Potential changes forthcoming

[John Tavner]

The same thought applies. Scripture is scripture and isn't influenced by what man thinks.

How does it apply?

I don't understand your other statement. Its too cryptic for me. Can you please clarify what you mean and how that last statement of yours is relevant, please.

-Finrock

No, I will not. I was clear enough. If you really desire to know how it applies (or doesn't) the Lord will answer your prayers (james 1:5) if done with real intent (Moroni 10:4).

Have a good night, Finrock.

Ok. You were not clear enough for me.

The Lord wants me to ask you to clarify because these are your thoughts and ideas.

-Finrock

Here is the clarification:
Matt 6: 1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2. Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4.That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."

[Col. Flagg]

This is a list of potential changes that may be forthcoming, possibly as early as April GC according to sources with contacts at the COB - thought I'd post it for discussion...

1. Church trying to make room for members to partake of Coffee and Tea
2. Having the Garment worn inside the temple only
3. To revamp the Missionary system making Service Missions and/or Local Missions prominent
4. Decentralize the financial responsibilities of the Church geographically.
5. Women will be given significant increased roles (Women giving blessings to be formally seen as approved), recent change for Mothers of Young Children to serve as ordinance workers for example of a small change heading that direction.
6. Increase dramatically in visible charitable giving to outside charities and outside humanitarian efforts
7. Changes to the office/mode of operation of Patriarch being discussed
8. Heavenly Mother will be given a significantly increased role in the conversation and theology within correlated Mormonism.
9. Significant changes made to ensure Bishops and Stake Presidents receive significant training. (Anything from multiple weeks of in-depth training to even a full-time trained clergy in regards to Bishops and Stake Presidents)
10. RS General Presidency continually has its visibility increased and effort made to add value to their voices and the voice of women. (while maintaining the top 15’s own authority and nepotism to ultimately lead the Church)
11. Create a group of women that would act similarly to the quorums of Seventy (travel and be involved in committees and have a voice in decision making at levels lower than the top 15)
12. Age for women going on missions to be lowered to 18 as well or men moved back up to 19 to make them equal in this regard.
13. Separate Marriages from Sealing to allow a couple to be married publicly and sealed immediately afterward in a separate act.
14. Additional Policy adjustments to protect the Church’s public image in Sex abuse cases.
15. I was missing a #15 in the audio but will add it here – You're going to see further adjustments to the scriptures to remove sections of language from the D&C, heading etc. and or add in language to headings ect. to confront the growing evidence against the former claims of the Church and a growing discomfort with our overreaching.
16. The Ward Library and the calling of Librarian eliminated in areas that have quality access to technology.
17. Adjust callings that have room to not require Priesthood to allow for female leadership (Ex: Sunday School Presidency)
18. Do away with or control who speaks in Fast and Testimony Meeting
19. Allow equivalent aged Girls to pass the Sacrament where the congregation lacks adequate priesthood.
20. Remove multiple cultural boundaries imposed as Mormonism but which are acknowledged as American culture and unnecessary. (Ex: allowing a wider range of instruments used in Church meetings)
21. A New Handbook of instruction is coming
22. Temple Recommend bar-codes will be connected to a photo so the uses of recommends by someone other than who the recommend belongs to can be thwarted.
23. Young Adult/Older Teen service Projects away from home that give a young member a significant experience making the world better but also connected directly to the Church. A mini service mission per se
24. There are now concrete discussions occurring asking how we move towards more inclusivity towards LGBTQ members.

Why would you not include the source of this?

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/201 ... some-rest/

I was going to mention Bill but decided I'd better not since it might turn off a few people owing to his recent disciplinary court and ex-communication (even though from what I understand, his Stake President was on his side and didn't feel he had done anything wrong and was only acting on pressure from above). I learned about the list from a friend who passed it along to me - Bill claims he has contacts who keep him apprised of what is being discussed at the church level.

[Finrock]

How does it apply?

I don't understand your other statement. Its too cryptic for me. Can you please clarify what you mean and how that last statement of yours is relevant, please.

-Finrock

No, I will not. I was clear enough. If you really desire to know how it applies (or doesn't) the Lord will answer your prayers (james 1:5) if done with real intent (Moroni 10:4).

Have a good night, Finrock.

Ok. You were not clear enough for me.

The Lord wants me to ask you to clarify because these are your thoughts and ideas.

