[ALLEGED] Current Mormon Apostate Apostle Confession letter

[I AM]

First of all, I believe this to be a total fabrication. Why? Because it is just a repackaging of tired anti-Mormon talking points. Even if it turns out to be a true statement, who cares? Nobody is infallible. We've had general authorities go apostate and fight against the church before. Yawn!

Second, I take umbrage with this argument, regardless of who utters it:

"Is God, as the creator, actually relegating those who claim to be gay--since birth--to a life of complete celibacy? If “man is that he might have joy,” then where is the joy of man to be found for such individuals? Did God make them this way? What do science and biology have to say about this issue?"

How pathetic of mind and reason do you have to be to fail to grasp the fact that we were ALL born with traits that, if left unchecked, will keep us out of God's kingdom? Why should gay people get a pass on immorality when the adulterers, polygamists, exhibitionists, pornographers, fornicators, and swingers do not? How does one take the phrase "man is that he might have joy," and arrive at the conclusion that joy is synonymous with sex? If the only joy one can find in life is in their pants, life must be pretty empty and meaningless. Christ didn't tell people to "get it on." He told us to take up our crosses and deny ourselves of all ungodliness. That includes gay people.

Homosexuality is an abomination! It IS disgusting..........

Hang on their Toast. You can argue about ideas, but no attacking an individual poster. That is against the rules.

Point taken, let me rephrase that, the idea in the remark is insensitive to people who are gay(5-14% of members). Isn't sex a big part of joy? Seems to me that the apostle was making a good point, but that is perhaps where our opinions may differ.

5-14% of members are NOT anything other than heterosexual. I don't even think it reaches 2%. 14% is like 1 in 7, for Pete's sake! That's ridiculous.

You gave yourself away when you wrote, "You disgust me." That just shrieks LGBT outrage.

I don't know why you'd want to hang around the church, hoping it will change to accommodate sodomitical proclivities. Even if they bend, this would be a hollow victory, because your conscience will still convict you. Bullying others into thinking it's okay won't solve that problem, either. It could sure keep you busy, though.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MxCXjfAunk[/youtube]
Great youtube comment that sums it up.
"Holly Castillo
5 years ago
A lot of commenters still seem hooked on the fact that this "is wrong" so how dare he support it being an active Mormon? Whether being LGBT is wrong or not is not the point at all of this talk, it is the point that our intolerance and hate as a culture (Mormon culture, Christian culture, American culture, whatever culture you want to use) is causing death. This issue is causing individuals to come to such deep despair that they are committing suicide. As far as I remember, we are commanded (in every religion) to comfort those in need of comfort, and LOVE our neighbor. This is not about Bible thumping to prove whether or not LGBT persons are evil, it is about loving people like Christ did. And if you are choosing not to love people you find to be sinners, you are a worse sinner yourself. "

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6RBOvYDW4Y[/youtube]

--------------
you said:
"This issue is causing individuals to come to such deep despair that they are committing suicide."

so you think just because of that we should passively accept them and what they do and love them the way they are, just as we should with anyone, because we all sin to one degree or another.
Well, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT !
only you're forgetting the rest of the story, the most important part OF LOVE,
and the real kind of LOVE Jesus taught, and that is to " go, and sin no more."
DON'T just justify what you're doing, see what you are doing is wrong, and instead of the excuse and cop out and saying you are committing suicide and want others to just accept you because you want to continue to do what you want to do and feel it's okay the way you are - no need to change;
be sorry for what you are doing, because IT"S WRONG, and see and accept that you are offending God and His eternal plan by doing it, and repent and come to Him with a broken heart and contrite spirit , and "go, and sin no more."

you see, there's right, and there's wrong.
what's wrong is wrong, and can NEVER be right or just okay and accepted by God.
We are here on Earth to learn to change our wrong's and do what's right.
NOT to just passively accept our wrongs and others, or want God to change to fit our selfish desires and change His laws and make what's wrong - right just so you can be accepted.

sorry, but it's not love to want God to change to you and your twisted carnal desires.
I think you have what Jesus taught just a little bit wrong, and you need to go and read more about Jesus and what He taught besides mercy; because justice and righteousness are just as important and are a part of what real love is.
Jesus loved the sinner, but not the sin, and told them when they were doing something wrong and to repent and "go, and sin no more."

and He said.
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15

5 Wherefore, I give unto them a commandment, saying thus: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy might, mind, and strength; and in the name of Jesus Christ thou shalt serve him.
D&C 59:5


37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Matthew 10:37-38

[Toast]

Toast,
Do you believe that homosexual sex activity is sinful? Or, do you believe that if two men, or two women, are legally married (according to the law) that their sexual activity is not sinful?

