The True Doctrine of th Family

[Zathura]

I'll be shocked if he responds to this. He doesn't respond to valid rebuttals. There will always be some comment about crushing pearls and then *crickets*

It could just be me, but his opinions and “doctrines” sound a lot like what Warren Jeffs and his ilk preach. I could be wrong.

You may disagree, but To me, his opinions and “doctrines” sound like Brigham Young and those who were influenced by his teachings over the next 100 years.

Whatever good BY did, I still believe his teachings(or teachings that were influenced by him) on polygamy, mans place in the home, women “submitting”, sex etc. were and are damaging.

Don't get it twisted...

BY is not the one who came up with "man is head of house". This is biblical doctrine. Man is the head.

IMO
You only think this way because our society has brainwashed men/women to leave their place.


12As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

13The LORD standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people.

14The LORD will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.

15What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

16Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

17Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.

18In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, 19The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, 20The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings, 21The rings, and nose jewels, 22The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins, 23The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.

24And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

25Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.

26And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground.

I didn’t say the man isn’t the head of the household, but the way this has been taught has created Unrighteous Dominion in way too many households . As D&C 121 teaches, MOST MEN engage in unrighteous dominion as soon as they suppose they have any authority and what does God say to that? Amen to their priesthood. They have no power. They go on the rest of their lives thinking they have power and control their wives and children because “I am the father, I am the husband” and they justify their forceful actions with the priesthood .

There is a myriad of issues created by this. Reduced power held by the men in the church. Women who are abused emotionally , even if it’s just to a small degree. Children who are raised to despise the Gospel their Father taught them who quickly leave the church.

Women should not be treated as a lesser member of marriage. The Father should not make a decision independent of the Mothers wish and justify it with “I am the Man of the House” . Yet this is exactly what happens because of the manner in which these things were taught over the years.

[EmmaLee]

I love bringing out people’s true colors!

So, you are admitting you are just a troll?

I'm 99.9% sure Benaishtart is none other than the poster formerly known as mcgridle1, who was the poster formerly known as yjacket - both of whom were banned for the exact behavior Benaishtart is exhibiting here and on other threads. Some people never learn. And quite ironic that he then boasts of bringing out people's "true" colors, when his own true colors are clearly on display for all to see (regardless of what names he posts under).

No way he is mcgridle1... I would bet you my favorite gun (SIG Sauer P226) that he is not.

You're on.

[mtm411]

That is interesting coming from Elder Cook, since he only has 3 kids. Now, I don't think that apostles are immune from infertility.

I very much agree with Emmalee that we not judge others in our wards about this. My grandparents were only able to have one.

With abortion and single mothers keeping their babies, adoption has become nearly impossible and prohibitively expensive. The church used to subsidize it and couples "only" paid $10,000 through LDS family services, but they shut down operations. Even adopting through foster care is hard. They try and keep parental rights going until there is no other choice, so the kids are bounced around and traumatized by the time they are able to be adopted. Bless those who take on this challenge, but it is not an easy choice.

I wonder if the church should provide grants for fertility services?

https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostl ... s?lang=eng

Family Choices
Family choices follow a similar pattern. In the Father’s plan, the role of families is clearly set forth. In “The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” we read:

The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.20

It is fairly common in today’s world, in another paradigm shift, to trumpet alternative choices in a positive way that are in direct conflict with this plan and that are unfavorable to marriage and family. Let me mention a few.

The choice for both women and men to put education and careers ahead of marriage and family.
The choice to purposefully have no or few children or to terminate pregnancy when it is inconvenient.21
The choice to engage in immoral conduct as a substitute for the sacred institution of marriage.
The adversary has targeted women and has painted motherhood as a dead-end road of drudgery. He has targeted men and has painted fatherhood as unimportant and fidelity as “old-school.” The alienation and objectification of pornography is an example of immoral conduct being substituted for the sacred institution of marriage. It underscores the horrific turning from truth and righteousness that the adversary seeks.

Inappropriate alternative choices are painted as appropriate in helping to achieve the worldly goals of freedom and equality. As a result of such choices, the average number of children a woman will bear in her lifetime is declining dramatically. It is estimated that 46 percent of the world lives in countries in which the fertility rate is below 2.1 children—the rate necessary for the population to remain stable. Most European and Asian countries are below this level. Italy and Japan are both at about 1.3 births. Japan is expected to decrease in population from 120 million to about 100 million by the year 2050.22

This worldwide decline in population has been described by some as the “demographic winter.”23 Many countries are not having enough children to replace the generation that is dying.

Let’s see if we can illustrate this problem here in the Marriott Center. Will all of you who are the oldest child in your family please stand and remain standing? In today’s world, in many of these countries, but not in the United States, most of the rest of you who are still seated would never have been born.

Thank you. Please be seated.

Now, everybody who is the third or later child in your family, please stand and remain standing. You would not have been born, even in the United States, if the current trends applied. Can you see why they call it the demographic winter?

Thank you. Please be seated.

Let me share one other reality that is of great concern to me. I had a sobering experience in Jerusalem last October. We visited the Children’s Memorial, which is part of the World Holocaust Remembrance Center. Elder Jeffrey R. Holland and I, together with two American Jewish leaders, laid a remembrance wreath. As you move through the Children’s Memorial, the first names of the children and their ages at death are announced one after another with a background of music that portrays this terrible atrocity. It is believed that more than one million Jewish children were killed during the Holocaust.24

As I experienced the museum, I was overcome with emotion and completely devastated. Standing outside to regain my composure, I reflected on the horror of the experience and suddenly realized that in the United States alone there are as many abortions every two years25 as the number of Jewish children killed in the Holocaust during the Second World War.

Now, as a lawyer, I am cognizant that the motives and intent of these two tragedies are entirely different. The Jewish children were killed because they were Jews, and there is no analogue to this in all history, but the intensity of my feeling was about the loss of children. Bringing children into the world is a sacred part of our Father in Heaven’s plan of happiness. We are so numbed and intimidated by the immensity of the practice of abortion that many of us have pushed it to the back of our minds and try to keep it out of our consciousness. Clearly the adversary is attacking the value of children on many levels.

Abortion needs to be approached very carefully. This is a problem that will probably not be solved by personal condemnation or judgmental accusations. Some have cautioned to not judge a ship—or men or women—without understanding the length of the voyage and the storms encountered.26 I might add, many who engage in this deplorable conduct do not have a testimony of the Savior or knowledge of the Father’s plan.

However, for those who believe we are accountable to God—and even for many of those not of our faith who are secular but pride themselves on being on the so-called “right side of history”—this has become a tragedy of monumental proportions. When you combine it with the demographic winter that we have just explored, it is a serious moral blot on our society.

