LDS Freedom Forum

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑March 7th, 2019, 7:59 pm
Read my post again. I said nothing about Eve having a background check done on her. It was God I was referring to.

My bad, I assumed you weren't suggesting that God himself required a background check. I should have read it more carefully.

Dusty52 wrote: ↑March 7th, 2019, 4:35 pm Another possible change as the leaders of the church want to distance themselves from is using the word "Mormon "
So I am expecting a rebranding of the Book of Mormon, ridiculous

The Book of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as abridged by Mormon. Or appropriately shortened to TBOTCOJCOLDSAABM.

I didn't read all the comments, but the huge omission is this:

Eliminate one-on-one worthiness interviews with youth where abuse occurs/ begins.

No brainer.

That's probably at the top of the list.

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 11:05 am I didn't read all the comments, but the huge omission is this:

Eliminate one-on-one worthiness interviews with youth where abuse occurs) begins.

No brainer.

That's probably at the top of the list.

The Church knows without a doubt this is the right move. Sam Young has really caused them to paint themselves into a corner... I mean think about it, they excommunicated a very public person for advocating for this very thing... they will need to let the dust settle before they take action, which is a tragedy. They will adopt exactly the steps Sam proposed, with a heavy dose of not interfering with the Brethren and revelation.

Hie'ing to Kolob wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 12:45 pm

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 11:05 am I didn't read all the comments, but the huge omission is this:

Eliminate one-on-one worthiness interviews with youth where abuse occurs) begins.

No brainer.

That's probably at the top of the list.

The Church knows without a doubt this is the right move. Sam Young has really caused them to paint themselves into a corner... I mean think about it, they excommunicated a very public person for advocating for this very thing... they will need to let the dust settle before they take action, which is a tragedy. They will adopt exactly the steps Sam proposed, with a heavy dose of not interfering with the Brethren and revelation.

Sam was excommunicated for the manner in which he brought up and was advocating the subject, not so much the subject itself that he brought up.

Dusty52 wrote: ↑March 7th, 2019, 4:35 pm Another possible change as the leaders of the church want to distance themselves from is using the word "Mormon "
So I am expecting a rebranding of the Book of Mormon, ridiculous

Dusty: They are not distancing themselves from using the word "Mormon"....we are distancing ourselves from being called by that term. As for the Book of Mormon....it will not be renamed as it is named after the Prophet Mormon IN the Book of Mormon. Can't remember exactly where it is in the Doctrine and Covenants but the Savior gives us the name of this Church for this day....to be called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I know that my husband, for example, whenever he has been asked what church he belongs to....he has ALWAYS used the full name of the Church. When anyone asks me if I am a "Mormon"....I have usually always qualified my answer by saying that the world calls us by that term, because of the Book of Mormon....but I prefer to refer to myself as a Latter-day Saint. It's not ridiculous to refer to ourselves in terms of what the Savior has said is the name of the Church in this day.

Hie'ing to Kolob wrote: ↑March 7th, 2019, 3:44 pm

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑March 7th, 2019, 2:17 pm

Hie'ing to Kolob wrote: ↑March 7th, 2019, 2:01 pm

Dusty52 wrote: ↑March 7th, 2019, 2:00 am Having background checks is a basic safeguarding issue, don't you get that??'

An even more basic approach would be not to allow priesthood holders to be alone quizzing girls and boys about sex.

This covers each and every one of us males. What's this church coming to? What's next, female Bishops and Stake Presidents? Maybe women don't need background checks because they are perfect in every way.

The concept of forced/voluntary confessionals to a Bishop to receive forgiveness, is a dubious "doctrine" to say the least.

Obviously background checks become really problematic when under the inspiration of the spirit a call is extended to a past perpetrator who fails a background check. Even more embarrassing is when that call is a bishop and up.

No Bishop has the authority to FORGIVE.....his stewardship is to help someone who might be making a confession on his/her path of repentance.

natasha wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 1:46 pm

Hie'ing to Kolob wrote: ↑March 7th, 2019, 3:44 pm

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑March 7th, 2019, 2:17 pm

Hie'ing to Kolob wrote: ↑March 7th, 2019, 2:01 pm

An even more basic approach would be not to allow priesthood holders to be alone quizzing girls and boys about sex.

This covers each and every one of us males. What's this church coming to? What's next, female Bishops and Stake Presidents? Maybe women don't need background checks because they are perfect in every way.

The concept of forced/voluntary confessionals to a Bishop to receive forgiveness, is a dubious "doctrine" to say the least.

Obviously background checks become really problematic when under the inspiration of the spirit a call is extended to a past perpetrator who fails a background check. Even more embarrassing is when that call is a bishop and up.

No Bishop has the authority to FORGIVE.....his stewardship is to help someone who might be making a confession on his/her path of repentance.

You are correct in doctrine, but not in practice.

There is the undeniable, yet unwritten teaching in the Church that you must go to a bishop as part of the repentance process for certain sins. In other words, confession to a bishop is required.

Durzan wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 1:06 pm

Sam was excommunicated for the manner in which he brought up and was advocating the subject, not so much the subject itself that he brought up.

Yep, Sam wanted to be in charge so much that when his demands weren't met he called for open rebellion after his starvation tantrum was foiled by hunger. This pattern of Satanism began, for us, when Lucifer had a great idea of not allowing anyone to be harmed. Sounds wonderful. He and his followers were ex'd from Heaven. The pattern repeats itself all the time.

I don't see why the church would do away with youth interviews. I think they're both valuable and necessary.

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 1:49 pm

natasha wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 1:46 pm

Hie'ing to Kolob wrote: ↑March 7th, 2019, 3:44 pm

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑March 7th, 2019, 2:17 pm
This covers each and every one of us males. What's this church coming to? What's next, female Bishops and Stake Presidents? Maybe women don't need background checks because they are perfect in every way.

The concept of forced/voluntary confessionals to a Bishop to receive forgiveness, is a dubious "doctrine" to say the least.

Obviously background checks become really problematic when under the inspiration of the spirit a call is extended to a past perpetrator who fails a background check. Even more embarrassing is when that call is a bishop and up.

No Bishop has the authority to FORGIVE.....his stewardship is to help someone who might be making a confession on his/her path of repentance.

You are correct in doctrine, but not in practice.

There is the undeniable, yet unwritten teaching in the Church that you must go to a bishop as part of the repentance process for certain sins. In other words, confession to a bishop is required.

