With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

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Michelle
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With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by Michelle »

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/29/us/u ... raids.html

In case you were wondering, the child is fine. . . except that he and his siblings were taken into foster care after being removed by force in night raid by police.
With guns drawn, the police officers broke down the door of the suburban Phoenix home in the early hours of a February morning. “Come out with your hands up!” an officer yelled, with the dark front porch and foyer inside suddenly flooded with light from the officers’ flashlights.

The target of the raid: an unvaccinated 2-year-old boy with a high fever.

Video from the officers’ body cameras that was released on Thursday shows that moments later, the child’s father emerges, walking out backward with his hands over his head. The boy’s mother then comes out, too, cradling her young son in her arms.

The boy was whisked away to a hospital, and since that raid on Feb. 25, he and the couple’s two other children, ages 4 and 6, have been in the state’s custody. The parents have been charged with child abuse.

The boy’s case is among the most extreme examples of the authorities overriding the rights of parents to make decisions for their children’s health, and it comes at a time of rising concern about unvaccinated children infecting others around them.

The parents, Brooks Bryce and Sarah Beck, say the authorities drastically overreacted. “They treated us like criminals, busting in our door,” Mr. Bryce told a local TV station. “I mean, I don’t know what kind of trauma that did to my kids.”

But the Chandler Police Department has defended its role in the confrontation, saying it was compelled to carry out a court-ordered welfare check after the child’s doctor became concerned that the boy might have meningitis, a potentially life-threatening illness, and was not receiving necessary emergency care.

In rare cases, parents can be stripped of their ability to make health care decisions on behalf of their children. Even rarer are the occasions when parents lose custody of their children for declining treatment.

But with 315 individual cases of measles confirmed in 15 states so far this year, the authorities are on high alert for people exhibiting symptoms of infectious diseases, especially children and toddlers who lack vaccinations for that disease and other illnesses.

Under Arizona law, parents may decline vaccinations for their child based on personal, religious or medical exemptions. But that law is in opposition to the “parens patriae” theory, a centuries-old principle that empowers the state to look after the interests of children and others unable to care for themselves.

“It’s a pretty high standard to meet,” said Douglas S. Diekema, who has been a practicing emergency room doctor for 30 years at Seattle Children’s Hospital. “I don’t know that I’ve ever called Child Protective Services, though I’ve thought about it a couple of times.”

Police records show that on Feb. 25, Ms. Beck had taken her 2-year-old boy to a clinic, where his temperature was recorded at above 100 degrees.

The child’s doctor became concerned that he could have meningitis, after learning that he was lethargic and had not been vaccinated. Ms. Beck was told to take him to an emergency room.

“I called the doctor back and said ‘Hey, I’m not sure how you got this 105 reading, my son’s acting fine,’” Ms. Beck told a local TV station. “‘This doesn’t really seem like a medical emergency.’”

The child’s doctor, after learning that Ms. Beck had ignored the recommendation to take the child to the hospital and having follow-up phone calls to the family go unanswered, then contacted the Arizona Department of Child Safety.

Asked to do a welfare check, the police officers later arrived at the family’s door, but were not allowed in. The body camera footage released Thursday shows the police twice knocking and trying to enter, before an officer reaches Mr. Bryce by telephone just before midnight, and tells him that he needs to verify that their youngest child is improving.

“No, you don’t need to,” Mr. Bryce replies. He remains polite, saying “No, thank you” when he’s asked to come out of his home.

An emergency court order was issued, allowing the police to take the child into custody. The officers asked the family to leave their home and take the child to the hospital, the video shows. After two more unsuccessful attempts at knocking at the door, they reminded Mr. Bryce that they had a court order and broke down the door, nearly four hours after they arrived at the home.

Though neither parent was arrested, they were each charged with one count of child abuse after an investigation. Two of the children, including the youngest, were taken by ambulance to the hospital, and the third was taken by the Department of Child Safety, according to the police.

All three children remain in separate foster care placements, according to The Arizona Republic.

Dr. Diekema, the emergency room doctor in Seattle, said that he personally encounters parents refusing a treatment plan “maybe every month or two,” meaning it likely happens in his hospital on a weekly basis. But there are procedures in place to stave off a hospital visit escalating into a child custody battle.