President Spencer W. Kimball taught:

Supreme happiness in marriage is governed considerably by a primary factor—that of the bearing and rearing of children. . . . The Church cannot approve nor condone . . . measures which . . . greatly limit the family.27

With respect to the number and spacing of children, the health of the mother must be considered, and the decision should be made prayerfully by husbands and wives.28 Such decisions should never be judged by outsiders.29 Some faithful Saints are not able to have children or may not have the opportunity to marry. They will receive every blessing at the ultimate banquet of consequences.30

Nevertheless, Lucifer has supported abortion and convinced many people in a horrific paradigm shift that children represent lost opportunity and misery instead of joy and happiness.

As Latter-day Saints, we must be at the forefront of changing hearts and minds on the importance of children. The attacks on the family that I just described ultimately result in grief and misery.

The Lord has declared that His work and His glory is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”31 The plan is established through families. Every family member is important, and their roles are beautiful, glorious, and fulfilling.

The family proclamation could not be more clear about the consequences of choices inconsistent with the Father’s plan. It unequivocally proclaims:

We warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.32

This clearly sets forth the ultimate banquet of consequences and the cumulative impact of choices not in accordance with the Father’s plan of happiness.

In all marriages and in raising children there are challenges and sacrifices. But the rewards both in this life and in the eternities are breathtakingly beautiful. They emanate from a loving Father in Heaven.

[Michelle]

That is interesting coming from Elder Cook, since he only has 3 kids. Now, I don't think that apostles are immune from infertility.

I very much agree with Emmalee that we not judge others in our wards about this. My grandparents were only able to have one.

With abortion and single mothers keeping their babies, adoption has become nearly impossible and prohibitively expensive. The church used to subsidize it and couples "only" paid $10,000 through LDS family services, but they shut down operations. Even adopting through foster care is hard. They try and keep parental rights going until there is no other choice, so the kids are bounced around and traumatized by the time they are able to be adopted. Bless those who take on this challenge, but it is not an easy choice.

I wonder if the church should provide grants for fertility services?

https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostl ... s?lang=eng

Family Choices
Family choices follow a similar pattern. In the Father’s plan, the role of families is clearly set forth. In “The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” we read:

The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.20

It is fairly common in today’s world, in another paradigm shift, to trumpet alternative choices in a positive way that are in direct conflict with this plan and that are unfavorable to marriage and family. Let me mention a few.

The choice for both women and men to put education and careers ahead of marriage and family.
The choice to purposefully have no or few children or to terminate pregnancy when it is inconvenient.21
The choice to engage in immoral conduct as a substitute for the sacred institution of marriage.
The adversary has targeted women and has painted motherhood as a dead-end road of drudgery. He has targeted men and has painted fatherhood as unimportant and fidelity as “old-school.” The alienation and objectification of pornography is an example of immoral conduct being substituted for the sacred institution of marriage. It underscores the horrific turning from truth and righteousness that the adversary seeks.

Inappropriate alternative choices are painted as appropriate in helping to achieve the worldly goals of freedom and equality. As a result of such choices, the average number of children a woman will bear in her lifetime is declining dramatically. It is estimated that 46 percent of the world lives in countries in which the fertility rate is below 2.1 children—the rate necessary for the population to remain stable. Most European and Asian countries are below this level. Italy and Japan are both at about 1.3 births. Japan is expected to decrease in population from 120 million to about 100 million by the year 2050.22

This worldwide decline in population has been described by some as the “demographic winter.”23 Many countries are not having enough children to replace the generation that is dying.

Let’s see if we can illustrate this problem here in the Marriott Center. Will all of you who are the oldest child in your family please stand and remain standing? In today’s world, in many of these countries, but not in the United States, most of the rest of you who are still seated would never have been born.

Thank you. Please be seated.

Now, everybody who is the third or later child in your family, please stand and remain standing. You would not have been born, even in the United States, if the current trends applied. Can you see why they call it the demographic winter?

Thank you. Please be seated.

Let me share one other reality that is of great concern to me. I had a sobering experience in Jerusalem last October. We visited the Children’s Memorial, which is part of the World Holocaust Remembrance Center. Elder Jeffrey R. Holland and I, together with two American Jewish leaders, laid a remembrance wreath. As you move through the Children’s Memorial, the first names of the children and their ages at death are announced one after another with a background of music that portrays this terrible atrocity. It is believed that more than one million Jewish children were killed during the Holocaust.24

As I experienced the museum, I was overcome with emotion and completely devastated. Standing outside to regain my composure, I reflected on the horror of the experience and suddenly realized that in the United States alone there are as many abortions every two years25 as the number of Jewish children killed in the Holocaust during the Second World War.

Now, as a lawyer, I am cognizant that the motives and intent of these two tragedies are entirely different. The Jewish children were killed because they were Jews, and there is no analogue to this in all history, but the intensity of my feeling was about the loss of children. Bringing children into the world is a sacred part of our Father in Heaven’s plan of happiness. We are so numbed and intimidated by the immensity of the practice of abortion that many of us have pushed it to the back of our minds and try to keep it out of our consciousness. Clearly the adversary is attacking the value of children on many levels.

Abortion needs to be approached very carefully. This is a problem that will probably not be solved by personal condemnation or judgmental accusations. Some have cautioned to not judge a ship—or men or women—without understanding the length of the voyage and the storms encountered.26 I might add, many who engage in this deplorable conduct do not have a testimony of the Savior or knowledge of the Father’s plan.

However, for those who believe we are accountable to God—and even for many of those not of our faith who are secular but pride themselves on being on the so-called “right side of history”—this has become a tragedy of monumental proportions. When you combine it with the demographic winter that we have just explored, it is a serious moral blot on our society.

President Spencer W. Kimball taught:

Supreme happiness in marriage is governed considerably by a primary factor—that of the bearing and rearing of children. . . . The Church cannot approve nor condone . . . measures which . . . greatly limit the family.27

With respect to the number and spacing of children, the health of the mother must be considered, and the decision should be made prayerfully by husbands and wives.28 Such decisions should never be judged by outsiders.29 Some faithful Saints are not able to have children or may not have the opportunity to marry. They will receive every blessing at the ultimate banquet of consequences.30

Nevertheless, Lucifer has supported abortion and convinced many people in a horrific paradigm shift that children represent lost opportunity and misery instead of joy and happiness.

As Latter-day Saints, we must be at the forefront of changing hearts and minds on the importance of children. The attacks on the family that I just described ultimately result in grief and misery.

The Lord has declared that His work and His glory is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”31 The plan is established through families. Every family member is important, and their roles are beautiful, glorious, and fulfilling.

The family proclamation could not be more clear about the consequences of choices inconsistent with the Father’s plan. It unequivocally proclaims:

We warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.32

This clearly sets forth the ultimate banquet of consequences and the cumulative impact of choices not in accordance with the Father’s plan of happiness.