Which is in the D&C.

Durzan wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 2:08 pm

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 1:49 pm

natasha wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 1:46 pm

Hie'ing to Kolob wrote: ↑March 7th, 2019, 3:44 pm

The concept of forced/voluntary confessionals to a Bishop to receive forgiveness, is a dubious "doctrine" to say the least.

Obviously background checks become really problematic when under the inspiration of the spirit a call is extended to a past perpetrator who fails a background check. Even more embarrassing is when that call is a bishop and up.

No Bishop has the authority to FORGIVE.....his stewardship is to help someone who might be making a confession on his/her path of repentance.

You are correct in doctrine, but not in practice.

There is the undeniable, yet unwritten teaching in the Church that you must go to a bishop as part of the repentance process for certain sins. In other words, confession to a bishop is required.

Which is in the D&C.

It is written no where that Christ's forgiveness is dependent on a bishop's forgiveness, or for that matter, any man's forgiveness. Other than, we must forgive those who trespass against us, that we may be forgiven.

You got a DC quote? No you don't.

Besides, your very impulse to defend such a teaching paints you into a corner. What corner? The corner defined as "we need some priest to obtain Christ's forgiveness." You want to defend that? You want to argue for that?

If not, clarify what you're arguing for please.

shadow wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 2:06 pm

Durzan wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 1:06 pm

Sam was excommunicated for the manner in which he brought up and was advocating the subject, not so much the subject itself that he brought up.

Yep, Sam wanted to be in charge so much that when his demands weren't met he called for open rebellion after his starvation tantrum was foiled by hunger. This pattern of Satanism began, for us, when Lucifer had a great idea of not allowing anyone to be harmed. Sounds wonderful. He and his followers were ex'd from Heaven. The pattern repeats itself all the time.

I don't see why the church would do away with youth interviews. I think they're both valuable and necessary.

Shadow, your poor logic has already been dealt with, and yet you continue to repeat your faulty logic.

For those who might be confused by your sophistry, these two things are not equivalent:

Seeking to minimize abuse so it cannot occur per Church guidelines is not equal to Satan lying by claiming, "Send me and not one soul shall be lost."

Satan was lying, first of all. Sam isn't. Second of all, Sam Young's argument is not that liberty is bad. Satan's argument was that. Satan argued that Liberty carried with it the inherent potential to sin and reap serious consequences. Satan lied and promised security. Yes, it is true that corrupt or deceived politicians frequently promise security. "No child left behind" is literally borrowing Satan's words.

In summary, for the persons you may have confused, let me hopefully unconfuse them:

It is a fact that the one-on-one interview practice results in abuse, albeit in presumably small numbers.

Such possibility for abuse can be eliminated by outright discontinuing the practice. If discontinuation isn't on the table for discussion, then make the policy require a parent to be in the room, or do as the Boy Scouts do or the Primary does, and require "two deep leadership." That's already a Church practice in Primary and Scouts so it's not like it's a foreign idea.

But no, the Church refuses to do this, and insists on a practice where abuse will continue to occur, in small doses. So as long as it happens to small numbers of girls and boys, it's okay, right?

This isn't about Liberty and the right to choose, this is about a idiotic policy. The Church is culpable and will continue to write secret checks out to victims, in exchange for ironclad NDA's until some time passes, and Sam Young can't be "credited", so to speak, as a driving reason for the change.

https://invisiblescubit.com is Sam's blog which details some of the abuse and current events on the subject.

Here's the #1 reason why the policy change isn't done post haste: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG9k7i-JOuw&t=32s and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpN-vJmLoho.

This video shows a current apostle practicing priestcraft. The technique is all-too-familiar for us Mormons. How do the interviews work hand in hand with priestcraft? The interview imprints the leader onto the impressionable youth. If all goes as intended, the youth will revere the "authority". It's all about "authority", and about instilling in the young mind that the Church has "it", and that "it" must be obeyed and respected, if not worshipped. It's called priestcraft.

So, it's a BIG DEAL for priestcraft practitioners to discontinue a MAJOR tool of their craft. It's a BIG, BIG deal.

Us common folk, who aren't "in" to that type of psychological abuse, can't understand on the surface why the Church digs in and takes a strong stance against eliminating the interviews. That's because we aren't wired up to abuse people, and the institution's very foundation is such cult-creating devices. The videos above show other techniques: standing up when a GA enters the room; and "you take your jacket off when the presiding official takes his off." That's NUTS! Can't believe that was caught on tape. Truly embarrassing!!!

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 2:29 pm It is written no where that Christ's forgiveness is dependent on a bishop's forgiveness, or for that matter, any man's forgiveness. Other than, we must forgive those who trespass against us, that we may be forgiven.

Besides, your very impulse to defend such a teaching paints you into a corner. What corner? The corner defined as "we need some priest to obtain Christ's forgiveness." You want to defend that? You want to argue for that?

If not, clarify what you're arguing for please.

Your assertion that Confession to the Bishop is the Bishop being the one to forgive you is false. The fact that you conflate confession to the bishop with forgiveness is a gross misunderstanding on your part.

Christ is the end all be all of forgiveness, you got that part right, but the Bishop isn't and never has been the one who forgives you. He is merely fulfilling a the role of being a common judge in Israel as established in the D&C. Helping people repent is part of his duties as a priesthood holder, and judging people's worthiness is part of his specific duties as both as the Bishop. IE, its his responsibility to oversee the physical administration of the repentance process of those who have committed serious sin. The Bishop doesn't forgive you, God does... however, sin comes with consequences, and those consequences need to be administered, particularly if they are for a severe sin.

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 2:29 pm You got a DC quote? No you don't.

I thought the references were rather obvious, since we are talking about a role that is clearly defined in the D&C. Actually, I got quite a few scriptures that I can draw upon to back up my assertion.

The Bishop is the President of the Aaronic Priesthood as established in D&C 107:13-15.

13 The second priesthood is called the Priesthood of Aaron, because it was conferred upon Aaron and his seed, throughout all their generations.

14 Why it is called the lesser priesthood is because it is an appendage to the greater, or the Melchizedek Priesthood, and has power in administering outward ordinances.

