More heartland evidence from early church leaders

[kirtland r.m.]

More heartland evidence. Cumorah: scholars vs prophetshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6zEZmA0cEE
The church leaders are quoted saying the battles ending the Nephite people were at the Cumorah site in New York state. Not at a second site anywhere else.No second hill Cumorah.

[Cheetos]

Cumorah in New York may support a heartland theory but then again, it doesn't rule out Book of Mormon events taking place in Central America, Mexico, or South America either.

[kittycat51]

I posted this previously on LDSFF. Will post again on this OP because it applies

In 1835 Oliver Cowdery wrote several letters to W. W. Phelps, who was the editor of the Messenger and Advocate. These were titled, Letter I, Letter II. Letter III, Letter IV, Letter V, Letter VI, Letter VII, and Letter VIII. (Link directs you to the Joseph Smith Papers Online) Both newspapers were published with the direction and approval of the Prophet Joseph Smith. In 1841 these same letters were published in Nauvoo in the Times and Seasons (V. 2, p. 379). These letters were again published in The Improvement Era (1899, Vol. 2, pp. 729-734).
“…Here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed. By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the Book of Mormon, you will read Mormon's account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round this hill Cumorah. In this valley fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites—once so highly favored of the Lord, but at that time in darkness, doomed to suffer extermination by the hand of their barbarous and uncivilized brethren. From the top of this hill, Mormon, with a few others, after the battle, gazed with horror upon the mangled remains of those who, the day before, were filled with anxiety, hope, or doubt.” Oliver Cowdery's Letter VII Joseph Smith Papers “Letter VII,” LDS Messenger and Advocate, July 1835, 1:155–159

Quotes from Prophets, Apostles and Saints on “One Cumorah”

1. “I do not believe that the classrooms or the pulpits of our Church are for laboratory purposes in which to experiment with new doctrines and speculative notions. They are exclusively for the use of those who are willing to convert men and women and boys and girls to the truth. . . . I do not believe we should give credence to the highly speculative theories about Book of Mormon geography. I do not believe that there were two Hill Cumorahs, one in Central America and the other one up in New York, for the convenience of the Prophet Joseph Smith, so that the poor boy would not have to walk clear to Central America to get the gold plates. I do not believe we can be good Latter-day Saints and question the integrity of Joseph Smith. I do not believe we can be good Latter-day Saints and question the testimony of the eleven witnesses of the Book of Mormon. I do not believe you have a testimony of the truth if you question the accuracy of the translation of the Book of Mormon.” Mark E. Petersen LDS Conference Reports, Sunday afternoon, April 5, 1953

2. “…This modernistic theory of necessity, in order to be consistent, must place the waters of Ripliancum and the Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America, notwithstanding the teachings of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years. Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon. It is for this reason that evidence is here presented to show that it is not only possible that these places could be located as the Church has held during the past century, but that in very deed such is the case… It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Ramah. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all… It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon. Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery. Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history.” Doctrines of Salvation Joseph Fielding Smith Chapter 12

3. “The United States is the promised land foretold in the Book of Mormon—a place where divine guidance directed inspired men to create the conditions necessary for the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.” Elder L. Tom Perry Ensign Dec. 2012

4. “Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the state of New York. It was here that Moroni hid up the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated. (Morm. 6; Ether 15.) Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.” (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, pp. 232-241.) (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine “CUMORAH,” 1966, p. 175)

5. “We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Wm. Sampson, who before his death owned the property. When we went up there and looked around, we felt that we were standing on holy ground. The brethren located, as near as they thought was possible, the place from which the plates of the Book of Mormon were taken by the Prophet. We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill. Evidence of the great battles that have been fought there in days gone by are manifest in the numerous spear and arrow-heads that have been found by farmers while plowing in that neighborhood. We were fortunate enough to obtain a few of the arrowheads.” (George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, Third Day—Morning Session p. 56)

6. “Aug. 11, Wed: President McCune and I went early to the Grove. Later we were conveyed by auto to the Hill Cumorah by Brother Bean. We climbed the hill and traversed it back and fore and examined it with interest and care. It is the largest of the many glacial drumlins of the locality, and is the most prominent of all the elevations in the neighborhood. Aside from the fact that the plates of the Book of Mormon were taken from this hill, I was greatly interested in looking from its summit over the surrounding region and in contemplating the tremendous battle-scenes of the past, whereby first the Jaredites and later the Nephites were exterminated as nations. I believe the Book of Mormon account without reservation or modification. I believe, also, and express it as my personal conviction, that many ancient records, possibly those from which Mormon made his abridgment, are still concealed in that hill. I believe also that they will be brought forth in the Lord's due time, and that until that time no man will succeed in finding them.” (James E. Talmage Journal Entries, 1920, pg 132-133; Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, BYU: MSS 229, Box 6, Folder 1, Journal 23.)

7. “Millennia ago he declared: “There shall none come into this land [he was speaking of America] save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord… In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation… Thus perished at the foot of Cumorah the remnant of the once mighty Jaredite nation, of whom the Lord had said, “There shall be none greater … upon all the face of the earth.” (Ether 1:43.)… This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites, flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites... The tragic fate of the Jaredite and the Nephite civilizations is proof positive that the Lord meant it when he said that this “is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.” (Ether 2:9.) This information, wrote Moroni, addressing himself to us who today occupy this land, “cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles” (now, Gentiles is the term used by the Book of Mormon prophets to refer to the present inhabitants of America and to the peoples of the old world from which they came)... Now my beloved brethren and sisters everywhere, both members of the Church and nonmembers, I bear you my personal witness that I know that the things I have presented to you today are true—both those pertaining to past events and those pertaining to events yet to come. The issue we face is clear and well defined. The choice is ours. The question is: Shall we of this dispensation repent and obey the laws of the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, or shall we continue to defy them until we ripen in iniquity That we will repent and obey and thereby qualify to receive the blessings promised to the righteous in this land, I humbly pray in the name of Jesus Christ, our Redeemer. Amen." America’s Destiny Marion G. Romney Oct 1975

8. "Oliver Cowdery wrote that the Ephraimites and the Lamanites were the "original settlers of this continent," and that "an ancient prophet caused the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated to be buried nearly two thousand years ago, in which is now called Ontario County, New York. In this same issue, W. W. Phelps wrote that it was "by that book [the Book of Mormon] I learned that the poor Indians of America were of the remnants of Israel." Many other times editor Phelps identified the land of America as being the place where at least some Book of Mormon history took place, including the last battles of both the Jaredites and the Nephites (see Messenger and Advocate, vol. 2, October 1835, and the letter of W. W. Phelps to Oliver Cowdery in that same issue.) Oliver Cowdery Latter Day Saints' Messenger and Advocate, July 1835, pp. 158-159

