LDS Freedom Forum

AGStacker wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 1:55 pm

gkearney wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 3:38 pm One thing your going to find here is that there is no consensus here at all.

I'm a liberal labor Democrat, I can't stand Trump, I don't vote for or support fascist. That said I am likely the most liberal, politically, poster you are likely going to find on these forums. I try to prove that not everyone on the "left" are a bunch of screaming abortion promoting homosexuals that some here would have you believe.

I am perfectly willing to believe that evolution was the means by which God created life on this earth. I believe the earth and life on it is millions of years old and that the Hebrew telling of Adam and Eve are allegorical in nature and not literal. I think the climate is controlled by physical laws which God himself understands perfectly and which even he must live by. The same is true for the movements of the planets and stars and other physical manifestations of the universe. God is not a magician nor does he conspire to confuse his children by deliberately making the world and the universe incomprehensible to them.

I think that the ten tribes are scattered across the world's population but I do not think they live in a hollow earth, on the sun or any other such fanciful place. I do not think there will ever be a call out, such is the creation of a frenzied imagination of a few people some of whom have been taken advantage of by those seeking to make a quick buck. (Priestcraft anyone?)

I think that vaccines, like all medicines, can have negative effects on some small number of person they are given to but on the whole they protect us from diseases that have tormented man for millennia.

There is no common consensus as to the geography of the Book of Mormon and proposal run the gambit from limited to hemispheric geographies and even those that are not placed in the Americas at all. In the end where or how the events took place is not as important as the lessons we can take from the book itself.

Energy healing is the belief that the body has an energy field which can be manipulated to improve mental and physical health by means of another. (the practitioner) It has it origins in east asian traditional medical practices. It has become fashionable in some circles of late both with in and outside of the Church. It is a sort of "New Age" practice. So long as one does not rely on it exclusively in time of medical need I see little harm in it.

By the way I am 61 years old a member of a family that bridges across the two main branches of the restoration (LDS and RLDS) I grew up in Maine an Atlantic Canada and have lived and worked around the world including Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Mtaylasia, Canada, South Africa, Denmark, the Netherland, and Sweden.

How is the President a fascist? The Left has become unhinged and are the real fascists. They are always trying to stop the Right from speaking.

A fair question, unlike many on the left I use the word fascist here in it classical meaning. Namely the political philosophy developed and articulated by Benito Mussolini [1883-1945] this approach was one of public distaste for civic institutions and democratic processes. Fascism holds that the ends justifies the means and that the leadership of the one supersedes all other interests. From very early on Donald Trump has exhibited all the political traits of traditional fascist leaders from the mid 20th century. For example at his speech at the GOP convention where he said that he alone was the only hope for America, his habit of saying what ever is expedient at the moment and then denying he ever said it, even when tape is produced of him doing so. His dismissal of any news story even mildly critical of him as “fake news”. All of this and more are right out of Mussolini’s play book.

Now most of today’s liberals who throw the word fascist about have no real idea just what fascism is or what it entails. They just know people hate fascism, by the way technically Hitler was not a fascist an generally held the Italian and other fascist leaders in low regard.

I would suggest the following book: Mussolini Mack Smith, Denis ISBN 9780394506944 for an overview of the development and political philosophy of classical fascism. YOu will then seen how I have come to the conclusion that Donald Trump is cut from the same cloth as figures such as Mussolini or Franco.

shadow wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 12:10 pm

EdGoble wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:24 am

shadow wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:12 am Is it also a sin, in your mind, to vaccinate a child who has adverse reactions to vaccines and dies?

Nice try. The minuscule potential of that is far outweighed by the benefits. I can see there are strong opinions on this issue on this forum.
This ends my comments on this issue.

I figured you wouldn't answer.

gkearney wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 3:19 pm

AGStacker wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 1:55 pm

gkearney wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 3:38 pm One thing your going to find here is that there is no consensus here at all.