I believe that hetero and homosexual sex, in or outside of marriage, is not a sin. If I did, I wouldn't have regular sex with my boyfriend whom I love.

[Fiannan]

Toast,
Do you believe that homosexual sex activity is sinful? Or, do you believe that if two men, or two women, are legally married (according to the law) that their sexual activity is not sinful?

I believe that hetero and homosexual sex, in or outside of marriage, is not a sin. If I did, I wouldn't have regular sex with my boyfriend whom I love.

Are you a man or woman?

[iWriteStuff]

Toast,
Do you believe that homosexual sex activity is sinful? Or, do you believe that if two men, or two women, are legally married (according to the law) that their sexual activity is not sinful?

I believe that hetero and homosexual sex, in or outside of marriage, is not a sin. If I did, I wouldn't have regular sex with my boyfriend whom I love.

I think I'm starting to get a better picture of where you're coming from now.... Your belief system is not only way outside the LDS norm, but at complete variance with regular Bible-based religions as well.

Where exactly do you draw the line for sin? Because if fornication and sodomy don't fit the bill, not much else does.

[innocentoldguy]

First of all, I believe this to be a total fabrication. Why? Because it is just a repackaging of tired anti-Mormon talking points. Even if it turns out to be a true statement, who cares? Nobody is infallible. We've had general authorities go apostate and fight against the church before. Yawn!

Second, I take umbrage with this argument, regardless of who utters it:

"Is God, as the creator, actually relegating those who claim to be gay--since birth--to a life of complete celibacy? If “man is that he might have joy,” then where is the joy of man to be found for such individuals? Did God make them this way? What do science and biology have to say about this issue?"

How pathetic of mind and reason do you have to be to fail to grasp the fact that we were ALL born with traits that, if left unchecked, will keep us out of God's kingdom? Why should gay people get a pass on immorality when the adulterers, polygamists, exhibitionists, pornographers, fornicators, and swingers do not? How does one take the phrase "man is that he might have joy," and arrive at the conclusion that joy is synonymous with sex? If the only joy one can find in life is in their pants, life must be pretty empty and meaningless. Christ didn't tell people to "get it on." He told us to take up our crosses and deny ourselves of all ungodliness. That includes gay people.

Wow, I'm absolutely blown away.. People like you unwittingly influence gay youth to commit suicide. You disgust me.

Wow! That's quite the non-sequitur you've got going on there. I also enjoy the virtue-signaling and group-identity blinders you appear to have on. If I think about your argument as a newspaper headline, I can imagine something like, "Religious views on morality influence gay youth to commit suicide, heterosexual youth are immune!" Don't you think that is an unreasonable and illogical conclusion to leap to, not to mention discriminatory and dismissive towards heterosexual youth?

People with same-sex passions are no different than people with opposite-sex attractions and the church treats both equally. For example, my best friend is gay. He's married to a woman and has children, but he is attracted to men sexually. When he acted on those sexual impulses and had sex with men outside his marriage, he was excommunicated. One of my other friends is also gay. He does not act on his sexual desires and serves in his stake presidency. The church doesn't care if someone is gay. They only care if you break the Lord's commandments regarding chastity; whether you're gay or not.

Personally, I love women. I think they're the best things on Earth and if I were to follow my sexual desires, I'd have sex with every willing woman on the planet. It would be my full-time job and sole means of recreation. When I was younger, I acted out on my sexual desires and had sex with other women outside my marriage. Guess what? I was excommunicated, just like my friend. I had to follow all the steps of repentance to return to the church, just like my friend. I had to wait to have my blessings restored, just like my friend. Weird! It's almost like the church has a policy on morality that applies equally to everyone! The church treated both me and my friend EXACTLY the same. Where's the injustice? Where's the discrimination? That's right! There wasn't any!

Let's take a step back a few years... When I was a teen, I was told that pornography, onanism, necking, and petting were all bad, and I was instructed that I needed to repent and refrain from doing those things. My best friend was counseled to refrain from those EXACT SAME THINGS. The only difference between us was that I was involved in these activities with girls and my friend was involved with guys. Again, where's the inequality? Where's the discrimination? It doesn't exist!

