The Blessings and Rights of the Fathers

[marc]

Beside the blessing of knowledge, the blessing of priesthood was given to the fathers. I shared my thoughts on that in this topic:

Oath and Covenant of the priesthood.

In a nutshell, I define priesthood as the association of priests after the Order (Order being the association or social system) of the Son of God.

[cab]

I appreciate your comments and mostly agree with them, although I think you are combining a few different steps that should not be combined as I think they are sequential, but basically good comments.
If you were asking the question of "how do I know it has occurred", I would respond when we show the fruits of that transformation. What are the fruits of that transformation? That is the big take home. Everyone wants to have the second comforter, and receive the blessings that supposedly accompany that visit. But, until we do what the prophets you mentioned above have done, go out and proclaim the word, cry repentance, and follow the Lord into whatever He will lead us into with patience and virtue, we are not prepared to receive the blessings of that comforter. We are only complete enough to receive the full blessings of that second comforter when we have brought others to Christ as did Abraham, Enos, and endured through all opposition, etc.

Well, what I basically meant to say is exactly what marc said... We become children of God, when we are born of God (aka spiritually begotten of God). I made no mention of the 2nd comforter... Yes, many of those people I mentioned, went on later to receive the 2nd comforter... But that is not what I was saying... I was merely speaking of the gate of the baptism of fire and gift of the Holy Ghost and accompanying mighty change of heart that must be received to begin (or maybe more accurately stated, "be reconciled to") our real journey on the covenant pathway and our callings "after the order of the Son of God".

You then spoke of the fruits of this transformation... Unfortunately here is where I fear the vast majority of the church is severely lacking today, and we don't even know it. Why don't we know? Because we are suckling babes, milk fed, and have an incomplete, watered down, mingled understanding of the doctrine of Christ. I fear we've lulled OURSELVES away into carnal security thinking all is well as long as we "stick with the mainstream of the church" or "stay on old ship Zion"... Sadly, this is not enough, and our lack of spiritual fruit as a people prove it!

Here are just a few scriptures showing the signs that follow those who have been born again. Again, this is simply after actually receiving the Holy Ghost - not the 2nd comforter.... Can anyone honestly say these fruits are routinely present among our membership???

Mormon 9: 20-21, 24-25
D&C 84:64-72
Alma 36:26
Mosiah 5:2-3
Moroni 7:36-39
Acts 2: 1-4, 17-18

[Rand]

I appreciate your comments and mostly agree with them, although I think you are combining a few different steps that should not be combined as I think they are sequential, but basically good comments.
If you were asking the question of "how do I know it has occurred", I would respond when we show the fruits of that transformation. What are the fruits of that transformation? That is the big take home. Everyone wants to have the second comforter, and receive the blessings that supposedly accompany that visit. But, until we do what the prophets you mentioned above have done, go out and proclaim the word, cry repentance, and follow the Lord into whatever He will lead us into with patience and virtue, we are not prepared to receive the blessings of that comforter. We are only complete enough to receive the full blessings of that second comforter when we have brought others to Christ as did Abraham, Enos, and endured through all opposition, etc.

Well, what I basically meant to say is exactly what marc said... We become children of God, when we are born of God (aka spiritually begotten of God). I made no mention of the 2nd comforter... Yes, many of those people I mentioned, went on later to receive the 2nd comforter... But that is not what I was saying... I was merely speaking of the gate of the baptism of fire and gift of the Holy Ghost and accompanying mighty change of heart that must be received to begin (or maybe more accurately stated, "be reconciled to") our real journey on the covenant pathway and our callings "after the order of the Son of God".

You then spoke of the fruits of this transformation... Unfortunately here is where I fear the vast majority of the church is severely lacking today, and we don't even know it. Why don't we know? Because we are suckling babes, milk fed, and have an incomplete, watered down, mingled understanding of the doctrine of Christ. I fear we've lulled OURSELVES away into carnal security thinking all is well as long as we "stick with the mainstream of the church" or "stay on old ship Zion"... Sadly, this is not enough, and our lack of spiritual fruit as a people prove it!

Here are just a few scriptures showing the signs that follow those who have been born again. Again, this is simply after actually receiving the Holy Ghost - not the 2nd comforter.... Can anyone honestly say these fruits are routinely present among our membership???

Mormon 9: 20-21, 24-25
D&C 84:64-72
Alma 36:26
Mosiah 5:2-3
Moroni 7:36-39
Acts 2: 1-4, 17-18

Those are good and thank you for clarification.