In all marriages and in raising children there are challenges and sacrifices. But the rewards both in this life and in the eternities are breathtakingly beautiful. They emanate from a loving Father in Heaven.

Why is preaching "multiply and replenish the earth" considered "judging others."

I have yet to see anyone on this thread or the others running right now, say that those who are infertile have sinned. That those who are unmarried and without children have sinned. That those who have legitimate health concerns have sinned.

Promoting truth is not the same as shaming.

One should not assumed they are being attacked just because their reality does not match the ideal.

[mtm411]

I think you may have misunderstood me. I don't think you were judging others, and I haven't seen a whole lot of judgement against others about this issue online. I, myself, think too many people are having tiny families by choice because of worldly influence. I do think we need to be careful, especially in real life when we don't know the story. I know some who have one or two, but suffered from infertility. I also know a few who have two, but really just want to be able to play and not have to worry about providing for more kids. It's a fine line to support the first couple, while also not encouraging the second couple.

I think the church should do more to encourage large families in those that are mentally and physically able to have them.

That is interesting coming from Elder Cook, since he only has 3 kids. Now, I don't think that apostles are immune from infertility.

I very much agree with Emmalee that we not judge others in our wards about this. My grandparents were only able to have one.

With abortion and single mothers keeping their babies, adoption has become nearly impossible and prohibitively expensive. The church used to subsidize it and couples "only" paid $10,000 through LDS family services, but they shut down operations. Even adopting through foster care is hard. They try and keep parental rights going until there is no other choice, so the kids are bounced around and traumatized by the time they are able to be adopted. Bless those who take on this challenge, but it is not an easy choice.

I wonder if the church should provide grants for fertility services?

https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostl ... s?lang=eng

Family Choices
Family choices follow a similar pattern. In the Father’s plan, the role of families is clearly set forth. In “The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” we read:

The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.20

It is fairly common in today’s world, in another paradigm shift, to trumpet alternative choices in a positive way that are in direct conflict with this plan and that are unfavorable to marriage and family. Let me mention a few.

The choice for both women and men to put education and careers ahead of marriage and family.
The choice to purposefully have no or few children or to terminate pregnancy when it is inconvenient.21
The choice to engage in immoral conduct as a substitute for the sacred institution of marriage.
The adversary has targeted women and has painted motherhood as a dead-end road of drudgery. He has targeted men and has painted fatherhood as unimportant and fidelity as “old-school.” The alienation and objectification of pornography is an example of immoral conduct being substituted for the sacred institution of marriage. It underscores the horrific turning from truth and righteousness that the adversary seeks.

Inappropriate alternative choices are painted as appropriate in helping to achieve the worldly goals of freedom and equality. As a result of such choices, the average number of children a woman will bear in her lifetime is declining dramatically. It is estimated that 46 percent of the world lives in countries in which the fertility rate is below 2.1 children—the rate necessary for the population to remain stable. Most European and Asian countries are below this level. Italy and Japan are both at about 1.3 births. Japan is expected to decrease in population from 120 million to about 100 million by the year 2050.22

This worldwide decline in population has been described by some as the “demographic winter.”23 Many countries are not having enough children to replace the generation that is dying.

Let’s see if we can illustrate this problem here in the Marriott Center. Will all of you who are the oldest child in your family please stand and remain standing? In today’s world, in many of these countries, but not in the United States, most of the rest of you who are still seated would never have been born.

Thank you. Please be seated.

Now, everybody who is the third or later child in your family, please stand and remain standing. You would not have been born, even in the United States, if the current trends applied. Can you see why they call it the demographic winter?

Thank you. Please be seated.

Let me share one other reality that is of great concern to me. I had a sobering experience in Jerusalem last October. We visited the Children’s Memorial, which is part of the World Holocaust Remembrance Center. Elder Jeffrey R. Holland and I, together with two American Jewish leaders, laid a remembrance wreath. As you move through the Children’s Memorial, the first names of the children and their ages at death are announced one after another with a background of music that portrays this terrible atrocity. It is believed that more than one million Jewish children were killed during the Holocaust.24

As I experienced the museum, I was overcome with emotion and completely devastated. Standing outside to regain my composure, I reflected on the horror of the experience and suddenly realized that in the United States alone there are as many abortions every two years25 as the number of Jewish children killed in the Holocaust during the Second World War.

Now, as a lawyer, I am cognizant that the motives and intent of these two tragedies are entirely different. The Jewish children were killed because they were Jews, and there is no analogue to this in all history, but the intensity of my feeling was about the loss of children. Bringing children into the world is a sacred part of our Father in Heaven’s plan of happiness. We are so numbed and intimidated by the immensity of the practice of abortion that many of us have pushed it to the back of our minds and try to keep it out of our consciousness. Clearly the adversary is attacking the value of children on many levels.

Abortion needs to be approached very carefully. This is a problem that will probably not be solved by personal condemnation or judgmental accusations. Some have cautioned to not judge a ship—or men or women—without understanding the length of the voyage and the storms encountered.26 I might add, many who engage in this deplorable conduct do not have a testimony of the Savior or knowledge of the Father’s plan.

However, for those who believe we are accountable to God—and even for many of those not of our faith who are secular but pride themselves on being on the so-called “right side of history”—this has become a tragedy of monumental proportions. When you combine it with the demographic winter that we have just explored, it is a serious moral blot on our society.

President Spencer W. Kimball taught:

Supreme happiness in marriage is governed considerably by a primary factor—that of the bearing and rearing of children. . . . The Church cannot approve nor condone . . . measures which . . . greatly limit the family.27

With respect to the number and spacing of children, the health of the mother must be considered, and the decision should be made prayerfully by husbands and wives.28 Such decisions should never be judged by outsiders.29 Some faithful Saints are not able to have children or may not have the opportunity to marry. They will receive every blessing at the ultimate banquet of consequences.30

Nevertheless, Lucifer has supported abortion and convinced many people in a horrific paradigm shift that children represent lost opportunity and misery instead of joy and happiness.

As Latter-day Saints, we must be at the forefront of changing hearts and minds on the importance of children. The attacks on the family that I just described ultimately result in grief and misery.

The Lord has declared that His work and His glory is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”31 The plan is established through families. Every family member is important, and their roles are beautiful, glorious, and fulfilling.

The family proclamation could not be more clear about the consequences of choices inconsistent with the Father’s plan. It unequivocally proclaims:

We warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.32

This clearly sets forth the ultimate banquet of consequences and the cumulative impact of choices not in accordance with the Father’s plan of happiness.

In all marriages and in raising children there are challenges and sacrifices. But the rewards both in this life and in the eternities are breathtakingly beautiful. They emanate from a loving Father in Heaven.