Sometimes, he said, a compromise can be found on a less aggressive form of treatment that is acceptable to the doctor; other times, another doctor at the hospital can give a second opinion, which some parents find more comforting.

Dr. Diekema, who is also a bioethics professor at the University of Washington School of Medicine, said that he tries to avoid coercion when he can. He recalled telling a patient’s parents, “I hate to say this, but I have to let you know that if you walk out of this emergency department, without agreeing to something that makes me comfortable, I’ll have to call child protective services.”

He said that the doctor in Arizona would have been obligated to call the authorities if the family did not follow the clinic’s instructions.

The boy was eventually found to have a respiratory illness. A judge has told the child’s parents that the state wants them to regain custody of their children, but it was unclear when that would happen.

“We love our children, we love them,” Ms. Beck told another local TV station. “If our children needed help, we would absolutely help them.”

JohnnyL
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Re: With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by JohnnyL »

Though neither parent was arrested, they were each charged with one count of child abuse after an investigation. Two of the children, including the youngest, were taken by ambulance to the hospital, and the third was taken by the Department of Child Safety, according to the police.

All three children remain in separate foster care placements, according to The Arizona Republic.
A temperature of 100, or 105?

So if he had had a vaccination, and a temperature of 105, he would have been fine? By what scientific standard?

I know of a doctor at the UofU who does this sort of thing, and Utah CPS loves to get involved, lie, change court documents, and judges love to go along with whatever they say.

So they take the children away traumatically, take them to the hospital by ambulance when only one was sick, and place them separately.

At least the police acted decently, given the context and their jobs.

Lesson: Your children aren't yours. ONE doctor has more power over them than you do.

Juliet
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Re: With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by Juliet »

The way people treat each other in the name of love, shows once again why we are created equally under God with unalienable rights, and no one should have authority over another, no matter how righteous they portend to be. The only way for true equality is for us to stop invading the privacy of others.

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The Airbender
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Re: With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by The Airbender »

But did you also notice that the parents refused to answer the phone, refused to give information as to whether or not the child's health was improving? Refused to even agree to any treatment plan at all? They are the ones who went to the hospital in the first place.

I'm not saying the state should be allowed to take a child away, especially arbitrarily. But you can't just go to the hosoital, put a doctor on alert them run away and hide and refuse to eve answer your phone. At any point they could have stopped this by just giving the doctor or the police some peace of mind.

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Robin Hood
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Re: With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by Robin Hood »

This is horrendous!
I can't believe this can happen in America.

Serragon
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Re: With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by Serragon »

The Airbender wrote: March 29th, 2019, 4:23 pm But did you also notice that the parents refused to answer the phone, refused to give information as to whether or not the child's health was improving? Refused to even agree to any treatment plan at all? They are the ones who went to the hospital in the first place.

I'm not saying the state should be allowed to take a child away, especially arbitrarily. But you can't just go to the hosoital, put a doctor on alert them run away and hide and refuse to eve answer your phone. At any point they could have stopped this by just giving the doctor or the police some peace of mind.
I understand your sentiment, but it leads to great evil.

The doctor provided a service for which he is entitled to be compensated. That is the extent to which he should be legally involved.

The parents get to decide how their children are treated for illness. No one else. Even if many would find their decisions unwise.

Your last paragraph is a justification of the idea that the state ultimately has responsibility for children. You can say they shouldn't be allowed to take the child, but at that point you have already conceded the principle. You are simply arguing about the penalty.

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Craig Johnson
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Re: With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by Craig Johnson »

These same concerned doctors love to perform abortions. We are to believe that they care more about someone's children than the parents, no, they love exercising power over the lives of people whom they have no right to interfere with so that they can show they have power and money and that they are the real great ones in our society. I say make the medical profession a job like any other job that the government has control of like the post office used to be, make it difficult to become a multi-millionaire doctor and bring them to heel and vastly reduce the cost of care and insurance, this is what they need and what our economy needs.

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harakim
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Re: With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by harakim »

While this particular case, it may or may not have been the right thing to do on like a universal scale, the fact they have the ability to do it is worse than a dead child. This will increase because we are entering a now-or-never scenario for the powers that be. It won't be long before we find out who comes ahead. Given my belief that Jesus will not come save us in the near future, I think we will succeed. If not, it's going to be really rough until he comes in the 2060s at the earliest.