15 The bishopric is the presidency of this priesthood, and holds the keys or authority of the same.

As President of the Aaronic Priesthood, the Bishop is in charge of overseeing the administration of the duties of the Aaronic priesthood in a ward, He is also the president of the Priests Quorum in a ward. A Bishop inherits all the duties, powers, and responsibilities of all offices of the Aaronic Priesthood; If the bishop is a High Priest, then he also inherits all the duties, powers, and responsibilities of being an elder and High Priest (and thus the responsibilities of a Melkezideck Priesthood holder as well). Some of the general duties of the priesthood are given in D&C 20:38-67, all of which apply to the bishop as well.

38 The duty of the elders, priests, teachers, deacons, and members of the church of Christ—An apostle is an elder, and it is his calling to baptize;

39 And to ordain other elders, priests, teachers, and deacons;

40 And to administer bread and wine—the emblems of the flesh and blood of Christ—

41 And to confirm those who are baptized into the church, by the laying on of hands for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, according to the scriptures;

42 And to teach, expound, exhort, baptize, and watch over the church;

43 And to confirm the church by the laying on of the hands, and the giving of the Holy Ghost;

44 And to take the lead of all meetings.

45 The elders are to conduct the meetings as they are led by the Holy Ghost, according to the commandments and revelations of God.

46 The priest’s duty is to preach, teach, expound, exhort, and baptize, and administer the sacrament,

47 And visit the house of each member, and exhort them to pray vocally and in secret and attend to all family duties.

48 And he may also ordain other priests, teachers, and deacons.

49 And he is to take the lead of meetings when there is no elder present;

50 But when there is an elder present, he is only to preach, teach, expound, exhort, and baptize,

51 And visit the house of each member, exhorting them to pray vocally and in secret and attend to all family duties.

52 In all these duties the priest is to assist the elder if occasion requires.

53 The teacher’s duty is to watch over the church always, and be with and strengthen them;

54 And see that there is no iniquity in the church, neither hardness with each other, neither lying, backbiting, nor evil speaking;

55 And see that the church meet together often, and also see that all the members do their duty.

56 And he is to take the lead of meetings in the absence of the elder or priest—

57 And is to be assisted always, in all his duties in the church, by the deacons, if occasion requires.

58 But neither teachers nor deacons have authority to baptize, administer the sacrament, or lay on hands;

59 They are, however, to warn, expound, exhort, and teach, and invite all to come unto Christ.

60 Every elder, priest, teacher, or deacon is to be ordained according to the gifts and callings of God unto him; and he is to be ordained by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is in the one who ordains him.

61 The several elders composing this church of Christ are to meet in conference once in three months, or from time to time as said conferences shall direct or appoint;

62 And said conferences are to do whatever church business is necessary to be done at the time.

63 The elders are to receive their licenses from other elders, by vote of the church to which they belong, or from the conferences.

64 Each priest, teacher, or deacon, who is ordained by a priest, may take a certificate from him at the time, which certificate, when presented to an elder, shall entitle him to a license, which shall authorize him to perform the duties of his calling, or he may receive it from a conference.

65 No person is to be ordained to any office in this church, where there is a regularly organized branch of the same, without the vote of that church;

66 But the presiding elders, traveling bishops, high councilors, high priests, and elders, may have the privilege of ordaining, where there is no branch of the church that a vote may be called.

67 Every president of the high priesthood (or presiding elder), bishop, high councilor, and high priest, is to be ordained by the direction of a high council or general conference.

Not all the parts that I bolded. Are those not things that a bishop does in a personal interview?

There is more I can expound on this line of thought and further scriptures I can quote, but for now this shall suffice. This serves as the foundation for why we confess to Bishops for our more serious sins. Bishops are to expound, exhort, warn, teach, aid in repentance, etc. And on top of that they have the additional responsibility of caring for the congregation (Bishop's storehouse stuff & fast offering), overseeing the physical ordinances (President of the Priests Quorum), and judging the worthiness of the local membership (Judge of Israel) when necessary and directed by God. That is where the whole bit about having interviews with bishops come from (at least in part).

There are other scriptures that talk about how we must bring those who have made serious sin before the elders of the church... well guess what, the term elder can be another term to refer to JUDGES. Bishops, for all intents and purposes, do usually count as an elders (cause most of them are High Priests which is a higher office than elder).

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 3:05 pm Truly embarrassing!!!

Video's don't show context. However, going on a hunger strike until the church does what Sam demands- now that's embarrassing!! It's also funny . What a Gomer Sam is. A prideful one at that! That's why God hasn't chosen Sam to lead His church- Pride. Same with your Snuffer- these people ooze with pride. You aught to hang out with those groups on their sites instead of spewing your garbage on this one.

natasha wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 1:46 pm
No Bishop has the authority to FORGIVE.....his stewardship is to help someone who might be making a confession on his/her path of repentance.

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

Durzan wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 4:27 pm

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 2:29 pm It is written no where that Christ's forgiveness is dependent on a bishop's forgiveness, or for that matter, any man's forgiveness. Other than, we must forgive those who trespass against us, that we may be forgiven.

Besides, your very impulse to defend such a teaching paints you into a corner. What corner? The corner defined as "we need some priest to obtain Christ's forgiveness." You want to defend that? You want to argue for that?

If not, clarify what you're arguing for please.

Your assertion that Confession to the Bishop is the Bishop being the one to forgive you is false. The fact that you conflate confession to the bishop with forgiveness is a gross misunderstanding on your part.

Christ is the end all be all of forgiveness, you got that part right, but the Bishop isn't and never has been the one who forgives you. He is merely fulfilling a the role of being a common judge in Israel as established in the D&C. Helping people repent is part of his duties as a priesthood holder, and judging people's worthiness is part of his specific duties as both as the Bishop. IE, its his responsibility to oversee the physical administration of the repentance process of those who have committed serious sin. The Bishop doesn't forgive you, God does... however, sin comes with consequences, and those consequences need to be administered, particularly if they are for a severe sin.

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 2:29 pm You got a DC quote? No you don't.

I thought the references were rather obvious, since we are talking about a role that is clearly defined in the D&C. Actually, I got quite a few scriptures that I can draw upon to back up my assertion.

The Bishop is the President of the Aaronic Priesthood as established in D&C 107:13-15.

13 The second priesthood is called the Priesthood of Aaron, because it was conferred upon Aaron and his seed, throughout all their generations.

14 Why it is called the lesser priesthood is because it is an appendage to the greater, or the Melchizedek Priesthood, and has power in administering outward ordinances.

