Just what would you have the Church do?

[drtanner]

It is the church that administers ordinances, it is the church that builds temples, it is the church that is the primary organization to help gather Israel because of these things. What would I have the church do? What ever the leaders feel inspired will ensure it is able to fulfill its purposes and extend these blessings to the world.

What is my role? To be anxiously engaged helping the Lord with his work by being an active participant in bringing people to HIS church, and the fullness of HIS gospel.

Do I ever take issue with how the church chooses to do this? I have, but I have found venting concerns to people that have no power to do anything only exacerbates the issue. Start prayerfully with your bishop and stake president not the rest of the ward, your family and dare I say an online forum.

I would venture to say that 90% of the complainers, detractors, and antagonists have never done this. Having had experience with the ones that have I can tell you that most have there minds set on their own agenda and not willing to take anything other than there own opinion in consideration, but there have been beautiful moments where joined in fasting and prayer and the spirit of humility the will of the Lord is manifest or at a minimum the spirit of understanding occurs and the individual is restored to a place where they again can get engaged with the lord his work and the role of the church in that equation. There have also been moments where as a leader a new perspective was found and communicated through proper channels and I have seen change happen as a result.

Are we praying and fasting for those leading this church and who make decision on behalf of the expectation to represent the lord and approach them in a spirit of humility as our first step?

Can you imagine if everyone did this in the right spirit collectively? The mutual communication would be beyond valuable for everyone involved.

[innocentoldguy]

Hello again, Thinker,

It sounds like you have an ax to grind more than a legitimate point. Again, your commentary seems skewed and incomplete, so let me provide clarification.

"If this is the church of Mormon prophets, then, yes, let’s go by their words. But if this is the church of Jesus Christ - we need to go by his. The 2 greatest commandments “which hang (prioritize above) all the law and the prophets” are to love God and love others as ourselves. How do we love God? By loving “the least of these” - those in need."

You seem confused on this matter. In your estimation, it seems, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints isn't following the commandments of God because they own shopping centers (number three in your most recent comment). Of course, in order to make this claim, you have to ignore the 2,885 humanitarian projects in 141 countries the church participated in last year alone. You also have to ignore the BILLIONS of dollars the church has given in humanitarian aid to provide the poor with food, cash, health care, housing, etc. in 197 different countries and territories since 1985. You also have to ignore the many hours of service members of the church give each month all over the world to those in need. Finally, you have to ignore the fact that the church CAN care for humanity in this way and to this degree partly due to the financial investments they've made and the return on those investments. Of course, the truth doesn't fit your purpose though, so you must leave it out and hope nobody notices.

"The law of tithing came from OT times. Deuteronomy 14:22 & Deuteronomy 26:13 state tithing is based on increase."

And, your misinterpretation of the word "increase" to mean "what's left over after you've spent everything you need/want to" comes from where exactly?

The word "tithe" literally means "tenth" and The Bible makes that clear both, before and after Deuteronomy, that it is a tenth on everything you have. For example, Genesis 14:19-20 talks about Abram giving God a tenth of everything; not just what was left over after he met his financial obligations, but a tenth of "ALL." In Genesis 28:20-22, Jacob gives God a tenth of ALL God gives him. Leviticus 27:32, states that the tithe of the herd, the flock, and everything that passeth under the rod be one-tenth. Tithing is talked about and defined quite clearly throughout The Bible, and the law as defined in D&C is in harmony with those teachings. Of course, none of those other definitions of tithing allow you to misinterpret "increase" to mean what you want it to mean, so you ignore those and focus solely on the one sentence in The Bible that you think allows you to make your illegitimate point.

If you're truly concerned about the poor, what you should really be asking yourself is what you've done to help today. After all, Christ's command was for you to help the poor individually; not to run around the world spreading false information, faux indignation, and hypocritical shame.

[Durzan]

Puts on Mod Hat:

Hey guys... First things first, just a friendly reminder: if you are going to respond to someone, make sure to at least quote the relevant post(s) please. Its only polite/respectful, and it makes following a discussion easier.