From personal experience, I can tell you that guilt and shame do NOT come from someone telling you that what you are doing is wrong. It comes from within. It comes from the spirit whispering to your heart that you are on the wrong path and you KNOW that through and through. Sure, many people try to push back, blame those feelings on others, and justify their actions, but that doesn't make their guilt any less absolute. No amount of virtue-signaling and baseless disgust on your part is going to change that. What will? Repentance on the part of the sinner and a true desire to lay hold upon Christ's atonement and change. This is true of gays, just as it is true of everyone else on the planet. There is nothing unique or special about being gay. It is just another lust of the flesh that people have to overcome. I'm sure it isn't easy, but guess what? It isn't easy for anyone. Acting out homosexual desires isn't different than any other sinful and rebellious behavior we all commit and it certainly isn't deserving of some sort of special dispensation from the church or from the Lord. The law of chastity applies to us all equally.

If equality amongst all of God's children disgusts you, and you think non-gay youth should be discriminated against via more and stricter commandments, you'll have to take that up with the Lord. I didn't set the rules and no amount of impotent public shaming on your part is going to change that.

[Zathura]

Toast,
Do you believe that homosexual sex activity is sinful? Or, do you believe that if two men, or two women, are legally married (according to the law) that their sexual activity is not sinful?

I believe that hetero and homosexual sex, in or outside of marriage, is not a sin. If I did, I wouldn't have regular sex with my boyfriend whom I love.

If you're a Christian then I don't know what to tell ya. The bible is quite clear. You do you.
I'm assuming you're a regular on r/exmormon where half the posts are celebrating something LGBTQ related?

[Robin Hood]

Toast,
Do you believe that homosexual sex activity is sinful? Or, do you believe that if two men, or two women, are legally married (according to the law) that their sexual activity is not sinful?

I believe that hetero and homosexual sex, in or outside of marriage, is not a sin. If I did, I wouldn't have regular sex with my boyfriend whom I love.

Have you ever read those things we sometimes use in the church; you may have come across them from time to time... you know.... scriptures?

[innocentoldguy]

Toast,
Do you believe that homosexual sex activity is sinful? Or, do you believe that if two men, or two women, are legally married (according to the law) that their sexual activity is not sinful?

I believe that hetero and homosexual sex, in or outside of marriage, is not a sin. If I did, I wouldn't have regular sex with my boyfriend whom I love.

I fully, 100%, support your right to choose to live your life however you want, as long as your actions don't harm others or infringe upon their rights. Free agency is a gift from God and you have every right in the world do exercise it to its fullest.

Having said that, your actions do go against the Lord's commandments and the laws of the church. So, while you, without question, have the right to act out whatever fantasies you wish with your boyfriend, you have no rights or claims to full membership in the church because you are not abiding by its precepts. If you have a problem with that, then it is you who needs to change. If not, then you're good to go and there's no point in this discussion, right?

[Lizzy60]

Toast,
Do you believe that homosexual sex activity is sinful? Or, do you believe that if two men, or two women, are legally married (according to the law) that their sexual activity is not sinful?

I believe that hetero and homosexual sex, in or outside of marriage, is not a sin. If I did, I wouldn't have regular sex with my boyfriend whom I love.

I fully, 100%, support your right to choose to live your life however you want, as long as your actions don't harm others or infringe upon their rights. Free agency is a gift from God and you have every right in the world do exercise it to its fullest.

Having said that, your actions do go against the Lord's commandments and the laws of the church. So, while you, without question, have the right to act out whatever fantasies you wish with your boyfriend, you have no rights or claims to full membership in the church because you are not abiding by its precepts. If you have a problem with that, then it is you who needs to change. If not, then you're good to go and there's no point in this discussion, right?

I agree with this. If you want to be a member of any church or organization, you need to abide by the rules (laws, commandments, whatever) that the organization sets. If you don't want to obey, then you are free to find another group.

HOWEVER, this is what is causing the problem with the LDS pro-LGBT and pro-gay marriage folks. They want the rules to change. They want the entire church, from Pres Nelson down to the newest member, to decide that gay sex is sanctioned by God, especially in a "marriage". They say it's unkind, unfair, unloving, unChristlike, and even evil, that anyone believes that their homosexual activity is sinful in the eyes of the Church, and in the eyes of God. Then they pull out the suicidal ideation hot button. If you don't love me just the way I am, I'm gonna kill myself, and it will be YOUR FAULT!!

[Smfredy]

I guess it could be an apostle from another religion?

[Toast]

Are you a man or woman?

Why is that important? So other posters here can speculate on my testosterone level? Not important.