I'm a liberal labor Democrat, I can't stand Trump, I don't vote for or support fascist. That said I am likely the most liberal, politically, poster you are likely going to find on these forums. I try to prove that not everyone on the "left" are a bunch of screaming abortion promoting homosexuals that some here would have you believe.

I am perfectly willing to believe that evolution was the means by which God created life on this earth. I believe the earth and life on it is millions of years old and that the Hebrew telling of Adam and Eve are allegorical in nature and not literal. I think the climate is controlled by physical laws which God himself understands perfectly and which even he must live by. The same is true for the movements of the planets and stars and other physical manifestations of the universe. God is not a magician nor does he conspire to confuse his children by deliberately making the world and the universe incomprehensible to them.

I think that the ten tribes are scattered across the world's population but I do not think they live in a hollow earth, on the sun or any other such fanciful place. I do not think there will ever be a call out, such is the creation of a frenzied imagination of a few people some of whom have been taken advantage of by those seeking to make a quick buck. (Priestcraft anyone?)

I think that vaccines, like all medicines, can have negative effects on some small number of person they are given to but on the whole they protect us from diseases that have tormented man for millennia.

There is no common consensus as to the geography of the Book of Mormon and proposal run the gambit from limited to hemispheric geographies and even those that are not placed in the Americas at all. In the end where or how the events took place is not as important as the lessons we can take from the book itself.

Energy healing is the belief that the body has an energy field which can be manipulated to improve mental and physical health by means of another. (the practitioner) It has it origins in east asian traditional medical practices. It has become fashionable in some circles of late both with in and outside of the Church. It is a sort of "New Age" practice. So long as one does not rely on it exclusively in time of medical need I see little harm in it.

By the way I am 61 years old a member of a family that bridges across the two main branches of the restoration (LDS and RLDS) I grew up in Maine an Atlantic Canada and have lived and worked around the world including Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Mtaylasia, Canada, South Africa, Denmark, the Netherland, and Sweden.

How is the President a fascist? The Left has become unhinged and are the real fascists. They are always trying to stop the Right from speaking.

A fair question, unlike many on the left I use the word fascist here in it classical meaning. Namely the political philosophy developed and articulated by Benito Mussolini [1883-1945] this approach was one of public distaste for civic institutions and democratic processes. Fascism hold that the ends justifies the means and that the leadership of the one supersedes all other interested. From very early on Donald Trump has exhibited all the political traits of traditional fascist leaders from the mid 20th century. For example at his speech at the GOP convention where he said that he alone was the only hope for America, his habit of saying what ever is expedient at the moment and then denying he ever said it, even when tape is produced of him doing so. His dismissal of any news story even mildly critical of him as “fake news”. All of this and more are plays right out of Mussolini’s play book.

Now most o today’s liberals who throw the word fascist about have no real idea just what fascism is or what it entails. They just know people hat fascism, by the way technically Hitler was not a fascist an generally held the Italian and other fascist leaders in low regard.

I would suggest the following book: Mussolini Mack Smith, Denis ISBN 9780394506944 for an overview of the development and political philosophy of classical fascism. YOu will then seen how I have come to the conclusion that Donald Trump is cut from the same cloth as figures such as Mussolini or Franco.

I was going to comment on you calling Trump a Fascist , as I was confused that someone such as yourself( an informed individual) would fall for this trap of calling Right Wingers Fascists. I've spent quite a bit of time studying Fascism, it's Fascinating. You are correct, most liberals misunderstand Fascism. Props to you for at least studying what Fascism REALLY is, even if your conclusion is different from mine.

Even among scholars who have studied Fascism in detail disagree on what it really is. I don't see how Trump can be described as a Fascist. If one were to read everything Mussolini ever wrote on Fascism, there's no way such a person would come out of it and claim Trump is a fascist.

edit: I'm mostly talking from a standpoint of ideology. As Person I can understand people comparing him to Fascist-like figures from the past, but I'm sure many Business and Religious leaders have the same traits.

gkearney wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 3:19 pm

AGStacker wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 1:55 pm

gkearney wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 3:38 pm One thing your going to find here is that there is no consensus here at all.

