Would Disaffected Members Actual Return If...

[Thinker]

Again,
The scripture seems to refer to any rich person:
“And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”- Matthew 19:24

Church leaders demand TITHES from those who don’t have it to give, and withhold TITHES from the poor - breaking lower and higher commandments. They charge for temple worthine$$ - and they charge on income rather than as scriptural “increase” - thereby often creating poverty. I don’t demand tithes from others nor do I hide it and keep it from those for who it’s meant, nor do I charge for worthiness. So you comparing me to church leaders is absurd. You also don’t know me or what I do.

Tithing belongs to God. The greatest commandments are to love God by loving others. Christ taught that inasmuch as we care for those in need, it is as if we are loving Him. The law of tithing commands and surely Christ would have it that money gathered in the name of Jesus Christ - is for those in need. Despite keeping finances secret, Dallin Oaks admitted not a penny of tithes goes to those in need.

You are not the only one who seems apathetic about the poor being denied TITHES by which they were meant to receive help. It seems most people don’t care unless it affects them - that’s why this issue isn’t a huge focus for many. But there are almost 1,000,000,000!!! of our brothers and sisters who are starving - many will die TODAY - due to related complications. I cannot do it all - but I can stand up for those who have no voice and hope and pray that we all can do what we can as Christ asked.

[ajax]

You are rich compared to the worlds standards. Have you sold all you have and given to the poor? If not, why not?

I agree on tithes, nobody should be required to pay it as part of some requirement or worthiness standard if they don't have a surplus.

[Thinker]

You are rich compared to the worlds standards. Have you sold all you have and given to the poor? If not, why not?

I agree on tithes, nobody should be required to pay it as part of some requirement or worthiness standard if they don't have a surplus.

Again, you don’t know me but make assumptions based on your imagination. Where’s your evidence that I’m in the top richest? You have none - thus you lie. You have no idea if I have given all I had to the poor. You have no idea if I’m rich or poor & you trying to make this a personal attack on me is only because you don’t have any better argument. Shoot the messenger if you can’t handle the truth of the message.

Is this thread about disaffected members of my religion? No because I’m not a religious leader and I don’t demand corrupt tithes from members. This topic is about what might be the reason for members disaffecting or becoming active again. It’s about the lds/mormon church - not about me.

[ajax]

If all wealth were sold and distributed evenly through all the world, it would still not alleviate poverty. Then we'd just be stuck with stuff to consume and no tools and means for production.

[ajax]

You are rich compared to the worlds standards. Have you sold all you have and given to the poor? If not, why not?

I agree on tithes, nobody should be required to pay it as part of some requirement or worthiness standard if they don't have a surplus.

Again, you don’t know me but make assumptions based on your imagination. You have non idea if I have given all I had to the poor. You have no idea if I’m rich or poor & you trying to make this a personal attack on me is only because you don’t have any better argument. Shoot the messenger if you can’t handle the truth of the message.

Is this thread about disaffected members of my religion? No because I’m not a religious leader and I don’t demand corrupt tithes from members. This topic is about what might be the reason for members disaffecting or becoming active again. It’s about the lds/mormon church - not about me.

Don't be so triggered. I'm guessing you live in the US, which by default makes you the top 1% of the population of the world, which makes you rich. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[ajax]

You can't fix the world, you can only fix your own backyard - or try. Focus there. And don't give money to an organization you feel are distributing it wrong.

[harakim]

People would be flocking to the church as they did to Christ.

Well, the poor will flock to the church until the money dwindles, then they'll go back to Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. The funny thing about Christ's ministry is that he didn't cure poverty, not even close. The widow offered her mite and went home poor still. And it's not like Christ didn't notice her, He just didn't fill her pockets with Gold, which is something He could've made happen.

And just in case you need a reminder- the church has a huge welfare program. The church programs feed thousands every single day.

The economics of Joseph in Egypt's time is an interesting study. The poor became even poorer as they traded all they had for some corn. Joseph could've just given them the corn for crying out loud. Well, I guess he gave his own family quite a little fortune. Anyway, he could've fed the poor without asking them for everything they own. The money failed so he took everyone's cattle, flocks and herds in exchange for some bread. Then He told them to give him their land for some bread.

Like father, like son.

[shadow]

And don't give money to an organization you feel are distributing it wrong.

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[ajax]

[Thinker]

If all wealth were sold and distributed evenly through all the world, it would still not alleviate poverty. Then we'd just be stuck with stuff to consume and no tools and means for production.

That’s simple-minded and not giving this much thought or consideration. If thought and research went into figuring out what is needed where - BEFORE trying to help - the help would be more relevant. Why are you assuming that your premature conclusion is the only way to go? Christ didn’t comand in every detail - although he gives specific ideas of how to help those in need in the parable of the sheep & goats. Use your brain. You don’t just sell and toss coins to the poor. Remember the good Samaritan didn’t toss coins but figured out what was needed, did what he could and organized for others to help.

