Data on Unvaccinated Children

[Davka]

I am a professor and thus my life calling and career is teaching science.

Well then you above everybody else should know that science is never set in stone. Science is not a body of knowledge – it’s a dynamic, ongoing reconfiguration of knowledge and must be free to change. The accepted views of science knowledge can change over time, because the world constantly changes. Changes can result from new science observations, but can also be affected by social, political or religious convictions. The fact that science changes is a good thing. It's a sign of progress. Science changes in the light of new evidence.

There are plenty of studies that do show the dangers of vaccines.

I agree with your initial statements but partway through the paragraph things go south. I do not know what you mean by "accepted views". Do scientists ever alter, change or disgard hypothesis? Of course, that is science. I don't know what you mean by "world constantly changes" from a scientific perspective. Can you give me an example. Like say before 1800 gravity worked one way but then because of "social political or religious convictions" it now works another way? I think we are confused about what science means.

For sake of argument lets say there are "plenty" of studies that shows the dangers of vaccines. There are also plenty more studies that dispute those dangers. Which do you believe? Wouldn't it be good if there was some very high level organization of the worlds best scientists that were not directly involved in the studies, and had no financial considerations, and would take a look at the whole conglomerate of such studies, carefully evaluating the methods, throwing out the questionable study and looking for what the preponderance of evidence of all available studies reveal. Luckily there is such a body, cause that is how science works. And guess what there conclusion is?

http://nationalacademies.org/hmd/Report ... utism.aspx

How do you know they had no financial considerations?

Answer: Because they said so.

Again, billions of dollars on the line. Do you truly believe it is that hard to pay off a panel of a handful of scientists to give their stamp of approval.

I get the sense that you don't really believe what the Book of Mormon teaches about secret combinations, aka conspiracies.

[I AM]

I know this forum is a very small highly non representative sample of mormonism. So I shouldn't read to much into what I read here. It just boggles me though that there is a strain, regardless of how small, of science deniers in this church. The glory of God is intelligence. Outside of temples and meeting houses the single greatest expenditure of the church budget is universities. We are an academic people. I am a professor and thus my life calling and career is teaching science. So maybe I take it too personally. But I cannot believe the anti science bias on this forum. I just read above that it is hard to find the truth about vaccines and autism because it is hidden so well. On the contrary go to google, type "national academy sciences vaccine safety" for the definitive word on current science. If you do not understand what the national academy is then you have some learning to do before you should pretend to teach others about science.

--------------

OH ! - so now we find out why your comments in this forum are the way they are.
"I know this forum is a very small highly non representative sample of mormonism. So I shouldn't read to much into what I read here. "
"The glory of God is intelligence"
"I am a professor"

why don't you take off your proud crown of glory that you put on when you became a professor
and study what is really meant by "The glory of God is intelligence"
and believe me - it's not what you learn in school.

D&C 93
36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

[justme]

I know this forum is a very small highly non representative sample of mormonism. So I shouldn't read to much into what I read here. It just boggles me though that there is a strain, regardless of how small, of science deniers in this church. The glory of God is intelligence. Outside of temples and meeting houses the single greatest expenditure of the church budget is universities. We are an academic people. I am a professor and thus my life calling and career is teaching science. So maybe I take it too personally. But I cannot believe the anti science bias on this forum. I just read above that it is hard to find the truth about vaccines and autism because it is hidden so well. On the contrary go to google, type "national academy sciences vaccine safety" for the definitive word on current science. If you do not understand what the national academy is then you have some learning to do before you should pretend to teach others about science.

Science is great. As a scientist, I am sure you can appreciate the value of a double-blind, placebo controlled study.
Well guess what. A study such as this has never been conducted on vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children. Ever. Okay, actual husband is îu. studied the flu shot in China. But you probably don't want to hear the results. It would burst your bubble.

As a scientist, you know it is possible to make a study show whatever you want it to show by manipulating controls, eliminating/including specific data, or just flat out fabrication of results. This is how "science" is bought. Have you ever heard how the sugar industry was behind the studies showing how bad sugar was for you back in the 80s? Totally false, totally bought...but, but, but it is in a science journal so it must be true!

I'm all for science when it is actual science. What I am not for is lies masquerading as science...lousy or manipulative experiment design that claims to prove something it doesn't really prove that makes people think they are informed because they read the headline in the newspaper but didn't actually read or analyze the study.

I ask you again, have you actually read any studies cited by the anti-vaxx advocates? Because, as an open-minded scientist, you should be willing to gather all pertinent data before making a judgement call.

Every thing I read from anti vaccers is dismissed within seconds of a few key strokes on google. Like the above statement about never, ever has there been a double blind placebo study. But oh well.

I'm sorry about your sensitivities. I don't know the details of your life that has led to your world view. But I cannot give into science denial.

Related question: How do you all feel about so much of your tithing dollars going to pay scientists at the church universities to very strongly teach the youth of the church about evolution, climate change, vaccines etc. Polls at BYU-Provo are showing that we are finally making headway in the church on our youth accepting evolution.

[I AM]

I know this forum is a very small highly non representative sample of mormonism. So I shouldn't read to much into what I read here. It just boggles me though that there is a strain, regardless of how small, of science deniers in this church. The glory of God is intelligence. Outside of temples and meeting houses the single greatest expenditure of the church budget is universities. We are an academic people. I am a professor and thus my life calling and career is teaching science. So maybe I take it too personally. But I cannot believe the anti science bias on this forum. I just read above that it is hard to find the truth about vaccines and autism because it is hidden so well. On the contrary go to google, type "national academy sciences vaccine safety" for the definitive word on current science. If you do not understand what the national academy is then you have some learning to do before you should pretend to teach others about science.

Science is great. As a scientist, I am sure you can appreciate the value of a double-blind, placebo controlled study.
Well guess what. A study such as this has never been conducted on vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children. Ever. Okay, actual husband is îu. studied the flu shot in China. But you probably don't want to hear the results. It would burst your bubble.

As a scientist, you know it is possible to make a study show whatever you want it to show by manipulating controls, eliminating/including specific data, or just flat out fabrication of results. This is how "science" is bought. Have you ever heard how the sugar industry was behind the studies showing how bad sugar was for you back in the 80s? Totally false, totally bought...but, but, but it is in a science journal so it must be true!