Why is preaching "multiply and replenish the earth" considered "judging others."

I have yet to see anyone on this thread or the others running right now, say that those who are infertile have sinned. That those who are unmarried and without children have sinned. That those who have legitimate health concerns have sinned.

Promoting truth is not the same as shaming.

One should not assumed they are being attacked just because their reality does not match the ideal.

[John Tavner]

I love bringing out people’s true colors!

So, you are admitting you are just a troll?

I'm 99.9% sure Benaishtart is none other than the poster formerly known as mcgridle1, who was the poster formerly known as yjacket - both of whom were banned for the exact behavior Benaishtart is exhibiting here and on other threads. Some people never learn. And quite ironic that he then boasts of bringing out people's "true" colors, when his own true colors are clearly on display for all to see (regardless of what names he posts under).

No way he is mcgridle1... I would bet you my favorite gun (SIG Sauer P226) that he is not.

I didn't know mcgridle1 was banned?

Nor did I... was mcgridle banned?

[EmmaLee]

One of the daughters of a very close friend of mine appears to be infertile. I'm also close to and friends with this young woman, as I've known her since she was born, and she grew up with my youngest son (they remain close friends to this day, as well) - so I am very well acquainted, first-hand, with her situation. She and her husband have been married for 4 years now. They've never used any type of birth control, as they both wanted a baby straight away. So, the years have past - no pregnancies, no babies. One year after they got married, they started going to infertility doctors. The husband was checked out - no problems, high sperm quantity and motility rate, etc. My friend was told she has massive amounts of tissue growing inside and outside of her uterus and it's likely she will never even conceive, let alone bear a child. She's always been very healthy, by the way - eats well, never been overweight, exercises daily, never drank/smoked/drugs, etc. The doctors (in two different cities) have told her she has about a 4% chance of ever conceiving, and zero chance that a baby could come to term. Needless to say, they were/are devastated. They would make awesome parents!

My friend and her husband have spent the last three years doing everything possible to conceive - they've tried all the procedures, treatments, shots, drugs, prayers, fasts, temple trips, supplicating, more procedures, treatments, shots, IVF several times, etc. etc. They have spent exorbitant amounts of money (and time, effort, tears) to try and conceive a child - all to no avail.

They went to Hawaii for 10 days last month. I wonder how many righteous latter-day saints assume that since they went on a fancy vacation, and they don't have any kids, it must mean that they don't want any kids (because one equals the other, obviously). Why would they assume such a thing? My friend and her husband are very private people - they do not broadcast their infertility on social media - they do not get up to the stand at church and blubber about it to the ward - they keep these things private - so the vast majority of people at church have no idea they are unable to conceive. If someone didn't know about their struggles, I wonder if this young couple would be harshly judged and condemned by any in our ward, or anyone here - because after all, you don't KNOW they are infertile. So while some may say they don't judge and condemn the infertile, you don't KNOW who is and who isn't infertile, hence, the danger in judging and condemning ANYONE for how many children they have or don't have.

The Lord knows all, sees all - our hearts and everything else - nobody is going to "get away with" anything. Thank goodness his opinion is the only one that matters, and he's the only one we'll have to answer to.

[EmmaLee]

P.S. They are now looking into adoption.

[sandman45]

If you remove procreation from sex you’ll reap sorrowful consequences.

Going by this, and your comments on the fertility thread, it is obvious that once your wife starts menopause, no more sex for you - none, zip, zero, zilch, nada - you will be refraining for the rest of your, hopefully, many decades long life.

That’s when he gets a second and third wife. To progress and increase his kingdom. ie eternal progression

[mtm411]

If you remove procreation from sex you’ll reap sorrowful consequences.

Going by this, and your comments on the fertility thread, it is obvious that once your wife starts menopause, no more sex for you - none, zip, zero, zilch, nada - you will be refraining for the rest of your, hopefully, many decades long life.

That’s when he gets a second and third wife. To progress and increase his kingdom. ie eternal progression

That's actually what they used to do. Not sure if you're joking. The husband would abandon his first wife to her children to take care of and marry a teen to start a new family. They used to say you couldn't have sex with a menopausal woman, or a pregnant one. The FLDS still believe this.

[Michelle]

One of the daughters of a very close friend of mine appears to be infertile. I'm also close to and friends with this young woman, as I've known her since she was born, and she grew up with my youngest son (they remain close friends to this day, as well) - so I am very well acquainted, first-hand, with her situation. She and her husband have been married for 4 years now. They've never used any type of birth control, as they both wanted a baby straight away. So, the years have past - no pregnancies, no babies. One year after they got married, they started going to infertility doctors. The husband was checked out - no problems, high sperm quantity and motility rate, etc. My friend was told she has massive amounts of tissue growing inside and outside of her uterus and it's likely she will never even conceive, let alone bear a child. She's always been very healthy, by the way - eats well, never been overweight, exercises daily, never drank/smoked/drugs, etc. The doctors (in two different cities) have told her she has about a 4% chance of ever conceiving, and zero chance that a baby could come to term. Needless to say, they were/are devastated. They would make awesome parents!

My friend and her husband have spent the last three years doing everything possible to conceive - they've tried all the procedures, treatments, shots, drugs, prayers, fasts, temple trips, supplicating, more procedures, treatments, shots, IVF several times, etc. etc. They have spent exorbitant amounts of money (and time, effort, tears) to try and conceive a child - all to no avail.

They went to Hawaii for 10 days last month. I wonder how many righteous latter-day saints assume that since they went on a fancy vacation, and they don't have any kids, it must mean that they don't want any kids (because one equals the other, obviously). Why would they assume such a thing? My friend and her husband are very private people - they do not broadcast their infertility on social media - they do not get up to the stand at church and blubber about it to the ward - they keep these things private - so the vast majority of people at church have no idea they are unable to conceive. If someone didn't know about their struggles, I wonder if this young couple would be harshly judged and condemned by any in our ward, or anyone here - because after all, you don't KNOW they are infertile. So while some may say they don't judge and condemn the infertile, you don't KNOW who is and who isn't infertile, hence, the danger in judging and condemning ANYONE for how many children they have or don't have.

The Lord knows all, sees all - our hearts and everything else - nobody is going to "get away with" anything. Thank goodness his opinion is the only one that matters, and he's the only one we'll have to answer to.

I don't think there is as much unrighteous judgement going on as you seem to think.

I never judge an individual, I can't possibly know their situation. I absolutely judge and share the downward trend. (I have shared this same sentiment for all the years I have shared demographics with regard to the gospel. You'll surely find it in numerous posts from me right here on LDSFF.)

Just as the brethren do, I, of course, make exception for those who cannot have children for whatever reason, but that never seems to be good enough. Once we have acknowledged the exceptions, it is right and appropriate to address and discuss the ideal. How else will we teach the next generation?