Each area of extreme poverty has unique challenges that cannot be met with such simple-mindedness. E.g: some countries’ challenges are more geographic (landlocked - less access to transporting) - while others have been subject to war or natural disasters. Clean water is something many don’t have - and as a result many get sick, can’t work etc. I believe strongly in education and helping become self-sufficient. Yet I realize, some people in some parts of our world are in such bad conditions that they cannot get up even on the lowest economic ladder rung, without help. When you see people in conditions like that, it stays with you - and makes you want to help however you can. In that sense, I wish more members would see such poverty for themselves. Maybe then they’d care more.

[ajax]

Obviously. What I said above wasn’t meant to be a treatise.

However money distribution is the least effective way to reduce poverty. Increased capital and investment is the best. Which requires saving.

Nothing more simple-minded than telling “the rich”, however that is defined, to sell all they have and give to the poor. So maybe that “command” wasn’t general, but specific to that person at that time.

[JK4Woods]

If the church actually gave to the poor as Christ asked the rich to and did and taught what Christ did and taught, they would be politically incorrect and hated - and not as successful financially but more successful spiritually. People would be flocking to the church as they did to Christ.

You don’t consider all the Bishops Storehouses that are giving out free groceries to those in need, as “giving to the poor”? How about the weekly checks a bishop writes to help someone in his ward make their mortgage that month?

$35 Billion invested in the stock market by Bonneville and it’s subsidiary holdings.

There are many (most actually) NGO’s working in the 3rd World who take donations, grants and gifts, and who only manage to get 10% of the total revenue into the field to effect change. The other 90% is overhead for staff and perpetual fundraising.

Every startup group who wants to do good, has altruistic goals and a vision. Within three years bureaucracy takes hold and less actual help goes to the poor, and full time well paid staffers have nice jobs and 401k’s.

Bonified Mother Teresa’s are few and far between.

[shadow]

• “Go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and GIVE TO THE POOR, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.” - Mari 10:21

Have you done this? Have you sold whatsoever you have and given the proceeds to the poor? How has that worked for you? How do your kids handle it? Which viaduct do you live under? I ask only so I can be of help

[Thinker]

Shadow, I already responded to that strawman - this would be the 3rd time.

[Teancum]

So I see a few thoughts have popped up on specifics since the OP.

Here are my thoughts:

A disaffected person really has the spirit of the devil.

Okay, bring out the stones, the tomatoes, and start casting them at me.

What is the spirit of the devil you ask? Well, what was it that the devil wanted? He wanted to be in charge, to do it his way, to be god, to have everyone worship him, to force others to his will. Why do so many want The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to change things in and about the Church to align with how they would like? Because they are unwilling to be led, to be redeemed, to have their hearts changed, to accept God the Father and His Son as The Only Way. They want it their way. The same attitude filled some at the time of Jesus and they prized the value of money and what it could do to help the poor (and thus set themselves up as a helper of the poor) rather than prize the Good because of its Goodness. Why did Jesus tell the rich young man to sell ALL he had and give to the poor? Certainly not for the poor's sake because he had also said that "the poor ye have always with you", no it was, in my opinion, to help the young man develop a humble, freely giving, and receptive attitude and character. That humble and receptive character is critical to have if you want to live with our Father and His Son, for don't we all receive everything from a giving Father? To be critical, bitter, looking for faults, eagerly pointing them out, and refusing to be corrected is exactly what the devil does and is.

So, my forum friends, which attitude do you want to have before God?

No, disaffected members would not return unless they receive a change of heart. Notice I said receive. For God WILL NOT FORCE anyone to do anything, or be anything, or choose anything. But if one seeks, then He will respond accordingly.

[Thinker]

Yeah it does seem when people love evil more than GOoD, they are not repentant, want the attention - to be adored etc...

• Dallin Oaks: “The church doesn't "seek apologies," he said, "and we don't give them."
  
  “Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the prophets, seers, revelators’ of the church, is cultivating the spirit of apostacy...
  ...When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan–it is God’s Plan.” - Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945
  Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945

Imagine if the anti-free-speech we experience in church were in this country. We’d be under tyranny. Free speech - including criticism - is essential to hold leaders accountable and prevent them from leading people in the wrong way. Christ called out religious leaders and others for using the temple to make money and other grievances - and he was also punished as many others have for speaking evil of religious leaders.

[Michelle]

Shadow and Vision,
I know our church leaders do some good for those in need - but compared to what Christ would give and asked those who can, to give - it’s like tossing pennies while hoarding riches and bathing in luxury. Our church is rich with resources - imagine how much good we could do if there was research to figure out needs and most effective solutions... and all missionary work was humanitarian work! Having visited some very poor areas of this world, I feel the need to speak for those who have no voice - those who tithes are intended for. Having studied this out and prayed, I’ve repeatedly felt the Spirit about this.

