LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **March 31st, 2019, 7:48 am**

Of course there is one other dynamic, that is reproduction as a driving force in the sub-conscious. After a war, fertility rises. After each plague, fertility rose. There are a lot of variables that may contribute to this but one that has been noted is that if a people feel under threat of extinction their fertility increases to compensate for loses incurred. There is even some evidence that in such events young women go into puberty at a younger age.

Okay, if we have a desire to preserve ourselves, even at a tribal level, then what if the opposite is true? What if we adopt behaviors that are counter to reproduction if we are taught that there are too many humans on earth? I have heard some speculate that homosexuality may be a means of protecting a society from over-consumption. These people usually put this into a positive context. However, just as rats in the Calhoun studies displayed deviance when they did not have corners to nest in, might humans convinced the myth of overpopulation is true begin to engage in activities, not just homosexuality of course, that drives down the birthrate?

The sub-conscious is quite powerful. A man or woman knows, at the conscious level, that porn is merely a picture on a computer screen, and they will never meet, much less attract, the people they are observing. Yet their bodies and even brain responds as if they are in the room with the people, and that they are part of the activity. One can be hungry and see a painting of food and suddenly salivate. Sure, you think you are in control of your mental processes, but you are not. So what if intense propaganda against having babies causes some people, primarily men, to sublimate the desire to find a woman and make children towards men instead?

Romans 1 notes that a society turns away from God, then develops pride, then the men and women turn away from reproduction and then, yes then, turn to one another for sexual satisfaction.

Any thoughts?

Posted: **March 31st, 2019, 8:33 am**

Fiannan wrote: ↑March 31st, 2019, 7:48 am Of course there is one other dynamic, that is reproduction as a driving force in the sub-conscious. After a war, fertility rises. After each plague, fertility rose. There are a lot of variables that may contribute to this but one that has been noted is that if a people feel under threat of extinction their fertility increases to compensate for loses incurred. There is even some evidence that in such events young women go into puberty at a younger age.

Okay, if we have a desire to preserve ourselves, even at a tribal level, then what if the opposite is true? What if we adopt behaviors that are counter to reproduction if we are taught that there are too many humans on earth? I have heard some speculate that homosexuality may be a means of protecting a society from over-consumption. These people usually put this into a positive context. However, just as rats in the Calhoun studies displayed deviance when they did not have corners to nest in, might humans convinced the myth of overpopulation is true begin to engage in activities, not just homosexuality of course, that drives down the birthrate?

The sub-conscious is quite powerful. A man or woman knows, at the conscious level, that porn is merely a picture on a computer screen, and they will never meet, much less attract, the people they are observing. Yet their bodies and even brain responds as if they are in the room with the people, and that they are part of the activity. One can be hungry and see a painting of food and suddenly salivate. Sure, you think you are in control of your mental processes, but you are not. So what if intense propaganda against having babies causes some people, primarily men, to sublimate the desire to find a woman and make children towards men instead?

Romans 1 notes that a society turns away from God, then develops pride, then the men and women turn away from reproduction and then, yes then, turn to one another for sexual satisfaction.

Any thoughts?

Yes....
There is a God and His Angel's, and there is a devil and his angels. So there is truth and lies, there is good and evil, and black and white, and light and darkness.... point made.

You mentioned Roman's 1. Roman's 1 spells it out very clear, and, it cuts to the very of heart of the matter, which I think directly applies to us in our specific circumstance, in regards to our church and nation.
But of course we are so full of pride, that we are blinded to the fact, that because of our rejection of the truths God has revealed to us, through Joseph and others of this last dispensation, God has cursed us and our children with a "reprobate spirit" just like Apostle Paul spelled out in the plainest of terms in Roman's 1.
But no, we completely reject that "hypothesis", it can't be, our "science" says otherwise. Trouble is, our corrupted "Science" absolutely does not take into consideration that there is a God and a devil. But, sorry to say, there is a God and a Devil, and both have their countless servants, and all are very actively engaged in influencing mankind for good and for evil.
But again, mankind is so full of pride, that we refuse to acknowledge either, especially in the world of science.