15 The bishopric is the presidency of this priesthood, and holds the keys or authority of the same.

As President of the Aaronic Priesthood, the Bishop is in charge of overseeing the administration of the duties of the Aaronic priesthood in a ward, He is also the president of the Priests Quorum in a ward. A Bishop inherits all the duties, powers, and responsibilities of all offices of the Aaronic Priesthood; If the bishop is a High Priest, then he also inherits all the duties, powers, and responsibilities of being an elder and High Priest (and thus the responsibilities of a Melkezideck Priesthood holder as well). Some of the general duties of the priesthood are given in D&C 20:38-67, all of which apply to the bishop as well.

38 The duty of the elders, priests, teachers, deacons, and members of the church of Christ—An apostle is an elder, and it is his calling to baptize;

39 And to ordain other elders, priests, teachers, and deacons;

40 And to administer bread and wine—the emblems of the flesh and blood of Christ—

41 And to confirm those who are baptized into the church, by the laying on of hands for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, according to the scriptures;

42 And to teach, expound, exhort, baptize, and watch over the church;

43 And to confirm the church by the laying on of the hands, and the giving of the Holy Ghost;

44 And to take the lead of all meetings.

45 The elders are to conduct the meetings as they are led by the Holy Ghost, according to the commandments and revelations of God.

46 The priest’s duty is to preach, teach, expound, exhort, and baptize, and administer the sacrament,

47 And visit the house of each member, and exhort them to pray vocally and in secret and attend to all family duties.

48 And he may also ordain other priests, teachers, and deacons.

49 And he is to take the lead of meetings when there is no elder present;

50 But when there is an elder present, he is only to preach, teach, expound, exhort, and baptize,

51 And visit the house of each member, exhorting them to pray vocally and in secret and attend to all family duties.

52 In all these duties the priest is to assist the elder if occasion requires.

53 The teacher’s duty is to watch over the church always, and be with and strengthen them;

54 And see that there is no iniquity in the church, neither hardness with each other, neither lying, backbiting, nor evil speaking;

55 And see that the church meet together often, and also see that all the members do their duty.

56 And he is to take the lead of meetings in the absence of the elder or priest—

57 And is to be assisted always, in all his duties in the church, by the deacons, if occasion requires.

58 But neither teachers nor deacons have authority to baptize, administer the sacrament, or lay on hands;

59 They are, however, to warn, expound, exhort, and teach, and invite all to come unto Christ.

60 Every elder, priest, teacher, or deacon is to be ordained according to the gifts and callings of God unto him; and he is to be ordained by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is in the one who ordains him.

61 The several elders composing this church of Christ are to meet in conference once in three months, or from time to time as said conferences shall direct or appoint;

62 And said conferences are to do whatever church business is necessary to be done at the time.

63 The elders are to receive their licenses from other elders, by vote of the church to which they belong, or from the conferences.

64 Each priest, teacher, or deacon, who is ordained by a priest, may take a certificate from him at the time, which certificate, when presented to an elder, shall entitle him to a license, which shall authorize him to perform the duties of his calling, or he may receive it from a conference.

65 No person is to be ordained to any office in this church, where there is a regularly organized branch of the same, without the vote of that church;

66 But the presiding elders, traveling bishops, high councilors, high priests, and elders, may have the privilege of ordaining, where there is no branch of the church that a vote may be called.

67 Every president of the high priesthood (or presiding elder), bishop, high councilor, and high priest, is to be ordained by the direction of a high council or general conference.

Not all the parts that I bolded. Are those not things that a bishop does in a personal interview?

There is more I can expound on this line of thought and further scriptures I can quote, but for now this shall suffice. This serves as the foundation for why we confess to Bishops for our more serious sins. Bishops are to expound, exhort, warn, teach, aid in repentance, etc. And on top of that they have the additional responsibility of caring for the congregation (Bishop's storehouse stuff & fast offering), overseeing the physical ordinances (President of the Priests Quorum), and judging the worthiness of the local membership (Judge of Israel) when necessary and directed by God. That is where the whole bit about having interviews with bishops come from (at least in part).

There are other scriptures that talk about how we must bring those who have made serious sin before the elders of the church... well guess what, the term elder can be another term to refer to JUDGES. Bishops, for all intents and purposes, do usually count as an elders (cause most of them are High Priests which is a higher office than elder).

Durzan,

You know exactly what he means and you are relying on a bit of Elder Holland-esque BBC interview strategy here...

The reality is that the Church teaches and promotes true forgiveness of "serious" sin requires confession to a bishop.

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

Does the bishop claim to actually forgive sins? Of course not, and that's a red herring to suggest ANYONE is making that claim. What then is a bishop's role in "facilitating" this forgiveness? Obviously his priesthood is required to "resolve" your sins in order to gain access to saving ordinances.

The scriptures you provided don't support your position. None do. This is a polygamy era relic that needs to go!

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 1:49 pm

natasha wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 1:46 pm

Hie'ing to Kolob wrote: ↑March 7th, 2019, 3:44 pm

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑March 7th, 2019, 2:17 pm
This covers each and every one of us males. What's this church coming to? What's next, female Bishops and Stake Presidents? Maybe women don't need background checks because they are perfect in every way.

The concept of forced/voluntary confessionals to a Bishop to receive forgiveness, is a dubious "doctrine" to say the least.

Obviously background checks become really problematic when under the inspiration of the spirit a call is extended to a past perpetrator who fails a background check. Even more embarrassing is when that call is a bishop and up.

No Bishop has the authority to FORGIVE.....his stewardship is to help someone who might be making a confession on his/her path of repentance.

You are correct in doctrine, but not in practice.

There is the undeniable, yet unwritten teaching in the Church that you must go to a bishop as part of the repentance process for certain sins. In other words, confession to a bishop is required.

Its absolutely written, a lot.

Durzan wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 4:27 pm

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 2:29 pm It is written no where that Christ's forgiveness is dependent on a bishop's forgiveness, or for that matter, any man's forgiveness. Other than, we must forgive those who trespass against us, that we may be forgiven.

Besides, your very impulse to defend such a teaching paints you into a corner. What corner? The corner defined as "we need some priest to obtain Christ's forgiveness." You want to defend that? You want to argue for that?

If not, clarify what you're arguing for please.

Your assertion that Confession to the Bishop is the Bishop being the one to forgive you is false. The fact that you conflate confession to the bishop with forgiveness is a gross misunderstanding on your part.