Second, FYI... if the tangent discussion of church finances is going to become the de facto main topic of conversation in this thread to the point where it risks hijacking the entire discussion, then I would suggest starting a new thread on the subject and continuing the discussion there. Church Finances, like polygamy and a few other topics, is one of those topics that has been beaten to death and discussed into endless circles countlessly in other threads in the past, and as such it has a tendency to hijack the conversation. Not only that, some people on the forum do seem to have a certain obsession with the subject and/or some kind of axe to grind with it.

So long as it doesn't dominate the entire discussion or get too heated, its fine... but as soon as nothing else concerning the OP is being discussed as well, then I will consider splitting the topic. Needless to say, if things get too out of hand, I will also intervene.

Last note: If you have a bunch of pictures that are either somewhat graphic in nature or take up a lot of space, please do us a favor and spoiler them.

Takes off mod hat

[ori]

Regarding vaccines: the pro-vaccine statements attributed to the church are from, what, 1978? It seems the church has decided to refrain from pushing vaccines further. I think this is the right approach. The church also wisely decided to stay out of the evolution/creationism debate. Again, I believe this was the correct approach. However, when it comes to grave threats to freedom, I would like to see some statements made by the church regarding them. Example: if mandatory vaccinations to all adults and children comes up in a federal bill, I'd like to see the church make a statement against said bill, in defense of FREEDOM and PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Bad things always happen when we allow the gubmint to start taking these responsibilities upon themselves. That said, do NOT take these statements of mine as being statements against the church. Whatever the brethren (apostles/prophet) do/say while in positions of apostolic/prophetic authority, I will follow/listen. If they do not make a statement against mandatory vaccinations, I would not hold it against the Church. Or if they *do* make a statement FOR mandatory vaccinations, I will listen (I would be very, very surprised if they made a statement supporting mandatory vaccinations, but I would follow their advice).

gkearney said: "Should the Church enquire as to the political beliefs of its members? Should [The Church] expect that those beliefs align with some sort of publish church positions?". As political positions become more and more extreme, it would seem that the extreme positions would conflict with the truths of the gospel more and more. I don't think it's wise for the church to make any statements regarding political parties, but instead to make statements about gospel truths relevant to current political issues. While doing so, people with certain political positions will take offense. That's unavoidable. I think the Church has been very wise to not take positions on certain political parties, and instead to focus more on how gospel truths pertain to political issues. Example: Back in the 2000's, there was a proposed bill being taken to the Senate, IIRC, about enshrining marriage as between a man and a woman (as a way to block gay marriages). Perhaps it was in the House, or perhaps it was a proposed constitutional amendment; I do not recall the details. However, the church took a stand FOR the proposed legislation in favor of defining marriage as between a man and a woman, and I think the Church did the absolute right thing by making such a statement. The legislation didn't pass. This is the kind of statement by the church of which I am proud.

"Should the church explicitly state positions on issues like vaccinations, taxes, union membership, environmental regulations, climate change and so on? If so what should these official church stands be on these matters be?" No, the church should NOT explicitly state positions on all these issues. The church's purpose is the spiritual salvation of humankind. I think it is wise that the church has stayed out of these matters, in order to focus the members of the church on the pure gospel of Jesus Christ.

However, in the past didn't church leaders take more specific stands on certain issues such as, but not limited to:
* playing cards
* birth control
* vaccines
* R-rated movies
etc... ?

It seems the Church has a pattern of gradually making fewer and fewer specific statements. Perhaps this is because of our unwillingness to listen?
In any case, when and if the Church decides to take more specific positions on various positions, I will listen.

[I AM]

He's taking the church a big step away from the check boxes and towards building local communities where those communities and individuals can grow their relationship with the Spirit as they solve local and personal issues.

I agree. I think Christ, via President Nelson, is trying to get the church culture to go away. Less time at church, more time studying with family at home, more Temples for individual growth and revelation. He's changing the culture with changes in the Temple, and yet the endowment is still the same with the covenants and signs and token etc. (but even those can change and still be valid!). However, look at the people who want the church less involved in our lives and those who complain most about the church culture and you'll see that they complain about the direction the church is headed. A damned if they do, damned if they don't scenario. I don't put this on President Nelson either, I believe the Lord is moving His work forward at a new pace.