I know that members locally - offer an awesome sense of community by putting spirituality into action - serving one another. This is huge - and I do believe is what Christ would want.

It’s not all or nothing. Again my motto: Take the best, leave the rest.

How do you know and where is your evidence that Christ would do differently?

I’ve explained this before but will again - it’s good to become familiar with Christ’s teachings...
To the rich, Christ said:

• “Go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and GIVE TO THE POOR, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.” - Mari 10:21

All gifts are given by God to love and benefit one another. Christ noted how hard it is for rich hoarders to give up their false god of wealth:

• “And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” - Matthew 19:24

• “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
  This is the first and great commandment.
  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” - Matthew 22:37-40

Tithes belong to God, and how do we love God? By loving those in need...

• “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
  
  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
  Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
  Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
  
  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
  I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” - Matthew 25:31-46

Thank you. I am well acquainted with Christ's own words. These are great scriptures.

You keep taking one quote out of context by President Oaks and using it (and a few other choice quotes and images.) The reality is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does help the poor. We receive word of it directly from those the Church has helped. We receive word of it through other relief organizations that the Church donates to. We receive word of it through the Church, sometimes, through articles. (Though the Church is in a catch-22. If they report what they do with the money to help, people say they are looking for praise and quote "But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth." If they don't toot their own horn, they are accused of being greedy.)

All that aside, I agree that as individuals, we do need to live simply and share freely according to the Spirit. I know a good number of people who live in this manner and I strive to do so myself. I feel confident that President Nelson in particular sees this as an important goal and is moving the Church in a direction that will cut out a lot of waste and allocate resources to the needs the Lord prioritizes better.

[tdj]

Yeah it does seem when people love evil more than GOoD, they are not repentant, want the attention - to be adored etc...

• Dallin Oaks: “The church doesn't "seek apologies," he said, "and we don't give them."
  
  “Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the prophets, seers, revelators’ of the church, is cultivating the spirit of apostacy...
  ...When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan–it is God’s Plan.” - Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945
  Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945

Imagine if the anti-free-speech we experience in church were in this country. We’d be under tyranny. Free speech - including criticism - is essential to hold leaders accountable and prevent them from leading people in the wrong way. Christ called out religious leaders and others for using the temple to make money and other grievances - and he was also punished as many others have for speaking evil of religious leaders.

Interesting point and it's got me thinking that the whole time our family has been members, not once has anyone asked us if theres anything about the church we dont like or approve of.
It's like it's all wine and roses. In the beginning of our membership I sort of felt that way, but I've matured enough to see the more darker aspects that no one seems to want to confront or talk about. Unless it's about pornography and even then it seems as though the only ones making an issue of it are the women. I don't hear much from men on the subject.

[Thinker]

Yeah it does seem when people love evil more than GOoD, they are not repentant, want the attention - to be adored etc...

• Dallin Oaks: “The church doesn't "seek apologies," he said, "and we don't give them."
  
  “Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the prophets, seers, revelators’ of the church, is cultivating the spirit of apostacy...
  ...When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan–it is God’s Plan.” - Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945
  Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945

Imagine if the anti-free-speech we experience in church were in this country. We’d be under tyranny. Free speech - including criticism - is essential to hold leaders accountable and prevent them from leading people in the wrong way. Christ called out religious leaders and others for using the temple to make money and other grievances - and he was also punished as many others have for speaking evil of religious leaders.

Interesting point and it's got me thinking that the whole time our family has been members, not once has anyone asked us if theres anything about the church we dont like or approve of.
It's like it's all wine and roses. In the beginning of our membership I sort of felt that way, but I've matured enough to see the more darker aspects that no one seems to want to confront or talk about. Unless it's about pornography and even then it seems as though the only ones making an issue of it are the women. I don't hear much from men on the subject.

Interesting that you bring that up. I have heard of women divorcing their husbands over porn. Some cases - like addiction - it may be called for, but generally I see the overreaction as worse than the problem. I believe that many in our church have dysfunctional views of sex, besides other dysfunction (Utah had the most mental illnesses of all 50 states).

There are various issues people may have with the church, but to me, most are irrelevant (eg: his-story which doesn’t affect anyone now). However there are 2 issues that hurt people now: how finances are handled and cognitive distortions taught (which contribute to depression, anxiety etc).

Yet, I don’t want to suggest the church is all bad. That’s polarized thinking distortion. The church also offers an amazing sense of community and many good values and standards to encourage us to be better people.

[I AM]

20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another,
wherefore the world lieth in sin.
D&C 49

D&C 105

1 Verily I say unto you who have assembled yourselves together that you may learn my will concerning the redemption of mine afflicted people—

2 Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.

3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;

4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;

5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.

Moses 7

18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.