Posted: **March 31st, 2019, 3:47 pm**

Toast wrote: ↑March 30th, 2019, 2:53 pm Clearly you don't know much about cancer or gay sex. You don't tickle the prostate, you stimulate the prostate, which many people, including heterosexual couples, thoroughly enjoy during sexual activities as it can enhance the pleasure. If you're grossed out by fecal matter, you should know that you or your partner have many options of 'cleaning prep' beforehand to avoid that. There is also the option of using a condom. Your assertion that anal sex causes cancer is false. Anal sex does not cause anal cancer.

You claim that gay sex causes physical damage to the body and is anything but love. I have three things to say to your claim of physical damage, lube, lube, and more lube. Also by listening and communicating with your partner during sex as to not hurt them because you care and love them, but that goes without saying. I firmly disagree with your claim that gay people can't have sex out of love. Why? Because gay people do in fact have sex out of love all the time, and your narrow-minded claim of the contrary can't change that.

I've seen a lot of no-good, very bad, awful, terrible and discapble things discussed on this forum over the years but this is an all time low.

Posted: **March 31st, 2019, 9:33 pm**

When you put it that way, Satan sounds like a cool guy!

What???

Posted: **March 31st, 2019, 9:37 pm**

I wish some posts were completely obliterated.....

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 2:26 am**

Fiannan wrote: ↑March 31st, 2019, 7:48 am ...However, just as rats in the Calhoun studies displayed deviance when they did not have corners to nest in, might humans convinced the myth of overpopulation is true begin to engage in activities, not just homosexuality of course, that drives down the birthrate?
...
Any thoughts?

I don't think people subconsciously become gay after coming to the belief that the earth is overpopulated.... Does anybody disagree with that?

Phantom wrote: ↑March 31st, 2019, 3:47 pm I've seen a lot of no-good, very bad, awful, terrible and discapble things discussed on this forum over the years but this is an all time low.

I clarified facts about, to be frank, made up misinformation like 'gay sex causes anal cancer' and, 'consenting gay sex is abuse', because those assertions are clearly false. Phantom, how is calling out misinformation an all time low? I think what's actually an all time low, is making up and spreading this kind of made up and misleading information about what abuse is, and nonexistent causes of cancer, to further the churches homophobic crusade.

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑March 30th, 2019, 2:09 pm Then there is the matter of anal leakage-which occurs after repeated usage of shoving things up where they don't believe, your rear is literally destroyed. Anal cancer; anal leakage, etc.

All of those things are very real abuse, you are either allowing someone to do these things to you or doing it to someone else; it is absolutely abuse.

Fiannan wrote: ↑March 31st, 2019, 9:33 pm
When you put it that way, Satan sounds like a cool guy!
What???

You heard that right. I believe that if "Satan influenced a Mormon Apostle to write this letter that supports homosexuals, because he wants homosexuals to be happy and not persecuted and shamed to death because God made them that way to see if they'd pass the 'trial' of being unhappy their entire life, if they make it that far.", then I must agree and stand with Satan! I think you guys neglect to consider what Jesus's brother has to say. It seems to me that he's onto something here.

In all honesty, I don't believe Jesus hates homosexuals at all, or that he believes it's a sin. He may be bi or homosexual himself! Who knows? I believe he loves homosexuals as much as he does anybody else because that's what he taught. I have serious doubts that the mormon prophets are really seers and revelators because Jesus loves homosexuals the same as anybody else and wouldn't allow so much suffering in his church. Now if they're talking to God, well, he's known to be pretty violent and cruel, so that would make more sense.

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 3:27 am**

Fiannan wrote: ↑March 31st, 2019, 5:45 am
Here is a quote about LGBT issues from Bill Reel's letter to the brethren that can be found here...
He speaks of science. Yet does he pinpoint what science? I have noted that there can be variables that could make one more predisposed to bisexuality in women based on testosterone driving both attraction to and interest in sex, but where are the genes that cause one to be gay? Studies have been conducted on testosterone levels in men and nothing has come out of it. Studies have been done on receptor sites for testosterone and, again, nothing. You can have identical male twins with the same foundational DNA and one is gay and one is straight.

Of course, in case a DNA marker was shown you better believe that secular people, not religious, will add that to the DNA tests done in-utero and, just like the vast majority of babies found to be downs syndrome the mothers will abort. Careful what you hope will be discovered I guess.

