LDS Freedom Forum

I know there are many in this forum that are great scriptorians. I would like to pose a question for discussion and would appreciate the citation of scriptures for your views.

Are the kingdoms of glory physically isolated and geographically distinct, or are they comingled.

I know that is a vague basic question but hope some might fine it interesting enough to get a discussion started.

So a further question to set context.

Let's say you and your spouse are sealed, have children and you and spouse and all but one child go to the celestial kingdom while the remaining child goes to the telestial kingdom. Are you happy, as heaven should be, in the celestial kingdom without that child? How could you be? How could that be heaven?

A physically isolated paradigm has this paradox. But what if we are not physically isolated but are comingled? That solves the paradox, but can we rectify it with the scriptures?

justme wrote: ↑March 28th, 2019, 10:11 am I know there are many in this forum that are great scriptorians. I would like to pose a question for discussion and would appreciate the citation of scriptures for your views.

Are the kingdoms of glory physically isolated and geographically distinct, or are they comingled.

I know that is a vague basic question but hope some might fine it interesting enough to get a discussion started.

Are you a "linear" thinker or are you a "dimensional" one?



Please note that God was in the very presence of those who were souls, spirits and intelligences. Bear in mind that the Prophet Joseph Smith defined what a soul is:

Doctrine and Covenants 88:
15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.
16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.

Doctrine and Covenants 131:
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

The "Boundaries" ought to be thought of as "filters" and not "barriers." We are limited by our "perceptual" capabilities having to do with the small spectrum of the Electro-magnetic radiation band that are utilized by our "Telestial" body's sensors.

Doctrine and Covenants 131:
1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

Hence, co-mingled.

There are those who may have a tizzy over this, but . . . the other "heavens or degrees" are dimensional and are given the names "Telestial" and "Terrestrial."

Doctrine and Covenants 130:
8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.
9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.
10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

Mine own personal view is that only the one singular Celestial kingdom will exist where the saved go after resurrection and judgment. This is from a strict and literal reading of Revelations in the New Testament. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that God would both cleanse and save a soul but do it outside of his presence. The whole point of salvation is to be restored back to His presence.

Cheetos wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 7:13 am Mine own personal view is that only the one singular Celestial kingdom will exist where the saved go after resurrection and judgment. This is from a strict and literal reading of Revelations in the New Testament. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that God would both cleanse and save a soul but do it outside of his presence. The whole point of salvation is to be restored back to His presence.

Interesting. Now lets see if we can blend that together with the universalist teachings of DC 76. Or are you one of those with an elitist view where few are saved?

justme wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 7:35 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 7:13 am Mine own personal view is that only the one singular Celestial kingdom will exist where the saved go after resurrection and judgment. This is from a strict and literal reading of Revelations in the New Testament. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that God would both cleanse and save a soul but do it outside of his presence. The whole point of salvation is to be restored back to His presence.

Interesting. Now lets see if we can blend that together with the universalist teachings of DC 76. Or are you one of those with an elitist view where few are saved?

My belief is that section 76 is cryptic and the least understood doctrine in the church. The vision of the three kingdoms Joseph saw were not three separate world's but rather one distinct world, just seen at different points of progression. Even Joseph may not have understood this at the time he recorded it.

justme wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 7:35 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 7:13 am Mine own personal view is that only the one singular Celestial kingdom will exist where the saved go after resurrection and judgment. This is from a strict and literal reading of Revelations in the New Testament. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that God would both cleanse and save a soul but do it outside of his presence. The whole point of salvation is to be restored back to His presence.

Interesting. Now lets see if we can blend that together with the universalist teachings of DC 76. Or are you one of those with an elitist view where few are saved?

Just for perspective if one billion people make the celestial glory out of the 7.5 billion people on earth right now then that would mean only 13.3% of the people would go to the celestial glory. seems like a few is very fitting.

I have some really good stuff on section 76, that I am going to put up sometime this month on the forum. It doesn’t really necessarily relate directly to what has been asked on the thread here, maybe more vaguely, but it will really be I think very cool. Just one thought on what is being talked about here, one other thing that we do know is that the Holy Ghost will administer to the Telestial k., the Savior will administer in the Terrestrial, and the Father in the Celestial realms, which are described in the D&C as worlds without end. When you think about it, all of the kingdoms of glory will continue to be expanded as more and more spirit children of our Heavenly Father will be brought forth and added upon. The interesting bottom line question here which does relate to this thread very much is whether or not celestial beings will be able to walk among others and interact with friends and close relatives who might be in lower kingdoms without any issues. If that is the case, because all things are continually before God the Father, and he knows even went to sparrow falls to the earth, if after the final judgement, yet no unclean thing can dwell in His presence. Does that also mean that after the final judgment, that after those spirits who are no longer feeling the influence of Satan, and have been brought forth in the resurrection, are still not able to withstand his presence? Oh as the Prophet Joseph Smith said, if we could gaze into heaven for five minutes! You and I would know more about heaven than what has been written about it in all of the books that have ever been written on the subject. I will do more research and find out if I can track down any quotes relating to this subject anywhere in early Church history. One more mind blowing thought as I close, the earth will be celestialized to become part of the celestial kingdom for those who are born on this earth and receive celestial glory. Our heavenly father will glorify his creations to the highest possible state. God dwells in everlasting burnings. Wow!!!