-Finrock

Here is the clarification:
Matt 6: 1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2. Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4.That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."

Clarification means to provide more detail and understanding to what has already been said.

You may not remember but you already posted this scripture. Also, to be clear, I was asking clarification for the second statement.

Please and thank you.

-Finrock

[Hie'ing to Kolob]

The Church, in this case, is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.

What if it increases its visible donations to charities, but, also increases its invisible donations to charities, etc.?

-Finrock

I've got mixed feelings on this as I'm under the impression that tithing is to be used by divine decree toward a very specific purpose.

If the church is giving tithing money to charity, I'd probably prefer to give a portion of my tithing to charities of my choosing. On the other hand, a step toward more Christian charity and less over the top temples and shopping malls is welcome change.

[Hie'ing to Kolob]

I welcome any and all change to bring us toward a more rational Christ-centered faith. The list is pretty optimistic. The law of moses-esque coffee and tea ban is pretty irrational and I'd love to see that go. Garments gone would be a huge move, that I dont think will happen. Something big needs to happen with missionary service, it's looking a lot like the old home teaching program was...

[Dusty52]

No 2
Wearing garments only in the temple doesn't make any sense
One of the main purposes of wearing garments is to remember on a daily basis covenants made in the temple, to remind the wearers of the temple! Why would you want to take that away?

[righteousrepublic]

I would add compulsory background checks for all who serve as: stake presidents, bishops, youth leaders, everyone who works in primary and all missionaries

Also all missions will be for a period of 18 months for all elders and sisters

Background checks? Is this going to stop someone from going ballistic and throwing a hand grenade into a church filled with people?
Knowing who someone is don't mean squat. Knowing who someone is provides no guarantees of that person not losing it and doing something they wouldn't ordinarily do. Knowing who someone is isn't going to stop a potential sex offender from coming out of the closet and doing something stupid after holding it all in for years and years.

God doesn't use forced obedience, and he may forgive someone that made bad choices, whereas, us humans like to deride those who made mistakes and don't like to let prior sinners go on with their lives in peace. And here is what God says about that:

D&C 64:9
9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

Mosiah 26:31
31 And ye shall also forgive one another your trespasses; for verily I say unto you, he that forgiveth not his neighbor’s trespasses when he says that he repents, the same hath brought himself under condemnation.

We must be careful, because the pointed finger just might be pointing at oneself. Mosiah 4:30

[Dusty52]

Having background checks is a basic safeguarding issue, don't you get that??'

[Rose Garden]

I would add compulsory background checks for all who serve as: stake presidents, bishops, youth leaders, everyone who works in primary and all missionaries

Also all missions will be for a period of 18 months for all elders and sisters

Background checks? Is this going to stop someone from going ballistic and throwing a hand grenade into a church filled with people?
Knowing who someone is don't mean squat. Knowing who someone is provides no guarantees of that person not losing it and doing something they wouldn't ordinarily do. Knowing who someone is isn't going to stop a potential sex offender from coming out of the closet and doing something stupid after holding it all in for years and years.

God doesn't use forced obedience, and he may forgive someone that made bad choices, whereas, us humans like to deride those who made mistakes and don't like to let prior sinners go on with their lives in peace. And here is what God says about that:

D&C 64:9
9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

Mosiah 26:31
31 And ye shall also forgive one another your trespasses; for verily I say unto you, he that forgiveth not his neighbor’s trespasses when he says that he repents, the same hath brought himself under condemnation.

We must be careful, because the pointed finger just might be pointing at oneself. Mosiah 4:30

Forgiving doesn't mean blindly trusting someone who has previously done something seriously wrong. Forgiveness is letting go of the negative feelings you have because of hurtful things others have done. It's best done after you've made certain you are safe from being harmed again by the same person, which may mean separating yourself from them, getting a restraining order, etc.

Background checks don't guarantee that no harm will occur but it does help lessen the risk. The trauma caused to children by abuse haunts them the rest of their life and affects their belief in God. It's worth it to take whatever steps you can to keep kids safe from harm.

[Robin Hood]

Having background checks is a basic safeguarding issue, don't you get that??'

Totally agree.
When I served as bishop I had background checks (DBS) done on all the Primary teachers/leaders etc.

[gkearney]

Having background checks is a basic safeguarding issue, don't you get that??'