I didn't cite any science because a simple Google search will show you lots of science. Here's a quote from the first result of my Google search, it's regarding "gay genes". Source: https://www.livescience.com/50058-being ... hoice.html

No studies have found specific "gay genes" that reliably make someone gay. But some genes may make being gay likelier. For instance, a 2014 study in the journal Psychological Medicine(https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... 0C5F380343) showed that a gene on the X chromosome (one of the sex chromosomes) called Xq28 and a gene on chromosome 8 seem to be found in higher prevalence in men who are gay. That study, involving more than 400 pairs of gay brothers, followed the 1993 report by geneticist Dean Hamer suggesting the existence of a "gay gene." Other research has found that being gay or lesbian tends to run in families. It's also more likely for two identical twins, who share all of their genes, to both be gay than it is for two fraternal twins, who share just half of their genes, to both be homosexual. Those studies also suggest that genes seemed to have a greater influence on the sexual orientation of male versus female identical twins.

And here's an excellent article I recommend by HuffPost on the subject I found by simply researching on Google in less then 60 seconds. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/homosexu ... _n_2003361
The science and evidence regarding this issue goes on, and on, and on.

This brings me to another argument that the Apostle made in his letter that I really like. That is to research for yourself! Here's a great quote from the letter regarding this.

Yes, there are false and perverted arguments made for and against any topic in this information age, but it is important to note that the vetting process is there working within it all, and any determined and studious person who digs deep enough will find enough data, for and against a topic, to decide for him or herself what the truth is—at least enough to be mentally satisfied. Learning is inhibited when we cease to ask the questions, or we settle on conclusions given to us by others without verifying or analyzing them for ourselves.

If something is really true, it will stand up to scrutiny. Test it for yourself! Go out there and ask the questions yourself. Go and gather a wide array of facts, opinions, postulates, evidence, and sort the topics out, one by one. If you doubt your own conclusions, test them some more. Look at who else is reviewing the same things. Analyze it. Use your cognitive reasoning abilities. This is the Scientific Method. Don’t take my word for it, or anybody else’s word. We must look at the totality of a broad spectrum of sources and do the math. If there is no answer to a particular question, that is OK. There are many mysteries yet to discover, and discoveries are made every day, but we must be wary of embracing ideas just because they make us feel good, or feel special. We need to have a commitment to the truth wherever it leads.

We’ve all been taught to put our trust in Faith. It gives us hope. But faith does not give us the answers, necessarily; it merely prevents us from asking questions. Faith gives us the ability to suspend reason and ignore evidence, in favor of superstition. It allows for circular reasoning and keeps our thinking shallow. Faith plays to our internal confirmation biases and leads to our adopting other logical fallacies as well. It is so very easy to be duped, and we fool ourselves most easily.

---

simpleton wrote: ↑March 31st, 2019, 8:33 am But no, we completely reject that "hypothesis", it can't be, our "science" says otherwise. Trouble is, our corrupted "Science" absolutely does not take into consideration that there is a God and a devil. But, sorry to say, there is a God and a Devil, and both have their countless servants, and all are very actively engaged in influencing mankind for good and for evil.
But again, mankind is so full of pride, that we refuse to acknowledge either, especially in the world of science.

simpleton, this brings me to yet another great argument made in the letter. That is to drop the religious myth elements from the religion.

The LDS Church could easily drop the religious myth elements of the organization with a single announcement, and transition itself into a world-class global charity organization that takes in donations and deploys service volunteers on a grand scale. Some ward buildings could be transformed into group homes for handicapped or elderly, shelters for emergencies or the homeless, supply centers for charity, or even recreation centers. The LDS Church would be well positioned to capitalize on its effective

12

leadership infrastructure to benefit all of humanity as a global charity organization by simply acknowledging the fraud of its origins, and purging all the religious elements from the business it has already become, clinging only to the highest ethics and secular human morality.

I believe that much of the current membership would accept the idea in time, and even welcome it, in light of the daily revelations which leave believing members increasingly confused, frustrated, and distressed.

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 4:17 am**

...
This brings me to another argument that the Apostle made in his letter that I really like. That is to research for yourself! Here's a great quote from the letter regarding this.
...

But an apostle didn't write the letter, obviously. Some gay activist did. Such flagrant dishonesty only increases people's sense that your cause is completely wrong.

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 4:30 am**

Some one who steals does the Lord say it's okay he was born a thief, some one who commits adultery does the Lord say that's okay he was born an adulterer, some one who murders does the Lord say that's okay he was born a murderer, some one who lies does the Lord say that's okay he was born a liar, some one who engages in sex with the same gender does the Lord say that's okay he was born that way. NO HE DOES NOT, THAT IS WHAT SATAN SAYS. No one comes into this world from the Heavens with any of these things attached to them.