It's a wonderful time to be on earth

------------
Christ, via President Nelson ? right
wrong
the Lord IS moving His work forward at a new pace.
with the Times of the Gentiles being fulfilled, and the gospel being taken from us because of our apostasy,
and going back to the House of Israel.

"For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
1 Thessalonians 5:3

"And now cometh the day of their calamity, even the days of sorrow, like a woman that is taken in travail; and their sorrow shall be great unless they speedily repent, yea, very speedily."
D&C 136:35
------------------

The Second Book of Nephi
Chapter 28

Many false churches will be built up in the last days—They will teach false, vain, and foolish doctrines—Apostasy will abound because of false teachers—The devil will rage in the hearts of men—He will teach all manner of false doctrines. About 559–545 B.C.

1 And now, behold, my brethren, I have spoken unto you, according as the Spirit hath constrained me; wherefore, I know that they must surely come to pass.

2 And the things which shall be written out of the book shall be of great worth unto the children of men, and especially unto our seed, which is a remnant of the house of Israel.

3 For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord’s; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord’s; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord—

4 And they shall contend one with another; and their priests shall contend one with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance.

5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;

6 Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work.

7 Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.

8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!

16 Wo unto them that turn aside the just for a thing of naught and revile against that which is good, and say that it is of no worth! For the day shall come that the Lord God will speedily visit the inhabitants of the earth; and in that day that they are fully ripe in iniquity they shall perish.

17 But behold, if the inhabitants of the earth shall repent of their wickedness and abominations they shall not be destroyed, saith the Lord of Hosts.

18 But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof.

19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;

20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!

28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall.

29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

32 Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts! For notwithstanding I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God, if they will repent and come unto me; for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long, saith the Lord God of Hosts.

[BeNotDeceived]

OTEC

[thestock]

I'd like to see the church focus on how to develop the immortality and eternal life of man. Teach them wise skills that will enrich their lives. Teach them financial prudence. Teach them to uplift and support the Constitution. Teach them to love one another and to treat others as Jesus treated them. Emphasize the ten commandments are a baseline for righteous living, and that through the Spirit, each man and woman can learn the higher laws that God wants each of us to obey. Stop with the silliness about tea, coffee, alcohol etc. I dont mind if Church leaders share stories that highlight the harmfulness of substances etc.....but darnit, stop treating the members like school children that need a ruler slapped across their fingers when they dont sit still! Stop with telling people what to do in general. Christ already did that. Teach what Christ taught.

[Thinker]

It’d be nice if they obeyed Christ’s teachings.
You’d think those using Christ’s name would have more financial integrity.

“There must needs be opposition in all things” - including the church. I love the amazing sense of community and encouragement in being better people. There are 2 main harmful evils that have crept into the church. One is cult-mentality - like considering leaders infallible and looking more to them than to Christ. The other is how finances are handled.

Financial irresponsibility (which contribute to debt, bankruptcy, poverty and related suffering) is undeniable. Changing scripture from what it states (increase) to mean “income” to get more money, is not of Christ. The reason God commanded tithe be based on increase is shown in the following example:

• 2 men earn the exact same income amount.
  1 man is the sole provider of a family of 7 and after paying bills has no increase left.
  2nd man lives with his parents who pay all his bills, so all of his income is increase.
  Yet, the church demand$ the $ame amount from each man - thereby causing the 1st family to be poor. Christ was about alleviating poverty and suffering - not causing more.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (conveniently ignored in lds curriculums) states that tithing collectors are to give at least 1/3 of TITHES to those in need. Christ asked those who can, to give much more.

While we are often pressured and shamed into giving “honest tithes,” church leaders keep money dark and secret, though Oaks did admit no tithes go to the poor. Funds intended for the poor go to the corporate empire of mormon leaders and we have no clue or say in how it’s spent. We do know the church had some elaborate malls built, and a list of greedy wordly companies using the name of Jesus Christ in vain. Meanwhile, about 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are starving.

Grand ribon-cutting opening by for another mall (3 now) built using the name of Jesus Christ...