Totally agree.
When I served as bishop I had background checks (DBS) done on all the Primary teachers/leaders etc.

In Australia, New Zealand and I believe the U.K. as well this is a legal mandate. As a clerk in Australia I had to maintain proof of these checks and was audited one a year by the police to ensure we were in compliance. These checks were required of everyone who came into contact with children including the members of the bishopric. In fact our stake had a calling for a new bishop go south when, after being call, sustained, and set apart he was unable to obtain a Working With Children clearance. They really should have had him get the clearance first and then called him. As it was they had to scramble around and release him and find someone else.

[Robin Hood]

This is a list of potential changes that may be forthcoming, possibly as early as April GC according to sources with contacts at the COB - thought I'd post it for discussion...

1. Church trying to make room for members to partake of Coffee and Tea
Could see this happening.
2. Having the Garment worn inside the temple only
No chance
3. To revamp the Missionary system making Service Missions and/or Local Missions prominent
Already happened
4. Decentralize the financial responsibilities of the Church geographically.
This is already partially true in that many countries require donations to be spent and accounted for in that country
5. Women will be given significant increased roles (Women giving blessings to be formally seen as approved), recent change for Mothers of Young Children to serve as ordinance workers for example of a small change heading that direction.
No problem there, and it is already happening
6. Increase dramatically in visible charitable giving to outside charities and outside humanitarian efforts
I have some reservations in this regard
7. Changes to the office/mode of operation of Patriarch being discussed
I think Patriarch's need to have a more prominent role within the stake. They are, after all, prophets.
8. Heavenly Mother will be given a significantly increased role in the conversation and theology within correlated Mormonism.
I am totally opposed to this
9. Significant changes made to ensure Bishops and Stake Presidents receive significant training. (Anything from multiple weeks of in-depth training to even a full-time trained clergy in regards to Bishops and Stake Presidents)
Impractical.
10. RS General Presidency continually has its visibility increased and effort made to add value to their voices and the voice of women. (while maintaining the top 15’s own authority and nepotism to ultimately lead the Church)
Already happening
11. Create a group of women that would act similarly to the quorums of Seventy (travel and be involved in committees and have a voice in decision making at levels lower than the top 15)
Won't happen
12. Age for women going on missions to be lowered to 18 as well or men moved back up to 19 to make them equal in this regard.
Both should be 19
13. Separate Marriages from Sealing to allow a couple to be married publicly and sealed immediately afterward in a separate act.
This is the case in most countries. The church in the US and Canada adopting this is a no-brainer
14. Additional Policy adjustments to protect the Church’s public image in Sex abuse cases.
Don't know what that means
15. I was missing a #15 in the audio but will add it here – You're going to see further adjustments to the scriptures to remove sections of language from the D&C, heading etc. and or add in language to headings ect. to confront the growing evidence against the former claims of the Church and a growing discomfort with our overreaching.
No chance
16. The Ward Library and the calling of Librarian eliminated in areas that have quality access to technology.
We haven't had a ward librarian for years
17. Adjust callings that have room to not require Priesthood to allow for female leadership (Ex: Sunday School Presidency)
Agree with this
18. Do away with or control who speaks in Fast and Testimony Meeting
I can see pro's and cons
19. Allow equivalent aged Girls to pass the Sacrament where the congregation lacks adequate priesthood.
This should happen. It's long overdue.
20. Remove multiple cultural boundaries imposed as Mormonism but which are acknowledged as American culture and unnecessary. (Ex: allowing a wider range of instruments used in Church meetings)
Don't really know what this means in practice
21. A New Handbook of instruction is coming
Wouldn't be the first time
22. Temple Recommend bar-codes will be connected to a photo so the uses of recommends by someone other than who the recommend belongs to can be thwarted.
Administrative nightmare
23. Young Adult/Older Teen service Projects away from home that give a young member a significant experience making the world better but also connected directly to the Church. A mini service mission per se
Just like the Community of Christ do. A kind of Peace Corps
24. There are now concrete discussions occurring asking how we move towards more inclusivity towards LGBTQ members.
Would want to know what "inclusivity" means in this case

[Juliet]

The garment issue I can understand if the church has been doing surveys and found them causing issues. I never had issues in UT but where I live now it is more humid and 2 hours just walking outside doesn't work with a layer of moisture collectors in places that need to be kept dry.