All of the above are still God's children and I treat them as that, but I will never treat the sin of any of them as a normal act. Our Heavenly Father does not and he has given us Commandments and Scripture to let us know His law and will.

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 5:31 am**

Chip wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 4:17 am
...
This brings me to another argument that the Apostle made in his letter that I really like. That is to research for yourself! Here's a great quote from the letter regarding this.
...
But an apostle didn't write the letter, obviously. Some gay activist did. Such flagrant dishonesty only increases people's sense that your cause is completely wrong.

Naw, such concise logic only increases people's common sense and reasoning abilities to see the incredible amount of homophobia, hyperjudgementel, and unchrist like mentality that appears to be quite prevalent here. I'm both shocked, and disappointed at the militant hostility that I'm getting in response for trying to discuss arguments made in a letter. I invite anyone who'd like to engage in a serious discussion and not attacking.

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 6:08 am**

Toast wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 5:31 am
Chip wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 4:17 am
...
This brings me to another argument that the Apostle made in his letter that I really like. That is to research for yourself! Here's a great quote from the letter regarding this.
...
But an apostle didn't write the letter, obviously. Some gay activist did. Such flagrant dishonesty only increases people's sense that your cause is completely wrong.
Naw, such concise logic only increases people's common sense and reasoning abilities to see the incredible amount of homophobia, hyperjudgementel, and unchrist like mentality that appears to be quite prevalent here. I'm both shocked, and disappointed at the militant hostility that I'm getting in response for trying to discuss arguments made in a letter. I invite anyone who'd like to engage in a serious discussion and not attacking.

You know you are lying. So does everyone here. Shocked, you are? More lying. I also think you are lying about being a woman. You are man. Admit it. A real woman wouldn't be taking your stance here, unless maybe she was a lesbian, fighting the same demons you are. I think you are a man in spiritual bondage to a filthy habit. It's so obvious. The thing is, you are fragile in this state, despite your bravado. The adversary has you right where he wants you, where he'd put any of us. You might as well fast-forward now by either dropping your Christian pretense and coming out in open rebellion against God, or work through this, relying on Jesus Christ's power to reform and save you. Your game-playing isn't fooling anyone here.

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 6:41 am**

Toast wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 5:31 am
Chip wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 4:17 am
...
This brings me to another argument that the Apostle made in his letter that I really like. That is to research for yourself! Here's a great quote from the letter regarding this.
...
But an apostle didn't write the letter, obviously. Some gay activist did. Such flagrant dishonesty only increases people's sense that your cause is completely wrong.
Naw, such concise logic only increases people's common sense and reasoning abilities to see the incredible amount of homophobia, hyperjudgementel, and unchrist like mentality that appears to be quite prevalent here. I'm both shocked, and disappointed at the militant hostility that I'm getting in response for trying to discuss arguments made in a letter. I invite anyone who'd like to engage in a serious discussion and not attacking.

You don't really want a serious discussion. You want to convert others to your opinion that all sex is perfectly fine with Jesus, no marriage needed, homosexuality is wonderful, and Jesus is happy about all of it. You want Mormons to throw out the law of chastity. Where's the discussion? As soon as someone expresses a deeply-held belief in the traditional religious view of chastity and fidelity, and the sin of homosexuality, you start calling names -- homophobe, hyperjudgemental, and unChristlike.

Have you tried Mormons Building Bridges Facebook group? They don't allow dissenting beliefs over there. They are building a one-way bridge.

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 7:37 am**

In all honesty, I don't believe Jesus hates homosexuals at all, or that he believes it's a sin. He may be bi or homosexual himself! Who knows?

Just getting better and better Toast. One wonders what great insights you have in store for all us ignorant Mormons next.

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 7:48 am**

Toast wrote: ↑March 31st, 2019, 12:58 am
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑March 30th, 2019, 10:12 pm God does NOT make people homosexual. That is one of Satan's biggest lies.
Here is a quote about LGBT issues from Bill Reel's letter to the brethren that can be found here: https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp- ... xZuS1zNCps

He really nails the issue!