I'm all for science when it is actual science. What I am not for is lies masquerading as science...lousy or manipulative experiment design that claims to prove something it doesn't really prove that makes people think they are informed because they read the headline in the newspaper but didn't actually read or analyze the study.

I ask you again, have you actually read any studies cited by the anti-vaxx advocates? Because, as an open-minded scientist, you should be willing to gather all pertinent data before making a judgement call.

Every thing I read from anti vaccers is dismissed within seconds of a few key strokes on google.

------------------
no wonder.
you actually trust one of the most evil and biggest secret combinations in the World.
that are against everything we as Christians stand for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MECcIJW67-M

https://youtu.be/vZ4ASWSBtQc?t=191


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50469&p=907061&hili ... le#p907061

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50469&p=907054&hili ... 3F#p907054

[setyourselffree]

I know this forum is a very small highly non representative sample of mormonism. So I shouldn't read to much into what I read here. It just boggles me though that there is a strain, regardless of how small, of science deniers in this church. The glory of God is intelligence. Outside of temples and meeting houses the single greatest expenditure of the church budget is universities. We are an academic people. I am a professor and thus my life calling and career is teaching science. So maybe I take it too personally. But I cannot believe the anti science bias on this forum. I just read above that it is hard to find the truth about vaccines and autism because it is hidden so well. On the contrary go to google, type "national academy sciences vaccine safety" for the definitive word on current science. If you do not understand what the national academy is then you have some learning to do before you should pretend to teach others about science.

--------------

OH ! - so now we find out why your comments in this forum are the way they are.
"I know this forum is a very small highly non representative sample of mormonism. So I shouldn't read to much into what I read here. "
"The glory of God is intelligence"
"I am a professor"

why don't you take off your proud crown of glory that you put on when you became a professor
and study what is really meant by "The glory of God is intelligence"
and believe me - it's not what you learn in school.

D&C 93
36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

Sorry man or woman but no one will take you seriously on this site when you blasphem his name everyday on this site.

[justme]

A Pew Research Center Poll shows 82 percent of adults think that healthy kids should be required to have MMR vaccine in order to attend school. 88 percent thinks that the benefits of MMR vaccine outweighs the danger.

Though there is a vocal minority here I am glad to hear that the vast majority of American adults feel otherwise.

[tdj]

According to a large study reported in JAMA https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/f ... le/2275444

There is no difference in autism rates for unvaccinated vs vaccinated. This agrees with a dozen previous studies.

So the question becomes do we go with a study in the Journal of the American Medical Association or a Youtube video. You can make your choice. I have made mine.

As have I. Sounds like we gathered quite opposite ideas from the same information.

Question is, who pays for the research done at the JAMA?

You must be a big fan of Alex Jones. He just admitted today he has pyhcosis. People love conspiracy theories. Until things get real and they lose everything because of lawsuits. Juliet has admitted several times on here she suffers from psychosis. Not that Juliet is a bad person. I just trust actual real research rather than some youtube videos.

I've heard the name, but don't know much else about him.

You're better off trust me. I quit watching him when he went off the deep end and basically talked all tough to Piers Morgan. Jones got all puffed up and said how there was going to be another revolution if anyone tried to take the citizens guns away. I agree for the most part, with WHAT he says. I just wish he wouldn't say them. He's a tough talking, blustering blow hard who couldn't back it up if his life depended on it. He has no clue at all about how difficult an actual revolution would be. And he's hardly in the physical condition necessary to be in one. He's quite pathetic really. That and he's got a very short temper. I've seen him being interviewed where you can just see him struggling to keep it together. If he has that kind of issue with his temper in public when the cameras are rolling, then I shudder to think what's going on behind closed doors, if he has a wife and kids.

He also is a big supporter of the theory that Sandy Hook is just a big hoax. While I admit certain aspects of the Sandy Hook thing are rather odd, and curious, I'm reluctant to jump on that bandwagon. But oh, how I wish it was a hoax.

[Davka]

I know this forum is a very small highly non representative sample of mormonism. So I shouldn't read to much into what I read here. It just boggles me though that there is a strain, regardless of how small, of science deniers in this church. The glory of God is intelligence. Outside of temples and meeting houses the single greatest expenditure of the church budget is universities. We are an academic people. I am a professor and thus my life calling and career is teaching science. So maybe I take it too personally. But I cannot believe the anti science bias on this forum. I just read above that it is hard to find the truth about vaccines and autism because it is hidden so well. On the contrary go to google, type "national academy sciences vaccine safety" for the definitive word on current science. If you do not understand what the national academy is then you have some learning to do before you should pretend to teach others about science.

Science is great. As a scientist, I am sure you can appreciate the value of a double-blind, placebo controlled study.
Well guess what. A study such as this has never been conducted on vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children. Ever. Okay, actual husband is îu. studied the flu shot in China. But you probably don't want to hear the results. It would burst your bubble.

As a scientist, you know it is possible to make a study show whatever you want it to show by manipulating controls, eliminating/including specific data, or just flat out fabrication of results. This is how "science" is bought. Have you ever heard how the sugar industry was behind the studies showing how bad sugar was for you back in the 80s? Totally false, totally bought...but, but, but it is in a science journal so it must be true!

I'm all for science when it is actual science. What I am not for is lies masquerading as science...lousy or manipulative experiment design that claims to prove something it doesn't really prove that makes people think they are informed because they read the headline in the newspaper but didn't actually read or analyze the study.

I ask you again, have you actually read any studies cited by the anti-vaxx advocates? Because, as an open-minded scientist, you should be willing to gather all pertinent data before making a judgement call.

Every thing I read from anti vaccers is dismissed within seconds of a few key strokes on google. Like the above statement about never, ever has there been a double blind placebo study. But oh well.

I'm sorry about your sensitivities. I don't know the details of your life that has led to your world view. But I cannot give into science denial.

Related question: How do you all feel about so much of your tithing dollars going to pay scientists at the church universities to very strongly teach the youth of the church about evolution, climate change, vaccines etc. Polls at BYU-Provo are showing that we are finally making headway in the church on our youth accepting evolution.

You sure are good at ignoring straight forward questions.