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... e?lang=eng

[EmmaLee]

If you remove procreation from sex you’ll reap sorrowful consequences.

Going by this, and your comments on the fertility thread, it is obvious that once your wife starts menopause, no more sex for you - none, zip, zero, zilch, nada - you will be refraining for the rest of your, hopefully, many decades long life.

That’s when he gets a second and third wife. To progress and increase his kingdom. ie eternal progression

I see. So you are saying Benaishtart is counting on polygamy to be reinstated by the Church, and made legal in the U.S. so that when his wife gets pregnant again, or when she starts menopause, he can continue to have sex. I'm not sure how old he and his wife are, but I have a feeling the Church better hurry up! Or maybe he will just go ahead and get another "wife" or ten without the Church's and government's blessing. They can go live in Colorado City or wherever those groups of Fundies live - having all the sex with as many broodmare's as he possibly can. Cool!

(Brian, there really needs to be a face-palm and/or shaking head emoji, please)

[Michelle]

If you remove procreation from sex you’ll reap sorrowful consequences.

Going by this, and your comments on the fertility thread, it is obvious that once your wife starts menopause, no more sex for you - none, zip, zero, zilch, nada - you will be refraining for the rest of your, hopefully, many decades long life.

That’s when he gets a second and third wife. To progress and increase his kingdom. ie eternal progression

I see. So you are saying Benaishtart is counting on polygamy to be reinstated by the Church, and made legal in the U.S. so that when his wife gets pregnant again, or when she starts menopause, he can continue to have sex. I'm not sure how old he and his wife are, but I have a feeling the Church better hurry up! (Brian, there really needs to be a face-palm and/or shaking head emoji, please)

You are being unkind. You are making assumptions about a forum members beliefs/hopes, and then continuing that line of thought, not even suggest by that member. How far will you carry this?

[Zathura]

Going by this, and your comments on the fertility thread, it is obvious that once your wife starts menopause, no more sex for you - none, zip, zero, zilch, nada - you will be refraining for the rest of your, hopefully, many decades long life.

That’s when he gets a second and third wife. To progress and increase his kingdom. ie eternal progression

I see. So you are saying Benaishtart is counting on polygamy to be reinstated by the Church, and made legal in the U.S. so that when his wife gets pregnant again, or when she starts menopause, he can continue to have sex. I'm not sure how old he and his wife are, but I have a feeling the Church better hurry up! (Brian, there really needs to be a face-palm and/or shaking head emoji, please)

You are being unkind. You are making assumptions about a forum members beliefs/hopes, and then continuing that line of thought, not even suggest by that member. How far will you carry this?

Michelle, you don't need to EXPLICITLY say something to say it. You can say something Implicitly and it's every bit as real as saying it explicitly . There is literally no other possible meaning behind what is behind said, no other possible interpretation that can be derived.

Person A: So if sex is only for creating children, that means that you cannot have sex if your wife cannot have children. Your wife cannot have children if she is pregnant or started menopause.

Person B: That's why you need more wives.

Given the context, the only possible meaning is that the man needs another wife once his first cannot have kids so that he can still have sex. Once she can't have kids he needs to go get another wife to keep having sex.

[EmmaLee]

If you remove procreation from sex you’ll reap sorrowful consequences.

Going by this, and your comments on the fertility thread, it is obvious that once your wife starts menopause, no more sex for you - none, zip, zero, zilch, nada - you will be refraining for the rest of your, hopefully, many decades long life.

That’s when he gets a second and third wife. To progress and increase his kingdom. ie eternal progression

That's actually what they used to do. Not sure if you're joking. The husband would abandon his first wife to her children to take care of and marry a teen to start a new family. They used to say you couldn't have sex with a menopausal woman, or a pregnant one. The FLDS still believe this.

This is without question, one of the most disgusting, revolting things someone could do. I just marvel that we're even having this conversation on a supposed LDS forum. Any man who thinks of his wife as nothing more than a uterus to be used by him should be Ichabod Crane'd, post haste. God should just toss a big asteroid at us at this point.

[EmmaLee]

Going by this, and your comments on the fertility thread, it is obvious that once your wife starts menopause, no more sex for you - none, zip, zero, zilch, nada - you will be refraining for the rest of your, hopefully, many decades long life.

That’s when he gets a second and third wife. To progress and increase his kingdom. ie eternal progression

I see. So you are saying Benaishtart is counting on polygamy to be reinstated by the Church, and made legal in the U.S. so that when his wife gets pregnant again, or when she starts menopause, he can continue to have sex. I'm not sure how old he and his wife are, but I have a feeling the Church better hurry up! (Brian, there really needs to be a face-palm and/or shaking head emoji, please)

You are being unkind. You are making assumptions about a forum members beliefs/hopes, and then continuing that line of thought, not even suggest by that member. How far will you carry this?

You accuse me of being "unkind" simply because we have disagreed on this thread, Michelle. Please, spare me the self-righteousness. If I had "thanked" or agreed with your comments on this thread, but I said the exact same thing above, you would not have called me "unkind". I have made no assumptions at all. I make my comments going by what people themselves have said - it's not hard to figure out.

[EmmaLee]

One of the daughters of a very close friend of mine appears to be infertile. I'm also close to and friends with this young woman, as I've known her since she was born, and she grew up with my youngest son (they remain close friends to this day, as well) - so I am very well acquainted, first-hand, with her situation. She and her husband have been married for 4 years now. They've never used any type of birth control, as they both wanted a baby straight away. So, the years have past - no pregnancies, no babies. One year after they got married, they started going to infertility doctors. The husband was checked out - no problems, high sperm quantity and motility rate, etc. My friend was told she has massive amounts of tissue growing inside and outside of her uterus and it's likely she will never even conceive, let alone bear a child. She's always been very healthy, by the way - eats well, never been overweight, exercises daily, never drank/smoked/drugs, etc. The doctors (in two different cities) have told her she has about a 4% chance of ever conceiving, and zero chance that a baby could come to term. Needless to say, they were/are devastated. They would make awesome parents!

My friend and her husband have spent the last three years doing everything possible to conceive - they've tried all the procedures, treatments, shots, drugs, prayers, fasts, temple trips, supplicating, more procedures, treatments, shots, IVF several times, etc. etc. They have spent exorbitant amounts of money (and time, effort, tears) to try and conceive a child - all to no avail.