#1 - The LGBT issue.
This is the precipice issue of our day. The world will continue to become more and more accepting as the science becomes more and more certain and the information more and more known that this is a biological issue. This is not about sexual behavior, this is about someone’s identity. I sense that you are all aware of the science even if you wish to be seen as naïveto it. To place so much trust in the old Testament as literal stories that clearly define God’s standards gets messy and doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Restoration scripture says little to nothing of homosexuality. Who are the celestial people in the lower two glories of the celestial kingdom? Why do we teach that a post mortal man and woman sealed are who god gives creative power when two premortal men (Michael and Jehovah) are our only doctrinal example of who creates?

Play a hypothetical with me. Had the 78’ revelation not occurred, who would join a church in 2016 that didn’t allow people of color to enjoy full fellowship? The LGBT issue is on the same trajectory. Now ask yourselves, if you make the change 30 years from now, imagine the theological awareness all members will have about just how wrong prophets can be, and so out of touch with Jesus that they entrenched on an issue that caused kids to take their lives. Black folks pre 78' at least had acceptance within the walls of their own homes and their black family. Black folks were not taking their lives over the Priesthood ban. This is exponentially greater in terms of the reconciliation members will have to make. Every member will have to come face to face with just how fallible church leaders are... just how fallible you are. This shift will be so dramatic that they will either lose faith or have to make overwhelming adjustments to their beliefs, assumptions, and expectations... adjustments that will have them never trusting religious authorities again as their ultimate source of truth. Imagine learning that Jesus either didn’t think gay suicide was a big enough deal to talk to you guys about it or that you guys were so set in your ways that you weren’t wanting to hear him, that decades went by and you did nothing dramatic to stop it. Noone will be joining a homophobic church in 2060 in a developed country. I sense that you sense you are in a conundrum.

Solution
-Can I first suggest you take time to become informed on the science and if you already are, stop pretending you are not. If you are not aware then I suggest you stop dismissing it and take time to truly understand what homosexuality is and isn't. You do people great harm to assume you understand this issue when your predecessors assumed the same and taught egregiously false and harmful things about homosexuality and its causes.

– You have theological room if you are creative, make a clear deliberate shift as soon as possible and label it revelation. Show that Jesus cares about these kids and he has spoken. Yes the older generation will be made extremelyuncomfortable. Some will lose faith and leave... but if you do nothing people are already leaving and you are losing the younger generation as their world is to big to maintain exclusive attitudes about people different then us when the science and lived experience don't support you. They simply won't tolerate a homophobic church and homophobic leaders. They have too much access to information to be patient as you turn the ship slowly and they certainly won't tolerate of you not turning the ship at all.

-This issue will not rest and will grow worse until you can find a way to equally include gays in our theology. The longer you wait the more disruptive this will be to your authority and that of those who fill your shoes later. Make the change asap. The sooner you do so the more dramatic and faith promoting it will be seen generally. This abruptshift will be seen much more as revelation and faith promoting than a long drawn out shift that has the younger generation completely checked out by the time it occurs, dismayed at how many lives you allowed to be sacrificed in the name of your stubbornness and entrenchment.

Toast if homosexuality is biological then how come people leave the practice all the time? I personally know two people that have gone straight after years in the lifestyle. The gay mafia triangulates any voice that dares to go straight because that would destroy the biological narrative.

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 10:17 am**

Toast wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 5:31 amNaw, such concise logic only increases people's common sense and reasoning abilities to see the incredible amount of homophobia, hyperjudgementel, and unchrist like mentality that appears to be quite prevalent here. I'm both shocked, and disappointed at the militant hostility that I'm getting in response for trying to discuss arguments made in a letter. I invite anyone who'd like to engage in a serious discussion and not attacking.

Yet you are the one who came here, with your blasphemy, promoting an unholy, abominable agenda, and a hoax letter claiming to be from a Mormon Apostle.

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 12:11 pm**

B. wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 10:17 am
Toast wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 5:31 amNaw, such concise logic only increases people's common sense and reasoning abilities to see the incredible amount of homophobia, hyperjudgementel, and unchrist like mentality that appears to be quite prevalent here. I'm both shocked, and disappointed at the militant hostility that I'm getting in response for trying to discuss arguments made in a letter. I invite anyone who'd like to engage in a serious discussion and not attacking.
Yet you are the one who came here, with your blasphemy, promoting an unholy, abominable agenda, and a hoax letter claiming to be from a Mormon Apostle.