Christ is the end all be all of forgiveness, you got that part right, but the Bishop isn't and never has been the one who forgives you. He is merely fulfilling a the role of being a common judge in Israel as established in the D&C. Helping people repent is part of his duties as a priesthood holder, and judging people's worthiness is part of his specific duties as both as the Bishop. IE, its his responsibility to oversee the physical administration of the repentance process of those who have committed serious sin. The Bishop doesn't forgive you, God does... however, sin comes with consequences, and those consequences need to be administered, particularly if they are for a severe sin.

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 2:29 pm You got a DC quote? No you don't.

I thought the references were rather obvious, since we are talking about a role that is clearly defined in the D&C. Actually, I got quite a few scriptures that I can draw upon to back up my assertion.

The Bishop is the President of the Aaronic Priesthood as established in D&C 107:13-15.

13 The second priesthood is called the Priesthood of Aaron, because it was conferred upon Aaron and his seed, throughout all their generations.

14 Why it is called the lesser priesthood is because it is an appendage to the greater, or the Melchizedek Priesthood, and has power in administering outward ordinances.

15 The bishopric is the presidency of this priesthood, and holds the keys or authority of the same.

As President of the Aaronic Priesthood, the Bishop is in charge of overseeing the administration of the duties of the Aaronic priesthood in a ward, He is also the president of the Priests Quorum in a ward. A Bishop inherits all the duties, powers, and responsibilities of all offices of the Aaronic Priesthood; If the bishop is a High Priest, then he also inherits all the duties, powers, and responsibilities of being an elder and High Priest (and thus the responsibilities of a Melkezideck Priesthood holder as well). Some of the general duties of the priesthood are given in D&C 20:38-67, all of which apply to the bishop as well.

38 The duty of the elders, priests, teachers, deacons, and members of the church of Christ—An apostle is an elder, and it is his calling to baptize;

39 And to ordain other elders, priests, teachers, and deacons;

40 And to administer bread and wine—the emblems of the flesh and blood of Christ—

41 And to confirm those who are baptized into the church, by the laying on of hands for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, according to the scriptures;

42 And to teach, expound, exhort, baptize, and watch over the church;

43 And to confirm the church by the laying on of the hands, and the giving of the Holy Ghost;

44 And to take the lead of all meetings.

45 The elders are to conduct the meetings as they are led by the Holy Ghost, according to the commandments and revelations of God.

46 The priest’s duty is to preach, teach, expound, exhort, and baptize, and administer the sacrament,

47 And visit the house of each member, and exhort them to pray vocally and in secret and attend to all family duties.

48 And he may also ordain other priests, teachers, and deacons.

49 And he is to take the lead of meetings when there is no elder present;

50 But when there is an elder present, he is only to preach, teach, expound, exhort, and baptize,

51 And visit the house of each member, exhorting them to pray vocally and in secret and attend to all family duties.

52 In all these duties the priest is to assist the elder if occasion requires.

53 The teacher’s duty is to watch over the church always, and be with and strengthen them;

54 And see that there is no iniquity in the church, neither hardness with each other, neither lying, backbiting, nor evil speaking;

55 And see that the church meet together often, and also see that all the members do their duty.

56 And he is to take the lead of meetings in the absence of the elder or priest—

57 And is to be assisted always, in all his duties in the church, by the deacons, if occasion requires.

58 But neither teachers nor deacons have authority to baptize, administer the sacrament, or lay on hands;

59 They are, however, to warn, expound, exhort, and teach, and invite all to come unto Christ.

60 Every elder, priest, teacher, or deacon is to be ordained according to the gifts and callings of God unto him; and he is to be ordained by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is in the one who ordains him.

61 The several elders composing this church of Christ are to meet in conference once in three months, or from time to time as said conferences shall direct or appoint;

62 And said conferences are to do whatever church business is necessary to be done at the time.

63 The elders are to receive their licenses from other elders, by vote of the church to which they belong, or from the conferences.

64 Each priest, teacher, or deacon, who is ordained by a priest, may take a certificate from him at the time, which certificate, when presented to an elder, shall entitle him to a license, which shall authorize him to perform the duties of his calling, or he may receive it from a conference.

65 No person is to be ordained to any office in this church, where there is a regularly organized branch of the same, without the vote of that church;

66 But the presiding elders, traveling bishops, high councilors, high priests, and elders, may have the privilege of ordaining, where there is no branch of the church that a vote may be called.

67 Every president of the high priesthood (or presiding elder), bishop, high councilor, and high priest, is to be ordained by the direction of a high council or general conference.

Not all the parts that I bolded. Are those not things that a bishop does in a personal interview?

There is more I can expound on this line of thought and further scriptures I can quote, but for now this shall suffice. This serves as the foundation for why we confess to Bishops for our more serious sins. Bishops are to expound, exhort, warn, teach, aid in repentance, etc. And on top of that they have the additional responsibility of caring for the congregation (Bishop's storehouse stuff & fast offering), overseeing the physical ordinances (President of the Priests Quorum), and judging the worthiness of the local membership (Judge of Israel) when necessary and directed by God. That is where the whole bit about having interviews with bishops come from (at least in part).

There are other scriptures that talk about how we must bring those who have made serious sin before the elders of the church... well guess what, the term elder can be another term to refer to JUDGES. Bishops, for all intents and purposes, do usually count as an elders (cause most of them are High Priests which is a higher office than elder).

Your first paragraph is correct where you say, "Christ is the end all be all of forgiveness, you got that part right, but the Bishop isn't and never has been the one who forgives you."

That is the only part I was commenting on.

If you agree to that which appears you do, then we have no argument. And yet you go on to quote scriptures which don't prove what you originally said.

You said this "There is the undeniable, yet unwritten teaching in the Church that you must go to a bishop as part of the repentance process for certain sins. In other words, confession to a bishop is required" was in the D&C.

Then you fail to produce one single verse in the Doctrine and Covenants which supports your assertion.

I would just encourage you to get it clear in your own mind that bishops are in no way, shape, or form required to receive forgiveness from Christ. That's all I am saying. Every bishop on earth could drop dead today and it would not impact what Christ could do. Every person in the world could still obtain forgiveness from Christ.

But I will say that a good bishop could help a person by pointing them to Christ, and by inspiring and motivating someone to go to Christ to seek and obtain forgiveness.