9. “We shall now introduce much circumstantial evidence, from American antiquities, and from the traditions of the natives, etc. First, says Mr. Boudinot: "It is said among their principal or beloved men, that they have it handed down from their ancestors, that the book which the white people have, was once theirs: that while they had it they prospered exceedingly, etc. They also say, that their fathers were possessed of an extraordinary Divine Spirit, by which they foretold future events, and controlled the common course of nature; and this they transmitted to their offspring, on condition of their obeying the sacred laws; that they did, by these means, bring down showers of blessings upon their beloved people; but that this power, for a long time past, had entirely ceased." Colonel James Smith, in his journal, while a prisoner among the natives, says: "They have a tradition, that in the beginning of this continent, the angels or heavenly inhabitants, as they call them, frequently visited the people, and talked with their forefathers, and gave directions how to pray. Mr. Boudinot, in his able work, remarks concerning their language: "Their language, in its roots, idiom, and particular construction, appears to have the whole genius of the Hebrew; and what is very remarkable, and well worthy of serious attention, has most of the peculiarities of that language." There is a tradition related by an aged Indian, of the Stockbridge tribe, that their fathers were once in possession of a "Sacred Book," which was handed down from generation to generation; and at last hid in the earth, since which time they had been under the feet of their enemies. But these oracles were to be restored to them again; and then they would triumph over their enemies, and regain their rights and privileges.” Quoted from A Voice of Warning An introduction to the faith and doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Chapter IV by Parley P. Pratt

10. [Heber C. Kimball] “prophesied that when the final last struggle came to this nation it would be at the Hill Cumorah where both of the former Nations [Jaredite and Nephite] were destroyed" (abt. Heber C. Kimball) Wilford Woodruff's Journal 6:305, December 17, 1866

11. "In 1873, apostles Brigham Young Jr. and George Q. Cannon visited the New York Hill Cumorah and wrote up an account of the same which was published. “Undoubtedly great changes had occurred in the appearance of the surrounding country[side] since the days when Mormon and [his son] Moroni had trod the spot where we stood. Still we could readily understand, even now, how admirable a position this would be [from the hilltop] for a general to occupy in watching and directing the movements of armies and in scrutinizing the position of an enemy. Around Cumorah is yet a land of many waters, rivers and fountains [just] as Mormon said it was in his day. Our emotions on treading on this sacred hill were of the most peculiar character. They were indescribable. This was the hill Ramah of the Jaredites. In this vicinity, Coriantumr and Shiz, with the people whom they led, fought their last battle. For this great battle they were four years preparing, gathering the people together from all parts of the land, and arming men and women, and even children. The battle lasted eight days, and the result was the complete extermination of the Jaredite nation, none being left but the Prophet Ether and Coriantumr, who succeeded in slaying his mortal enemy Shiz. [Ether] and Coriantumr alone, of all that mighty race which had flourished upwards of fifteen hundred, were left. Who can imagine the feelings which he must have had on such an occasion? From the summit of this hill, Mormon and his great son Moroni had also witnessed the gathering of hosts of the Nephites, and the dusky and myriad legions of their deadly enemies, the Lamanites. Around this hill they had marshaled their forces--their twenty-three divisions of ten thousand men each, commanded by the most skillful of their generals, all to be swept away except Moroni. It was here that [Mormon] hid the abridgement which he made of the records [of his people], and which is know known by his name [Book of Mormon]. And it was here, thirty-six years after this tremendous battle, that his son Moroni also hid his abridgment of the book of Ether, and the record which he had made from which we learn the fate of his father, Mormon, and his other companions It was to this spot that about fourteen hundred years after these events, Joseph Smith, the Prophet, was led by Moroni in person, and here the records, engraved on plates, were committed to him for translation. Who could tread this ground and reflect upon these mighty events, and not be filled with indescribable emotion?” Brigham Young, Jr. and George Q. Cannon The Latter-Day Saints' Millennial Star,(35 (33): 513-16), Tuesday, August 19th, 1873

12. Just two months and twelve days before his death in 1877, Brigham Young was establishing a new stake in Farmington, Utah. In his discourse, he said the following: “Orrin P. Rockwell is an eyewitness to some powers of removing the treasures of the earth. He was with certain parties that lived nearby where the plates were found that contain the records of the Book of Mormon. There were a great many treasures hid up by the Nephites. Porter was with them one night when there were treasures, and they could find them easy enough, but they could not obtain them. When [Porter] tells a thing he understands, he will tell it just as he knows it; he is a man that does not lie. He said that on this night when they were engaged hunting for this old treasure, they dug around the end of a chest for some twenty inches. The chest was about three feet square. One man who was determined to have the contents of that chest took his pick and struck into the lid of it, and split through into the chest. The blow took off a piece of the lid, which a certain lady [Lucy Mack Smith, Joseph's mother] kept in her possession until she died. That chest of money went into the bank. Porter describes it so he says this is just as true as the heavens are.” Brigham Young Journal of Discourses (Liverpool, 1878), vol. 19:36-39.

13. "Consider how very fortunate we are to be living in this land of America. Many great events have transpired in this land of destiny. This was the place where Adam dwelt; this was the place where the Garden of Eden was; it was here that Adam met with a body of high priests at Adam-Ondi-Ahman shortly before his death and gave them his final blessing, and the place to which he will return to meet with the leaders of his people (D&C 107:53-57). This was the place of three former civilizations: that of Adam, that of the Jaredites, and that of the Nephites." The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson pp. 587-588

14. McGavin and Bean explain their point of view concerning the identity of the Hill Cumorah as an ancient battlefield. The authors conclude that the scholars "need not search for [Cumorah] in Mexico or Yucatan" E. Cecil McGavin and Willard W. Bean "Cumorah-Land, An Ancient Battlefield," in The Improvement Era 44, September 1941, 526, 571-72.

15. J. Golden Kimball is quoted as saying the following: "Heber C. Kimball said it was revealed to him that the last great destruction of the wicked would be on the lakes near the Hill Cumorah." J. Golden Kimball (abt. Heber C. Kimball) N. B. Lundwall, Temples of the Most High, SLC: Bookcraft, 1941, p. 52.