And you are wrong. By the CDC's own admission there has never been a double blind saline placebo controlled study of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children. They say it would be unethical because it would leave a random group of children unvaccinated. Sure there have been studies that use the vaccine itself minus the antigen as a control, or that just cut one vaccine out of the line up and then say "see? No difference!" Which if the other ingredients in the vaccine are causing the effects, rather than the antigen, or the effects come from cumulative exposure to vaccines rather than just one, well you can see how this would provide inaccurate results.

And golly, you seem very certain that I am an uneducated hippie living in a compound singing kumbaya. Actually, I graduated from the Lord's University Magna Cum Laude and with University Honors. Class of 2008. My husband, who reluctantly began listening to the information I was finding on vaccines and now shares my stance, graduated from the same tithing-subsidized university with a degree in Chemical Engineering. Interestingly enough, he now works in upper leadership for the biggest division of a Fortune 100-sized company. No lack of scientific background there.

I loved my BYU experience. More than anything I loved that I learned to think critically and independently. In fact, at my Honors thesis defense, the professor acting as my referee noted that she could tell from reading through my portfolio that included work from my Freshman year through my Senior, that my thinking had become much less black and white and more gray...that during those 4 years, my thinking had developed to recognize that everything is not so cut and dried. I am grateful for those skills more than any other aspect of my education. You make it sound like the goal of BYU is to turn out graduates who accept without question the philosophies of man. Just because BYU is church owned doesn't' mean the students should believe everything their professors "teach" them. God gave us each a brain of our own for a reason.

Oh, and by the way, I totally believe in evolution.

I know, shocker.

[I AM]

According to a large study reported in JAMA https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/f ... le/2275444

There is no difference in autism rates for unvaccinated vs vaccinated. This agrees with a dozen previous studies.

So the question becomes do we go with a study in the Journal of the American Medical Association or a Youtube video. You can make your choice. I have made mine.

As have I. Sounds like we gathered quite opposite ideas from the same information.

Question is, who pays for the research done at the JAMA?

You must be a big fan of Alex Jones. He just admitted today he has pyhcosis. People love conspiracy theories. Until things get real and they lose everything because of lawsuits. Juliet has admitted several times on here she suffers from psychosis. Not that Juliet is a bad person. I just trust actual real research rather than some youtube videos.

--------------
uh-oh here's another one

[Michelle]

I know this forum is a very small highly non representative sample of mormonism. So I shouldn't read to much into what I read here. It just boggles me though that there is a strain, regardless of how small, of science deniers in this church. The glory of God is intelligence. Outside of temples and meeting houses the single greatest expenditure of the church budget is universities. We are an academic people. I am a professor and thus my life calling and career is teaching science. So maybe I take it too personally. But I cannot believe the anti science bias on this forum. I just read above that it is hard to find the truth about vaccines and autism because it is hidden so well. On the contrary go to google, type "national academy sciences vaccine safety" for the definitive word on current science. If you do not understand what the national academy is then you have some learning to do before you should pretend to teach others about science.

Science is great. As a scientist, I am sure you can appreciate the value of a double-blind, placebo controlled study.
Well guess what. A study such as this has never been conducted on vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children. Ever. Okay, actual husband is îu. studied the flu shot in China. But you probably don't want to hear the results. It would burst your bubble.

As a scientist, you know it is possible to make a study show whatever you want it to show by manipulating controls, eliminating/including specific data, or just flat out fabrication of results. This is how "science" is bought. Have you ever heard how the sugar industry was behind the studies showing how bad sugar was for you back in the 80s? Totally false, totally bought...but, but, but it is in a science journal so it must be true!

I'm all for science when it is actual science. What I am not for is lies masquerading as science...lousy or manipulative experiment design that claims to prove something it doesn't really prove that makes people think they are informed because they read the headline in the newspaper but didn't actually read or analyze the study.

I ask you again, have you actually read any studies cited by the anti-vaxx advocates? Because, as an open-minded scientist, you should be willing to gather all pertinent data before making a judgement call.

Every thing I read from anti vaccers is dismissed within seconds of a few key strokes on google. Like the above statement about never, ever has there been a double blind placebo study. But oh well.

I'm sorry about your sensitivities. I don't know the details of your life that has led to your world view. But I cannot give into science denial.

Related question: How do you all feel about so much of your tithing dollars going to pay scientists at the church universities to very strongly teach the youth of the church about evolution, climate change, vaccines etc. Polls at BYU-Provo are showing that we are finally making headway in the church on our youth accepting evolution.

I agree with Davka's comment. Why not just look at the facts impartially? You have allowed someone else to decide what you believe without "knowing for yourself." What could be the harm in researching it for yourself? I would highly recommend starting with all of the package inserts for the vaccines. (I saw you teased me about this in a different post, but they actually were easier to find in the past. You can draw your own conclusions about why that has changed. )Spend some time on the CDC.gov website and then visit https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed. Do these websites meet your criteria for "real science?" The great thing is the dangers are actually exposed there. They aren't really hidden, just buried in a mountain of data.

As for your second comment. I have a lot to say about that, but I won't.

Let me just say a few things:

1. There is a reason why God chose an unlearned boy to restore the gospel of Jesus Christ to the earth. Unlearning untruth is really hard.

2. I think you underestimate the education level of the forum members.

3. I have taught my children that just because someone says something at church, or at BYU, doesn't make it true. We measure all truth against what has been said by the prophets, the scriptures and the Holy Ghost. We know full well that the wheat and tares are growing together.

[Michelle]

Nice. I just saw that Davka addressed many of the same points I did in my last post, but she did it better. Thanks Davka!

[setyourselffree]

I know this forum is a very small highly non representative sample of mormonism. So I shouldn't read to much into what I read here. It just boggles me though that there is a strain, regardless of how small, of science deniers in this church. The glory of God is intelligence. Outside of temples and meeting houses the single greatest expenditure of the church budget is universities. We are an academic people. I am a professor and thus my life calling and career is teaching science. So maybe I take it too personally. But I cannot believe the anti science bias on this forum. I just read above that it is hard to find the truth about vaccines and autism because it is hidden so well. On the contrary go to google, type "national academy sciences vaccine safety" for the definitive word on current science. If you do not understand what the national academy is then you have some learning to do before you should pretend to teach others about science.

Science is great. As a scientist, I am sure you can appreciate the value of a double-blind, placebo controlled study.
Well guess what. A study such as this has never been conducted on vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children. Ever. Okay, actual husband is îu. studied the flu shot in China. But you probably don't want to hear the results. It would burst your bubble.