I simply came on the forum with a sincere query to get the thoughts of people who like to discuss various mormon topics. That is what I heard about this forum. I silently observed the responses hoping to learn something. Instead, responses began to indict me, accuse me, insult me, call me into repentance, and talk about a part of the letter I posted that I never wanted to hear about. I came with no agenda whatsoever. It's as though the anti-gay piranhas came out to rip this letter as though it was exclusively pro-gay or something. The letter to me seems to be pro-a lot of other things of greater importance. The agenda you accuse me of seems to be an agenda of a small handful of highly passionate verbal abusers who drove this in the wrong direction. In attempting to defend myself and redirect, I merely shared my own insights which I feel were warranted in my own defense - measured in accordance with the personal attacks. If you look back thru the thread, painful as that is for anyone, I think you will see, I have tried to redirect the discourse to other aspects of the letter many times.

I think some respondents on here picked an easy way to try and discredit the authenticity of the letter by attacking me. I was just the messenger on this forum relaying what I saw on another forum. I came in peace, and feel spanked like when I was a child. Perhaps I am just a disillusioned latter-day saint trying to swim through the world of ideas looking for solid ground. I am a person who loves all people, fully aware that everyone has different life experiences and opinions to offer.

I would love nothing more than to reset this thread back to the original topic staying well clear of the one we already covered. Let me try again.

Some have said there is no way an Apostle would have written this. Yes, that would be highly unusual, I would grant, but it seems plausible to me that it would be very hard for someone at that level would have an inner struggle for quite some time, before being able to conclusively make such a move. On other forums, people point to it as a fake due to typos, grammar errors, etc. I'm guessing he couldn't have used the aide of his normal speech writers or proofreaders. Obviously, if he just came out with it, as he says himself toward the end, he would be made a pariah and the people he wants to hear his message would not ever get that chance, as it would be brushed off by the church. Someone with the high level, the ultimate level, of missionary zeal wouldn't so quickly walk away and hide under a rock if he really felt the church was founded on fraudulent origins.

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 12:23 pm**

Toast wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 12:11 pm

I simply came on the forum with a sincere query...

Don't take us for fools.

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 12:57 pm**

Toast wrote: ↑March 28th, 2019, 11:47 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: ↑March 28th, 2019, 11:24 pm First of all, I believe this to be a total fabrication. Why? Because it is just a repackaging of tired anti-Mormon talking points. Even if it turns out to be a true statement, who cares? Nobody is infallible. We've had general authorities go apostate and fight against the church before. Yawn!

Second, I take umbrage with this argument, regardless of who utters it:

"Is God, as the creator, actually relegating those who claim to be gay--since birth--to a life of complete celibacy? If “man is that he might have joy,” then where is the joy of man to be found for such individuals? Did God make them this way? What do science and biology have to say about this issue?"

How pathetic of mind and reason do you have to be to fail to grasp the fact that we were ALL born with traits that, if left unchecked, will keep us out of God's kingdom? Why should gay people get a pass on immorality when the adulterers, polygamists, exhibitionists, pornographers, fornicators, and swingers do not? How does one take the phrase "man is that he might have joy," and arrive at the conclusion that joy is synonymous with sex? If the only joy one can find in life is in their pants, life must be pretty empty and meaningless. Christ didn't tell people to "get it on." He told us to take up our crosses and deny ourselves of all ungodliness. That includes gay people.
Wow, I'm absolutely blown away.. People like you unwittingly influence gay youth to commit suicide. You disgust me.

This was your first response to a forum member who differed with your view on homosexuality. YOU accused him of influencing gay youth to commit suicide, and you said he DISGUSTED you.

You really must think we are fools.

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 12:59 pm**

Toast, you're wanting to talk about how this could have been written, what circumstances might have lead to some apostle writing it. Most people here have read it for its substance or 'fruit' and are saying this doesn't look or sound like something an apostle would have written -it was done by someone with an agenda. The agenda can be gleaned from the arguments made after all the build up and fluff in the beginning. It covers all of the common anti-LDS criticism cannon fodder and surrounds it with soothing GA-like verbosity and builds it all up to statements like these:

"I have come to the conclusion that prayer… is a sham"
...
"With all the sincerity and humility I can muster, let me reveal it to you now. I have learned unequivocally, that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is not true!"
...
"The revelations found in the Mormon scripture, the Doctrine and Covenants, are not true. "
...
"But faith does not give us the answers, necessarily; it merely prevents us from asking questions. Faith gives us the ability to suspend reason and ignore evidence, in favor of superstition."
...
"Is God, as the creator, actually relegating those who claim to be gay--since birth--to a life of complete celibacy? "
...
" I can honestly say that I have gone behind the curtain and I have seen strings. I am an insider. "
...
"The jig is up, my Brothers and Sisters."