They went to Hawaii for 10 days last month. I wonder how many righteous latter-day saints assume that since they went on a fancy vacation, and they don't have any kids, it must mean that they don't want any kids (because one equals the other, obviously). Why would they assume such a thing? My friend and her husband are very private people - they do not broadcast their infertility on social media - they do not get up to the stand at church and blubber about it to the ward - they keep these things private - so the vast majority of people at church have no idea they are unable to conceive. If someone didn't know about their struggles, I wonder if this young couple would be harshly judged and condemned by any in our ward, or anyone here - because after all, you don't KNOW they are infertile. So while some may say they don't judge and condemn the infertile, you don't KNOW who is and who isn't infertile, hence, the danger in judging and condemning ANYONE for how many children they have or don't have.

The Lord knows all, sees all - our hearts and everything else - nobody is going to "get away with" anything. Thank goodness his opinion is the only one that matters, and he's the only one we'll have to answer to.

I don't think there is as much unrighteous judgement going on as you seem to think.

I never judge an individual, I can't possibly know their situation.

You are entitled to your opinion, just as I am. You have no idea what I think other than what I've shared here, which is minute compared to what I could share. I guess I should have kept track of all the judgmental comments you and others have made on this subject and made a file of it or something, lol - but I have no desire or time to do such a thing. People can read and come to their own conclusions. Very few are fooled, and God never is.

As to your second comment, I'll just let that stand on its own as a witness.

[Michelle]

One of the daughters of a very close friend of mine appears to be infertile. I'm also close to and friends with this young woman, as I've known her since she was born, and she grew up with my youngest son (they remain close friends to this day, as well) - so I am very well acquainted, first-hand, with her situation. She and her husband have been married for 4 years now. They've never used any type of birth control, as they both wanted a baby straight away. So, the years have past - no pregnancies, no babies. One year after they got married, they started going to infertility doctors. The husband was checked out - no problems, high sperm quantity and motility rate, etc. My friend was told she has massive amounts of tissue growing inside and outside of her uterus and it's likely she will never even conceive, let alone bear a child. She's always been very healthy, by the way - eats well, never been overweight, exercises daily, never drank/smoked/drugs, etc. The doctors (in two different cities) have told her she has about a 4% chance of ever conceiving, and zero chance that a baby could come to term. Needless to say, they were/are devastated. They would make awesome parents!

My friend and her husband have spent the last three years doing everything possible to conceive - they've tried all the procedures, treatments, shots, drugs, prayers, fasts, temple trips, supplicating, more procedures, treatments, shots, IVF several times, etc. etc. They have spent exorbitant amounts of money (and time, effort, tears) to try and conceive a child - all to no avail.

They went to Hawaii for 10 days last month. I wonder how many righteous latter-day saints assume that since they went on a fancy vacation, and they don't have any kids, it must mean that they don't want any kids (because one equals the other, obviously). Why would they assume such a thing? My friend and her husband are very private people - they do not broadcast their infertility on social media - they do not get up to the stand at church and blubber about it to the ward - they keep these things private - so the vast majority of people at church have no idea they are unable to conceive. If someone didn't know about their struggles, I wonder if this young couple would be harshly judged and condemned by any in our ward, or anyone here - because after all, you don't KNOW they are infertile. So while some may say they don't judge and condemn the infertile, you don't KNOW who is and who isn't infertile, hence, the danger in judging and condemning ANYONE for how many children they have or don't have.

The Lord knows all, sees all - our hearts and everything else - nobody is going to "get away with" anything. Thank goodness his opinion is the only one that matters, and he's the only one we'll have to answer to.

I don't think there is as much unrighteous judgement going on as you seem to think.

I never judge an individual, I can't possibly know their situation.

You are entitled to your opinion, just as I am. You have no idea what I think other than what I've shared here, which is minute compared to what I could share. I guess I should have kept track of all the judgmental comments you and others have made on this subject and made a file of it or something, lol - but I have no desire or time to do such a thing. People can read and come to their own conclusions. Very few are fooled, and God never is.

As to your second comment, I'll just let that stand on its own as a witness.

You edited my comment. That is disingenuous. I said that in the context of I do not judge individuals or couples for whether or not they have children, or how many.

Here is my original statement back in context:

I don't think there is as much unrighteous judgement going on as you seem to think.

I never judge an individual, I can't possibly know their situation. I absolutely judge and share the downward trend. (I have shared this same sentiment for all the years I have shared demographics with regard to the gospel. You'll surely find it in numerous posts from me right here on LDSFF.)

Just as the brethren do, I, of course, make exception for those who cannot have children for whatever reason, but that never seems to be good enough. Once we have acknowledged the exceptions, it is right and appropriate to address and discuss the ideal. How else will we teach the next generation?

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... e?lang=eng

Now, as to making righteous judgments about other things, I follow the Lord Jesus Christ:

JST Matt. 7:1–2 Now these are the words which Jesus taught his disciples that they should say unto the people. Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment.

Here is some more information about proper judgement as found on https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/top ... s?lang=eng

Judgment is an important use of our agency and requires great care, especially when we make judgments about other people. All our judgments must be guided by righteous standards. Only God, who knows each individual's heart, can make final judgments of individuals.

Sometimes people feel that it is wrong to judge others in any way. While it is true that we should not condemn others or judge them unrighteously, we will need to make judgments of ideas, situations, and people throughout our lives. The Lord has given many commandments that we cannot keep without making judgments. For example, He has said: “Beware of false prophets. … Ye shall know them by their fruits” (Matthew 7:15-16) and “Go ye out from among the wicked” (D&C 38:42). We need to make judgments of people in many of our important decisions, such as choosing friends, voting for government leaders, and choosing a spouse.

The Lord gave a warning to guide us in our judgment of others: “With what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye” (3 Nephi 14:2-5).

In this scripture passage the Lord teaches that a fault we see in another is often like a tiny speck in that person's eye, compared to our own faults, which are like an enormous beam in our eyes. Sometimes we focus on others' faults when we should instead be working to improve ourselves.

Our righteous judgments about others can provide needed guidance for them and, in some cases, protection for us and our families. We should approach any such judgment with care and compassion. As much as we can, we should judge people's situations rather than judging the people themselves. Whenever possible, we should refrain from making judgments until we have an adequate knowledge of the facts. And we should always be sensitive to the Holy Spirit, who can guide our decisions. Alma's counsel to his son Corianton is a helpful reminder: “See that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually” (Alma 41:14).

Finally, I don't have any desire to continue discussing this with you. We disagree. That is fine. You have made a few assumptions about me and my position that aren't true. That is your prerogative, but not very productive. I didn't say you were being unkind because we disagree. I disagree with a lot of people, but I still like them and treat them with respect and don't believe they are being unkind. I said you were being unkind because you were adding to what someone else said with a false and unflattering conclusion. Then you confirmed my concerns when you misunderstood what I said as well.

Again, I'm not upset or losing sleep over this conversation, but I do intend to defend myself against false accusations.

[Zathura]

Going by this, and your comments on the fertility thread, it is obvious that once your wife starts menopause, no more sex for you - none, zip, zero, zilch, nada - you will be refraining for the rest of your, hopefully, many decades long life.