As a scientist, you know it is possible to make a study show whatever you want it to show by manipulating controls, eliminating/including specific data, or just flat out fabrication of results. This is how "science" is bought. Have you ever heard how the sugar industry was behind the studies showing how bad sugar was for you back in the 80s? Totally false, totally bought...but, but, but it is in a science journal so it must be true!

I'm all for science when it is actual science. What I am not for is lies masquerading as science...lousy or manipulative experiment design that claims to prove something it doesn't really prove that makes people think they are informed because they read the headline in the newspaper but didn't actually read or analyze the study.

I ask you again, have you actually read any studies cited by the anti-vaxx advocates? Because, as an open-minded scientist, you should be willing to gather all pertinent data before making a judgement call.

Every thing I read from anti vaccers is dismissed within seconds of a few key strokes on google. Like the above statement about never, ever has there been a double blind placebo study. But oh well.

I'm sorry about your sensitivities. I don't know the details of your life that has led to your world view. But I cannot give into science denial.

Related question: How do you all feel about so much of your tithing dollars going to pay scientists at the church universities to very strongly teach the youth of the church about evolution, climate change, vaccines etc. Polls at BYU-Provo are showing that we are finally making headway in the church on our youth accepting evolution.

You sure are good at ignoring straight forward questions.

And you are wrong. By the CDC's own admission there has never been a double blind saline placebo controlled study of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children. They say it would be unethical because it would leave a random group of children unvaccinated. Sure there have been studies that use the vaccine itself minus the antigen as a control, or that just cut one vaccine out of the line up and then say "see? No difference!" Which if the other ingredients in the vaccine are causing the effects, rather than the antigen, or the effects come from cumulative exposure to vaccines rather than just one, well you can see how this would provide inaccurate results.

And golly, you seem very certain that I am an uneducated hippie living in a compound singing kumbaya. Actually, I graduated from the Lord's University Magna Cum Laude and with University Honors. Class of 2008. My husband, who reluctantly began listening to the information I was finding on vaccines and now shares my stance, graduated from the same tithing-subsidized university with a degree in Chemical Engineering. Interestingly enough, he now works in upper leadership for the biggest division of a Fortune 100-sized company. No lack of scientific background there.

I loved my BYU experience. More than anything I loved that I learned to think critically and independently. In fact, at my Honors thesis defense, the professor acting as my referee noted that she could tell from reading through my portfolio that included work from my Freshman year through my Senior, that my thinking had become much less black and white and more gray...that during those 4 years, my thinking had developed to recognize that everything is not so cut and dried. I am grateful for those skills more than any other aspect of my education. You make it sound like the goal of BYU is to turn out graduates who accept without question the philosophies of man. Just because BYU is church owned doesn't' mean the students should believe everything their professors "teach" them. God gave us each a brain of our own for a reason.

Oh, and by the way, I totally believe in evolution.

I know, shocker.

You must be smarter than the brethren and more inspired also. Because the church gives a lot to countries in order to vaccinate. They also won't let a missionary go unless they are vaccinated. Maybe they would let you talk in general conference on how bad vaccines are.

[JohnnyL]

Science is great. As a scientist, I am sure you can appreciate the value of a double-blind, placebo controlled study.
Well guess what. A study such as this has never been conducted on vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children. Ever. Okay, actual husband is îu. studied the flu shot in China. But you probably don't want to hear the results. It would burst your bubble.

As a scientist, you know it is possible to make a study show whatever you want it to show by manipulating controls, eliminating/including specific data, or just flat out fabrication of results. This is how "science" is bought. Have you ever heard how the sugar industry was behind the studies showing how bad sugar was for you back in the 80s? Totally false, totally bought...but, but, but it is in a science journal so it must be true!

I'm all for science when it is actual science. What I am not for is lies masquerading as science...lousy or manipulative experiment design that claims to prove something it doesn't really prove that makes people think they are informed because they read the headline in the newspaper but didn't actually read or analyze the study.

I ask you again, have you actually read any studies cited by the anti-vaxx advocates? Because, as an open-minded scientist, you should be willing to gather all pertinent data before making a judgement call.

Every thing I read from anti vaccers is dismissed within seconds of a few key strokes on google. Like the above statement about never, ever has there been a double blind placebo study. But oh well.

I'm sorry about your sensitivities. I don't know the details of your life that has led to your world view. But I cannot give into science denial.

Related question: How do you all feel about so much of your tithing dollars going to pay scientists at the church universities to very strongly teach the youth of the church about evolution, climate change, vaccines etc. Polls at BYU-Provo are showing that we are finally making headway in the church on our youth accepting evolution.

You sure are good at ignoring straight forward questions.

And you are wrong. By the CDC's own admission there has never been a double blind saline placebo controlled study of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children. They say it would be unethical because it would leave a random group of children unvaccinated. Sure there have been studies that use the vaccine itself minus the antigen as a control, or that just cut one vaccine out of the line up and then say "see? No difference!" Which if the other ingredients in the vaccine are causing the effects, rather than the antigen, or the effects come from cumulative exposure to vaccines rather than just one, well you can see how this would provide inaccurate results.

And golly, you seem very certain that I am an uneducated hippie living in a compound singing kumbaya. Actually, I graduated from the Lord's University Magna Cum Laude and with University Honors. Class of 2008. My husband, who reluctantly began listening to the information I was finding on vaccines and now shares my stance, graduated from the same tithing-subsidized university with a degree in Chemical Engineering. Interestingly enough, he now works in upper leadership for the biggest division of a Fortune 100-sized company. No lack of scientific background there.

I loved my BYU experience. More than anything I loved that I learned to think critically and independently. In fact, at my Honors thesis defense, the professor acting as my referee noted that she could tell from reading through my portfolio that included work from my Freshman year through my Senior, that my thinking had become much less black and white and more gray...that during those 4 years, my thinking had developed to recognize that everything is not so cut and dried. I am grateful for those skills more than any other aspect of my education. You make it sound like the goal of BYU is to turn out graduates who accept without question the philosophies of man. Just because BYU is church owned doesn't' mean the students should believe everything their professors "teach" them. God gave us each a brain of our own for a reason.

Oh, and by the way, I totally believe in evolution.

I know, shocker.