While I am not entirely unsympathetic with some of your points, I would take issue with a couple.

1. Our law of tithing is not based on Deuteronomy but on D&C 119. Frankly, the law of tithing amongst the Hebrews of the OT is irrelevant to us. Our law was given to us in this dispensation through our Prophet. D&C 119 is clear as to what tithing is to be used for, and providing for the poor is not on the list.

2. D&C 119 does not say "increase". It says "interest". Although similar, they are not the same thing.

3. I am only aware of one shopping mall - City Creek. You claim there are three. Where are the other two?

Your points are understandable.

1) If this is the church of Mormon prophets, then, yes, let’s go by their words. But if this is the church of Jesus Christ - we need to go by his. The 2 greatest commandments “which hang (prioritize above) all the law and the prophets” are to love God and love others as ourselves. How do we love God? By loving “the least of these” - those in need...

Spoiler

2) The law of tithing came from OT times. Deuteronomy 14:22 & Deuteronomy 26:13 state tithing is based on increase.

3) Besides many other businesses, the church owns the following shopping malls:
*La'ie Shopping Center (Hawaii)
*City Creek (Utah)
*AZ? I read that another was being built but now all I find online are separate church-owned businesses/stores in Arizona, so I’m not sure on this one.

Logically speaking why do you think the Church would build shopping centers? Where in these communities are these shopping centers located?

Logically, anyone using the name of Jesus Christ to make money would use it for Jesus Christ’s greatest commandments “which hang all the law and the prophets.”

[Thinker]

• 2 men earn the exact same income amount.
  1 man is the sole provider of a family of 7 and after paying bills has no increase left.
  2nd man lives with his parents who pay all his bills, so all of his income is increase.

Even if the church asked for less I would still give the same amount, maybe to some other cause. The belief and action of giving away a larger amount of my income has had a profound effect on my well-being and income. Knowing I don't need all my money has lead me to peace of mind and greater increase.

It’s Christ-like to want to share your gifts to benefit others.
Many are like children - like the widow not realizing she was giving money to corrupt religious leaders who would have Christ killed. Christ saw her heart - though naive, it was good.

I believe our universal purpose as children of God, is to learn to love better and better. Part of that is being wise stewards and being sure our gifts are most efficient according to Christ’s greatest commandments... loving God & others as ourselves. And how do we love God? “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these, ye have done it unto me.” Tithing belongs to God - those in need - as said in the OT (Deuteronomy 14:28-29) & implied by Christ.

[Thinker]

It’d be nice if they obeyed Christ’s teachings.
You’d think those using Christ’s name would have more financial integrity.

“There must needs be opposition in all things” - including the church. I love the amazing sense of community and encouragement in being better people. There are 2 main harmful evils that have crept into the church. One is cult-mentality - like considering leaders infallible and looking more to them than to Christ. The other is how finances are handled.

Financial irresponsibility (which contribute to debt, bankruptcy, poverty and related suffering) is undeniable. Changing scripture from what it states (increase) to mean “income” to get more money, is not of Christ. The reason God commanded tithe be based on increase is shown in the following example:

• 2 men earn the exact same income amount.
  1 man is the sole provider of a family of 7 and after paying bills has no increase left.
  2nd man lives with his parents who pay all his bills, so all of his income is increase.
  Yet, the church demand$ the $ame amount from each man - thereby causing the 1st family to be poor. Christ was about alleviating poverty and suffering - not causing more.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (conveniently ignored in lds curriculums) states that tithing collectors are to give at least 1/3 of TITHES to those in need. Christ asked those who can, to give much more.

While we are often pressured and shamed into giving “honest tithes,” church leaders keep money dark and secret, though Oaks did admit no tithes go to the poor. Funds intended for the poor go to the corporate empire of mormon leaders and we have no clue or say in how it’s spent. We do know the church had some elaborate malls built, and a list of greedy wordly companies using the name of Jesus Christ in vain. Meanwhile, about 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are starving.

Grand ribon-cutting opening by for another mall (3 now) built using the name of Jesus Christ...

While I am not entirely unsympathetic with some of your points, I would take issue with a couple.