16. “Once the red men were many; they occupied the country from sea to sea — from the rising to the setting sun; the whole land . . . Thousands of moons ago, when the red men’s forefathers dwelt in peace and possessed this whole land the Great Spirit talked with them, and revealed His law and His will and much knowledge to their wise men and prophets. This they wrote in a Book . . . written on plates of gold and handed down from father to son for many ages and generations. It was then that the people prospered and were strong and mighty; they cultivated the earth, built buildings and cities and abounded in all good things, as the pale faces now do . . . This Book, which contained these things was hid in the earth by Moroni, in a hill called by him Cumorah, which hill is now in the state of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario county . . . Thus ended our first Indian mission, in which we had preached the Gospel in its fullness and distributed the record of their forefathers among three viz.: the Cattaraugus Indians, near Buffalo, N.Y., the Wyandots, of Ohio and the Delawares, west of Missouri.” Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, pp. 56-6; Documentary History of the Church Vol 1: Footnotes 183:2-18

17. "Two great American Christian civilizations—the Jaredites and the Nephites—were swept off this land because they did not “serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ” (Ether 2:12). What will become of our civilization?... I have faith that the Constitution will be saved as prophesied by Joseph Smith. It will be saved by the righteous citizens of this nation who love and cherish freedom. It will be saved by enlightened members of this Church—among others—men and women who understand and abide the principles of the Constitution.
I reverence the Constitution of the United States as a sacred document. To me its words are akin to the revelations of God, for God has placed His stamp of approval upon it.
I testify that the God of heaven sent some of His choicest spirits to lay the foundation of this government, and He has now sent other choice spirits to help preserve it.
We, the blessed beneficiaries of the Constitution, face difficult days in America, “a land which is choice above all other lands” (Ether 2:10)… Exra Taft Benson “Our Divine Constitution Ensign Oct 1987

18. “It is as impossible for me to continue the subject of yesterday as to raise the dead. My lungs are worn out. There is a time to all things, and I must wait. I will give it up, and leave the time to those who can make you hear, and I will continue the subject of my discourse some other time. I want to make a proclamation to the Elders. I wanted you to stay, in order that I might make this proclamation. You know very well that the Lord has led this Church by revelation. I have another revelation in relation to economy in the Church--a great, grand, and glorious revelation. I shall not be able to dwell as largely upon it now as at some other time; but I will give you the first principles. You know there has been great discussion in relation to Zion--where it is, and where the gathering of the dispensation is, and which I am now going to tell you. The prophets have spoken and written upon it; but I will make a proclamation that will cover a broader ground. The whole of America is Zion itself from north to south, and is described by the Prophets, who declare that it is the Zion where the mountain of the Lord should be, and that it should be in the center of the land. When Elders shall take up and examine the old prophecies in the Bible, they will see it.” President Joseph Smith's Remarks--The Whole of America Zion--April Conference, 1844 Section Six 1843-44, p.362


19. “What most impressed me last summer on my first and only expedition to Central America was the complete lack of definite information about anything. Never was so little known about so much… It is just a fact of life that no one knows much at all about these oft-photographed and much-talked-about ruins... Counterparts to the great ritual complexes of Central America once dotted the entire eastern United States, the most notable being the Hopewell culture centering in Ohio and spreading out for hundreds of miles along the entire length of the Mississippi River. These are now believed to be definitely related to corresponding centers in Mesoamerica… One thing that leads us to suspect that most of the great powerhouses whose traces still remain were never anything more than pompous imitations or replicas is their sheer magnificence. The archaeologist finds virtually nothing of the remains of the primitive Christian church until the fourth century, because the true church was not interested in buildings and deliberately avoided the acquisition of lands and edifices that might bind it and its interests to this world. The Book of Mormon is a history of a related primitive church, and one may well ask what kind of remains the Nephites would leave us from their more virtuous days. A closer approximation to the Book of Mormon picture of Nephite culture is seen in the earth and palisade structures of the Hopewell and Adena culture areas than in the later stately piles of stone in Mesoamerica… Though such piles as the great pyramid-temple of Chichén Itzá yield to few buildings in the world in beauty of proportion and grandeur of conception, there is something disturbing about most of these overpowering ruins. Writers describing them through the years have ever confessed to feelings of sadness and oppression as they contemplate the moldy magnificence—the futility of it all: “They have all gone away from the house on the hill,” and today we don’t even know who they were
The great monuments do not represent what the Nephites stood for; rather, they stand for what their descendants, “mixed with the blood of their brethren,” descended to. But seen in the newer and wider perspective of comparative religious studies, they suggest to us not only the vanity of mankind and the futility of man’s unaided efforts, but also something nobler; the constant search of men to recapture a time when the powers of heaven were truly at the disposal of a righteous people.” Ancient Temples: What Do They Signify? By Hugh Nibley September 1972

20. “The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3 definitely established the following facts: That the hill Cumorah, and the hill Ramah are identical. That it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites fought their great last battles. That it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them." Anthony Ivins Improvement Era June 1928

21. “On the title page I read that it is “written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile.” In the introduction to the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ, it says that the Lamanites “are among the ancestors of the American Indians.” As I read the Book of Mormon, it seemed to me that it was about my American Indian ancestors. It tells the story of a people, a part of which were later described as “Lamanites,” who migrated from Jerusalem to a “land of promise” (1 Nephi 2:20) about 600 B.C.” “Come unto Me, O Ye House of Israel” By Elder Larry Echo Hawk of the Seventy Ensign Oct 2012

22. "But while this direct testimony from the Prophet himself is lacking, it is not lacking from those who are competent to speak on the subject--and who did speak of it and who published their statements, and one of these in the life time of the prophet, Oliver Cowdery, close associate with Joseph Smith in bringing forth the Book of Mormon, and his chief amanuensis in the translation of it, declares this hill from which the Book of Mormon was taken to be the Hill Cumorah, the place where Mormon deposited "all the records in his possession, except his abridgment from the plates of Nephi which he gave to his son; and also emphatically declares it to be the scene of the destruction of both the Jaredite and Nephite people. This statement Oliver published in the Church organ at the time, called the "Saints Messenger and Advocate," Kirtland, Ohio, 1834. There are nine letters published under the title of "Early Scenes and Incidents in the Church." These letters were reproduced in the Improvement Era, Vol. II, 1898-9”. Written for the Deseret News by B. H. Roberts.