None of the letter matches the writing style or fits with the logical thinking strategy of any apostle I can tell. I'd venture to guess that you probably wrote this with some help.

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 1:08 pm**

B. wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 10:17 am
Toast wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 5:31 amNaw, such concise logic only increases people's common sense and reasoning abilities to see the incredible amount of homophobia, hyperjudgementel, and unchrist like mentality that appears to be quite prevalent here. I'm both shocked, and disappointed at the militant hostility that I'm getting in response for trying to discuss arguments made in a letter. I invite anyone who'd like to engage in a serious discussion and not attacking.
Yet you are the one who came here, with your blasphemy, promoting an unholy, abominable agenda, and a hoax letter claiming to be from a Mormon Apostle.

Before I say anything else, Maybe you should add a downvote button, I'm SURE this post would get many.

To be fair, I don't think he came here with the intent to talk about and promote homosexuality. One of the early posts in the thread pointed out the portion of the "Apostles Letter" that talked about homosexuality and celibacy and it happens to be a topic that @Toast is apparently passionate about(and practicing?) and responded to that post.(In other words, he did not bring up the topic, someone else did) As he is an apparently practicing homosexual, it's obviously a touchy subject. I'm not sure if you guys are oblivious or sheltered, but there are many depressed people who commit suicide or want to simply because of peoples response to their sexuality. Everybody sins, you don't ostracize others who fornicate in heterosexual relationships, but don't care if a homosexual is suicidal because of how you treat him?

Although it seems he is willfully ignorant about what the Bible and Book of Mormon teach about Chastity , I think the response has been a tad bit overzealous here.

Unless you believe Toast is the originator of that hoax letter then idk what to say

I think were the responses here slightly different( and if they decided to resist the urge to call him to repentance for homosexuality, because people always listen to raging anonymous posters right?) this guy might have left this forum with a slightly better perception about LDS people(even if he never decides to adjust his views on chastity). Unfortunately, like many of my friends and family, this thread has only confirmed to him what r/exmormon and non-mormons in Utah say about Mormons all the time. I honestly believe you can be every bit against Homosexuality as you are now(as you should be, like any other sin) and react differently to people who practice and support it. You don't need to invite them to speak at church and take them on cruises for heaven sake, but cmon.

Homosexual relationships are sinful, but if you yourself are guilty of only the "small sin" of being slothful but have never truly been sanctified/spiritually begotten/Born of God, are you TRULY in a better place before God than the homosexual's you are stoning? Are you really? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.....

You don't need to hate them, you also don't need to join facebook groups to support their lifestyle and let them speak in church and tell them their relationship isn't a sin. Find something less extreme maybe? Black and White thinking ruins so many things. Find a reasonable way to express your dissaproval of homosexuality instead of calling them "Flaming homosexuals".

Also before someone jumps in to accuse me of being influenced by Hollywood and social media .. No, I'm not a feminist, I can't stand Social Justice, I hardly post and browse social media. I have no problem with politically incorrect statements and jokes. I am not pro gay marriage, I am not pro homosexuality, it is a sin. I’m very uncofrmtable around lgbtq people and it’s hard not to be judgemental. I don’t know fully where the line should be drawn

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 1:26 pm**

Fake News.
Undoubtedly fishing for website traffic, and potentially shares/backlinks, which in turn give the site/page better rank for relevant search terms.
President Ballard would probably give us all many ears full of commentary on this fake story, as he has done before for similar things.
That said, it isn't impossible that something like this could happen when the First Presidency takes a controversial direction not supported by other apostles. We need to remember that senior leaders in the past have turned on the church and its leadership, even publicly denouncing it. It's very rare, and I don't know of an apostle who has done so in my own lifetime. That said, based on the quotes I've read from the "letter" (I'm not going to the webpage, as I don't want to be even one more visitor that helps boost its rank), this doesn't read like anything any current apostle would write, unless its one of the newer ones I don't know well enough yet.
So, my opinion is it's 100% pure grain fake news.