1. Our law of tithing is not based on Deuteronomy but on D&C 119. Frankly, the law of tithing amongst the Hebrews of the OT is irrelevant to us. Our law was given to us in this dispensation through our Prophet. D&C 119 is clear as to what tithing is to be used for, and providing for the poor is not on the list.

2. D&C 119 does not say "increase". It says "interest". Although similar, they are not the same thing.

3. I am only aware of one shopping mall - City Creek. You claim there are three. Where are the other two?

Your points are understandable.

1) If this is the church of Mormon prophets, then, yes, let’s go by their words. But if this is the church of Jesus Christ - we need to go by his. The 2 greatest commandments “which hang (prioritize above) all the law and the prophets” are to love God and love others as ourselves. How do we love God? By loving “the least of these” - those in need...

Spoiler

2) The law of tithing came from OT times. Deuteronomy 14:22 & Deuteronomy 26:13 state tithing is based on increase.

3) Besides many other businesses, the church owns the following shopping malls:
*La'ie Shopping Center (Hawaii)
*City Creek (Utah)
*AZ? I read that another was being built but now all I find online are separate church-owned businesses/stores in Arizona, so I’m not sure on this one.

Now you're confusing me.
Are you saying D&C 119 isn't from Jesus Christ? If it is, your Deuteronomy argument is void. So, are you claiming Joseph Smith had a false revelation?

Also, your original comment clearly made it appear that the church has built 3 shopping malls... "Grand ribbon-cutting opening for another mall (now 3) built using the name of Jesus Christ..." when in fact it is one. Another is owned by the church, but not built by them as you state, and the claim of a third is based on a flimsy rumour.

Christ said that his greatest commandments come before all prophets including Joseph Smith. As much as I appreciate the good Joseph Smith did, I believe in Christ as being more worthy of following.

As explained, the City Creek shopping mall is not the only one owned by the church - one in Hawaii & one in Arizona possibly (as I explained, I’m not sure about this AZ one).

[Thinker]

Innocentoldguy,
Church leaders keep money secret so you have no proof of exactly how much the church has nor what percentage of that is given to those in need - and counting only the poor from whom tithes are not expected.

When did Christ own business be bought using sacred funds?
Christ actually only expressed anger once - when people were using the temple to make money. What do you now need to be “worthy” to enter lds temple$? Temple entrance fee: 10% of your income - be a full-tithe payer. I imagine Christ would be braiding a whip again if he saw how his name was being used in vain and how temples were used to manipulate people financially and socially.

Not until I read the bible cover-to-cover did I realize a scripture I’d never heard of, even after being raised in the lds church. If you search paper lds bible indexes and dictionaries or lds curriculum under “tithing” you’ll never find Deuteronomy 14:28-29. Maybe because it tells that tithing COLLECTOR$ are supposed to give 1/3 of TITHES to those in need, & although sacred funds are kept secret, Oaks admitted not a penny of tithes goes to those in need.

You’ve tried to shoot the messenger because the message is irrefutable. You try to make this about me - in your first sentence as well as in your last 2 sentences. (The only rule on this forum is no ad hominem attacks.) If I were collecting tithes, I would be accountable for them, but I am not. This thread is not about me, but about what we’d like to see improve in the church. I’d like the church to obey Christ financially, by sharing at least (lower law) 1/3 of TITHES with those in need - without demanding money from the poor who have no increase.

[setyourselffree]

Innocentoldguy,
Church leaders keep money secret so you have no proof of exactly how much the church has nor what percentage of that is given to those in need - and counting only the poor from whom tithes are not expected.

When did Christ own business be bought using sacred funds?
Christ actually only expressed anger once - when people were using the temple to make money. What do you now need to be “worthy” to enter lds temple$? Temple entrance fee: 10% of your income - be a full-tithe payer. I imagine Christ would be braiding a whip again if he saw how his name was being used in vain and how temples were used to manipulate people financially and socially.

Not until I read the bible cover-to-cover did I realize a scripture I’d never heard of, even after being raised in the lds church. If you search paper lds bible indexes and dictionaries or lds curriculum under “tithing” you’ll never find Deuteronomy 14:28-29. Maybe because it tells that tithing COLLECTOR$ are supposed to give 1/3 of TITHES to those in need, & although sacred funds are kept secret, Oaks admitted not a penny of tithes goes to those in need.