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The Airbender
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Re: With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by The Airbender »

Serragon wrote: March 29th, 2019, 4:46 pm
The Airbender wrote: March 29th, 2019, 4:23 pm But did you also notice that the parents refused to answer the phone, refused to give information as to whether or not the child's health was improving? Refused to even agree to any treatment plan at all? They are the ones who went to the hospital in the first place.

I'm not saying the state should be allowed to take a child away, especially arbitrarily. But you can't just go to the hosoital, put a doctor on alert them run away and hide and refuse to eve answer your phone. At any point they could have stopped this by just giving the doctor or the police some peace of mind.
I understand your sentiment, but it leads to great evil.

The doctor provided a service for which he is entitled to be compensated. That is the extent to which he should be legally involved.

The parents get to decide how their children are treated for illness. No one else. Even if many would find their decisions unwise.

Your last paragraph is a justification of the idea that the state ultimately has responsibility for children. You can say they shouldn't be allowed to take the child, but at that point you have already conceded the principle. You are simply arguing about the penalty.
On the contrary. I am completely against the notion of any man violating the freedom of another. But there is a time to be prudent when you are surrounded on all sides by the enemy

JohnnyL
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Re: With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by JohnnyL »

The Airbender wrote: March 29th, 2019, 4:23 pm But you can't just go to the hosoital, put a doctor on alert them run away and hide and refuse to eve answer your phone.
Why not? (Other than an unconstitutional law that says otherwise, lol.)

Michelle
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Re: With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by Michelle »

The Airbender wrote: March 29th, 2019, 4:23 pm But did you also notice that the parents refused to answer the phone, refused to give information as to whether or not the child's health was improving? Refused to even agree to any treatment plan at all? They are the ones who went to the hospital in the first place.

I'm not saying the state should be allowed to take a child away, especially arbitrarily. But you can't just go to the hosoital, put a doctor on alert them run away and hide and refuse to eve answer your phone. At any point they could have stopped this by just giving the doctor or the police some peace of mind.
The parents did inform them that the child was dong better and the fever was lower multiple times.

The child was confirmed to be better when they did take him to the ER.

The father clearly told them the child was better and that he didn't want to take him to the ER and spend $3000 when he was better.

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The Airbender
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Re: With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by The Airbender »

JohnnyL wrote: March 30th, 2019, 4:07 pm
The Airbender wrote: March 29th, 2019, 4:23 pm But you can't just go to the hosoital, put a doctor on alert them run away and hide and refuse to eve answer your phone.
Why not? (Other than an unconstitutional law that says otherwise, lol.)
Because of wicked men.

brianj
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Re: With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by brianj »

JohnnyL wrote: March 29th, 2019, 4:04 pm
Though neither parent was arrested, they were each charged with one count of child abuse after an investigation. Two of the children, including the youngest, were taken by ambulance to the hospital, and the third was taken by the Department of Child Safety, according to the police.

All three children remain in separate foster care placements, according to The Arizona Republic.
A temperature of 100, or 105?

So if he had had a vaccination, and a temperature of 105, he would have been fine? By what scientific standard?

I know of a doctor at the UofU who does this sort of thing, and Utah CPS loves to get involved, lie, change court documents, and judges love to go along with whatever they say.

So they take the children away traumatically, take them to the hospital by ambulance when only one was sick, and place them separately.

At least the police acted decently, given the context and their jobs.

Lesson: Your children aren't yours. ONE doctor has more power over them than you do.
If the child had been vaccinated then the parents would probably have accepted that medical school provides more information about health than YouTube videos and taken the child to the hospital.

The lesson that you are ignoring, or maybe didn't bother reading far enough into the article to learn, is that if police show up at your home with a warrant requiring them to check the child's health, and show the incredible patience to try negotiating with you for four hours while you disregard their legal authority, bad things are going to happen.

brianj
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Location: Vineyard, Utah

Re: With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by brianj »

Craig Johnson wrote: March 29th, 2019, 6:00 pm These same concerned doctors love to perform abortions. We are to believe that they care more about someone's children than the parents, no, they love exercising power over the lives of people whom they have no right to interfere with so that they can show they have power and money and that they are the real great ones in our society. I say make the medical profession a job like any other job that the government has control of like the post office used to be, make it difficult to become a multi-millionaire doctor and bring them to heel and vastly reduce the cost of care and insurance, this is what they need and what our economy needs.
Really? I have never met a pediatrician who performs abortions. I haven't even heard of pediatricians that perform abortions. How many practicing pediatricians do you know who perform abortions?

