you really think that only the most wicked people have the most amazing experiences with God? Heaven Forbid! You can have an Alma/Saul/Peter experience, if you don't believe that then shed that unbelief, it'll be the first step to getting even closer to the Savior than you thought you could ever be!

No pain with President Nelson in that department:

“When you spiritually stretch beyond anything you have ever done before, then His power will flow into you. And then you will understand the deep meaning of words we sing in the hymn “The Spirit of God”:
The Lord is extending the Saints’ understanding. …
The knowledge and power of God are expanding;
The veil o’er the earth is beginning to burst.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is filled with His power, which is available to every earnestly seeking daughter or son of God. It is my testimony that when we draw His power into our lives, both He and we will rejoice.”

And

“I urge you to stretch beyond your current spiritual ability to receive personal revelation, for the Lord has promised that “if thou shalt seek, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things--that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal.”

Oh, there is so much more that your Father in Heaven wants you to know. As Elder Neal A. Maxwell taught, “To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, it is clear that the Father and the Son are giving away the secrets of the universe!”

Both in conference to the entire body of the church.

I’ve quoted him elsewhere for similar things. I don’t paint them all with the same brush. I appreciate many of the things that President Nelson says, that doesn’t mean that other leaders haven’t discouraged members from doing what Nelson is encouraging members to do(although there are stories of Nelson ive read that suggest his idea of these “magnificent revelations” pale in comparison to the things we are discussing in this thread).

drtanner wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 12:03 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 11:57 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 11:48 am

Stahura wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 11:02 am


The 12 did have this type of conversion, look at Acts 2. They are remarkably different following this event. Peter was not converted until after this event, even though prior to this event he had seen Christ cure the blind, raise the dead, cause the blind to see etc. I know he's specifically talking about Angels appearing, but this line of reasoning has extended(In other talks by General Authorities) to the types of experiences you see in Mosiah 4 and Helaman 5, where the people were full of inexplicable joy and the power of the Holy Ghost filled them completely and caused them to sing the song of redeeming love.

Look at Mosiah 4. It's the exact same type of event that you see in Acts 2 except it happened to the body of the church, a bunch of random people like you and I.


Not only do people not share them, many people(Including leaders) explicitly say that you do not need those types of experience and that they are reserved for "Special People" like Alma, which simply isn't true.

It pains me greatly when I hear people tell me that only "Some people" are meant to have these experiences. Do you really think that only the most wicked people have the most amazing experiences with God? Heaven Forbid! You can have an Alma/Saul/Peter experience, if you don't believe that then shed that unbelief, it'll be the first step to getting even closer to the Savior than you thought you could ever be!

No pain with President Nelson in that department:

“When you spiritually stretch beyond anything you have ever done before, then His power will flow into you. And then you will understand the deep meaning of words we sing in the hymn “The Spirit of God”:
The Lord is extending the Saints’ understanding. …
The knowledge and power of God are expanding;
The veil o’er the earth is beginning to burst.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is filled with His power, which is available to every earnestly seeking daughter or son of God. It is my testimony that when we draw His power into our lives, both He and we will rejoice.”

And

“I urge you to stretch beyond your current spiritual ability to receive personal revelation, for the Lord has promised that “if thou shalt seek, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things--that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal.”

Oh, there is so much more that your Father in Heaven wants you to know. As Elder Neal A. Maxwell taught, “To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, it is clear that the Father and the Son are giving away the secrets of the universe!”

Both in conference to the entire body of the church.

I’ve quoted him elsewhere for similar things. I don’t paint them all with the same brush. I appreciate many of the things that President Nelson says, that doesn’t mean that other leaders haven’t discouraged members from doing what Nelson is encouraging members to do(although there are stories of Nelson ive read that suggest his idea of these “magnificent revelations” pale in comparison to the things we are discussing in this thread).

If you have a recent conference talk where leaders are discouraging members from the things President Nelson is encouraging it would have been one I must have looked over or you interpret completely different.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 12:07 pm

drtanner wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 12:03 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 11:57 am

drtanner wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 11:48 am

No pain with President Nelson in that department:

“When you spiritually stretch beyond anything you have ever done before, then His power will flow into you. And then you will understand the deep meaning of words we sing in the hymn “The Spirit of God”:
The Lord is extending the Saints’ understanding. …
The knowledge and power of God are expanding;
The veil o’er the earth is beginning to burst.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is filled with His power, which is available to every earnestly seeking daughter or son of God. It is my testimony that when we draw His power into our lives, both He and we will rejoice.”

And

“I urge you to stretch beyond your current spiritual ability to receive personal revelation, for the Lord has promised that “if thou shalt seek, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things--that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal.”