Hie'ing to Kolob wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 5:35 pm

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 1:49 pm

natasha wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 1:46 pm

Hie'ing to Kolob wrote: ↑March 7th, 2019, 3:44 pm

The concept of forced/voluntary confessionals to a Bishop to receive forgiveness, is a dubious "doctrine" to say the least.

Obviously background checks become really problematic when under the inspiration of the spirit a call is extended to a past perpetrator who fails a background check. Even more embarrassing is when that call is a bishop and up.

No Bishop has the authority to FORGIVE.....his stewardship is to help someone who might be making a confession on his/her path of repentance.

You are correct in doctrine, but not in practice.

There is the undeniable, yet unwritten teaching in the Church that you must go to a bishop as part of the repentance process for certain sins. In other words, confession to a bishop is required.

Its absolutely written, a lot.

I suppose it is written, but just not in the scriptures. In fact I have actually researched that in the past and found several places in general conference talks even where bishops are glorified and interjected into the repentance process as necessary confession stations.

Durzan wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 4:27 pm

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 2:29 pm It is written no where that Christ's forgiveness is dependent on a bishop's forgiveness, or for that matter, any man's forgiveness. Other than, we must forgive those who trespass against us, that we may be forgiven.

Besides, your very impulse to defend such a teaching paints you into a corner. What corner? The corner defined as "we need some priest to obtain Christ's forgiveness." You want to defend that? You want to argue for that?

If not, clarify what you're arguing for please.

Your assertion that Confession to the Bishop is the Bishop being the one to forgive you is false. The fact that you conflate confession to the bishop with forgiveness is a gross misunderstanding on your part.

Christ is the end all be all of forgiveness, you got that part right, but the Bishop isn't and never has been the one who forgives you. He is merely fulfilling a the role of being a common judge in Israel as established in the D&C. Helping people repent is part of his duties as a priesthood holder, and judging people's worthiness is part of his specific duties as both as the Bishop. IE, its his responsibility to oversee the physical administration of the repentance process of those who have committed serious sin. The Bishop doesn't forgive you, God does... however, sin comes with consequences, and those consequences need to be administered, particularly if they are for a severe sin.

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 2:29 pm You got a DC quote? No you don't.

I thought the references were rather obvious, since we are talking about a role that is clearly defined in the D&C. Actually, I got quite a few scriptures that I can draw upon to back up my assertion.

The Bishop is the President of the Aaronic Priesthood as established in D&C 107:13-15.

13 The second priesthood is called the Priesthood of Aaron, because it was conferred upon Aaron and his seed, throughout all their generations.

14 Why it is called the lesser priesthood is because it is an appendage to the greater, or the Melchizedek Priesthood, and has power in administering outward ordinances.

15 The bishopric is the presidency of this priesthood, and holds the keys or authority of the same.

As President of the Aaronic Priesthood, the Bishop is in charge of overseeing the administration of the duties of the Aaronic priesthood in a ward, He is also the president of the Priests Quorum in a ward. A Bishop inherits all the duties, powers, and responsibilities of all offices of the Aaronic Priesthood; If the bishop is a High Priest, then he also inherits all the duties, powers, and responsibilities of being an elder and High Priest (and thus the responsibilities of a Melkezideck Priesthood holder as well). Some of the general duties of the priesthood are given in D&C 20:38-67, all of which apply to the bishop as well.

38 The duty of the elders, priests, teachers, deacons, and members of the church of Christ—An apostle is an elder, and it is his calling to baptize;

39 And to ordain other elders, priests, teachers, and deacons;

40 And to administer bread and wine—the emblems of the flesh and blood of Christ—

41 And to confirm those who are baptized into the church, by the laying on of hands for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, according to the scriptures;

42 And to teach, expound, exhort, baptize, and watch over the church;

43 And to confirm the church by the laying on of the hands, and the giving of the Holy Ghost;

44 And to take the lead of all meetings.

45 The elders are to conduct the meetings as they are led by the Holy Ghost, according to the commandments and revelations of God.

46 The priest’s duty is to preach, teach, expound, exhort, and baptize, and administer the sacrament,

47 And visit the house of each member, and exhort them to pray vocally and in secret and attend to all family duties.

48 And he may also ordain other priests, teachers, and deacons.

49 And he is to take the lead of meetings when there is no elder present;

50 But when there is an elder present, he is only to preach, teach, expound, exhort, and baptize,

51 And visit the house of each member, exhorting them to pray vocally and in secret and attend to all family duties.

52 In all these duties the priest is to assist the elder if occasion requires.

53 The teacher’s duty is to watch over the church always, and be with and strengthen them;

54 And see that there is no iniquity in the church, neither hardness with each other, neither lying, backbiting, nor evil speaking;

55 And see that the church meet together often, and also see that all the members do their duty.

56 And he is to take the lead of meetings in the absence of the elder or priest—

57 And is to be assisted always, in all his duties in the church, by the deacons, if occasion requires.

58 But neither teachers nor deacons have authority to baptize, administer the sacrament, or lay on hands;

59 They are, however, to warn, expound, exhort, and teach, and invite all to come unto Christ.

60 Every elder, priest, teacher, or deacon is to be ordained according to the gifts and callings of God unto him; and he is to be ordained by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is in the one who ordains him.

61 The several elders composing this church of Christ are to meet in conference once in three months, or from time to time as said conferences shall direct or appoint;

62 And said conferences are to do whatever church business is necessary to be done at the time.

63 The elders are to receive their licenses from other elders, by vote of the church to which they belong, or from the conferences.

64 Each priest, teacher, or deacon, who is ordained by a priest, may take a certificate from him at the time, which certificate, when presented to an elder, shall entitle him to a license, which shall authorize him to perform the duties of his calling, or he may receive it from a conference.

65 No person is to be ordained to any office in this church, where there is a regularly organized branch of the same, without the vote of that church;

66 But the presiding elders, traveling bishops, high councilors, high priests, and elders, may have the privilege of ordaining, where there is no branch of the church that a vote may be called.

67 Every president of the high priesthood (or presiding elder), bishop, high councilor, and high priest, is to be ordained by the direction of a high council or general conference.

Not all the parts that I bolded. Are those not things that a bishop does in a personal interview?