You’ve tried to shoot the messenger because the message is irrefutable. You try to make this about me - in your first sentence as well as in your last 2 sentences. (The only rule on this forum is no ad hominem attacks.) If I were collecting tithes, I would be accountable for them, but I am not. This thread is not about me, but about what we’d like to see improve in the church. I’d like the church to obey Christ financially, by sharing at least (lower law) 1/3 of TITHES with those in need - without demanding money from the poor who have no increase.

How do you know Christ never owned a business? How do you know the early church never bought a business?

[Robin Hood]

While I am not entirely unsympathetic with some of your points, I would take issue with a couple.

1. Our law of tithing is not based on Deuteronomy but on D&C 119. Frankly, the law of tithing amongst the Hebrews of the OT is irrelevant to us. Our law was given to us in this dispensation through our Prophet. D&C 119 is clear as to what tithing is to be used for, and providing for the poor is not on the list.

2. D&C 119 does not say "increase". It says "interest". Although similar, they are not the same thing.

3. I am only aware of one shopping mall - City Creek. You claim there are three. Where are the other two?

Your points are understandable.

1) If this is the church of Mormon prophets, then, yes, let’s go by their words. But if this is the church of Jesus Christ - we need to go by his. The 2 greatest commandments “which hang (prioritize above) all the law and the prophets” are to love God and love others as ourselves. How do we love God? By loving “the least of these” - those in need...

Spoiler

2) The law of tithing came from OT times. Deuteronomy 14:22 & Deuteronomy 26:13 state tithing is based on increase.

3) Besides many other businesses, the church owns the following shopping malls:
*La'ie Shopping Center (Hawaii)
*City Creek (Utah)
*AZ? I read that another was being built but now all I find online are separate church-owned businesses/stores in Arizona, so I’m not sure on this one.

Now you're confusing me.
Are you saying D&C 119 isn't from Jesus Christ? If it is, your Deuteronomy argument is void. So, are you claiming Joseph Smith had a false revelation?

Also, your original comment clearly made it appear that the church has built 3 shopping malls... "Grand ribbon-cutting opening for another mall (now 3) built using the name of Jesus Christ..." when in fact it is one. Another is owned by the church, but not built by them as you state, and the claim of a third is based on a flimsy rumour.

Christ said that his greatest commandments come before all prophets including Joseph Smith. As much as I appreciate the good Joseph Smith did, I believe in Christ as being more worthy of following.

As explained, the City Creek shopping mall is not the only one owned by the church - one in Hawaii & one in Arizona possibly (as I explained, I’m not sure about this AZ one).

Poor answer; clearly not thought through.
You disappoint me.

Christ did indeed tell us to love God and our neighbour. The church owning real estate does not stop you doing that. Or are you one of those leftie types who thinks throwing money at everything is the answer.

[harakim]

I would have liked it if the church would start providing an environment for people to really learn to follow the gospel, not repeat how much they need your money and here are ten tiny things (gnats) that you can strain at when that is really not what the world needs.

I don't actually care if they do this anymore. I have moved on from needing the church to do anything at all.

[Thinker]

Innocentoldguy,
Church leaders keep money secret so you have no proof of exactly how much the church has nor what percentage of that is given to those in need - and counting only the poor from whom tithes are not expected.

When did Christ own business be bought using sacred funds?
Christ actually only expressed anger once - when people were using the temple to make money. What do you now need to be “worthy” to enter lds temple$? Temple entrance fee: 10% of your income - be a full-tithe payer. I imagine Christ would be braiding a whip again if he saw how his name was being used in vain and how temples were used to manipulate people financially and socially.

Not until I read the bible cover-to-cover did I realize a scripture I’d never heard of, even after being raised in the lds church. If you search paper lds bible indexes and dictionaries or lds curriculum under “tithing” you’ll never find Deuteronomy 14:28-29. Maybe because it tells that tithing COLLECTOR$ are supposed to give 1/3 of TITHES to those in need, & although sacred funds are kept secret, Oaks admitted not a penny of tithes goes to those in need.