Oh, there is so much more that your Father in Heaven wants you to know. As Elder Neal A. Maxwell taught, “To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, it is clear that the Father and the Son are giving away the secrets of the universe!”

Both in conference to the entire body of the church.

I’ve quoted him elsewhere for similar things. I don’t paint them all with the same brush. I appreciate many of the things that President Nelson says, that doesn’t mean that other leaders haven’t discouraged members from doing what Nelson is encouraging members to do(although there are stories of Nelson ive read that suggest his idea of these “magnificent revelations” pale in comparison to the things we are discussing in this thread).

If you have a recent conference talk where leaders are discouraging members from the things President Nelson is encouraging it would have been one I must have looked over or you interpret completely different.

Define "recent" for me so I know the timeline you are looking for.

In addition to that, I include certain statements that are implicit, not just explicit.

Christ is my anchor and I've found what I need to do to have the Holy Ghost in my life, because of this I don't really go around compiling lists of "evidence" to throw at people because "Bible Bashing" never amounts to anything and I really don't care about being "Right". I think back and forth conversations are valuable and both sides can benefit from it if both sides are going about it in the right way though.

As I don't have a compiled list, I'll have to go and find the exact talks that I recall so that I can post it for you and see what you have to say about it.

drtanner wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 12:20 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 12:07 pm

drtanner wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 12:03 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 11:57 am

I’ve quoted him elsewhere for similar things. I don’t paint them all with the same brush. I appreciate many of the things that President Nelson says, that doesn’t mean that other leaders haven’t discouraged members from doing what Nelson is encouraging members to do(although there are stories of Nelson ive read that suggest his idea of these “magnificent revelations” pale in comparison to the things we are discussing in this thread).

If you have a recent conference talk where leaders are discouraging members from the things President Nelson is encouraging it would have been one I must have looked over or you interpret completely different.

Define "recent" for me so I know the timeline you are looking for.

In addition to that, I include certain statements that are implicit, not just explicit.

Christ is my anchor and I've found what I need to do to have the Holy Ghost in my life, because of this I don't really go around compiling lists of "evidence" to throw at people because "Bible Bashing" never amounts to anything and I really don't care about being "Right". I think back and forth conversations are valuable and both sides can benefit from it if both sides are going about it in the right way though.

As I don't have a compiled list, I'll have to go and find the exact talks that I recall so that I can post it for you and see what you have to say about it.

Having served in the south I wouldn’t label substantiating a claim on a discussion thread as bible bashing and hope my post doesn’t have that tone. Sometimes we assign tones which makes a discussion difficult, but believe we are yoked in our desire for ourselves and others to have Christ as an anchor.

I also agree back n forths can be extremely valuable as Joseph taught:

“By proving contraries the truth is made manifest”

drtanner wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 1:37 pm Given that conference is coming up and light of the discussion on Elder McConkie and encouragement from the leaders to go on and obtain greater blessings I thought it ironic and meaningful to the discussion that he added verse 4 as the capstone of the other 3 versus in the hymn Come, Listen to a Prophet’s Voice penned by Joseph Murdock

1. Come, listen to a prophet’s voice,
And hear the word of God,
And in the way of truth rejoice,
And sing for joy aloud.
We’ve found the way the prophets went
Who lived in days of yore.
Another prophet now is sent
This knowledge to restore.

2. The gloom of sullen darkness spread
Thru earth’s extended space
Is banished by our living Head,
And God has shown his face.
Thru erring schemes in days now past
The world has gone astray;
Yet Saints of God have found at last
The straight and narrow way.

3. ’Tis not in man they put their trust
Nor on his arm rely.
Full well assured, all are accursed
Who Jesus Christ deny.
The Savior to his people saith,
“Let all my words obey,
And signs shall follow living faith,
Down to the latest day.”

4. Then heed the words of truth and light
That flow from fountains pure.
Yea, keep His law with all thy might
Till thine election’s sure,
Till thou shalt hear the holy voice
Assure eternal reign,
While joy and cheer attend thy choice,
As one who shall obtain.

Jamescm wrote: ↑April 9th, 2019, 8:51 am To those who feel as though the Lord's prophet and apostles contradict past so-called in being cautious with the sharing of impressive or extraordinary spiritual experiences, I suggest considering the exceptions that sometimes occur in the Church.

-Where Christ once counselled His apostles to travel without purse or scrip, He later retracted this and told them specifically to prepare materially for their journeying at that point.

-It is apparent that fasting was not performed by His disciples during His mortal ministry, though commonplace before and afterward.