There is more I can expound on this line of thought and further scriptures I can quote, but for now this shall suffice. This serves as the foundation for why we confess to Bishops for our more serious sins. Bishops are to expound, exhort, warn, teach, aid in repentance, etc. And on top of that they have the additional responsibility of caring for the congregation (Bishop's storehouse stuff & fast offering), overseeing the physical ordinances (President of the Priests Quorum), and judging the worthiness of the local membership (Judge of Israel) when necessary and directed by God. That is where the whole bit about having interviews with bishops come from (at least in part).

There are other scriptures that talk about how we must bring those who have made serious sin before the elders of the church... well guess what, the term elder can be another term to refer to JUDGES. Bishops, for all intents and purposes, do usually count as an elders (cause most of them are High Priests which is a higher office than elder).

Perhaps this has been dealt with, but I'll ask anyway.

Suppose a guy named Steve fornicates ALOT , drinks, whatever. He grew up LDS, was ordained a deacon, teacher, priest etc. and yet he went astray at some point.

Say he one day after several years of this lifestyle he decides to turn to God. Maybe it takes him a day, maybe a few days, weeks months, eventually God fills him with Fire and Holy Ghost and he is given instant knowledge by the Power of the Holy Ghost that he has been cleansed of all his sins and forgiven.

Must he still speak with the Bishop and confess?

Stahura wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 6:52 pm

Durzan wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 4:27 pm

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 2:29 pm It is written no where that Christ's forgiveness is dependent on a bishop's forgiveness, or for that matter, any man's forgiveness. Other than, we must forgive those who trespass against us, that we may be forgiven.

Besides, your very impulse to defend such a teaching paints you into a corner. What corner? The corner defined as "we need some priest to obtain Christ's forgiveness." You want to defend that? You want to argue for that?

If not, clarify what you're arguing for please.

Your assertion that Confession to the Bishop is the Bishop being the one to forgive you is false. The fact that you conflate confession to the bishop with forgiveness is a gross misunderstanding on your part.

Christ is the end all be all of forgiveness, you got that part right, but the Bishop isn't and never has been the one who forgives you. He is merely fulfilling a the role of being a common judge in Israel as established in the D&C. Helping people repent is part of his duties as a priesthood holder, and judging people's worthiness is part of his specific duties as both as the Bishop. IE, its his responsibility to oversee the physical administration of the repentance process of those who have committed serious sin. The Bishop doesn't forgive you, God does... however, sin comes with consequences, and those consequences need to be administered, particularly if they are for a severe sin.

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 2:29 pm You got a DC quote? No you don't.

I thought the references were rather obvious, since we are talking about a role that is clearly defined in the D&C. Actually, I got quite a few scriptures that I can draw upon to back up my assertion.

The Bishop is the President of the Aaronic Priesthood as established in D&C 107:13-15.

13 The second priesthood is called the Priesthood of Aaron, because it was conferred upon Aaron and his seed, throughout all their generations.

14 Why it is called the lesser priesthood is because it is an appendage to the greater, or the Melchizedek Priesthood, and has power in administering outward ordinances.

15 The bishopric is the presidency of this priesthood, and holds the keys or authority of the same.

As President of the Aaronic Priesthood, the Bishop is in charge of overseeing the administration of the duties of the Aaronic priesthood in a ward, He is also the president of the Priests Quorum in a ward. A Bishop inherits all the duties, powers, and responsibilities of all offices of the Aaronic Priesthood; If the bishop is a High Priest, then he also inherits all the duties, powers, and responsibilities of being an elder and High Priest (and thus the responsibilities of a Melkezideck Priesthood holder as well). Some of the general duties of the priesthood are given in D&C 20:38-67, all of which apply to the bishop as well.

38 The duty of the elders, priests, teachers, deacons, and members of the church of Christ—An apostle is an elder, and it is his calling to baptize;

39 And to ordain other elders, priests, teachers, and deacons;

40 And to administer bread and wine—the emblems of the flesh and blood of Christ—

41 And to confirm those who are baptized into the church, by the laying on of hands for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, according to the scriptures;

42 And to teach, expound, exhort, baptize, and watch over the church;

43 And to confirm the church by the laying on of the hands, and the giving of the Holy Ghost;

44 And to take the lead of all meetings.

45 The elders are to conduct the meetings as they are led by the Holy Ghost, according to the commandments and revelations of God.

46 The priest’s duty is to preach, teach, expound, exhort, and baptize, and administer the sacrament,

47 And visit the house of each member, and exhort them to pray vocally and in secret and attend to all family duties.

48 And he may also ordain other priests, teachers, and deacons.

49 And he is to take the lead of meetings when there is no elder present;

50 But when there is an elder present, he is only to preach, teach, expound, exhort, and baptize,

51 And visit the house of each member, exhorting them to pray vocally and in secret and attend to all family duties.

52 In all these duties the priest is to assist the elder if occasion requires.

53 The teacher’s duty is to watch over the church always, and be with and strengthen them;

54 And see that there is no iniquity in the church, neither hardness with each other, neither lying, backbiting, nor evil speaking;

55 And see that the church meet together often, and also see that all the members do their duty.

56 And he is to take the lead of meetings in the absence of the elder or priest—

57 And is to be assisted always, in all his duties in the church, by the deacons, if occasion requires.

58 But neither teachers nor deacons have authority to baptize, administer the sacrament, or lay on hands;

59 They are, however, to warn, expound, exhort, and teach, and invite all to come unto Christ.

60 Every elder, priest, teacher, or deacon is to be ordained according to the gifts and callings of God unto him; and he is to be ordained by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is in the one who ordains him.

61 The several elders composing this church of Christ are to meet in conference once in three months, or from time to time as said conferences shall direct or appoint;

62 And said conferences are to do whatever church business is necessary to be done at the time.

63 The elders are to receive their licenses from other elders, by vote of the church to which they belong, or from the conferences.

64 Each priest, teacher, or deacon, who is ordained by a priest, may take a certificate from him at the time, which certificate, when presented to an elder, shall entitle him to a license, which shall authorize him to perform the duties of his calling, or he may receive it from a conference.

65 No person is to be ordained to any office in this church, where there is a regularly organized branch of the same, without the vote of that church;

66 But the presiding elders, traveling bishops, high councilors, high priests, and elders, may have the privilege of ordaining, where there is no branch of the church that a vote may be called.

67 Every president of the high priesthood (or presiding elder), bishop, high councilor, and high priest, is to be ordained by the direction of a high council or general conference.

Not all the parts that I bolded. Are those not things that a bishop does in a personal interview?