I'm a liberal labor Democrat, I can't stand Trump, I don't vote for or support fascist. That said I am likely the most liberal, politically, poster you are likely going to find on these forums. I try to prove that not everyone on the "left" are a bunch of screaming abortion promoting homosexuals that some here would have you believe.

I am perfectly willing to believe that evolution was the means by which God created life on this earth. I believe the earth and life on it is millions of years old and that the Hebrew telling of Adam and Eve are allegorical in nature and not literal. I think the climate is controlled by physical laws which God himself understands perfectly and which even he must live by. The same is true for the movements of the planets and stars and other physical manifestations of the universe. God is not a magician nor does he conspire to confuse his children by deliberately making the world and the universe incomprehensible to them.

I think that the ten tribes are scattered across the world's population but I do not think they live in a hollow earth, on the sun or any other such fanciful place. I do not think there will ever be a call out, such is the creation of a frenzied imagination of a few people some of whom have been taken advantage of by those seeking to make a quick buck. (Priestcraft anyone?)

I think that vaccines, like all medicines, can have negative effects on some small number of person they are given to but on the whole they protect us from diseases that have tormented man for millennia.

There is no common consensus as to the geography of the Book of Mormon and proposal run the gambit from limited to hemispheric geographies and even those that are not placed in the Americas at all. In the end where or how the events took place is not as important as the lessons we can take from the book itself.

Energy healing is the belief that the body has an energy field which can be manipulated to improve mental and physical health by means of another. (the practitioner) It has it origins in east asian traditional medical practices. It has become fashionable in some circles of late both with in and outside of the Church. It is a sort of "New Age" practice. So long as one does not rely on it exclusively in time of medical need I see little harm in it.

By the way I am 61 years old a member of a family that bridges across the two main branches of the restoration (LDS and RLDS) I grew up in Maine an Atlantic Canada and have lived and worked around the world including Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Mtaylasia, Canada, South Africa, Denmark, the Netherland, and Sweden.

How is the President a fascist? The Left has become unhinged and are the real fascists. They are always trying to stop the Right from speaking.

A fair question, unlike many on the left I use the word fascist here in it classical meaning. Namely the political philosophy developed and articulated by Benito Mussolini [1883-1945] this approach was one of public distaste for civic institutions and democratic processes. Fascism holds that the ends justifies the means and that the leadership of the one supersedes all other interests. From very early on Donald Trump has exhibited all the political traits of traditional fascist leaders from the mid 20th century. For example at his speech at the GOP convention where he said that he alone was the only hope for America, his habit of saying what ever is expedient at the moment and then denying he ever said it, even when tape is produced of him doing so. His dismissal of any news story even mildly critical of him as “fake news”. All of this and more are right out of Mussolini’s play book.

Now most of today’s liberals who throw the word fascist about have no real idea just what fascism is or what it entails. They just know people hate fascism, by the way technically Hitler was not a fascist an generally held the Italian and other fascist leaders in low regard.

I would suggest the following book: Mussolini Mack Smith, Denis ISBN 9780394506944 for an overview of the development and political philosophy of classical fascism. YOu will then seen how I have come to the conclusion that Donald Trump is cut from the same cloth as figures such as Mussolini or Franco.

That seems like a narrow take on fascism. Egotistical does not equal fascist. Bad style is not fascist. When trump shuts down the "fake news" press then he will be a fascist. Here's a truer view of fascism IMO in about 5 minutes: If that's too simple, here's the 2 hour version: This is an important subject and one that I would like to know more about. I've posted these videos on here before with a request for someone to debunk it. Someone said it was false but couldn't say which part or how it is false. I want Dinesh to be wrong because of the scary place that he puts us in if he's right.

Juliet wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 4:26 pm I would be interested in knowing if those who are pro-vaccine have had healthy kids after using the normal vaccine schedule in the last ten years. Most mothers I talk to; like me, believed in them until our kid got sick by it in which case we were triggered to research further.