You must be smarter than the brethren and more inspired also. Because the church gives a lot to countries in order to vaccinate. They also won't let a missionary go unless they are vaccinated. Maybe they would let you talk in general conference on how bad vaccines are.

I inform you that vaccinations are NOT required for missionaries. You can call the missionary department to check. (I have checked.)

As then Elder Ballard and others have said, the church is not in the business of non-spiritual, non-mission supporting things, including knowledge, programs, etc. So yes, they even admit they are not as knowledgeable as others in many things. Not too shocking, is it? Where would it end, and how much would it cost (in effort, time, money, etc.), to teach things that are not fundamental or even supporting of the Church's mission?
Do you believe they are infallible?

Do you believe it might be hard even for them to unlearn untruth? Any seeker of truth has done it, but it usually takes time, reasons, and more.
In general, speaking of people, I can tell you that many can't unlearn untruth, because those untruths have become a part of their belief system, identity, and lives.

[eddie]

Reality will always, in the final analysis, slip out of the predictive and explanatory straitjacket of human science.

[PressingForward]

Every thing I read from anti vaccers is dismissed within seconds of a few key strokes on google. Like the above statement about never, ever has there been a double blind placebo study. But oh well.

I'm sorry about your sensitivities. I don't know the details of your life that has led to your world view. But I cannot give into science denial.

Related question: How do you all feel about so much of your tithing dollars going to pay scientists at the church universities to very strongly teach the youth of the church about evolution, climate change, vaccines etc. Polls at BYU-Provo are showing that we are finally making headway in the church on our youth accepting evolution.

You sure are good at ignoring straight forward questions.

And you are wrong. By the CDC's own admission there has never been a double blind saline placebo controlled study of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children. They say it would be unethical because it would leave a random group of children unvaccinated. Sure there have been studies that use the vaccine itself minus the antigen as a control, or that just cut one vaccine out of the line up and then say "see? No difference!" Which if the other ingredients in the vaccine are causing the effects, rather than the antigen, or the effects come from cumulative exposure to vaccines rather than just one, well you can see how this would provide inaccurate results.

And golly, you seem very certain that I am an uneducated hippie living in a compound singing kumbaya. Actually, I graduated from the Lord's University Magna Cum Laude and with University Honors. Class of 2008. My husband, who reluctantly began listening to the information I was finding on vaccines and now shares my stance, graduated from the same tithing-subsidized university with a degree in Chemical Engineering. Interestingly enough, he now works in upper leadership for the biggest division of a Fortune 100-sized company. No lack of scientific background there.

I loved my BYU experience. More than anything I loved that I learned to think critically and independently. In fact, at my Honors thesis defense, the professor acting as my referee noted that she could tell from reading through my portfolio that included work from my Freshman year through my Senior, that my thinking had become much less black and white and more gray...that during those 4 years, my thinking had developed to recognize that everything is not so cut and dried. I am grateful for those skills more than any other aspect of my education. You make it sound like the goal of BYU is to turn out graduates who accept without question the philosophies of man. Just because BYU is church owned doesn't' mean the students should believe everything their professors "teach" them. God gave us each a brain of our own for a reason.

Oh, and by the way, I totally believe in evolution.

I know, shocker.

You must be smarter than the brethren and more inspired also. Because the church gives a lot to countries in order to vaccinate. They also won't let a missionary go unless they are vaccinated. Maybe they would let you talk in general conference on how bad vaccines are.

I inform you that vaccinations are NOT required for missionaries. You can call the missionary department to check. (I have checked.)

As then Elder Ballard and others have said, the church is not in the business of non-spiritual, non-mission supporting things, including knowledge, programs, etc. So yes, they even admit they are not as knowledgeable as others in many things. Not too shocking, is it? Where would it end, and how much would it cost (in effort, time, money, etc.), to teach things that are not fundamental or even supporting of the Church's mission?
Do you believe they are infallible?

Do you believe it might be hard even for them to unlearn untruth? Any seeker of truth has done it, but it usually takes time, reasons, and more.
In general, speaking of people, I can tell you that many can't unlearn untruth, because those untruths have become a part of their belief system, identity, and lives.

Johnny,
While vaccinations are not required to serve in your home country, the Church most certainly does REQUIRE vaccination for most foreign missions. Refuse vaccines for the country you are called to serve in and you WILL be re assigned to your home country.
PERIOD.

[setyourselffree]

Every thing I read from anti vaccers is dismissed within seconds of a few key strokes on google. Like the above statement about never, ever has there been a double blind placebo study. But oh well.

I'm sorry about your sensitivities. I don't know the details of your life that has led to your world view. But I cannot give into science denial.

Related question: How do you all feel about so much of your tithing dollars going to pay scientists at the church universities to very strongly teach the youth of the church about evolution, climate change, vaccines etc. Polls at BYU-Provo are showing that we are finally making headway in the church on our youth accepting evolution.

You sure are good at ignoring straight forward questions.

And you are wrong. By the CDC's own admission there has never been a double blind saline placebo controlled study of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children. They say it would be unethical because it would leave a random group of children unvaccinated. Sure there have been studies that use the vaccine itself minus the antigen as a control, or that just cut one vaccine out of the line up and then say "see? No difference!" Which if the other ingredients in the vaccine are causing the effects, rather than the antigen, or the effects come from cumulative exposure to vaccines rather than just one, well you can see how this would provide inaccurate results.

And golly, you seem very certain that I am an uneducated hippie living in a compound singing kumbaya. Actually, I graduated from the Lord's University Magna Cum Laude and with University Honors. Class of 2008. My husband, who reluctantly began listening to the information I was finding on vaccines and now shares my stance, graduated from the same tithing-subsidized university with a degree in Chemical Engineering. Interestingly enough, he now works in upper leadership for the biggest division of a Fortune 100-sized company. No lack of scientific background there.

I loved my BYU experience. More than anything I loved that I learned to think critically and independently. In fact, at my Honors thesis defense, the professor acting as my referee noted that she could tell from reading through my portfolio that included work from my Freshman year through my Senior, that my thinking had become much less black and white and more gray...that during those 4 years, my thinking had developed to recognize that everything is not so cut and dried. I am grateful for those skills more than any other aspect of my education. You make it sound like the goal of BYU is to turn out graduates who accept without question the philosophies of man. Just because BYU is church owned doesn't' mean the students should believe everything their professors "teach" them. God gave us each a brain of our own for a reason.