You’ve tried to shoot the messenger because the message is irrefutable. You try to make this about me - in your first sentence as well as in your last 2 sentences. (The only rule on this forum is no ad hominem attacks.) If I were collecting tithes, I would be accountable for them, but I am not. This thread is not about me, but about what we’d like to see improve in the church. I’d like the church to obey Christ financially, by sharing at least (lower law) 1/3 of TITHES with those in need - without demanding money from the poor who have no increase.

How do you know Christ never owned a business? How do you know the early church never bought a business?

The same way I believe Jesus never used he temple to make money - it’s not written, nor is it in alliance with what he taught & did.

[Thinker]

Your points are understandable.

1) If this is the church of Mormon prophets, then, yes, let’s go by their words. But if this is the church of Jesus Christ - we need to go by his. The 2 greatest commandments “which hang (prioritize above) all the law and the prophets” are to love God and love others as ourselves. How do we love God? By loving “the least of these” - those in need...

Spoiler

2) The law of tithing came from OT times. Deuteronomy 14:22 & Deuteronomy 26:13 state tithing is based on increase.

3) Besides many other businesses, the church owns the following shopping malls:
*La'ie Shopping Center (Hawaii)
*City Creek (Utah)
*AZ? I read that another was being built but now all I find online are separate church-owned businesses/stores in Arizona, so I’m not sure on this one.

Now you're confusing me.
Are you saying D&C 119 isn't from Jesus Christ? If it is, your Deuteronomy argument is void. So, are you claiming Joseph Smith had a false revelation?

Also, your original comment clearly made it appear that the church has built 3 shopping malls... "Grand ribbon-cutting opening for another mall (now 3) built using the name of Jesus Christ..." when in fact it is one. Another is owned by the church, but not built by them as you state, and the claim of a third is based on a flimsy rumour.

Christ said that his greatest commandments come before all prophets including Joseph Smith. As much as I appreciate the good Joseph Smith did, I believe in Christ as being more worthy of following.

As explained, the City Creek shopping mall is not the only one owned by the church - one in Hawaii & one in Arizona possibly (as I explained, I’m not sure about this AZ one).

Poor answer; clearly not thought through.
You disappoint me.

Christ did indeed tell us to love God and our neighbour. The church owning real estate does not stop you doing that. Or are you one of those leftie types who thinks throwing money at everything is the answer.

Speaking of...

The church associated with establishing mafia and casinos in Las Vegas also doesn’t affect me from loving others. Obviously. This isn’t about me. This is about how the church could be better - more Christ-like.

• Church leaders should be honest and open and used sacred funds gathered in the name of JESUS CHRIST, as Christ taught... Not throwing money at the poor, but wisely researching effective ways to help the poor - like building self-sufficiency. Tithes are meant for God, and Christ taught that as we care for those in need, we care for God.

Before, I naively gave my tithes to the church who hid them secretly but admitted to not sharing them with the poor. Now, I know better and give my tithes for those in need in financially transparent ways. God looks on our hearts but if we truly worship God, our hearts are more and more willing to do God’s will above mens’ and we love better and better.

[Robin Hood]

Now you're confusing me.
Are you saying D&C 119 isn't from Jesus Christ? If it is, your Deuteronomy argument is void. So, are you claiming Joseph Smith had a false revelation?

Also, your original comment clearly made it appear that the church has built 3 shopping malls... "Grand ribbon-cutting opening for another mall (now 3) built using the name of Jesus Christ..." when in fact it is one. Another is owned by the church, but not built by them as you state, and the claim of a third is based on a flimsy rumour.

Christ said that his greatest commandments come before all prophets including Joseph Smith. As much as I appreciate the good Joseph Smith did, I believe in Christ as being more worthy of following.

As explained, the City Creek shopping mall is not the only one owned by the church - one in Hawaii & one in Arizona possibly (as I explained, I’m not sure about this AZ one).

Poor answer; clearly not thought through.
You disappoint me.