23. "From the time Father Bosley located near Avon, he found and plowed up axes and irons, and had sufficient to make his mill irons, and had always abundance of iron on hand without purchasing. In the towns of Bloomfield, Victor, Manchester, and in the regions round about, there were hills upon the tops of which were entrenchments and fortifications, and in them were human bones, axes, tomahawks, points of arrows, beads and pipes, which were frequently found; and it was a common occurrence in the country to plow up axes, which I have done many times myself. I have visited the fortifications on the tops of those hills frequently, and the one near Bloomfield I have crossed hundreds of times, which is on the bluff of Honeyoye River, at the outlet of Honeyoye Lake. In that region there are many small deep lakes, and in some of them the bottom has never been found. Fish abound in them. The hill Cumorah is a high hill for that country, and had the appearance of a fortification or entrenchment around it. In the State of New York, probably there are hundreds of these fortifications which are now visible, and I have seen them in many other parts of the United States. Readers of the Book of Mormon will remember that in this very region, according to that sacred record, the final battles were fought between the Nephites and Lamanites. At the hill Cumorah, the Nephites made their last stand prior to their utter extermination, A. D., 385. Thus was Heber preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles, above the graves of the ancients of Israel, whose records with the fullness of that Gospel, and the relics of their prowess and civilization, were now whispering from the dust." Life of Heber C. Kimball by Orson F. Whitney Mounds at Cumorah

[Davka]

I think the fact that we are even having these conversations is evidence of the veracity of the BOM. If Joseph Smith made it up with the intent to convince people it was a record of an actual people, he surely could have included some details that made the story appear to have happened in a particular place. But he didn't. Because he didn't write it. Nephi and Mormon and Moroni did and they weren't concerned about proving the book's truth geographically.

[buffalo_girl]

My husband & I visited Hill Cumorah and surrounding area in early November, 2002. We arrived too late to visit sites and found a motel in Manchester. As tired as I was from an all day drive from New Hampshire, I was unable to sleep. My mind was filled with images and feelings such as I have never felt anywhere or at any time in my life. There was an overwhelming destructive and chaotic energy as I would imagine being in the midst of epic murderous violence. We left the motel at first light and enjoyed a private walk to the top of Cumorah and round about the countryside. The early hour along with cold, wet snow kept others indoors that morning. From the top of Cumorah, I looked West and felt anxious to be 'on our way' home to the northern Great Plains.

[JK4Woods]

Cumorah in New York may support a heartland theory but then again, it doesn't rule out Book of Mormon events taking place in Central America, Mexico, or South America either.

Yes it does. 99% of the action in Old Testament times takes place in an area 100 miles by 60 miles.
Only a few places are far reaching (several hundred more miles from center point of Israel like the land of UR).

Paul traveled around the Mediterranean sea by modern (advanced) transportation- sailing ships and was still contiguously connected to Israel.

Book of Mormon geography is as small as ancient Israel. It can be no other way.

The South American advanced civilizations have some other explanation.

Besides, the whole face of the land was changed during the three days of darkness, whirlwinds, tempest, and earthquakes during the crucifixion.
The geography described before Christ is not necessarily a match to what the face of the land looked like after. Mountains were made low, cities sunk, etc. etc.

The wars between the Lamanites and Nephites were seasonal. Little is said about the actual climate. Deep freezes would account for the break in campaigns.

[Col. Flagg]

Archaeologists and historians have been unable to find any evidence whatsoever that a great battle occurred at The Hill Cumorrah site where a million people were supposed to have been killed. No bones, weapons or anything that you would expect to find from a great battle has been found in or around the area.

[larsenb]

Below is a comment by Eldon V. Guymon to the article I quoted here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51042&start=30#p921192, and linked here: https://www.mormoninterpreter.com/zarah ... est-novel/ . It is a fairly good and clear statement as to why people who take Book of Mormon passages having to do with location/geography of the main events in the Book of Mormon seriously, have big problems accepting the CONUS Heartland model (CONUS, I think is a much better usage than 'North America', which is exceedingly offputing and confusing, being as how North America has long been regarded as the North American continent of our Hemisphere):

Eldon V. Guymon on May 19, 2016 at 11:54 am said:

Brother Neville’s books prove nothing about Mesoamerica or the Heartland being the lands of The Book of Mormon. In the book “Jesus The Christ” by Apostle James Talmage (Chapter 2, page16) we find that the land of Desolation probably was located in Mexico. In The Book of Mormon we read that the Hill Cumorah (Ramah) was located in the land of Desolation (Ether 9: 3, 15:11, and Mormon 6: 6). The Hill Cumorah where Mormon buried the Nephite records was probably in Mexico. Hence, the Heartland theory is suspect.

In the Index of the B of M (printed in March 2012) it is written: “Sidon River, most prominent river in Nephite territory, runs north to the sea.” Brother Rod Meldrum wrote saying that he was getting “runs north to the sea” removed from the Index. Yes, it is gone. Who in SLC was authorized to make this change? This I want to know.

Because the Sidon River runs north to the sea, the Mississippi River is not the Sidon, and the “Heartland Therory”
can be discounted. Anyone that can read well can surely understand that (1) the land of Zarahemla was located north of the land of Nephi, (2)that the “head” (most likely headwaters, probably not confluence) of the River Sidon was near to Manti and the boundary line between the land of Nephi to the South and Zarahemla to the north, (3) that the city of Zarahemla was located well to the north of the “head” of the river Sidon, the land of Nephi and the city of Manti, the city of Zarahemla being located on the bank of the River Sidon (Alma 2; 24-27), (4) that it was downhill from Manti and the land of Nephi to the city of Zarahemla. (Alma 22: 17-33 and Omni 1: 13 and Alma 16: 6). Moreover, Rod Meldrum reports that it was downhill from the land of Nephi on the south to Zarahemla on the North (Meldrum, “Exploring The Book of Mormon in America’s Heartland,” p. 197). (5) that water runs downhill.
The Sidon ran downhill to the north. The Mississippi runs south. The Mississippi does not appear to be the River Sidon.

The Book of Mormon is the word of God. It discounts the Heartland Theory. For example. Lehi apparently landed at the west sea (Pacific Ocean), surely not at the Great Lakes and probably not on the east sea or the Gulf Coast. (Alma 22: 28). General Moroni went to the west sea (Pacific Ocean?) to fight the Lamanites (Alma 52: 11), then he went to the east sea (Atlantic Ocean?) to fight the Lamanites (Alma 51: 26 and 52: 15-19). Antipus was apparently appointed by General Moroni to lead the Nephite armies on the west sea (Alma 56: 9&31). General Moroni probably could not have traveled from the west sea of the USA to the east sea. He could easily have traveled across Mesoamerica.

The land of Nephi “was divided by a narrow strip of wilderness that ran even from the sea east even to the sea west” (Alma 22: 27). If the Heartland of the USA contained the land of Zarahemla, and if the city of Zarahemla is located at Zarahemla, Iowa across the Mississippi from Nauvoo, then where is this narrow strip of wilderness located in the USA that ran from the sea east to the sea west. One will have better luck locating this narrow strip of wilderness in Mesoamerica where the Cuchumatanes mountains run in a straight line from the sea east to the sea west.