If women are going to be given extra roles beneath men, it is going to be an insult. Every apostle has a wife. Why can't she be part of him, the way God made women to function, at her husband's side not in competition. I would like to see the brethren include their wives in all the church work they do. Not call a bunch of women to work underneath them and separate from their husbands. God made women to help men so a man and wife can work together as a team. If it works for leading the family why not for leading the church?

I bet Heavenly Mother works right along with Heavenly Father in the work that He does, as opposed to being assigned a job to do beneath him and copying him so she doesn't feel left out. That is seriously insulting and I would rather women not be included if that is how it will come about.

[John Tavner]

No, I will not. I was clear enough. If you really desire to know how it applies (or doesn't) the Lord will answer your prayers (james 1:5) if done with real intent (Moroni 10:4).

Have a good night, Finrock.

Ok. You were not clear enough for me.

The Lord wants me to ask you to clarify because these are your thoughts and ideas.

-Finrock

Here is the clarification:
Matt 6: 1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2. Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4.That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."

Clarification means to provide more detail and understanding to what has already been said.

You may not remember but you already posted this scripture. Also, to be clear, I was asking clarification for the second statement.

Please and thank you.

-Finrock

I was referring to prayer and revelation about the scripture which I posted which was my clarification about the second statement. No, I will not clarify the second statement anymore, it is clear enough.

You're welcome.

[Finrock]

Ok. You were not clear enough for me.

The Lord wants me to ask you to clarify because these are your thoughts and ideas.

-Finrock

Here is the clarification:
Matt 6: 1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2. Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4.That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."

Clarification means to provide more detail and understanding to what has already been said.

You may not remember but you already posted this scripture. Also, to be clear, I was asking clarification for the second statement.

Please and thank you.

-Finrock

I was referring to prayer and revelation about the scripture which I posted which was my clarification about the second statement. No, I will not clarify the second statement anymore, it is clear enough.

You're welcome.

It makes sense that its clear enough for you because these are your thoughts and your ideas and you know what you are thinking, but, I'm not in your mind and I don't know what you are thinking. It is not clear enough for me.

I'm baffled by your resistance to communicate clearly, but, whatever.

Your criticism of option six remains unfounded and baseless.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

I would add compulsory background checks for all who serve as: stake presidents, bishops, youth leaders, everyone who works in primary and all missionaries

Also all missions will be for a period of 18 months for all elders and sisters

Background checks? Is this going to stop someone from going ballistic and throwing a hand grenade into a church filled with people?
Knowing who someone is don't mean squat. Knowing who someone is provides no guarantees of that person not losing it and doing something they wouldn't ordinarily do. Knowing who someone is isn't going to stop a potential sex offender from coming out of the closet and doing something stupid after holding it all in for years and years.

God doesn't use forced obedience, and he may forgive someone that made bad choices, whereas, us humans like to deride those who made mistakes and don't like to let prior sinners go on with their lives in peace. And here is what God says about that:

D&C 64:9
9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

Mosiah 26:31
31 And ye shall also forgive one another your trespasses; for verily I say unto you, he that forgiveth not his neighbor’s trespasses when he says that he repents, the same hath brought himself under condemnation.

We must be careful, because the pointed finger just might be pointing at oneself. Mosiah 4:30

Background checks and background investigations are proven methods of weeding out individuals who can't be trusted. Its used by industry and governments on a regular bases. Knowing who someone is means a lot, especially when they are to be placed in to a position of great trust. Of course background checks are not perfect, but, they are proven to be effective at mitigating risk.

Someone who has a history of molesting or abusing children should not be placed in to a position where they can potentially abuse and molest again, even if they have repented. The risk is too great as has been demonstrated by the Catholic Church's response to sexual abuse by clergy. The Catholic Church wanted to "rehabilitate", move people around, and keep things internal. This failed and hundreds of children were harmed as a result of the Catholic Church's malfeasance and negligence. That is horrible and should not have occurred. The severity of the Catholic child abuse scandal is directly related to the Catholic Church attempting to adopt the stance that you are advocating. Based on observable proof and evidence, its not good.

-Finrock

[John Tavner]

Here is the clarification:
Matt 6: 1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2. Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4.That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."

Clarification means to provide more detail and understanding to what has already been said.

You may not remember but you already posted this scripture. Also, to be clear, I was asking clarification for the second statement.