Oh, and by the way, I totally believe in evolution.

I know, shocker.

You must be smarter than the brethren and more inspired also. Because the church gives a lot to countries in order to vaccinate. They also won't let a missionary go unless they are vaccinated. Maybe they would let you talk in general conference on how bad vaccines are.

I inform you that vaccinations are NOT required for missionaries. You can call the missionary department to check. (I have checked.)

As then Elder Ballard and others have said, the church is not in the business of non-spiritual, non-mission supporting things, including knowledge, programs, etc. So yes, they even admit they are not as knowledgeable as others in many things. Not too shocking, is it? Where would it end, and how much would it cost (in effort, time, money, etc.), to teach things that are not fundamental or even supporting of the Church's mission?
Do you believe they are infallible?

Do you believe it might be hard even for them to unlearn untruth? Any seeker of truth has done it, but it usually takes time, reasons, and more.
In general, speaking of people, I can tell you that many can't unlearn untruth, because those untruths have become a part of their belief system, identity, and lives.

If you don't think the brethren have not had specific revelation on immunizations then you would be wrong. The Church donates many Millions of dollars to other countries for immunizations. They 100% have prayed about it and have received an answer from the Lord to do it.

[Davka]

Science is great. As a scientist, I am sure you can appreciate the value of a double-blind, placebo controlled study.
Well guess what. A study such as this has never been conducted on vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children. Ever. Okay, actual husband is îu. studied the flu shot in China. But you probably don't want to hear the results. It would burst your bubble.

As a scientist, you know it is possible to make a study show whatever you want it to show by manipulating controls, eliminating/including specific data, or just flat out fabrication of results. This is how "science" is bought. Have you ever heard how the sugar industry was behind the studies showing how bad sugar was for you back in the 80s? Totally false, totally bought...but, but, but it is in a science journal so it must be true!

I'm all for science when it is actual science. What I am not for is lies masquerading as science...lousy or manipulative experiment design that claims to prove something it doesn't really prove that makes people think they are informed because they read the headline in the newspaper but didn't actually read or analyze the study.

I ask you again, have you actually read any studies cited by the anti-vaxx advocates? Because, as an open-minded scientist, you should be willing to gather all pertinent data before making a judgement call.

Every thing I read from anti vaccers is dismissed within seconds of a few key strokes on google. Like the above statement about never, ever has there been a double blind placebo study. But oh well.

I'm sorry about your sensitivities. I don't know the details of your life that has led to your world view. But I cannot give into science denial.

Related question: How do you all feel about so much of your tithing dollars going to pay scientists at the church universities to very strongly teach the youth of the church about evolution, climate change, vaccines etc. Polls at BYU-Provo are showing that we are finally making headway in the church on our youth accepting evolution.

You sure are good at ignoring straight forward questions.

And you are wrong. By the CDC's own admission there has never been a double blind saline placebo controlled study of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children. They say it would be unethical because it would leave a random group of children unvaccinated. Sure there have been studies that use the vaccine itself minus the antigen as a control, or that just cut one vaccine out of the line up and then say "see? No difference!" Which if the other ingredients in the vaccine are causing the effects, rather than the antigen, or the effects come from cumulative exposure to vaccines rather than just one, well you can see how this would provide inaccurate results.

And golly, you seem very certain that I am an uneducated hippie living in a compound singing kumbaya. Actually, I graduated from the Lord's University Magna Cum Laude and with University Honors. Class of 2008. My husband, who reluctantly began listening to the information I was finding on vaccines and now shares my stance, graduated from the same tithing-subsidized university with a degree in Chemical Engineering. Interestingly enough, he now works in upper leadership for the biggest division of a Fortune 100-sized company. No lack of scientific background there.

I loved my BYU experience. More than anything I loved that I learned to think critically and independently. In fact, at my Honors thesis defense, the professor acting as my referee noted that she could tell from reading through my portfolio that included work from my Freshman year through my Senior, that my thinking had become much less black and white and more gray...that during those 4 years, my thinking had developed to recognize that everything is not so cut and dried. I am grateful for those skills more than any other aspect of my education. You make it sound like the goal of BYU is to turn out graduates who accept without question the philosophies of man. Just because BYU is church owned doesn't' mean the students should believe everything their professors "teach" them. God gave us each a brain of our own for a reason.

Oh, and by the way, I totally believe in evolution.

I know, shocker.

You must be smarter than the brethren and more inspired also. Because the church gives a lot to countries in order to vaccinate. They also won't let a missionary go unless they are vaccinated. Maybe they would let you talk in general conference on how bad vaccines are.

Nope, not smarter. Justme was throwing his credentials around, so I shared mine to make a point. Mainly that I am not ignorant, isolated, or uneducated. There are people much smarter and more educated than me who are speaking out against the standard vaccine narrative, by the way.

And the last official statement by the church about vaccines was in

The church requires vaccines for missionaries serving foreign missions. Those requirements are mostly set by the governments in order to be cleared for visas. An unvaccinated person can absolutely serve, but they may be limited to where they can serve--again, not necessarily by the church, but by government regulation.

And the church does support programs that provide vaccinations as part of routine medical care, you're right. But that is through the Humanitarian Aid arm, which I do not take as a mandate from the brethren. Even in an official press release about immunizations, the statement cites U.S. government statistics as the authority, not a member of the 12. The last official statement from the church on immunizations was in 1978. President Nelson didn't start serving as an apostle until 1984, which means none of the current 15 were serving as apostles at that time.

I really believe Heavenly Father wants us study things out for ourselves. If you are sitting around waiting for church leaders to tell you exactly how to take care of your body, I think you are failing in personal responsibility. I think you should have the right to take vaccines if you feel it is best for you and your family. But no one should be forced one way or the other.

[PressingForward]

The Lords University? Is that what you undomesticated kitty cats call BYU? Now that’s funny, I don’t care who ya are!

[I AM]

You sure are good at ignoring straight forward questions.

And you are wrong. By the CDC's own admission there has never been a double blind saline placebo controlled study of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children. They say it would be unethical because it would leave a random group of children unvaccinated. Sure there have been studies that use the vaccine itself minus the antigen as a control, or that just cut one vaccine out of the line up and then say "see? No difference!" Which if the other ingredients in the vaccine are causing the effects, rather than the antigen, or the effects come from cumulative exposure to vaccines rather than just one, well you can see how this would provide inaccurate results.