From the time that I was a boy, Mormons have taught me that the Heartland is the right place and that the Hill Cumorah is in New York. Supporters of the Heartland Theory, refer to Joseph Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith, President Hinckley’s secretary, Orson Pratt, and others, and they believe that these people support their Heartland Theory.

I have a letter from Apostle, Dallin Oaks. His letter tells me that the Church has no position as to the location of the lands of The Book of Mormon. This being the case, then the writings of historic Church leaders on the location of the lands in question cannot be revelation. The Book of Mormon is revelation, and it describes the lands of The Book of Mormon. Read it, quote it, and learn the truth. This I have done. I have underlined every verse in this book that refers to the lands in question. I am convinced beyond any doubt that Mesoamerica is the place where Zarahemla was located.

I have written a booklet on this subject. I am Eldon V Guymon.

People get caught up in memes, i.e., in ideas about this or that. They can be very captivating and can contain a certain amount of logic. They aren't necessarily true. Unfortunately, when such 'memes' come from people in positions of authority in the Church, they gain even greater power with many members of the Church.

The Roper, Fields and Bassist article, as well as John Lund's book on the subject, make a very powerful case that Joseph was available to act as its editor during the time the John Lloyd Stephens-related editorials appeared in the 1842 Times and Seasons. The Roper, Fields and Bassist article also rather demolishes Jonathan Nevill'es books' thesis avering that Benjamin Winchester was the actual author of these editorials.

i personally would think it would be very informative to see what the authors cited by kittycat51 and Kirtland would think of the Heartland Model after making a thorough study of the actual Book of Mormon passages regarding its own geography.

Of course, you HLs can take it or leave this, and I'm sure most will leave it. That is how the power of 'memes' work. We only have to look at some current and very powerful 'memes': Ashkenazim don't really have a Jewish/Israelitish background; the flat earth idea; the Trump Russian collusion theory. And the list goes on and on . . . . . .

[larsenb]

Cumorah in New York may support a heartland theory but then again, it doesn't rule out Book of Mormon events taking place in Central America, Mexico, or South America either.

Yes it does. 99% of the action in Old Testament times takes place in an area 100 miles by 60 miles.
Only a few places are far reaching (several hundred more miles from center point of Israel like the land of UR).

Paul traveled around the Mediterranean sea by modern (advanced) transportation- sailing ships and was still contiguously connected to Israel.

Book of Mormon geography is as small as ancient Israel. It can be no other way.

The South American advanced civilizations have some other explanation. . . . . .

The problem with your idea is that the areal extent of the actual Heartland Model (at least to my understanding), is that it takes place in a much, much broader area than one circumscribed by 100 X 60 miles.

[EmmaLee]

'My theory is bigger than your theory'. Trying to ascertain why anyone (of either camp) would start anymore threads on this topic (or polygamy, or tithing), when exactly 100% of every BoM location threads go the exact same way, with the exact same players, without exception. Has anyone's mind been changed one way or the other? Not that I've seen in over 13 years on the forum. Ah well.

[larsenb]

'My theory is bigger than your theory'. Trying to ascertain why anyone (of either camp) would start anymore threads on this topic (or polygamy, or tithing), when exactly 100% of every BoM location threads go the exact same way, with the exact same players, without exception. Has anyone's mind been changed one way or the other? Not that I've seen in over 13 years on the forum. Ah well.

My contention isn't that "my theory is bigger than your theory", it's that the actual geographically related statements from the Book of Mormon don't fit the HL model. You don't even have to bring up any other model to take this position. HL proponents have to twist and stretch and ignore so many of these statements. This is a fairly objective assessment for those of you who aren't totally wedded to the HL theory.

How many threads in this forum, from me or anyone else, do we see created solely to support the so-called MesoAmerican Book of Mormon location model? There may be one or two, way in the past. But by far, the most threads on this topic are from HL supporters.

You simply don't know how many readers world-wide, are affected by these 'discussions'. I'm sure, many, many see the reasonableness of the anti-HL model arguments . . . . . regardless of what other model they may believe in.

[JK4Woods]

Cumorah in New York may support a heartland theory but then again, it doesn't rule out Book of Mormon events taking place in Central America, Mexico, or South America either.

Yes it does. 99% of the action in Old Testament times takes place in an area 100 miles by 60 miles.
Only a few places are far reaching (several hundred more miles from center point of Israel like the land of UR).

Paul traveled around the Mediterranean sea by modern (advanced) transportation- sailing ships and was still contiguously connected to Israel.

Book of Mormon geography is as small as ancient Israel. It can be no other way.

The South American advanced civilizations have some other explanation. . . . . .

The problem with your idea is that the areal extent of the actual Heartland Model (at least to my understanding), is that it takes place in a much, much broader area than one circumscribed by 100 X 60 miles.

Well... I'm not a believer that the Mississippi is the river Sidon. In fact, I don't really give a hoot how the descriptive geography in the BoM does, or does not fit in the current geography of Michigan/Ohio/Great Lakes area. Suffice for me the anecdotal evidence of the DNA, Hopewell mounds and archeological sites, Hill Cumorah and early proclamations from Joseph Smith and others.

[larsenb]

Cumorah in New York may support a heartland theory but then again, it doesn't rule out Book of Mormon events taking place in Central America, Mexico, or South America either.

Yes it does. 99% of the action in Old Testament times takes place in an area 100 miles by 60 miles.
Only a few places are far reaching (several hundred more miles from center point of Israel like the land of UR).

Paul traveled around the Mediterranean sea by modern (advanced) transportation- sailing ships and was still contiguously connected to Israel.

Book of Mormon geography is as small as ancient Israel. It can be no other way.

The South American advanced civilizations have some other explanation. . . . . .

The problem with your idea is that the areal extent of the actual Heartland Model (at least to my understanding), is that it takes place in a much, much broader area than one circumscribed by 100 X 60 miles.

Well... I'm not a believer that the Mississippi is the river Sidon. In fact, I don't really give a hoot how the descriptive geography in the BoM does, or does not fit in the current geography of Michigan/Ohio/Great Lakes area. Suffice for me the anecdotal evidence of the DNA, Hopewell mounds and archeological sites, Hill Cumorah and early proclamations from Joseph Smith and others.

A fair statement of belief. To my understanding, though, identifying the Mississippi as the River Sidon, is an important plank of Meldrum's CONUS Heartland Model.

I personally (along with many others) think, that if you want to seriously try to identify the location of the main events of the Book of Mormon, it may not be a very productive approach to ignore the geographic-related passages from the book itself

[OCDMOM]

Tonight at 7 pm and 10 pm Monday 3-25-19. Natgeo is doing a show called The Lost City. They have new findings on how epic the Mayan cities might have been. Just pointing out for those that enjoy this kind of thing. Also on Thurs night.