Please and thank you.

-Finrock

I was referring to prayer and revelation about the scripture which I posted which was my clarification about the second statement. No, I will not clarify the second statement anymore, it is clear enough.

You're welcome.

It makes sense that its clear enough for you because these are your thoughts and your ideas and you know what you are thinking, but, I'm not in your mind and I don't know what you are thinking. It is not clear enough for me.

I'm baffled by your resistance to communicate clearly, but, whatever.

Your criticism of option six remains unfounded and baseless.

-Finrock

Have a blessed day, Finrock

[Finrock]

Clarification means to provide more detail and understanding to what has already been said.

You may not remember but you already posted this scripture. Also, to be clear, I was asking clarification for the second statement.

Please and thank you.

-Finrock

I was referring to prayer and revelation about the scripture which I posted which was my clarification about the second statement. No, I will not clarify the second statement anymore, it is clear enough.

You're welcome.

It makes sense that its clear enough for you because these are your thoughts and your ideas and you know what you are thinking, but, I'm not in your mind and I don't know what you are thinking. It is not clear enough for me.

I'm baffled by your resistance to communicate clearly, but, whatever.

Your criticism of option six remains unfounded and baseless.

-Finrock

Have a blessed day, Finrock

Thanks, I am having a blessed day.

-Finrock

[Cheetos]

I find it absurd that someone could actually believe they would do away with the wearing of the Holy garment outside the temple. Our bodies, having been cleansed, are housed within the holy garment. It would defy all God has revealed to do away with wearing it.

[Benaishtart]

The Church, in this case, is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.

What if it increases its visible donations to charities, but, also increases its invisible donations to charities, etc.?

-Finrock

I've got mixed feelings on this as I'm under the impression that tithing is to be used by divine decree toward a very specific purpose.

If the church is giving tithing money to charity, I'd probably prefer to give a portion of my tithing to charities of my choosing. On the other hand, a step toward more Christian charity and less over the top temples and shopping malls is welcome change.

The Lord can do whatever he wants with his money! Don’t you remember the costly ointments that were used to rub his feet. It’s people who complain about this kind of stuff that make it so the church isn’t open about their finances. If we really didn’t care I bet they really wouldn’t mind telling us.

[Benaishtart]

Almost everyone pushing for these outlandish changes like coffee and no garments are wolves not even in sheep’s clothing. You don’t even try to hide it any more your so brash about it.

[Robin Hood]

Almost everyone pushing for these outlandish changes like coffee and no garments are wolves not even in sheep’s clothing. You don’t even try to hide it any more your so brash about it.

I agree with you to a certain extent, though I think you are batting on a sticky wicket when it comes to coffee/tea etc. The WoW isn't a commandment, as we know, so making the don'ts mandatory, while ignoring the do's, is inconsistent and contrary to the spirit of the revelation. We have clearly Pharisaicalized it and I suspect God is not best pleased.

[Rose Garden]

I find it absurd that someone could actually believe they would do away with the wearing of the Holy garment outside the temple. Our bodies, having been cleansed, are housed within the holy garment. It would defy all God has revealed to do away with wearing it.

It seems absurd at first glance to those who have been brought up to believe in the power of the temple garments but I believe there is a higher understanding available that isn't apparent while church members still feel obligated to wear the garment at all times. Some have said the "coat of skins" given Adam and Eve were actually their physical bodies. Imagine giving your physical body the care you currently offer your temple garments. I would imagine such a thing would greatly increase the Spirit among the Lord's people.

[The Airbender]

Policy Shmolicy. I fail to see how any of these changes would really matter at all besides making waves among the members.

None of these changes involves the Gathering of Israel or the Establishment of Zion. We are not moving any closer to the mandates given of God formerly. Aside from the emphasis of the name of the Savior, these are all just petty changes to micro-manange wards and appease the world.

[righteousrepublic]

Having background checks is a basic safeguarding issue, don't you get that??'

I understand tyranny very well. I understand assuming someone as guilty until proven innocent. I understand that people in the church as well as everywhere no longer express love and the benefit of the doubt. I understand that putting someone through a ringer is supposed to provide trust and contentment for everyone but the suspect. I understand the level of animosity coming from people who don't like the church and are very adamant about expressing their views. Forced obedience and adherence. Oh, I get it, all right.

God does't even work that way.