EDIT/ADDITION:
For a rumor to be believable, it needs to be based on a shred of truth.
I find two shreds that make this even a remote possibility that it's legit (it's not):
First, same-sex marriage is extremely controversial and tugs on the emotions, because many church members know someone who suffers from depression or has committed suicide due to mental health issues stemming from isolation related to same-sex attraction. This controversy and experience creates cognitive dissonance, especially when you have popular members of our church, like Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons, telling everyone that fornication is beautiful and gay sex is a-okay, and then you have the church partnering with him in various ways (donating money to organizations, for example). That cognitive dissonance hurts, and the pain creates room for the rumor to be remotely believable, unless people just block it out.
Second, one of the current apostles has an immediate family member who is openly gay (I don't know if he's currently living as a gay man right now or not, but he is openly attracted to men).
Those two things, from my perspective, create one necessary ingredient for revelation: a desire to ask the question in the first place. Revelation comes from questions. If the brethren never asked about gay marriage, they probably wouldn't ever get any new answers. People stirring controversy see the pattern of questions and answers and are trying to get the brethren to ask the questions, because they feel certain that they are right and that God is a-okay with gay sex. They're dead wrong, but that's beside the point. It's already canonized, folks. Same-sex sex is an abomination in the eyes of God, just like other sins many of us have been guilty of in the past. That said, I do think God has a lot to tell us about how to treat same-sex attracted people and to not treat them like cockroaches, but like other people worthy of that basic dignity afforded to mankind.

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 1:31 pm**

Toast says she came on here to discuss various Mormon topics. There are 100's of threads with almost that many topics that she can participate in, and yet her ONLY posts are in this thread, that she started, and all her posts are about the Church's and members' stance and belief about the law of chastity. She is the one who has called the religious traditionalists names like homophobes, unChristlike, hyperjudgemental, and has said that the poster who called homosexuality a sin disgusts her, and causes youth suicide.

Sorry, Stahura, there is no middle ground with the pro-gay-agenda people. If you don't agree with them that gay people and gay sex is perfect in God's eyes, they will flame you, no matter how nice you try to be.

They want the CHURCH to change to their point of view. Nothing less.

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 1:48 pm**

Toast wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 12:11 pm
B. wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 10:17 am
Toast wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 5:31 amNaw, such concise logic only increases people's common sense and reasoning abilities to see the incredible amount of homophobia, hyperjudgementel, and unchrist like mentality that appears to be quite prevalent here. I'm both shocked, and disappointed at the militant hostility that I'm getting in response for trying to discuss arguments made in a letter. I invite anyone who'd like to engage in a serious discussion and not attacking.
Yet you are the one who came here, with your blasphemy, promoting an unholy, abominable agenda, and a hoax letter claiming to be from a Mormon Apostle.
I simply came on the forum with a sincere query to get the thoughts of people who like to discuss various mormon topics.... I think you will see, I have tried to redirect the discourse to other aspects of the letter many times....I would love nothing more than to reset this thread back to the original topic staying well clear of the one we already covered.

Yet you had to go into explaining your passionate love making with an unwed significant other AND the how's of gay sex (which I and many others found totally disgusting) By the way HOW do you so much about this? I believe you are trying to pull the wool over our eyes and that you are truly a male.

AGREED with the last comment of resetting the OP.

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 2:03 pm**

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 1:31 pm Toast says she came on here to discuss various Mormon topics. There are 100's of threads with almost that many topics that she can participate in, and yet her ONLY posts are in this thread, that she started, and all her posts are about the Church's and members' stance and belief about the law of chastity. She is the one who has called the religious traditionalists names like homophobes, unChristlike, hyperjudgemental, and has said that the poster who called homosexuality a sin disgusts her, and causes youth suicide.

Sorry, Stahura, there is no middle ground with the pro-gay-agenda people. If you don't agree with them that gay people and gay sex is perfect in God's eyes, they will flame you, no matter how nice you try to be.

They want the CHURCH to change to their point of view. Nothing less.

In a post where I said Homosexuality is a sin, Toast “liked” it. No flame.

That’s okay Lizzy, we don’t need to agree. God bless you!

I think if we want individuals to change their views on things like this we need to play the “long game” and find a better way to go about it, In a way that shows that we are a charitable loving people, because this thread shows the opposite .

Posted: **April 1st, 2019, 4:08 pm**

I think for petulant gay men with itchy prostates, there is no long game.

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