[EmmaLee]

'My theory is bigger than your theory'. Trying to ascertain why anyone (of either camp) would start anymore threads on this topic (or polygamy, or tithing), when exactly 100% of every BoM location threads go the exact same way, with the exact same players, without exception. Has anyone's mind been changed one way or the other? Not that I've seen in over 13 years on the forum. Ah well.

My contention isn't that "my theory is bigger than your theory", it's that the actual geographically related statements from the Book of Mormon don't fit the HT model. You don't even have to bring up any other model to take this position. HT proponents have to twist and stretch and ignore so many of these statements. This is a fairly objective assessment for those of you who aren't totally wedded to the HT theory.

How many threads in this forum, from me or anyone else, do we see created solely to support the so-called MesoAmerican Book of Mormon location model? There may be one or two, way in the past. But by far, the most threads on this topic are from HT supporters.

You simply don't know how many readers world-wide, are affected by these 'discussions'. I'm sure, many, many see the reasonableness of the anti-HT model arguments . . . . . regardless of what other model they may believe in.

You missed the point with my "bigger" comment (I was not in any way referring to BoM geography). All of this is nothing more than a p*ssing contest. There is zero "proof" you can show me that would change my mind (and I've studied this subject for 40+ years now), and I'm quite sure there is zero "proof" I could show you that would change your mind, etc. In the end, I do not even have a dog in the fight, as my knowledge of where the Book of Mormon physically took place is very plainly stated in the book itself. So carry on, all; I'll just skip these threads from now on as they are the perfect example of Einstein's definition of insanity, IMO; just like the polygamy and tithing threads.

[larsenb]

'My theory is bigger than your theory'. Trying to ascertain why anyone (of either camp) would start anymore threads on this topic (or polygamy, or tithing), when exactly 100% of every BoM location threads go the exact same way, with the exact same players, without exception. Has anyone's mind been changed one way or the other? Not that I've seen in over 13 years on the forum. Ah well.

My contention isn't that "my theory is bigger than your theory", it's that the actual geographically related statements from the Book of Mormon don't fit the HT model. You don't even have to bring up any other model to take this position. HT proponents have to twist and stretch and ignore so many of these statements. This is a fairly objective assessment for those of you who aren't totally wedded to the HT theory.

How many threads in this forum, from me or anyone else, do we see created solely to support the so-called MesoAmerican Book of Mormon location model? There may be one or two, way in the past. But by far, the most threads on this topic are from HT supporters.

You simply don't know how many readers world-wide, are affected by these 'discussions'. I'm sure, many, many see the reasonableness of the anti-HT model arguments . . . . . regardless of what other model they may believe in.

You missed the point with my "bigger" comment (I was not in any way referring to BoM geography). All of this is nothing more than a p*ssing contest. There is zero "proof" you can show me that would change my mind (and I've studied this subject for 40+ years now), and I'm quite sure there is zero "proof" I could show you that would change your mind, etc. In the end, I do not even have a dog in the fight, as my knowledge of where the Book of Mormon physically took place is very plainly stated in the book itself. So carry on, all; I'll just skip these threads from now on as they are the perfect example of Einstein's definition of insanity, IMO; just like the polygamy and tithing threads.

I just respond to Heartlanders' theories and explanations. For me, it's kinda fun and sometimes challenging. Probably just as well that your dog isn't in the fight. I strongly suspect, though, that when the topic comes up again, and again, we will see your thanks given to comments supporting your position

And I would say that my approach is different than yours. I'm very willing to regard good proof HLers can come up with outside of hearsay and opinion/and or statements of belief.

As an example, I recognized that markharr's Hebrew script examples and even the possible Chanukah menora was evidence of Hebrew/Jewish influence in the areas they were found, they just didn't fit the time template implied by the Nephite/Lamanite story. Why? The scripts came into being well after Lehi left Jerualem. The nine lamped/branched menorah came into use after the Macabee Revolt and the rededication of the Temple in about 165 BC.

No HLer has conceded this apparent fact and its implications. I.e., they use this forum to try to convince others of their views and/or beliefs but have little interest in discussing the issues if they get any push-back.

[Cheetos]

Cumorah in New York may support a heartland theory but then again, it doesn't rule out Book of Mormon events taking place in Central America, Mexico, or South America either.

Yes it does. 99% of the action in Old Testament times takes place in an area 100 miles by 60 miles.
Only a few places are far reaching (several hundred more miles from center point of Israel like the land of UR).

Paul traveled around the Mediterranean sea by modern (advanced) transportation- sailing ships and was still contiguously connected to Israel.

Book of Mormon geography is as small as ancient Israel. It can be no other way.

The South American advanced civilizations have some other explanation.

Besides, the whole face of the land was changed during the three days of darkness, whirlwinds, tempest, and earthquakes during the crucifixion.
The geography described before Christ is not necessarily a match to what the face of the land looked like after. Mountains were made low, cities sunk, etc. etc.

The wars between the Lamanites and Nephites were seasonal. Little is said about the actual climate. Deep freezes would account for the break in campaigns.

It would be absurd to believe BoM people's were limited to a very small geographical area as you describe.

[Cheetos]

Archaeologists and historians have been unable to find any evidence whatsoever that a great battle occurred at The Hill Cumorrah site where a million people were supposed to have been killed. No bones, weapons or anything that you would expect to find from a great battle has been found in or around the area.

It's rather hard to find evidence when no official scientific archaeological dig has ever taken place at the Hill Cumorah.

[EmmaLee]

'My theory is bigger than your theory'. Trying to ascertain why anyone (of either camp) would start anymore threads on this topic (or polygamy, or tithing), when exactly 100% of every BoM location threads go the exact same way, with the exact same players, without exception. Has anyone's mind been changed one way or the other? Not that I've seen in over 13 years on the forum. Ah well.

My contention isn't that "my theory is bigger than your theory", it's that the actual geographically related statements from the Book of Mormon don't fit the HT model. You don't even have to bring up any other model to take this position. HT proponents have to twist and stretch and ignore so many of these statements. This is a fairly objective assessment for those of you who aren't totally wedded to the HT theory.

How many threads in this forum, from me or anyone else, do we see created solely to support the so-called MesoAmerican Book of Mormon location model? There may be one or two, way in the past. But by far, the most threads on this topic are from HT supporters.

You simply don't know how many readers world-wide, are affected by these 'discussions'. I'm sure, many, many see the reasonableness of the anti-HT model arguments . . . . . regardless of what other model they may believe in.