That’s when he gets a second and third wife. To progress and increase his kingdom. ie eternal progression

That's actually what they used to do. Not sure if you're joking. The husband would abandon his first wife to her children to take care of and marry a teen to start a new family. They used to say you couldn't have sex with a menopausal woman, or a pregnant one. The FLDS still believe this.

This is without question, one of the most disgusting, revolting things someone could do. I just marvel that we're even having this conversation on a supposed LDS forum. Any man who thinks of his wife as nothing more than a uterus to be used by him should be Ichabod Crane'd, post haste. God should just toss a big asteroid at us at this point.

Honestly I’m appalled that more people haven’t called this out .

[tmac]

One of the most challenging parts to all of this, from my perspective, is that really the whole debate is based almost entirely on "philosophies of men, mingled with [very scant] scripture." In other words it's just a matter of pitting one person's opinion against another's.

So, I'll throw one of my evolving opinions in the mix (which, because of all the clamor the subject matter normally stirs, is usually only spoken of in hushed and whispered tones in the Fulness of the Gospel subforums), which serves as one of the reasons I increasingly lean more and more toward the concept of MMP, and the doctrine of eternal progression -- because here we are in this telestial world, very heavily influenced by the world, but seeking to one extent or another to overcome it, arguing primarily about differences in our private opinions, whereas there does seem to be some scriptural basis for the the concept that attaining exaltation in the highest degree of the CK requires, among other things, experiencing a progression of spiritual requirements and living a higher law -- all stuff that most of us really know virtually nothing about at this stage of the game, and as a general rule and for the most part make little or no attempt to really understand or live by, as many of us often go around patting ourselves on the back for some level of compliance with the most basic telestial laws. Which all leaves me wondering how realistic is to think that 99.9+% are realistically going to be able to figure it all out and progress spiritually from A-Z with just one very short mortal bite at the apple?

I will say this: if this is the only chance we get, and we are completely limited by how far we can progress spiritually in this telestial world, then despite all the paradigms to the contrary, because the higher laws really aren't even on the radar screen at this point, I'm afraid that the best most of us can realistically hope for is to somehow transcend this telestial world and manage to squeak into the Terrestrial Kingdom, which according to our accepted doctrine, doesn't even require membership in the LDS church.

In the meantime, we continue to argue and debate about our telestial understandings, egged on by multi-monkered provocateurs, whose primary objective seems to be to stir dissension and strife.

[EmmaLee]

One of the daughters of a very close friend of mine appears to be infertile. I'm also close to and friends with this young woman, as I've known her since she was born, and she grew up with my youngest son (they remain close friends to this day, as well) - so I am very well acquainted, first-hand, with her situation. She and her husband have been married for 4 years now. They've never used any type of birth control, as they both wanted a baby straight away. So, the years have past - no pregnancies, no babies. One year after they got married, they started going to infertility doctors. The husband was checked out - no problems, high sperm quantity and motility rate, etc. My friend was told she has massive amounts of tissue growing inside and outside of her uterus and it's likely she will never even conceive, let alone bear a child. She's always been very healthy, by the way - eats well, never been overweight, exercises daily, never drank/smoked/drugs, etc. The doctors (in two different cities) have told her she has about a 4% chance of ever conceiving, and zero chance that a baby could come to term. Needless to say, they were/are devastated. They would make awesome parents!

My friend and her husband have spent the last three years doing everything possible to conceive - they've tried all the procedures, treatments, shots, drugs, prayers, fasts, temple trips, supplicating, more procedures, treatments, shots, IVF several times, etc. etc. They have spent exorbitant amounts of money (and time, effort, tears) to try and conceive a child - all to no avail.

They went to Hawaii for 10 days last month. I wonder how many righteous latter-day saints assume that since they went on a fancy vacation, and they don't have any kids, it must mean that they don't want any kids (because one equals the other, obviously). Why would they assume such a thing? My friend and her husband are very private people - they do not broadcast their infertility on social media - they do not get up to the stand at church and blubber about it to the ward - they keep these things private - so the vast majority of people at church have no idea they are unable to conceive. If someone didn't know about their struggles, I wonder if this young couple would be harshly judged and condemned by any in our ward, or anyone here - because after all, you don't KNOW they are infertile. So while some may say they don't judge and condemn the infertile, you don't KNOW who is and who isn't infertile, hence, the danger in judging and condemning ANYONE for how many children they have or don't have.

The Lord knows all, sees all - our hearts and everything else - nobody is going to "get away with" anything. Thank goodness his opinion is the only one that matters, and he's the only one we'll have to answer to.

I don't think there is as much unrighteous judgement going on as you seem to think.

I never judge an individual, I can't possibly know their situation.

You are entitled to your opinion, just as I am. You have no idea what I think other than what I've shared here, which is minute compared to what I could share. I guess I should have kept track of all the judgmental comments you and others have made on this subject and made a file of it or something, lol - but I have no desire or time to do such a thing. People can read and come to their own conclusions. Very few are fooled, and God never is.

As to your second comment, I'll just let that stand on its own as a witness.

You edited my comment. That is disingenuous. I said that in the context of I do not judge individuals or couples for whether or not they have children, or how many.

Here is my original statement back in context:

I don't think there is as much unrighteous judgement going on as you seem to think.

I never judge an individual, I can't possibly know their situation. I absolutely judge and share the downward trend. (I have shared this same sentiment for all the years I have shared demographics with regard to the gospel. You'll surely find it in numerous posts from me right here on LDSFF.)

Just as the brethren do, I, of course, make exception for those who cannot have children for whatever reason, but that never seems to be good enough. Once we have acknowledged the exceptions, it is right and appropriate to address and discuss the ideal. How else will we teach the next generation?

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... e?lang=eng

Now, as to making righteous judgments about other things, I follow the Lord Jesus Christ:

JST Matt. 7:1–2 Now these are the words which Jesus taught his disciples that they should say unto the people. Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment.

Here is some more information about proper judgement as found on https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/top ... s?lang=eng

Judgment is an important use of our agency and requires great care, especially when we make judgments about other people. All our judgments must be guided by righteous standards. Only God, who knows each individual's heart, can make final judgments of individuals.

Sometimes people feel that it is wrong to judge others in any way. While it is true that we should not condemn others or judge them unrighteously, we will need to make judgments of ideas, situations, and people throughout our lives. The Lord has given many commandments that we cannot keep without making judgments. For example, He has said: “Beware of false prophets. … Ye shall know them by their fruits” (Matthew 7:15-16) and “Go ye out from among the wicked” (D&C 38:42). We need to make judgments of people in many of our important decisions, such as choosing friends, voting for government leaders, and choosing a spouse.