Christ did indeed tell us to love God and our neighbour. The church owning real estate does not stop you doing that. Or are you one of those leftie types who thinks throwing money at everything is the answer.

Speaking of...

The church associated with establishing mafia and casinos in Las Vegas also doesn’t affect me from loving others. Obviously. This isn’t about me. This is about how the church could be better - more Christ-like.

• Church leaders should be honest and open and used sacred funds gathered in the name of JESUS CHRIST, as Christ taught... Not throwing money at the poor, but wisely researching effective ways to help the poor - like building self-sufficiency. Tithes are meant for God, and Christ taught that as we care for those in need, we care for God.

Before, I naively gave my tithes to the church who hid them secretly but admitted to not sharing them with the poor. Now, I know better and give my tithes for those in need in financially transparent ways. God looks on our hearts but if we truly worship God, our hearts are more and more willing to do God’s will above mens’ and we love better and better.

What you're really saying, in effect, is that you naively gave tithes to the church because you didn't read D&C 119.
So who's fault was that?

[cab]

I would like to hear precepts taught by the power of the Holy Ghost, which should have a more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword, or anything else. Likewise I would love to see the day where visitations of angels, miraculous healings, gift of tongues, casting out of devils, prophecies and visions, and eye witness accounts of the Savior are encouraged, experienced, and freely shared in the church.

[simpleton]

Fully implement the full Law of Consecration/United Order,( I suppose there would be discussions over the 2) church wide, including every single leader down to the poorest of poor. Then you wouldn't have all the arguments over tithing, crooked business dealings, brother seeking to excell one above another in business. It would eliminate the lust after material things. It would create a true " brotherhood of man" instead of the fake calling each other brother at church, then being dishonest in our dealings with each other in business during the week. It would eliminate competition, which is of the devil.
But hey, those are crazy ideas in this Babylonian society of every man for himself, sink or swim.
Yet I think those ldeals are some of what is in Enochs Zion that is predicted to come back to this earth sometime.....

[I AM]

Fully implement the full Law of Consecration/United Order,( I suppose there would be discussions over the 2) church wide, including every single leader down to the poorest of poor. Then you wouldn't have all the arguments over tithing, crooked business dealings, brother seeking to excell one above another in business. It would eliminate the lust after material things. It would create a true " brotherhood of man" instead of the fake calling each other brother at church, then being dishonest in our dealings with each other in business during the week. It would eliminate competition, which is of the devil.
But hey, those are crazy ideas in this Babylonian society of every man for himself, sink or swim.
Yet I think those ldeals are some of what is in Enochs Zion that is predicted to come back to this earth sometime.....

---------------

20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.
D&C 49

[Thinker]

Robinhood,
I’ve read D&C 119 - tithing on interest and surplus.
I’ve also read Christ’s teachings about loving God by caring for those in need. And who do tithes belong to? God. Christ also said that those commandments (to love God and others as ourselves) prioritize above “all the law and the prophets.” I follow Christ over Joseph Smith.

You mentioned fault. All make mistakes and sin, but real evil is shifting blame. I believe the reason why Utah has lead the US in mental illness (like depression) and why many members suffer similarly, is partly because of distorted trachings like leaders refusing to apologize and instead shifting the blame. Then, many follow the prophets in shifting blame. And we have some taking on too much blame an others not taking their own response-ability - the essence of neurosis and narcissism.

[Durzan]

Robinhood,
I’ve read D&C 119 - tithing on interest and surplus.
I’ve also read Christ’s teachings about loving God by caring for those in need. And who do tithes belong to? God. Christ also said that those commandments (to love God and others as ourselves) prioritize above “all the law and the prophets.” I follow Christ over Joseph Smith.

Christ wasn't teaching to prioritize those commandments... He was summarizing the underlying principles and Godly Philosophies of ALL God given commandments in two distinct phrases that were presented as the two great commandments. Literally every single one of the original Ten Commandments and the Be Attitudes (and all other commandments for ANY dispensation) can fall as a bullet point under one of those two principles.

[Thinker]

• “37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
  38 This is the first and great commandment.
  39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
  40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. - Matthew 22

How do we love God? “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto Me.”

Spoiler