You missed the point with my "bigger" comment (I was not in any way referring to BoM geography). All of this is nothing more than a p*ssing contest. There is zero "proof" you can show me that would change my mind (and I've studied this subject for 40+ years now), and I'm quite sure there is zero "proof" I could show you that would change your mind, etc. In the end, I do not even have a dog in the fight, as my knowledge of where the Book of Mormon physically took place is very plainly stated in the book itself. So carry on, all; I'll just skip these threads from now on as they are the perfect example of Einstein's definition of insanity, IMO; just like the polygamy and tithing threads.

I just respond to Heartlanders' theories and explanations. For me, it's fun . . . . an enjoyable excercise. Probably just as well that your dog isn't in the fight. I strongly suspect, though, that when the topic comes up again, and again, we will see your thanks given to comments supporting your position Prove me wrong

And I strongly suspect it's WAY more than merely "responding" to Heartlanders' theories for you. It seems viscerally personal to you, as if your very life and soul depends on bashing any/all theories besides your own. Whether that is actually the case or not, that's how you come across. Like your very eternal soul is at stake if you don't "prove" others wrong. LOL on the "thanks" comment. I'll try to resist.

[larsenb]

My contention isn't that "my theory is bigger than your theory", it's that the actual geographically related statements from the Book of Mormon don't fit the HT model. You don't even have to bring up any other model to take this position. HT proponents have to twist and stretch and ignore so many of these statements. This is a fairly objective assessment for those of you who aren't totally wedded to the HT theory.

How many threads in this forum, from me or anyone else, do we see created solely to support the so-called MesoAmerican Book of Mormon location model? There may be one or two, way in the past. But by far, the most threads on this topic are from HT supporters.

You simply don't know how many readers world-wide, are affected by these 'discussions'. I'm sure, many, many see the reasonableness of the anti-HT model arguments . . . . . regardless of what other model they may believe in.

You missed the point with my "bigger" comment (I was not in any way referring to BoM geography). All of this is nothing more than a p*ssing contest. There is zero "proof" you can show me that would change my mind (and I've studied this subject for 40+ years now), and I'm quite sure there is zero "proof" I could show you that would change your mind, etc. In the end, I do not even have a dog in the fight, as my knowledge of where the Book of Mormon physically took place is very plainly stated in the book itself. So carry on, all; I'll just skip these threads from now on as they are the perfect example of Einstein's definition of insanity, IMO; just like the polygamy and tithing threads.

I just respond to Heartlanders' theories and explanations. For me, it's fun . . . . an enjoyable excercise. Probably just as well that your dog isn't in the fight. I strongly suspect, though, that when the topic comes up again, and again, we will see your thanks given to comments supporting your position Prove me wrong

And I strongly suspect it's WAY more than merely "responding" to Heartlanders' theories for you. It seems viscerally personal to you, as if your very life and soul depends on bashing any/all theories besides your own. Whether that is actually the case or not, that's how you come across. Like your very eternal soul is at stake if you don't "prove" others wrong. LOL on the "thanks" comment. I'll try to resist.

Your very statement shows how viscerally personal this is to you. But I do see the effort as an exciting intellectual task, very much like what Schliemann did w/Hisarlik (no, not me . . . others doing the real work). I don't think you really understand that. I'm also an archaeology buff; used to take Biblical Archaeology, etc., etc. I've worked on several digs and am currently doing so. Correctly siting the Book of Mormon could be an important issue, down the pike.

My very eternal soul depends on countering HLers??!!! Hardly. I have much more serious issues of repentence to be concerned about

[EmmaLee]

Whatever you say, larsenb.

[larsenb]

Whatever you say, larsenb.

Of course! Whatever, forever

[larsenb]

Cumorah in New York may support a heartland theory but then again, it doesn't rule out Book of Mormon events taking place in Central America, Mexico, or South America either.

Yes it does. 99% of the action in Old Testament times takes place in an area 100 miles by 60 miles.
Only a few places are far reaching (several hundred more miles from center point of Israel like the land of UR).

Paul traveled around the Mediterranean sea by modern (advanced) transportation- sailing ships and was still contiguously connected to Israel.

Book of Mormon geography is as small as ancient Israel. It can be no other way.

The South American advanced civilizations have some other explanation. . . . . .

The problem with your idea is that the areal extent of the actual Heartland Model (at least to my understanding), is that it takes place in a much, much broader area than one circumscribed by 100 X 60 miles.

Well... I'm not a believer that the Mississippi is the river Sidon. In fact, I don't really give a hoot how the descriptive geography in the BoM does, or does not fit in the current geography of Michigan/Ohio/Great Lakes area. Suffice for me the anecdotal evidence of the DNA, Hopewell mounds and archeological sites, Hill Cumorah and early proclamations from Joseph Smith and others.

Regarding your "anecdotal evidence of DNS", here is what Dr. Ugo Perego thinks about Meldrum's use of X haplogroup data (found at http://bmaf.org/node/632 ), with a preface by the BMAF folks:

DNA Statement by Book of Mormon Archaeology Forum

Please, don't fall for the DNA "evidence" being promoted by some members of the Church. We believe in the Book of Mormon with all our being, but we also believe when we use science to prove something, then we should consult the experts and follow basic scientific methods. The Church (approved by the First Presidency on LDS.org) has just released a statement about using DNA to promote a Book of Mormon agenda:

Much as critics and defenders of the Book of Mormon would like to use DNA studies to support their views, the evidence is simply inconclusive. Nothing is known about the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples. Even if such information were known, processes such as population bottleneck, genetic drift, and post-Columbian immigration from West Eurasia make it unlikely that their DNA could be detected today. https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-morm ... s?lang=eng : Book of Mormon and DNA Studies www.lds.org

From Ugo Perego, PhD

There is a video circulating widely on the internet about NEW INCREDIBLE DNA EVIDENCE in favor of the Book of Mormon. I want everyone to know that I do not support the views presented in this video (here is the link on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mADM3RY ... e=youtu.be).

I personally believe the Book of Mormon to be sacred scripture, but not based on genetic evidence.

It is my opinion that the presenter in this video (Rod Meldrum) is oversimplifying and stretching complex scientific data to fit its own view and purposes. This is dangerous because some people might actually believe in what he is saying and take for granted his conclusions. I have listened to Rod Meldrum in the past and spoke with him on several occasions. I have also tried to explain to him the mistakes with his approach, but to no avail.

Here are in a short few points the main problems with the information presented in this video:


1. Lineage (haplogroup) X in the America is an unusual marker, but there is absolutely no evidence to link it to Book of Mormon people.