The Lord gave a warning to guide us in our judgment of others: “With what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye” (3 Nephi 14:2-5).

In this scripture passage the Lord teaches that a fault we see in another is often like a tiny speck in that person's eye, compared to our own faults, which are like an enormous beam in our eyes. Sometimes we focus on others' faults when we should instead be working to improve ourselves.

Our righteous judgments about others can provide needed guidance for them and, in some cases, protection for us and our families. We should approach any such judgment with care and compassion. As much as we can, we should judge people's situations rather than judging the people themselves. Whenever possible, we should refrain from making judgments until we have an adequate knowledge of the facts. And we should always be sensitive to the Holy Spirit, who can guide our decisions. Alma's counsel to his son Corianton is a helpful reminder: “See that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually” (Alma 41:14).

Finally, I don't have any desire to continue discussing this with you. We disagree. That is fine. You have made a few assumptions about me and my position that aren't true. That is your prerogative, but not very productive. I didn't say you were being unkind because we disagree. I disagree with a lot of people, but I still like them and treat them with respect and don't believe they are being unkind. I said you were being unkind because you were adding to what someone else said with a false and unflattering conclusion. Then you confirmed my concerns when you misunderstood what I said as well.

Again, I'm not upset or losing sleep over this conversation, but I do intend to defend myself against false accusations.

I, too, have no desire to continue conversing with you - other than to defend myself over your false accusations. I did not "edit" your comment - I merely included the parts of your post that I was responding to. No reason to carry over your entire post, when there was only two short points I wished to address. That is not being "disingenuous" (a false accusation and UNrighteous judgement on your part) - that is being concise. But you will not ever see it that way, so I understand this post of mine is falling on deaf ears.

Because my conclusions regarding the obvious about Benaishtart were unflattering, does not make them untrue. It's odd that you feel the need to speak for him - are you his wife? his mother? Why can't he defend himself - is he incapable of doing so? He said on the 'Fertility' thread that no one should ever have sex unless it is for the purpose of getting pregnant. Anyone can go read his own words (unless he's edited his posts to save face). This is not my opinion - he SAID it. It doesn't take a whole lot of logic to then deduce that he believes you should not have sex when the wife is pregnant, or after she is in menopause. Why? Because if sex is only for the purpose of getting pregnant, there is no reason to have sex with a pregnant woman, or with a woman who has gone through menopause. So pray tell me, HOW EXACTLY is that a "false conclusion"? If you can't answer that question, then that is yet ANOTHER false accusation you have made against me. It's like 2+2 really does = 4. There is exactly ZERO "unkindness" about that. And again, I wonder why Benaishtart can't defend himself, but allows you to do it for him. Strange, but to each their own.

So, as I have proved that you continue to make false accusations against me, the part of your post regarding "righteous judgement" means exactly squat. Of course you won't see it that way, and I realize this post of mine is a waste of time - but at least it will be on the record. As I said, nobody is fooling God, but some will continue to try with all their might. Peace out.

[EmmaLee]

That’s when he gets a second and third wife. To progress and increase his kingdom. ie eternal progression

That's actually what they used to do. Not sure if you're joking. The husband would abandon his first wife to her children to take care of and marry a teen to start a new family. They used to say you couldn't have sex with a menopausal woman, or a pregnant one. The FLDS still believe this.

This is without question, one of the most disgusting, revolting things someone could do. I just marvel that we're even having this conversation on a supposed LDS forum. Any man who thinks of his wife as nothing more than a uterus to be used by him should be Ichabod Crane'd, post haste. God should just toss a big asteroid at us at this point.

Honestly I’m appalled that more people haven’t called this out .

Well, according to Michelle, that would be "unkind", Stahura. So the sickening perversions put forth in this forum (and in the Church) will just have to go uncontested, as we continue to swirl down the big toilet leading to hell.

[Benaishtart]

So I think it’s important that I clear some things up. Sex is absolutely not just for procreation. I know that women aren’t objects. Women have a value that is absolutely indescribable that most women themselves don’t even comprehend. The family is sacred. And free agency is central to everything we do and our eternal progression. You guys come to conclusions really really quickly. I often propose an idea to see what people really think. Show there true colors. Zion won’t be built until we can finally get some unity. It’s going to be rough because there will be a lot of divisive moments in our futures. But if we can get over them and stick with the prophets we’ll be stronger than ever.

[Thinker]

1) The family central to the plan of salvation. And by family I mean a man having priesthood power and a virtuous woman coming together to build a kingdom.

2) We have as many children as we can in this life to provide spirits with bodies. The greater our posterity in this life the more our progression will be related to this world. In the eternities we will continue to procreate both physically and spiritually.

3) This is absolutely central to the atonement and any and every work of salvation.

1) I agree! The family with a husband and wife (father & mother) is absolutely central to many plans: the ideal condition to raise children, the means of conception/existence, continuation of humanity & practice in being selfless saints. Because it is the foundation of all societies and so influential, the family is under attack like nothing else. I hope and pray that families will be strengthened to sustain and even become stronger through these attacks.

2) Heaven’s reward fallacy is so common it’s listed as a main cognitive distortion. I believe that the after-life is similar to this life except with a clearer vision of the consequences of our actions. It doesn’t matter if you were given little or great responsibility as much as how you handled it. If you have more children than you can care for physically, emotionally, intellectually, socially, spiritually etc - then YOU will be held accountable.

• Matthew 18:6: But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were drowned.”

Don’t think that neglect is not a form of offense and abuse. I have found that parents who have too many children neglect their children, by underestimating the needs of children and overestimating their abilities to meet their needs. The opposite of love/caring is not hate - but apathy - not caring.

3) Many people can never have children and never marry. Yet, they still serve important purposes. We each have unique spiritual gifts and callings. We are ALL called - but few chosen. And the choosing is not based on whether you were married and procreated - the choosing is based on doing God’s will - which is unique for each person and situation.

[Michelle]

That's actually what they used to do. Not sure if you're joking. The husband would abandon his first wife to her children to take care of and marry a teen to start a new family. They used to say you couldn't have sex with a menopausal woman, or a pregnant one. The FLDS still believe this.

This is without question, one of the most disgusting, revolting things someone could do. I just marvel that we're even having this conversation on a supposed LDS forum. Any man who thinks of his wife as nothing more than a uterus to be used by him should be Ichabod Crane'd, post haste. God should just toss a big asteroid at us at this point.

Honestly I’m appalled that more people haven’t called this out .

Well, according to Michelle, that would be "unkind", Stahura. So the sickening perversions put forth in this forum (and in the Church) will just have to go uncontested, as we continue to swirl down the big toilet leading to hell.

EmmaLee, you are still putting words into my mouth.

To quote Elder Uchtdorf "Stop it.". . . please.