I think maybe kingdoms of glory have to do more with "calling" more than physical location. You tend to spend more time with those you work/serve with. But even Satan was able to confront the heavenly council with regard to Job.

The highest position is to become a heavenly parent and to prepare spirits for their mortal probation/teaching mortality prep. (First lessons, bare the souls of men, eternal lives, etc ).

Not just anyone could teach mortality prep. Who could teach mortality prep but those few who learned the lessons of mortality:

1. Love God. Telestial.
2. Control the Body. Terrestrial
3. Submit to Gods priesthood authority. Celestial

If you never learn these lesson in this probation, there is no second chance, worlds without end.

There might not be a physical separation. Those of a higher kingdom can participate in all the activities/duties of a lower kingdom (eg design a shore line) but an individual in a lower kingdom could never perform the calling of a higher kingdom (eg mortality prep)

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 8:13 am I have some really good stuff on section 76, that I am going to put up sometime this month on the forum. It doesn’t really necessarily relate directly to what has been asked on the thread here, maybe more vaguely, but it will really be I think very cool. Just one thought on what is being talked about here, one other thing that we do know is that the Holy Ghost will administer to the Telestial k., the Savior will administer in the Terrestrial, and the Father in the Celestial realms, which are described in the D&C as worlds without end. When you think about it, all of the kingdoms of glory will continue to be expanded as more and more spirit children of our Heavenly Father will be brought forth and added upon. The interesting bottom line question here which does relate to this thread very much is whether or not celestial beings will be able to walk among others and interact with friends and close relatives who might be in lower kingdoms without any issues. If that is the case, because all things are continually before God the Father, and he knows even went to sparrow falls to the earth, if after the final judgement, yet no unclean thing can dwell in His presence. Does that also mean that after the final judgment, that after those spirits who are no longer feeling the influence of Satan, and have been brought forth in the resurrection, are still not able to withstand his presence? Oh as the Prophet Joseph Smith said, if we could gaze into heaven for five minutes! You and I would know more about heaven than what has been written about it in all of the books that have ever been written on the earth. I will do more research and find out if I can track down any quotes relating to this subject anywhere in early Church history.

The key here is becoming clean. Christ saves all except the son's of perdition. He does so by cleansing them from "all" sin. All the saved are spotless and as such can withstand his presence just as they did before coming to the earth.

justme wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 9:01 am The key here is becoming clean. Christ saves all except the son's of perdition. He does so by cleansing them from "all" sin. All the saved are spotless and as such can withstand his presence just as they did before coming to the earth.

This is a beautiful concise statement that wraps together so many of my growing thoughts on the plan of salvation. Thanks.

The plan as given in 76 is so beautiful, merciful and universal.

It is sad that we are so elitist in our views which seems to be directly opposite of the universal plan of the gospel.

justme wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 9:01 am

justme wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 9:01 am The key here is becoming clean. Christ saves all except the son's of perdition. He does so by cleansing them from "all" sin. All the saved are spotless and as such can withstand his presence just as they did before coming to the earth.

This is a beautiful concise statement that wraps together so many of my growing thoughts on the plan of salvation. Thanks.

The plan as given in 76 is so beautiful, merciful and universal.

It is sad that we are so elitist in our views which seems to be directly opposite of the universal plan of the gospel.

Except clearly not all will be saved in the manner you describe. Unless I am mistaken in what you are describing.
2 Nephi 28: 8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

Puts on Mod Hat

Can you guys please make sure that your quotes aren't broken before you post?

As a mod, I am willing to fix them when I notice it, but I will not be always able to spot it or determine whom you are quoting.

The preview button is very helpful for this.

John Tavner wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 10:00 am

justme wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 9:01 am

justme wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 9:01 am The key here is becoming clean. Christ saves all except the son's of perdition. He does so by cleansing them from "all" sin. All the saved are spotless and as such can withstand his presence just as they did before coming to the earth.

This is a beautiful concise statement that wraps together so many of my growing thoughts on the plan of salvation. Thanks.

The plan as given in 76 is so beautiful, merciful and universal.

It is sad that we are so elitist in our views which seems to be directly opposite of the universal plan of the gospel.