-What amounts to "The Word of Wisdom" or other commandments have varied through history to suit differing societies and environments. "A little wine is okay, cloven footed animals are absolutely not. A little pork is okay, alcohol is absolutely not. Don't mix fabrics, no word on tea. Don't care about fabrics, don't drink tea." "Does the garment come to the ankles and wrists, or knees and elbows?"

A stumbling block for me for a while was this one, I think it occurred in the 60s without double-checking:
"Don't vote in favor of hosting the missile defense system in Utah."
It baffled me that this occurred. We are commanded to defend our families and nation; righteous people have been so commanded since ancient times. Why would we not prepare for it amongst the primary body of saints? The reason they gave was something like this:
"It is ironic and sad that those who publish peace to the earth would prepare for war."

... Which is completely stupid. Of course we love peace, that's why we prepare for war. We love peace so much that we're willing to do what it takes to maintain it when the devil and his tyranny threaten it, for he and the governments of the earth he runs guarantee a lack of peace.

I realized, after some reflection, that I don't know the future. That reason is still stupid, and it may be merely the general authorities' best guess at the time as to why, but suppose such a site would have made the main body of the Church a target in the future. The Lord would know it's necessary not to have it there so that the saints may more easily migrate and reclaim Jackson County, Missouri when the time comes. Additionally, perhaps the almost equally baffling of accepting the NSA hosting site works to that purpose-invaders wouldn't want to destroy that data, they'd want to preserve it to exploit it.

I don't know this, of course, it is only a guess. But the point I'm making is that sometimes things change. Jesus is the Christ, we are spirit children of Heavenly Father, freedom is paramount in the premortal, mortal, and postmortal experiences, male and female are created to form families. Things like that obviously don't change. But circumstances on Earth may necessitate adjustments to exactly how we live. "Pearls before swine with modern communications technology?" That could be simply another stupid and best-guess excuse, but the actual direction by the Savior to be cautious in sharing may be fully valid despite it.

Keep your eyes on the big picture; priest and king, priestess and queen. I don't care whether I was "allowed to drink tea or wine" or to be introverted or extroverted in my sharing of spiritual experiences during the short time before then.

caburnha wrote: ↑April 9th, 2019, 10:15 am

Maybe you're right. Or maybe the ministering of angels and miraculous experiences have all but ceased (like Elder Oaks suggested). In such case, I suggest we might want to consider the possibility that we aren't as great as we assume we are, but might actually be fulfilling prophecy in not the greatest of ways...

shadow wrote: ↑April 9th, 2019, 10:44 am

caburnha wrote: ↑April 9th, 2019, 10:15 am

Maybe you're right. Or maybe the ministering of angels and miraculous experiences have all but ceased (like Elder Oaks suggested). In such case, I suggest we might want to consider the possibility that we aren't as great as we assume we are, but might actually be fulfilling prophecy in not the greatest of ways...

You're just making stuff up. Elder Oaks didn't suggest anything of the sorts. He said keep those things sacred, meaning that he knows they happen but they shouldn't be blabbered about.

64 Remember that that which cometh from above is sacred, and must be spoken with care, and by constraint of the Spirit; and in this there is no condemnation

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑April 9th, 2019, 11:08 am

How is this not saying these things have ceased?

• “Don’t cast your pearls before swine.”

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑April 9th, 2019, 11:08 am

"I don't think you're likely to have that kind of experience that Alma the Younger had. I don't think we're going to get it like Paul did where an angel appeared to him, like Alma did. I’ve never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience..."

shadow wrote: ↑April 9th, 2019, 11:14 am

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑April 9th, 2019, 11:08 am

How is this not saying these things have ceased?

"In addition, while some early apostles and other members of the church have had the sublime spiritual experience of seeing the Savior and some have made a public record of this, in the circumstances of today we are counseled not to speak of our most sacred spiritual experiences, otherwise with modern technology that can broadcast something all over the world, a remark made in a sacred and a private setting can be said abroad in violation of the Savior's commandment not to cast our pearls before swine." -Oaks

shadow wrote: ↑April 9th, 2019, 11:16 am Those experiences aren't common in the scriptures either. Yes, they happened and they probably happen occasionally today too, but it's not nor has it ever been common.

shadow wrote: ↑April 9th, 2019, 11:16 am

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑April 9th, 2019, 11:08 am

"I don't think you're likely to have that kind of experience that Alma the Younger had. I don't think we're going to get it like Paul did where an angel appeared to him, like Alma did. I’ve never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience..."

Those experiences aren't common in the scriptures either. Yes, they happened and they probably happen occasionally today too, but it's not nor has it ever been common.