And golly, you seem very certain that I am an uneducated hippie living in a compound singing kumbaya. Actually, I graduated from the Lord's University Magna Cum Laude and with University Honors. Class of 2008. My husband, who reluctantly began listening to the information I was finding on vaccines and now shares my stance, graduated from the same tithing-subsidized university with a degree in Chemical Engineering. Interestingly enough, he now works in upper leadership for the biggest division of a Fortune 100-sized company. No lack of scientific background there.

I loved my BYU experience. More than anything I loved that I learned to think critically and independently. In fact, at my Honors thesis defense, the professor acting as my referee noted that she could tell from reading through my portfolio that included work from my Freshman year through my Senior, that my thinking had become much less black and white and more gray...that during those 4 years, my thinking had developed to recognize that everything is not so cut and dried. I am grateful for those skills more than any other aspect of my education. You make it sound like the goal of BYU is to turn out graduates who accept without question the philosophies of man. Just because BYU is church owned doesn't' mean the students should believe everything their professors "teach" them. God gave us each a brain of our own for a reason.

Oh, and by the way, I totally believe in evolution.

I know, shocker.

You must be smarter than the brethren and more inspired also. Because the church gives a lot to countries in order to vaccinate. They also won't let a missionary go unless they are vaccinated. Maybe they would let you talk in general conference on how bad vaccines are.

I inform you that vaccinations are NOT required for missionaries. You can call the missionary department to check. (I have checked.)

As then Elder Ballard and others have said, the church is not in the business of non-spiritual, non-mission supporting things, including knowledge, programs, etc. So yes, they even admit they are not as knowledgeable as others in many things. Not too shocking, is it? Where would it end, and how much would it cost (in effort, time, money, etc.), to teach things that are not fundamental or even supporting of the Church's mission?
Do you believe they are infallible?

Do you believe it might be hard even for them to unlearn untruth? Any seeker of truth has done it, but it usually takes time, reasons, and more.
In general, speaking of people, I can tell you that many can't unlearn untruth, because those untruths have become a part of their belief system, identity, and lives.

If you don't think the brethren have not had specific revelation on immunizations then you would be wrong. The Church donates many Millions of dollars to other countries for immunizations. They 100% have prayed about it and have received an answer from the Lord to do it.

------------
right ! give me a break !
how members can be so deceived.

It's dark.
what realm am I in.
I guess the furthest from the truth.

[Davka]

The Lords University? Is that what you undomesticated kitty cats call BYU? Now that’s funny, I don’t care who ya are!

Other people call it that. I was being facetious. I was responding to justme, who appears to be a professor at BYU.

[kittycat51]

They also won't let a missionary go unless they are vaccinated.

That's not true at all. I have a couple of nephews and nieces who have gone on missions, who aren't vaccinated and would not receive any to go out period either. (Granted they stayed in the States)

*Edit; sorry I can see this was already stated above.

[JohnnyL]

You sure are good at ignoring straight forward questions.

And you are wrong. By the CDC's own admission there has never been a double blind saline placebo controlled study of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children. They say it would be unethical because it would leave a random group of children unvaccinated. Sure there have been studies that use the vaccine itself minus the antigen as a control, or that just cut one vaccine out of the line up and then say "see? No difference!" Which if the other ingredients in the vaccine are causing the effects, rather than the antigen, or the effects come from cumulative exposure to vaccines rather than just one, well you can see how this would provide inaccurate results.

And golly, you seem very certain that I am an uneducated hippie living in a compound singing kumbaya. Actually, I graduated from the Lord's University Magna Cum Laude and with University Honors. Class of 2008. My husband, who reluctantly began listening to the information I was finding on vaccines and now shares my stance, graduated from the same tithing-subsidized university with a degree in Chemical Engineering. Interestingly enough, he now works in upper leadership for the biggest division of a Fortune 100-sized company. No lack of scientific background there.

I loved my BYU experience. More than anything I loved that I learned to think critically and independently. In fact, at my Honors thesis defense, the professor acting as my referee noted that she could tell from reading through my portfolio that included work from my Freshman year through my Senior, that my thinking had become much less black and white and more gray...that during those 4 years, my thinking had developed to recognize that everything is not so cut and dried. I am grateful for those skills more than any other aspect of my education. You make it sound like the goal of BYU is to turn out graduates who accept without question the philosophies of man. Just because BYU is church owned doesn't' mean the students should believe everything their professors "teach" them. God gave us each a brain of our own for a reason.

Oh, and by the way, I totally believe in evolution.

I know, shocker.

You must be smarter than the brethren and more inspired also. Because the church gives a lot to countries in order to vaccinate. They also won't let a missionary go unless they are vaccinated. Maybe they would let you talk in general conference on how bad vaccines are.

I inform you that vaccinations are NOT required for missionaries. You can call the missionary department to check. (I have checked.)

As then Elder Ballard and others have said, the church is not in the business of non-spiritual, non-mission supporting things, including knowledge, programs, etc. So yes, they even admit they are not as knowledgeable as others in many things. Not too shocking, is it? Where would it end, and how much would it cost (in effort, time, money, etc.), to teach things that are not fundamental or even supporting of the Church's mission?
Do you believe they are infallible?

Do you believe it might be hard even for them to unlearn untruth? Any seeker of truth has done it, but it usually takes time, reasons, and more.
In general, speaking of people, I can tell you that many can't unlearn untruth, because those untruths have become a part of their belief system, identity, and lives.

Johnny,
While vaccinations are not required to serve in your home country, the Church most certainly does REQUIRE vaccination for most foreign missions. Refuse vaccines for the country you are called to serve in and you WILL be re assigned to your home country.
PERIOD.

Actually, not right. If you'll check the other threads on this, there are members on this forum who are certain, by experience (not someone's someone's someone), that going foreign restriction is not necessarily true. Did you talk to the Missionary Department, and they said that?

So, if you refuse vaccines for the USA... where will you serve??
Are you also saying that serving in the USA is a punishment? I know someone whose family was freaking out about the possibility of going to certain foreign countries. When he got a mission call to the USA, there was celebration.
In addition, the people who refuse vaccinations will likely refuse to go to the hospital, or pay the bill.