I have done all the vaccines on my 4 kids ages 16-11 and they are all healthy and normal. No problems, no worries except the pain of the shots

gkearney wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 12:34 pm

shadow wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 12:10 pm

EdGoble wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:24 am

shadow wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 11:12 am Is it also a sin, in your mind, to vaccinate a child who has adverse reactions to vaccines and dies?

Nice try. The minuscule potential of that is far outweighed by the benefits. I can see there are strong opinions on this issue on this forum.
This ends my comments on this issue.

I figured you wouldn't answer.

Well I’ll answer. If you have a child with a known adverse reactions to a particular vaccine or has a medical condition which prevents the use of vaccines such as lukemmia and you proceeded to administer that vaccine anyway then that would be a sin. It would also be medical malpractice as well

It's pretty obvious that I was addressing a general thing about society in general and not addressing all the legit exceptions that ought to be addressed one at a time, because they are exceptions.

Juliet wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 4:26 pm I would be interested in knowing if those who are pro-vaccine have had healthy kids after using the normal vaccine schedule in the last ten years. Most mothers I talk to; like me, believed in them until our kid got sick by it in which case we were triggered to research further.

All 3 of my young kids have had all vaccines on schedule. Never a negative reaction. They're all healthy. My 7 year old daughter had a crazy reaction to the flu shot in November so she likely won't get that one again. That likely was due to an egg allergy we didn't know about until then.

justme wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 2:54 pm First I apologize beforehand if any of this sounds snarky or judgemental or sounds like a personal attack that is not my intent.

Just a little about myself to set context. I am a lifetime member or over 50 years and family has been in church for 11 generations since 1831. I served a mission, sealed with kids and grandkids, been through graduate school at Provo, and live in an almost entirely LDS community. I thought I knew the church well until I happened onto this forum.

Among the people and colleagues that I deal with I know no Trump supporters and no anti vaxers. I had not heard of the call out, I had never heard of a belief in MMP, never heard of the davidic servant. I don't know anyone who believes the lost ten tribes really are isolated someplace waiting to return, most everyone I know believes in evolution and an ancient earth and some degree of climate change. I thought that the common consensus for BOM geography was a spatially limited mesoamerican theory. I had never heard of energy healing. All of this is new to me.

What has been your experience?

We tend to associate with like minded individuals. This sometimes skews the perception of a group of people in our minds. I have been a lifetime member and we have many generations of members in my family as well. The area I live in is probably 90% Mormon and nearly everyone that I converse with is either a Trump supporter or they don't voice their opinion at all. Of my family, friends, and coworkers, I only know of one individual that hates Trump and wants him impeached. He wants "democratic socialism" and considers himself a liberal though..... sooooo. It's interesting that viewpoints can seem to change just based of of where you live. We are both surrounded by a Mormon community, yet we have quite different experiences with members regarding politics. I did not vote for Trump, but I do agree with a lot of what he has done during his presidency so far and I don't want him impeached. I always remain skeptical of people because of my nature, how I was raised, and what I've read about secret combinations though.

"Anti-vaxxers" usually do not speak up as much in person or in instances where their identity is known because of fear of ridicule. They are more vocal on internet forums where their loved ones won't judge and condemn them. I know and network with many "anti-vaxxers" that are both Mormon and in my community. However, If you do not consider yourself an "anti-vaxxer" then the odds of you communicating with others are very slim. I don't like to bring up the subject to most people I converse with in person because I know that most "pro-vaxxers" pass cruel judgment. For instance, one of the other posters on this very thread said they believe you are sinning if you do not vaccinate. As absurd as that sounds to me, that's the kind of judgment that I feel sometimes, so I just do not bring it up.