Where exactly do you draw the line for sin? Because if fornication and sodomy don't fit the bill, not much else does.

I recently read a great quote by Shakespeare, "Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so", and I kind of see the logic of that. I have been evolving away from the 'lds norm' but remain ever curious about it as I am still surrounded by the culture.

[innocentoldguy]

A lot of commenters still seem hooked on the fact that this "is wrong" so how dare he support it being an active Mormon? Whether being LGBT is wrong or not is not the point at all of this talk, it is the point that our intolerance and hate as a culture (Mormon culture, Christian culture, American culture, whatever culture you want to use) is causing death. This issue is causing individuals to come to such deep despair that they are committing suicide. As far as I remember, we are commanded (in every religion) to comfort those in need of comfort, and LOVE our neighbor. This is not about Bible thumping to prove whether or not LGBT persons are evil, it is about loving people like Christ did. And if you are choosing not to love people you find to be sinners, you are a worse sinner yourself. "

The reason a lot of commenters still seem to be hooked on the fact that homosexuality is wrong is that it is. It's that simple.

It seems to me that you are conflating acceptance of you as a person with acceptance of your sins, and wrongly assuming that people rejecting your sins is synonymous with intolerance and hatred towards you. That is a false statement. Not only is it entirely possible for people to accept you as a person and completely reject your sins, but it is also the norm. If that weren't the case, nobody in the church would ever be accepted by anybody because everyone in the church, from President Nelson down to me and you, are all sinners.

Does that make sense?

[Toast]

I can see I am not as devout or solid in the faith as many of you on here, and you are certainly calling me to repentance, but I sincerely wanted to get your take on some of the issues raised in the Apostle letter, is real or not, since he seemed to sound authentic to me in many ways and raised some issues I haven't heard of before. I didn't know you were going to make it about me. I'm not trying to offend anyone here, I thought you might help me see if it was real or not, that's all.

And, what I hear poster's saying is that the letter is merely what I want to hear. Okay thanks.

[thestock]

This is a hoax plain and simple. If I were an Apostle who suddenly realized my life's work was a fraud....I wouldnt release some anonymous letter one week before General Conference. I'd have the balls to get up IN General Conference and give the evidence for why I have arrived at the conclusion and let the world know, you know....as a special witness, the truths I have discovered. They may bum-rush me off the stand....but that is how I would go out. Not some wussy anonymous letter lol.

And Toast....man this is pretty pathetic on your part. I have no ill-feelings for you being gay. If you want to be flaming homosexual....by all means....go enjoy your life. Why do you care what anyone else thinks? Do what you feel is the right thing to do. If you find that you are hollow and empty inside....you can't fill that void by trolling people of a faith and trying to get them to agree with you. You can fill that void by......trying something different. Maybe change your lifestyle. If you can reconcile being gay with your relationship with God....by all means....we are all sinners. We all have to figure this life out. Good luck.

[Fiannan]

I guess it could be an apostle from another religion?

Or another dimension. People should avoid channeling some of those dudes in parallel universes.

[Zathura]

I can see I am not as devout or solid in the faith as many of you on here, and you are certainly calling me to repentance, but I sincerely wanted to get your take on some of the issues raised in the Apostle letter, is real or not, since he seemed to sound authentic to me in many ways and raised some issues I haven't heard of before. I didn't know you were going to make it about me. I'm not trying to offend anyone here, I thought you might help me see if it was real or not, that's all.

And, what I hear poster's saying is that the letter is merely what I want to hear. Okay thanks.

It's regrettable that this was derailed into a different topic(People often make it about the messenger rather than the message). If someone wants to start a different thread (Or you) then we can discuss it there.

I think the general consensus is that the letter isn't legit. It's hard to believe one of the Q12 would take some of the sources cited seriously(some are legit, others are on shaky ground) and use some of the phrases the letter used, and above all, that he would abandon a belief in God. It's believable that an Apostle could leave the Church, but this is a bit too much.

[innocentoldguy]

I recently read a great quote by Shakespeare, "Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so", and I kind of see the logic of that. I have been evolving away from the 'lds norm' but remain ever curious about it as I am still surrounded by the culture.