2. As far as science has been able to determine to date, lineage X has been in the Americas probably long before Book of Mormon times (based on both carbon dating and the molecular clock).


3. It is not true that the first four lineages in the Americas prior to the discovery of haplogroup X are identical to lineages found in Asia. They are related with each other, but the ones in the Americas have their own unique characteristics.


4. Likewise, lineage X in Northern North America has its own unique characteristics and it is not found anywhere else in the world. The one in the Americas is know has lineage X2a.


5. There are other lineage X's in the world (Europe, North Africa, Middle East and Asia) but none of them is the same as their American counterpart X2a.


6. It is not true that lineage X was identified in the Americas in 2003. Data on a fifth lineage in the America has been widely published since 1991.


7. All the DNA that has been talked about in this video is referred to a genetic molecule known as mitochondrial DNA that is transmitted exclusively along the unbroken maternal line. This means that this approach cannot be easily used to determine the genetic ancestry of male lineages such as those described in this video and in the Book of Mormon. In other words, this is not the DNA we would expect to find today from Abraham, Isaac, Joseph, Lehi, Nephi, etc.


8. The LDS Church does not support DNA evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon. Here is something more official found on the LDS.org website:https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-morm ... na-studies…
There is much more to it but this should be sufficient for now. It is too early to know for sure what the actual relationship of lineage X in the Americas with the Old World is and we need to be careful to jump at any conclusions at this time."

HLers ignore this advice from a working PhD geneticist, who is also LDS, at their peril or detriment, imho. His use of this data is simply another 'force-fit' by him to 'prove' his CONUS Heartland model . . . . . among many other force-fits.

[JK4Woods]

Yes it does. 99% of the action in Old Testament times takes place in an area 100 miles by 60 miles.
Only a few places are far reaching (several hundred more miles from center point of Israel like the land of UR).

Paul traveled around the Mediterranean sea by modern (advanced) transportation- sailing ships and was still contiguously connected to Israel.

Book of Mormon geography is as small as ancient Israel. It can be no other way.

The South American advanced civilizations have some other explanation. . . . . .

The problem with your idea is that the areal extent of the actual Heartland Model (at least to my understanding), is that it takes place in a much, much broader area than one circumscribed by 100 X 60 miles.

Well... I'm not a believer that the Mississippi is the river Sidon. In fact, I don't really give a hoot how the descriptive geography in the BoM does, or does not fit in the current geography of Michigan/Ohio/Great Lakes area. Suffice for me the anecdotal evidence of the DNA, Hopewell mounds and archeological sites, Hill Cumorah and early proclamations from Joseph Smith and others.

Regarding your "anecdotal evidence of DNS", here is what Dr. Ugo Perego thinks about Meldrum's use of X haplogroup data (found at http://bmaf.org/node/632 ), with a preface by the BMAF folks:

DNA Statement by Book of Mormon Archaeology Forum

Please, don't fall for the DNA "evidence" being promoted by some members of the Church. We believe in the Book of Mormon with all our being, but we also believe when we use science to prove something, then we should consult the experts and follow basic scientific methods. The Church (approved by the First Presidency on LDS.org) has just released a statement about using DNA to promote a Book of Mormon agenda:

Much as critics and defenders of the Book of Mormon would like to use DNA studies to support their views, the evidence is simply inconclusive. Nothing is known about the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples. Even if such information were known, processes such as population bottleneck, genetic drift, and post-Columbian immigration from West Eurasia make it unlikely that their DNA could be detected today. https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-morm ... s?lang=eng : Book of Mormon and DNA Studies www.lds.org

From Ugo Perego, PhD

There is a video circulating widely on the internet about NEW INCREDIBLE DNA EVIDENCE in favor of the Book of Mormon. I want everyone to know that I do not support the views presented in this video (here is the link on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mADM3RY ... e=youtu.be).

I personally believe the Book of Mormon to be sacred scripture, but not based on genetic evidence.

It is my opinion that the presenter in this video (Rod Meldrum) is oversimplifying and stretching complex scientific data to fit its own view and purposes. This is dangerous because some people might actually believe in what he is saying and take for granted his conclusions. I have listened to Rod Meldrum in the past and spoke with him on several occasions. I have also tried to explain to him the mistakes with his approach, but to no avail.

Here are in a short few points the main problems with the information presented in this video:


1. Lineage (haplogroup) X in the America is an unusual marker, but there is absolutely no evidence to link it to Book of Mormon people.


2. As far as science has been able to determine to date, lineage X has been in the Americas probably long before Book of Mormon times (based on both carbon dating and the molecular clock).


3. It is not true that the first four lineages in the Americas prior to the discovery of haplogroup X are identical to lineages found in Asia. They are related with each other, but the ones in the Americas have their own unique characteristics.


4. Likewise, lineage X in Northern North America has its own unique characteristics and it is not found anywhere else in the world. The one in the Americas is know has lineage X2a.


5. There are other lineage X's in the world (Europe, North Africa, Middle East and Asia) but none of them is the same as their American counterpart X2a.


6. It is not true that lineage X was identified in the Americas in 2003. Data on a fifth lineage in the America has been widely published since 1991.


7. All the DNA that has been talked about in this video is referred to a genetic molecule known as mitochondrial DNA that is transmitted exclusively along the unbroken maternal line. This means that this approach cannot be easily used to determine the genetic ancestry of male lineages such as those described in this video and in the Book of Mormon. In other words, this is not the DNA we would expect to find today from Abraham, Isaac, Joseph, Lehi, Nephi, etc.


8. The LDS Church does not support DNA evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon. Here is something more official found on the LDS.org website:https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-morm ... na-studies…
There is much more to it but this should be sufficient for now. It is too early to know for sure what the actual relationship of lineage X in the Americas with the Old World is and we need to be careful to jump at any conclusions at this time."

HLers ignore this advice from a working PhD geneticist, who is also LDS, at their peril or detriment, imho. His use of this data is simply another 'force-fit' by him to 'prove' his CONUS Heartland model . . . . . among many other force-fits.

OK... you have won me over to the indeterminate location of the Book of Mormon.
I took it on faith when first introduced to it in 1976, received a powerful confirmation that it is true, accepted the Gospel and was baptised.
Ever since I have had a mild curiosity of where it took place, thinking the Mayas were the decendents of the Lamanites. Until I went to Mexico and traveled extensively and concluded for my self that this wasn't the area of the BoM.

I guess we'll know when we visit the libraries in the heavens...

[The Airbender]

The land of Nephi is down in Guatemala area. The Nemenhah people who traveled north ended up living their last days in the New York area, but there were thousands of settlements across north america.