Except clearly not all will be saved in the manner you describe. Unless I am mistaken in what you are describing.
2 Nephi 28: 8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

All will be saved except for the sons of perdition. That is not my description that is the teaching in 76.
Now I understand that there is a difference between exaltation and salvation. But salvation is a gift and result of the Atonement and thus should not be belittled.

justme wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 10:12 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 10:00 am

justme wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 9:01 am

justme wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 9:01 am The key here is becoming clean. Christ saves all except the son's of perdition. He does so by cleansing them from "all" sin. All the saved are spotless and as such can withstand his presence just as they did before coming to the earth.

This is a beautiful concise statement that wraps together so many of my growing thoughts on the plan of salvation. Thanks.

The plan as given in 76 is so beautiful, merciful and universal.

It is sad that we are so elitist in our views which seems to be directly opposite of the universal plan of the gospel.

Except clearly not all will be saved in the manner you describe. Unless I am mistaken in what you are describing.
2 Nephi 28: 8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

All will be saved except for the sons of perdition. That is not my description that is the teaching in 76.
Now I understand that there is a difference between exaltation and salvation. But salvation is a gift and result of the Atonement and thus should not be belittled.

I suppose one needs to understand what your definition of saved means. These scriptures are clearly contradictory. Saved meaning at some point get the glory of their kingdom, yes. However it does not mean they will not suffer.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.
104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

John Tavner wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 10:23 am

justme wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 10:12 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 10:00 am

justme wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 9:01 am

This is a beautiful concise statement that wraps together so many of my growing thoughts on the plan of salvation. Thanks.

The plan as given in 76 is so beautiful, merciful and universal.

It is sad that we are so elitist in our views which seems to be directly opposite of the universal plan of the gospel.

Except clearly not all will be saved in the manner you describe. Unless I am mistaken in what you are describing.
2 Nephi 28: 8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

All will be saved except for the sons of perdition. That is not my description that is the teaching in 76.
Now I understand that there is a difference between exaltation and salvation. But salvation is a gift and result of the Atonement and thus should not be belittled.

I suppose one needs to understand what your definition of saved means. These scriptures are clearly contradictory. Saved meaning at some point get the glory of their kingdom, yes. However it does not mean they will not suffer.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.
104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

Exactly. The process may not be fun for those who do not repent. But Eventually they are saved through the atonement into a kingdom of glory that surpasses all understanding.

No man is saved in the end without repentance from "all" sin. Otherwise, how could they be saved?

justme wrote: ↑March 28th, 2019, 10:11 am I know there are many in this forum that are great scriptorians. I would like to pose a question for discussion and would appreciate the citation of scriptures for your views.

Are the kingdoms of glory physically isolated and geographically distinct, or are they comingled.

I know that is a vague basic question but hope some might fine it interesting enough to get a discussion started.

I suspect our galaxy has three zones of space. The telestial worlds in the outer rim (haha Star Wars,) and the Celestial worlds would be in the bright center where everything else revolves around them. The terrestrial worlds would be between the two. Abraham 3 is a good read on the size of stars and how light / glory passes between them - but they all receive their light from the source (center.) Anyway, overlaying a galactic map on this principle is me connecting the dots and not scriptural.



Perhaps the center of each arm is comprised of terrestrial worlds with the telestial worlds extend out towards the darker areas. Just a thought!

As far as they being comingled, I highly suspect that tribes and the symbol of each house sacrificing a lamb on passover indicates that tribes stay together and comingle with other tribes. Consider Abraham 3 where Abraham sees all the intelligences of this world yet only "many" of the noble and great ones were there. Where were the rest of them? Were they bound to other worlds?

Abraham 3:22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

Cheetos wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 12:49 pm No man is saved in the end without repentance from "all" sin. Otherwise, how could they be saved?

I like how you emphasize the word "all". That is the word that stands out to me in DC 76:44. He saves "all" except the sons of perdition.

justme wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 2:07 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 12:49 pm No man is saved in the end without repentance from "all" sin. Otherwise, how could they be saved?

I like how you emphasize the word "all". That is the word that stands out to me in DC 76:44. He saves "all" except the sons of perdition.

And what is most misunderstood is that he cleanses all those he saves from "all unrighteousness". So, if we thus apply the logic here, all those he saves are "all righteous". The extrapolation follows that if one is all righteous, then there is no reason they should dwell somewhere besides the very presence of God who also is all righteous.

davedan wrote: ↑March 29th, 2019, 8:24 am 1. Love God. Telestial.
2. Control the Body. Terrestrial
3. Submit to Gods priesthood authority. Celestial

How did you come up with this list?
I have been coming up with similar lists for years now (Celestial, Terrestial, Telestial, Outer Darkness) and they actually don't look anything like this, so it is kind of surprising.

I believe God's Celestial Kingdom is at the center of the galaxy, with the terrestrial further out, seperated by a veil of debris, dust, rocks, and the telestial - where were are now - is another layer out, behind yet another veil of debris. Outer darkness may have another veil beyond that. Take a look at an image of a galaxy, notice the different colors.

I recommend the Kolob Theorem.