Regarding your "evolving away from the 'lds [sic] norm'" comment. You seem a bit angry and frustrated by that move, to the point that you're kind of lashing out on a forum dedicated to ideas you currently disagree with. I know when I was younger and had my own "evolving away" period that led to adultery, I said similar things. When it came right down to it though, it wasn't a passive curiosity from an elevated intellectual and moral vantage point that I was experiencing. Instead, it was a battle between my own guilt and my ego's attempts to justify my bad decision-making, push the onus of my choices upon others, and allow me to keep thinking I was a "good person." Might I suggest you take a step inward, shove your ego aside, and truly evaluate yourself and your motives? You might discover, as I did, that you are the author of your own unhappiness and loathing. Only when you discover and honestly address that root-cause can you truly find joy. Just a thought...

[setyourselffree]

Homosexuality is an abomination! It IS disgusting..........

I bet you are gonna say your against anal sex too?

[Fiannan]

Homosexuality is an abomination! It IS disgusting..........

I bet you are gonna say your against anal sex too?

Why the heck are you bringing that up???

[thestock]

^^ yeah bad form. Seriously.

[innocentoldguy]

I can see I am not as devout or solid in the faith as many of you on here, and you are certainly calling me to repentance, but I sincerely wanted to get your take on some of the issues raised in the Apostle letter, is real or not, since he seemed to sound authentic to me in many ways and raised some issues I haven't heard of before. I didn't know you were going to make it about me. I'm not trying to offend anyone here, I thought you might help me see if it was real or not, that's all.

And, what I hear poster's saying is that the letter is merely what I want to hear. Okay thanks.

I cannot speak for anybody else, but my original comment was about the letter. Not you. I didn't know anything about you. You twisted our dialogue into a personal conversation when you made a value judgment about me regarding my original comment, which is fine. I'm not offended.

I have several gay friends, three of whom are church members. I have talked in great depth with them about those challenges and shared with them some of my own. My intent in talking with you wasn't to "call you to repentance," per se, but to offer a different way of thinking about things. Sometimes, we get so caught up in our own challenges that we fail to see that everyone else has them too. We think our situation is unique and nobody else understands. I didn't share my past sins with you on a public forum to belittle or shame you but to show you that we all have our lusts, desires, rebellions, and weaknesses. You're not the odd man out in a sea of perfection. You're just another sinner along with the rest of us and God knew that would be the case all along. So, be of good cheer and look to Christ and you will find the joy promised by the scriptures. It seems you may have taken my commentary in a different way, as a personal judgment against you. If that's the case, I apologize. That wasn't my intent. I hope that is apparent now.

Regarding the letter, I think it is fake because it isn't signed and I would expect a general authority to have more courage than that. It also rehashes tired anti-Mormon dogma, much have which has been repeatedly disproven. I would expect a general authority to be smarter than that. Finally, members of the Quorum of the Twelve are "special witnesses" of Jesus Christ. That means they have more of a witness than you or I do. When they share their testimony of Christ, it is with the conviction of first-hand knowledge and experience, which is not the same as the testimony I would bear, for instance, which is based on hope, faith, and the confirmation of The Spirit.

[innocentoldguy]

I bet you are gonna say your against anal sex too?

The church's law of chastity simply states that sexual relationships should only exist between a lawfully married man and woman. It doesn't presume to dictate what that relationship looks like. The problem with homosexuality has nothing to do with one's anus and everything to do with the violation of the bounds within which sexual relationships should occur.

[Silver Pie]

Hmm, does this sound like something one of these octogenarians or older would write? Hard to know who it is, though - they covered their tracks as far as domain registration. They had the means for an https certificate as well. Looks like doings of a younger writer working for some anti- group who doesn't mind spending some money to damage the church.

Have an extra thumbs up.

[Silver Pie]

LoL yeah this was awesome. I can just see Elders Holland or Bednar pouring over the works of Fawn Brodie or Hitchens like "oooh that's true! I never considered that before. Well my whole life has been a sham. Thanks for waking me up." Thanks Toast. This was a good one

The thing is, when would an apostle even have the time to do all that research? They are kept so busy with both arms of the church (the for-profit and the ecclesiastical) that they barely have time to themselves, let alone study all of that.

[EllaJean]

I was starting to fall for this letter until I read one line and knew that the person who wrote this letter real apostle or not, no longer has the spirit with them. The line where it states, " I leave you with my sincere and humble testimony........ not that He lives, but that We live!" was a dead giveaway. A true apostle of Jesus Christ would never make this statement. The sole purpose and calling of an apostle is to be a special witness of Jesus Christ. To deny that He lives is an anti-christ. What's sad is that this letter may lead some to have some serious doubts if they can't discern for themselves the true source or intention behind this very well deceitful and crafted letter.