Pertaining to the original question of the blessings of the fathers: The Fruits that I see begin with these: Enos 1:19 And now it came to pass that I, Enos, went about among the people of Nephi, prophesying of things to come, and testifying of the things which I had heard and seen.

Mosiah 27:32 And now it came to pass that Alma began from this time forward to teach the people, and those who were with Alma at the time the angel appeared unto them, traveling round about through all the land, publishing to all the people the things which they had heard and seen, and preaching the word of God in much tribulation, being greatly persecuted by those who were unbelievers, being smitten by many of them.

33 But notwithstanding all this, they did impart much consolation to the church, confirming their faith, and exhorting them with long-suffering and much travail to keep the commandments of God.

34 And four of them were the sons of Mosiah; and their names were Ammon, and Aaron, and Omner, and Himni; these were the names of the sons of Mosiah.

35 And they traveled throughout all the land of Zarahemla, and among all the people who were under the reign of king Mosiah, zealously striving to repair all the injuries which they had done to the church, confessing all their sins, and publishing all the things which they had seen, and explaining the prophecies and the scriptures to all who desired to hear them.

36 And thus they were instruments in the hands of God in bringing many to the knowledge of the truth, yea, to the knowledge of their Redeemer."
And I could go on... but the first fruits that precede that kind of gifts if the gifts are going to lead you to eternal life, are that you enjoy this experience: All 26: 2 And now, I ask, what great blessings has he bestowed upon us? Can ye tell?

3 Behold, I answer for you; for our brethren, the Lamanites, were in darkness, yea, even in the darkest abyss, but behold, how many of them are brought to behold the marvelous light of God! And this is the blessing which hath been bestowed upon us, that we have been made instruments in the hands of God to bring about this great work.

4 Behold, thousands of them do rejoice, and have been brought into the fold of God.

5 Behold, the field was ripe, and blessed are ye, for ye did thrust in the sickle, and did reap with your might, yea, all the day long did ye labor; and behold the number of your sheaves! And they shall be gathered into the garners, that they are not wasted."

This, a proceed of the application of Charity are where the real gifts come from. The others are potent, but do not lead to eternal life, at least according to Paul: 1 For 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing."

First things first. Once you have reaped a harvest, filled the garners with sheaves, and then continue on in serving, building God's kingdom, and there is need, these gifts come.

[cab]

I appreciate your comments and mostly agree with them, although I think you are combining a few different steps that should not be combined as I think they are sequential, but basically good comments.
If you were asking the question of "how do I know it has occurred", I would respond when we show the fruits of that transformation. What are the fruits of that transformation? That is the big take home. Everyone wants to have the second comforter, and receive the blessings that supposedly accompany that visit. But, until we do what the prophets you mentioned above have done, go out and proclaim the word, cry repentance, and follow the Lord into whatever He will lead us into with patience and virtue, we are not prepared to receive the blessings of that comforter. We are only complete enough to receive the full blessings of that second comforter when we have brought others to Christ as did Abraham, Enos, and endured through all opposition, etc.

Well, what I basically meant to say is exactly what marc said... We become children of God, when we are born of God (aka spiritually begotten of God). I made no mention of the 2nd comforter... Yes, many of those people I mentioned, went on later to receive the 2nd comforter... But that is not what I was saying... I was merely speaking of the gate of the baptism of fire and gift of the Holy Ghost and accompanying mighty change of heart that must be received to begin (or maybe more accurately stated, "be reconciled to") our real journey on the covenant pathway and our callings "after the order of the Son of God".

You then spoke of the fruits of this transformation... Unfortunately here is where I fear the vast majority of the church is severely lacking today, and we don't even know it. Why don't we know? Because we are suckling babes, milk fed, and have an incomplete, watered down, mingled understanding of the doctrine of Christ. I fear we've lulled OURSELVES away into carnal security thinking all is well as long as we "stick with the mainstream of the church" or "stay on old ship Zion"... Sadly, this is not enough, and our lack of spiritual fruit as a people prove it!

Here are just a few scriptures showing the signs that follow those who have been born again. Again, this is simply after actually receiving the Holy Ghost - not the 2nd comforter.... Can anyone honestly say these fruits are routinely present among our membership???

Mormon 9: 20-21, 24-25
D&C 84:64-72
Alma 36:26
Mosiah 5:2-3
Moroni 7:36-39
Acts 2: 1-4, 17-18

Those are good and thank you for clarification.

Pertaining to the original question of the blessings of the fathers: The Fruits that I see begin with these: Enos 1:19 And now it came to pass that I, Enos, went about among the people of Nephi, prophesying of things to come, and testifying of the things which I had heard and seen.