I AM
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Re: With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by I AM »

the power of secret combinations

this reminds of the Parker Jensen story.

The whole medical scene - and pharmaceutical - prescription drugs is the biggest scam that the world has known, and one of the best examples of "secret combinations" getting power over us.

TALK ABOUT CONTROL !
What a joke - did you know that in Utah, it's illegal to heal yourself from cancer.

Remember some years back when the parents of a boy where treating him with holistic forms of healing, herbs, etc.
The state threatened to put them in jail unless they used the conventional way of treating it.
I think they finally had to move out of state.
FREEDOM lol what freedom, WHAT CONTROL ! thanks to many LDS leaders and politicians.

Thanks to his parents using their God given right to heal themselves with the things God has give us;
Doctrine and Covenants 42:43 "with herbs and mild food", this boy is still alive.

Also what about the lady who was using herbs to heal people of cancer.
Ya that's right - they threaten to put her in jail. check google (if it hasn't been removed by secret combinations)
https://www.healthfreedom.info/I%20Was% ... 0Nurse.htm

If you think they want to cure cancer or any other disease you're wrong.
Do you know how many billions of dollars they would lose out of their greedy pockets,
not using their expensive addicting drugs, that don't really heal you, just cover up the problem
and keep you using them.

We need to WAKE UP !
2 Nephi 1:13
13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea,
even from the sleep of hell,
and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound,
which are the chains which bind
the children of men, that they are carried away captive down
to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.

Ether 8:24

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

And Utah leads the use and abuse of prescription drugs - thanks to, you got it, us Mormons -
putting more money and power - that's right - into the hands of evil - the secret combinations.

IF YOU THINK THIS KIND OF ABUSE OF POWER IS JUSTIFIED YOU HAVE JOINED
THE SECRET COMBINATIONS

Pair charged with kidnapping after refusing treatment for son
"A father who took his son out of Utah, defying a court order to give the boy chemotherapy for cancer, was arrested in Idaho"
https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/ ... ad11a.html

Parker Jensen cancer free 10 years later
" His parents didn't agree with the diagnosis and the state tried
in vain to force Parker Jensen to undergo chemotherapy."
https://www.ksl.com/?sid=25601811

JohnnyL
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Re: With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by JohnnyL »

brianj wrote: March 31st, 2019, 5:33 pm
JohnnyL wrote: March 29th, 2019, 4:04 pm
Though neither parent was arrested, they were each charged with one count of child abuse after an investigation. Two of the children, including the youngest, were taken by ambulance to the hospital, and the third was taken by the Department of Child Safety, according to the police.

All three children remain in separate foster care placements, according to The Arizona Republic.
A temperature of 100, or 105?

So if he had had a vaccination, and a temperature of 105, he would have been fine? By what scientific standard?

I know of a doctor at the UofU who does this sort of thing, and Utah CPS loves to get involved, lie, change court documents, and judges love to go along with whatever they say.

So they take the children away traumatically, take them to the hospital by ambulance when only one was sick, and place them separately.
At least the police acted decently, given the context and their jobs.

Lesson: Your children aren't yours. ONE doctor has more power over them than you do.
If the child had been vaccinated then the parents would probably have accepted that medical school provides more information about health than YouTube videos and taken the child to the hospital.

The lesson that you are ignoring, or maybe didn't bother reading far enough into the article to learn, is that if police show up at your home with a warrant requiring them to check the child's health, and show the incredible patience to try negotiating with you for four hours while you disregard their legal authority, bad things are going to happen.
Oh, you mean that lesson? That someone didn't bother to read, or ignored? ;)

nvr
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Posts: 1112

Re: With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by nvr »

Those police are involved in a very dangerous job knocking down doors to take children from parents upon a single doctor's call. What happens again when you take a bear cub from it's mother? Are there any police reading this who would execute this court order? There's something wrong in laws and culture of Arizona to have gotten to this point.

JohnnyL
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Posts: 9984

Re: With Guns Drawn, Officers Raided Home to Get Unvaccinated, Feverish Child

Post by JohnnyL »

More about the article, and for some posters, how CPS abused the intent of the law:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=51210

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