I think most foreign countries do not require immunizations for entering and even residing, though I don't know about missionary work.

BTW, pulling wisdom teeth is optional, too. Once again, you can also check with the Missionary Department on that.

I'm seeing a pattern here--you are certain about something incorrect, then correct yourself and are certain about something incorrect. As with vaccinations, you MUST do your own research on some things; you cannot rely with surety on rumors and probabilities and even sown lies.

[JohnnyL]

You sure are good at ignoring straight forward questions.

And you are wrong. By the CDC's own admission there has never been a double blind saline placebo controlled study of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children. They say it would be unethical because it would leave a random group of children unvaccinated. Sure there have been studies that use the vaccine itself minus the antigen as a control, or that just cut one vaccine out of the line up and then say "see? No difference!" Which if the other ingredients in the vaccine are causing the effects, rather than the antigen, or the effects come from cumulative exposure to vaccines rather than just one, well you can see how this would provide inaccurate results.

And golly, you seem very certain that I am an uneducated hippie living in a compound singing kumbaya. Actually, I graduated from the Lord's University Magna Cum Laude and with University Honors. Class of 2008. My husband, who reluctantly began listening to the information I was finding on vaccines and now shares my stance, graduated from the same tithing-subsidized university with a degree in Chemical Engineering. Interestingly enough, he now works in upper leadership for the biggest division of a Fortune 100-sized company. No lack of scientific background there.

I loved my BYU experience. More than anything I loved that I learned to think critically and independently. In fact, at my Honors thesis defense, the professor acting as my referee noted that she could tell from reading through my portfolio that included work from my Freshman year through my Senior, that my thinking had become much less black and white and more gray...that during those 4 years, my thinking had developed to recognize that everything is not so cut and dried. I am grateful for those skills more than any other aspect of my education. You make it sound like the goal of BYU is to turn out graduates who accept without question the philosophies of man. Just because BYU is church owned doesn't' mean the students should believe everything their professors "teach" them. God gave us each a brain of our own for a reason.

Oh, and by the way, I totally believe in evolution.

I know, shocker.

You must be smarter than the brethren and more inspired also. Because the church gives a lot to countries in order to vaccinate. They also won't let a missionary go unless they are vaccinated. Maybe they would let you talk in general conference on how bad vaccines are.

I inform you that vaccinations are NOT required for missionaries. You can call the missionary department to check. (I have checked.)

As then Elder Ballard and others have said, the church is not in the business of non-spiritual, non-mission supporting things, including knowledge, programs, etc. So yes, they even admit they are not as knowledgeable as others in many things. Not too shocking, is it? Where would it end, and how much would it cost (in effort, time, money, etc.), to teach things that are not fundamental or even supporting of the Church's mission?
Do you believe they are infallible?

Do you believe it might be hard even for them to unlearn untruth? Any seeker of truth has done it, but it usually takes time, reasons, and more.
In general, speaking of people, I can tell you that many can't unlearn untruth, because those untruths have become a part of their belief system, identity, and lives.

If you don't think the brethren have not had specific revelation on immunizations then you would be wrong. The Church donates many Millions of dollars to other countries for immunizations. They 100% have prayed about it and have received an answer from the Lord to do it.

Could you quote a conference talk, letter from the 3 or 12, or anything else on it? (I'm assuming that you have read or have first-hand knowledge that they had specific revelations on immunizations, which is the only reason I would be wrong, right?)

The Church works with the Red Cross, which has been shown to be a (very) shady organization. Does that mean I should be giving to the Red Cross, against better judgment? Do you give to the Red Cross? Does that working with the RC imply that the Church wants us to give to the RC?

[PressingForward]

You must be smarter than the brethren and more inspired also. Because the church gives a lot to countries in order to vaccinate. They also won't let a missionary go unless they are vaccinated. Maybe they would let you talk in general conference on how bad vaccines are.

I inform you that vaccinations are NOT required for missionaries. You can call the missionary department to check. (I have checked.)

As then Elder Ballard and others have said, the church is not in the business of non-spiritual, non-mission supporting things, including knowledge, programs, etc. So yes, they even admit they are not as knowledgeable as others in many things. Not too shocking, is it? Where would it end, and how much would it cost (in effort, time, money, etc.), to teach things that are not fundamental or even supporting of the Church's mission?
Do you believe they are infallible?

Do you believe it might be hard even for them to unlearn untruth? Any seeker of truth has done it, but it usually takes time, reasons, and more.
In general, speaking of people, I can tell you that many can't unlearn untruth, because those untruths have become a part of their belief system, identity, and lives.

Johnny,
While vaccinations are not required to serve in your home country, the Church most certainly does REQUIRE vaccination for most foreign missions. Refuse vaccines for the country you are called to serve in and you WILL be re assigned to your home country.
PERIOD.

Actually, not right. If you'll check the other threads on this, there are members on this forum who are certain, by experience (not someone's someone's someone), that going foreign restriction is not necessarily true. Did you talk to the Missionary Department, and they said that?

So, if you refuse vaccines for the USA... where will you serve??
Are you also saying that serving in the USA is a punishment? I know someone whose family was freaking out about the possibility of going to certain foreign countries. When he got a mission call to the USA, there was celebration.
In addition, the people who refuse vaccinations will likely refuse to go to the hospital, or pay the bill.

I think most foreign countries do not require immunizations for entering and even residing, though I don't know about missionary work.

BTW, pulling wisdom teeth is optional, too. Once again, you can also check with the Missionary Department on that.

I'm seeing a pattern here--you are certain about something incorrect, then correct yourself and are certain about something incorrect. As with vaccinations, you MUST do your own research on some things; you cannot rely with surety on rumors and probabilities and even sown lies.

http://www.immunize-utah.org/pdf/Missio ... elines.pdf

Johnny,
Please get your information from the church. I have a nephew serving in Laos, one in Dominican Republic. One returned from serving in Seattle that had an original call to the Congo, but my SIL is an antivaxxer and so he was reassigned.
But you can BELIEVE whatever you like.

[Michelle]

I think most foreign countries do not require immunizations for entering and even residing, though I don't know about missionary work.

My sister and her family are in Ghana for about 6 months, the visas for that country do require vaccinations. It isn't just a church requirement.