Mosiah 27:32 And now it came to pass that Alma began from this time forward to teach the people, and those who were with Alma at the time the angel appeared unto them, traveling round about through all the land, publishing to all the people the things which they had heard and seen, and preaching the word of God in much tribulation, being greatly persecuted by those who were unbelievers, being smitten by many of them.

33 But notwithstanding all this, they did impart much consolation to the church, confirming their faith, and exhorting them with long-suffering and much travail to keep the commandments of God.

34 And four of them were the sons of Mosiah; and their names were Ammon, and Aaron, and Omner, and Himni; these were the names of the sons of Mosiah.

35 And they traveled throughout all the land of Zarahemla, and among all the people who were under the reign of king Mosiah, zealously striving to repair all the injuries which they had done to the church, confessing all their sins, and publishing all the things which they had seen, and explaining the prophecies and the scriptures to all who desired to hear them.

36 And thus they were instruments in the hands of God in bringing many to the knowledge of the truth, yea, to the knowledge of their Redeemer."
And I could go on... but the first fruits that precede that kind of gifts if the gifts are going to lead you to eternal life, are that you enjoy this experience: All 26: 2 And now, I ask, what great blessings has he bestowed upon us? Can ye tell?

3 Behold, I answer for you; for our brethren, the Lamanites, were in darkness, yea, even in the darkest abyss, but behold, how many of them are brought to behold the marvelous light of God! And this is the blessing which hath been bestowed upon us, that we have been made instruments in the hands of God to bring about this great work.

4 Behold, thousands of them do rejoice, and have been brought into the fold of God.

5 Behold, the field was ripe, and blessed are ye, for ye did thrust in the sickle, and did reap with your might, yea, all the day long did ye labor; and behold the number of your sheaves! And they shall be gathered into the garners, that they are not wasted."

This, a proceed of the application of Charity are where the real gifts come from. The others are potent, but do not lead to eternal life, at least according to Paul: 1 For 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing."

First things first. Once you have reaped a harvest, filled the garners with sheaves, and then continue on in serving, building God's kingdom, and there is need, these gifts come.

You are right. First things first. We must first obtain "his word". This happens when we fully submit to him, repent, and are begotten spiritually through the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And then, and only then, are we are commissioned to declare his word in power and truth. Again, our problem, generally, is that we are declaring what we deem to be the word, before actually receiving it.

D&C 11
21 Seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word, and then shall your tongue be loosed; then, if you desire, you shall have my Spirit and my word, yea, the power of God unto the convincing of men.

We obtain his word by sincere and true repentance and receiving the word of Christ through the Holy Ghost.

2 Nephi 32
2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

Once receiving the fiery baptism of the Holy Ghost, then we are new creatures, with new hearts, and must endure to the end, feasting on the words of Christ (which words are now written upon our hearts through the Holy Ghost), follow their commands, and declare his word, loving God and all men...

[Rand]

I appreciate your comments and mostly agree with them, although I think you are combining a few different steps that should not be combined as I think they are sequential, but basically good comments.
If you were asking the question of "how do I know it has occurred", I would respond when we show the fruits of that transformation. What are the fruits of that transformation? That is the big take home. Everyone wants to have the second comforter, and receive the blessings that supposedly accompany that visit. But, until we do what the prophets you mentioned above have done, go out and proclaim the word, cry repentance, and follow the Lord into whatever He will lead us into with patience and virtue, we are not prepared to receive the blessings of that comforter. We are only complete enough to receive the full blessings of that second comforter when we have brought others to Christ as did Abraham, Enos, and endured through all opposition, etc.

Well, what I basically meant to say is exactly what marc said... We become children of God, when we are born of God (aka spiritually begotten of God). I made no mention of the 2nd comforter... Yes, many of those people I mentioned, went on later to receive the 2nd comforter... But that is not what I was saying... I was merely speaking of the gate of the baptism of fire and gift of the Holy Ghost and accompanying mighty change of heart that must be received to begin (or maybe more accurately stated, "be reconciled to") our real journey on the covenant pathway and our callings "after the order of the Son of God".

You then spoke of the fruits of this transformation... Unfortunately here is where I fear the vast majority of the church is severely lacking today, and we don't even know it. Why don't we know? Because we are suckling babes, milk fed, and have an incomplete, watered down, mingled understanding of the doctrine of Christ. I fear we've lulled OURSELVES away into carnal security thinking all is well as long as we "stick with the mainstream of the church" or "stay on old ship Zion"... Sadly, this is not enough, and our lack of spiritual fruit as a people prove it!