There is more I can expound on this line of thought and further scriptures I can quote, but for now this shall suffice. This serves as the foundation for why we confess to Bishops for our more serious sins. Bishops are to expound, exhort, warn, teach, aid in repentance, etc. And on top of that they have the additional responsibility of caring for the congregation (Bishop's storehouse stuff & fast offering), overseeing the physical ordinances (President of the Priests Quorum), and judging the worthiness of the local membership (Judge of Israel) when necessary and directed by God. That is where the whole bit about having interviews with bishops come from (at least in part).

There are other scriptures that talk about how we must bring those who have made serious sin before the elders of the church... well guess what, the term elder can be another term to refer to JUDGES. Bishops, for all intents and purposes, do usually count as an elders (cause most of them are High Priests which is a higher office than elder).

Perhaps this has been dealt with, but I'll ask anyway.

Suppose a guy named Steve fornicates ALOT , drinks, whatever. He grew up LDS, was ordained a deacon, teacher, priest etc. and yet he went astray at some point.

Say he one day after several years of this lifestyle he decides to turn to God. Maybe it takes him a day, maybe a few days, weeks months, eventually God fills him with Fire and Holy Ghost and he is given instant knowledge by the Power of the Holy Ghost that he has been cleansed of all his sins and forgiven.

Must he still speak with the Bishop and confess?

14. Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

Apperantly he is not good to go unless the priesthood authorities resolve his sins. Sorry Steve.

Hie'ing to Kolob wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 5:17 pm

natasha wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 1:46 pm
No Bishop has the authority to FORGIVE.....his stewardship is to help someone who might be making a confession on his/her path of repentance.

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

Probably more in the context of what's taught in the Book of Mormon-

29 Therefore I say unto you, Go; and whosoever transgresseth against me, him shall ye judge according to the sins which he has committed; and if he confess his sins before thee and me, and repenteth in the sincerity of his heart, him shall ye forgive, and I will forgive him also.

See- confess to the Priesthood authority and to God.

A lot of people who hate the church but claim to love the Book of Mormon are either completely ignorant of it's teachings or they're dishonest. The mental gymnastics those people must suffer through is unnecessary.

shadow wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 8:38 pm

Hie'ing to Kolob wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 5:17 pm

natasha wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 1:46 pm
No Bishop has the authority to FORGIVE.....his stewardship is to help someone who might be making a confession on his/her path of repentance.

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

Probably more in the context of what's taught in the Book of Mormon-

29 Therefore I say unto you, Go; and whosoever transgresseth against me, him shall ye judge according to the sins which he has committed; and if he confess his sins before thee and me, and repenteth in the sincerity of his heart, him shall ye forgive, and I will forgive him also.

See- confess to the Priesthood authority and to God.

A lot of people who hate the church but claim to love the Book of Mormon are either completely ignorant of it's teachings or they're dishonest. The mental gymnastics those people must suffer through is unnecessary.

Anybody can do this, but I've already debunked your interpretation so thoroughly in another thread that the fact you still bring this up raises the question of the sincerity and integrity of your postings here.

Alma is not a bishop. Bishops are not Alma. And yet you deceitfully apparently try to equate the two, despite being corrected.

Alma DOES have a special relationship with the Lord. In this case he actually speaks for the Lord, literally. He is on the Lord's errand.

What bishop do you assert is literally chosen by the Lord and is on His errand?

Your sophistry is self-condemning. And I believe unbecoming.

topcat wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 8:51 pm

shadow wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 8:38 pm

Hie'ing to Kolob wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 5:17 pm

natasha wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 1:46 pm
No Bishop has the authority to FORGIVE.....his stewardship is to help someone who might be making a confession on his/her path of repentance.

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

Probably more in the context of what's taught in the Book of Mormon-

29 Therefore I say unto you, Go; and whosoever transgresseth against me, him shall ye judge according to the sins which he has committed; and if he confess his sins before thee and me, and repenteth in the sincerity of his heart, him shall ye forgive, and I will forgive him also.

See- confess to the Priesthood authority and to God.

A lot of people who hate the church but claim to love the Book of Mormon are either completely ignorant of it's teachings or they're dishonest. The mental gymnastics those people must suffer through is unnecessary.

Anybody can do this, but I've already debunked your interpretation so thoroughly in another thread that the fact you still bring this up raises the question of the sincerity and integrity of your postings here.

Alma is not a bishop. Bishops are not Alma. And yet you deceitfully apparently try to equate the two, despite being corrected.

Alma DOES have a special relationship with the Lord. In this case he actually speaks for the Lord, literally. He is on the Lord's errand.

What bishop do you assert is literally chosen by the Lord and is on His errand?

Your sophistry is self-condemning. And I believe unbecoming.

Thanks for the laugh.
When have you ever EVER debunked any of Shadows "interpretations"? In your dreams?
He takes down every argument you make, every time and with complete ease. I believe your post here deserves a complaint to a moderator. You make so many personal attacks you would think they were going out of style. You call Shadow insincere, lacking in integrity, deceitful, and someone with self condemning sophistry.

We will see who is actually self condemning himself, OK?

shadow wrote: ↑March 8th, 2019, 8:38 pm
A lot of people who hate the church but claim to love the Book of Mormon are either completely ignorant of it's teachings or they're dishonest. The mental gymnastics those people must suffer through is unnecessary.

Shadow,

A couple things...

1) If your interpretation of these events indicates private confession of sins to bishops, why didn't Joseph Smith draw the connection that is so obvious to you? Actually, the early Church leaders saw various types of public confessions as appropriate for things like baptism, "I'm a sinner...". The Church established a court or council experience to settle disputes between members and of members against the church. Forgiveness was often sought and granted between neighbors and friends. This is nothing like today's private bishop confessionals.

2) The concept of someone else "assessing" your worthiness was a product of the Utah Reformation also known as Mormon Reformation. A truly crazy period in Church history. It was an intense time with polygamy being forced upon the people unabashed. In the 1860s men in the office of teacher (not 14 year old boys), would travel home to home and ask 25-30 questions ranging from farming, polygamy, family, hygiene, sabbath activities, adherence to Church policy, etc. The purpose was to assess a members' commitment to the Church and identify any that could be seen as disloyal. This practice continued to evolve with bishops taking on roles very different than originally prescribed under Joseph. They became spiritual as well as temporal leaders and slowly this "assessment" and what turned into forced/voluntary confessionals with bishops was born (over decades).