My dad was on these forums for years until his passing in 2013. But he has always raised me by teaching me different aspects of the gospel. I've always been aware of multiple view points regarding doctrine, politics, conspiracies, and religious theories. But I come to these forums for multiple reasons. I love to hear the many views. I like to look at things from different angles that I've never considered. I like to feel challenged. I also like to feel validated, or rather, not as much an out cast. I feel like I am sort of an inbetweener. I 100% believe in the gospel, BofM, Joseph Smith, the works. But I don't like Fast and Testimony meeting. I don't like to go to gospel doctrine very often. I hold some view points about the gospel that I feel more comfortable expressing here than I would over the pulpit. I lurk a whole lot more than I post, so I come here to read about others that believe the same way I do so I don't have to feel so alone some times.

What I like and think is interesting though.... is that when I come here I can agree with one person on one topic and then completely disagree with them on a separate topic.

justme wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 2:54 pm First I apologize beforehand if any of this sounds snarky or judgemental or sounds like a personal attack that is not my intent.

Just a little about myself to set context. I am a lifetime member or over 50 years and family has been in church for 11 generations since 1831. I served a mission, sealed with kids and grandkids, been through graduate school at Provo, and live in an almost entirely LDS community. I thought I knew the church well until I happened onto this forum.

Among the people and colleagues that I deal with I know no Trump supporters and no anti vaxers. I had not heard of the call out, I had never heard of a belief in MMP, never heard of the davidic servant. I don't know anyone who believes the lost ten tribes really are isolated someplace waiting to return, most everyone I know believes in evolution and an ancient earth and some degree of climate change. I thought that the common consensus for BOM geography was a spatially limited mesoamerican theory. I had never heard of energy healing. All of this is new to me.

What has been your experience?

It’s been amazing to come to this forum after receiving confirmation that certain principles are true and that there are other with the same view points. I stumbled upon this forum maybe 7-8 years ago and thought a lot of the ideas were absolutely bonkers (Roger K Young stuff, call out, end is nigh preppers). But since then I’ve become a huge trump supporter, been involved in energy healing, believe the lost tribes might even be not on this earth and possibley inside the earth, very very skeptical on man made climate change, old earth creationist, skeptical of vaccines, believe in MMP, and know there’s a lot of evidence for BoM in the Midwest of this country (however, I’m a hemispherist like almost all members were for the first 120-150 years of the church), and hope there will be a Davidic servant. Most of my views I’d never share in church in a million years so we talk about it hear on this forum. In general many of us are extremely educated on all things church and gospel related. It’s a hobby for us and we have strong eternal perspectives. (Trigger warning really controversial claim) Many people on this forum carry the genetics of Jesus so we see and understand things differently than other people. Our minds and spirits are open to more advance and hidden principles that can’t be revealed to the church or world at large yet so we’ve found a niche here.

justme wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 6:13 pm

Vision wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 5:23 pm

justme wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 2:54 pm First I apologize beforehand if any of this sounds snarky or judgemental or sounds like a personal attack that is not my intent.

Just a little about myself to set context. I am a lifetime member or over 50 years and family has been in church for 11 generations since 1831. I served a mission, sealed with kids and grandkids, been through graduate school at Provo, and live in an almost entirely LDS community. I thought I knew the church well until I happened onto this forum.

Among the people and colleagues that I deal with I know no Trump supporters and no anti vaxers. I had not heard of the call out, I had never heard of a belief in MMP, never heard of the davidic servant. I don't know anyone who believes the lost ten tribes really are isolated someplace waiting to return, most everyone I know believes in evolution and an ancient earth and some degree of climate change. I thought that the common consensus for BOM geography was a spatially limited mesoamerican theory. I had never heard of energy healing. All of this is new to me.

What has been your experience?

Justme are you really Mitt Romney? He has to be the only guy that knows no Trump supporters.

Ha no. I hear rumors of others that have to deal with uncles at family dinners that support Trump. But all the water cooler talk at my office is absolutely anti trump. We day dream of impeachment, or at least count the days till the next election. There might be some others in the office with secret unspoken views but I haven't heard any. And the political makeup is probably 95 percent republican and 100 percent lds.

I’ve been absolutely mortified to see how politically cuckolded lds men have become in my lifetime. It’s sickening.