Here are just a few scriptures showing the signs that follow those who have been born again. Again, this is simply after actually receiving the Holy Ghost - not the 2nd comforter.... Can anyone honestly say these fruits are routinely present among our membership???

Mormon 9: 20-21, 24-25
D&C 84:64-72
Alma 36:26
Mosiah 5:2-3
Moroni 7:36-39
Acts 2: 1-4, 17-18

Those are good and thank you for clarification.

Pertaining to the original question of the blessings of the fathers: The Fruits that I see begin with these: Enos 1:19 And now it came to pass that I, Enos, went about among the people of Nephi, prophesying of things to come, and testifying of the things which I had heard and seen.

Mosiah 27:32 And now it came to pass that Alma began from this time forward to teach the people, and those who were with Alma at the time the angel appeared unto them, traveling round about through all the land, publishing to all the people the things which they had heard and seen, and preaching the word of God in much tribulation, being greatly persecuted by those who were unbelievers, being smitten by many of them.

33 But notwithstanding all this, they did impart much consolation to the church, confirming their faith, and exhorting them with long-suffering and much travail to keep the commandments of God.

34 And four of them were the sons of Mosiah; and their names were Ammon, and Aaron, and Omner, and Himni; these were the names of the sons of Mosiah.

35 And they traveled throughout all the land of Zarahemla, and among all the people who were under the reign of king Mosiah, zealously striving to repair all the injuries which they had done to the church, confessing all their sins, and publishing all the things which they had seen, and explaining the prophecies and the scriptures to all who desired to hear them.

36 And thus they were instruments in the hands of God in bringing many to the knowledge of the truth, yea, to the knowledge of their Redeemer."
And I could go on... but the first fruits that precede that kind of gifts if the gifts are going to lead you to eternal life, are that you enjoy this experience: All 26: 2 And now, I ask, what great blessings has he bestowed upon us? Can ye tell?

3 Behold, I answer for you; for our brethren, the Lamanites, were in darkness, yea, even in the darkest abyss, but behold, how many of them are brought to behold the marvelous light of God! And this is the blessing which hath been bestowed upon us, that we have been made instruments in the hands of God to bring about this great work.

4 Behold, thousands of them do rejoice, and have been brought into the fold of God.

5 Behold, the field was ripe, and blessed are ye, for ye did thrust in the sickle, and did reap with your might, yea, all the day long did ye labor; and behold the number of your sheaves! And they shall be gathered into the garners, that they are not wasted."

This, a proceed of the application of Charity are where the real gifts come from. The others are potent, but do not lead to eternal life, at least according to Paul: 1 For 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing."

First things first. Once you have reaped a harvest, filled the garners with sheaves, and then continue on in serving, building God's kingdom, and there is need, these gifts come.

You are right. First things first. We must first obtain "his word". This happens when we fully submit to him, repent, and are begotten spiritually through the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And then, and only then, are we are commissioned to declare his word in power and truth. Again, our problem, generally, is that we are declaring what we deem to be the word, before actually receiving it.

D&C 11
21 Seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word, and then shall your tongue be loosed; then, if you desire, you shall have my Spirit and my word, yea, the power of God unto the convincing of men.

We obtain his word by sincere and true repentance and receiving the word of Christ through the Holy Ghost.

2 Nephi 32
2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

Once receiving the fiery baptism of the Holy Ghost, then we are new creatures, with new hearts, and must endure to the end, feasting on the words of Christ (which words are now written upon our hearts through the Holy Ghost), follow their commands, and declare his word, loving God and all men...

I just read this and thought it pertinent to the discussion. in 3 Ne, the Lord tells the three Nephites: "More blessed are ye...and then explaining that statement: "7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.

10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one;

11 And the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and the Father giveth the Holy Ghost unto the children of men, because of me."
But to the other disciples who desired to gain eternal life, he said: "Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are seventy and two years old ye shall come unto me in my kingdom; and with me ye shall find rest."

The result of bringing others to Him in His Kingdom, brings a fulness of joy, while the desire to bring yourself to Him, brings you rest.
One is the work of a son, the other is the work of a father. So, the blessings of the Fathers that Abraham sought, were those blessings accompanying the bringing of others to Him in His Kingdom, or the blessings of providing the ordinances for others, and of bringing others with them, in their families into the Son's family, into the Kingdom of the Father or Fathers.

[Alaris]

and the Father giveth the Holy Ghost unto the children of men, because of me."