"The End of High Fertility is Near"

[Benaishtart]

Getting a vasectomy is wrong! How have changed so much since Saturday’s Warrior? The church needs to do something ASAP to promote having kids. President Nelson had 10 kids. He knows the value of having a posterity and the true power of the priesthood. I can’t understood how someone would make someone infertile. It prevents their increase. Why expect to have increase in the eternities now if you eliminate it hear. It’s high time we start teaching the real Doctrinen of the Family again.

where does it say that vasectomy is wrong? I have never read that.

You don’t even need to read that. Anyone who understands the doctrine of the family clearly would understand that without question.

[LadyT]

Getting a vasectomy is wrong! How have changed so much since Saturday’s Warrior? The church needs to do something ASAP to promote having kids. President Nelson had 10 kids. He knows the value of having a posterity and the true power of the priesthood. I can’t understood how someone would make someone infertile. It prevents their increase. Why expect to have increase in the eternities now if you eliminate it hear. It’s high time we start teaching the real Doctrinen of the Family again.

where does it say that vasectomy is wrong? I have never read that.

You don’t even need to read that. Anyone who understands the doctrine of the family clearly would understand that without question.

I guess I don't understand that then.
How is it wrong to be done having kids? It's a cheap, liable form of permanent birth control. Not every woman can have baby after baby. Pregnancy can kill.

[Fiannan]

where does it say that vasectomy is wrong? I have never read that.

I believe it is even in the Holy Handbook.

[Fiannan]

I remember reading a quote from a prominent Humanist in the 1980s. Quite prophetically he stated that by the early 2000s the very concept of hetero and homo in regards to sexuality would begin to vanish and, soon afterwards, the genitals on another person would no longer matter in regards to relationships. Why? He said that once you divorce sex from reproduction that would be the natural course of human societal evolution.

He was right.

[LadyT]

where does it say that vasectomy is wrong? I have never read that.

I believe it is even in the Holy Handbook.

That's not something I have ever had to read. There is nothing on the church's website about it.

[Fiannan]

where does it say that vasectomy is wrong? I have never read that.

I believe it is even in the Holy Handbook.

That's not something I have ever had to read. There is nothing on the church's website about it.

Not hard to find. All I can say is that what attitudes we have in this life will carry on into the next. And we will never be placed in a kingdom (or degree within the kingdom) that we are most comfortable with. If people try to avoid reproducing here then why the heck will they want to be in a kingdom in which they are expected to reproduce for eternity?

[Michelle]

where does it say that vasectomy is wrong? I have never read that.

I believe it is even in the Holy Handbook.

That's not something I have ever had to read. There is nothing on the church's website about it.

From the Church's website/Handbook 2

21.4.15

Surgical Sterilization (Including Vasectomy)
The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization should be considered only if (1) medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health or (2) birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer.

https://www.lds.org/study/manual/handbo ... e_number59

[LadyT]

where does it say that vasectomy is wrong? I have never read that.

I believe it is even in the Holy Handbook.

That's not something I have ever had to read. There is nothing on the church's website about it.

Not hard to find. All I can say is that what attitudes we have in this life will carry on into the next. And we will never be placed in a kingdom (or degree within the kingdom) that we are most comfortable with. If people try to avoid reproducing here then why the heck will they want to be in a kingdom in which they are expected to reproduce for eternity?

In my case, I am done with having babies because I want to see my kids grown. I have had two doctors tell me no more babies ever. I had problems with each pregnancy. It's not safe for me or a baby to try to have any more babies. I have four living kids. I would have loved a lot of babies, nature disagreed with what I wanted.
My husband got a vasectomy. It was the easiest, safest way.

My friend has a hole in her heart. Pregnancy and labor will kill her. Both she and her husband got permanent birth control. They will try to adopt. There are lots of health related reasons for permanent birth control.

[LadyT]

where does it say that vasectomy is wrong? I have never read that.

I believe it is even in the Holy Handbook.

That's not something I have ever had to read. There is nothing on the church's website about it.

From the Church's website/Handbook 2

21.4.15

Surgical Sterilization (Including Vasectomy)
The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization should be considered only if (1) medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health or (2) birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer.

https://www.lds.org/study/manual/handbo ... e_number59

I was told the handbook is for leadership.

My bishop said that it was between my husband, me and the Lord. I have medical reasons for no more babies.

[Fiannan]

The church doesn’t have to command us in all things. People who follow the spirit intuitively know that this is anti-gospel. Any church member who lived before 2000 would be absolutely appaled at the lack of current members understanding. Why would God entrust you with building a kingdom when you want to purposely limit it here on earth? When you remove sex from procreation then it is meaningless. Without meaning you mind as well be doing it with a robot. Your views represent societal collapse at its finest wether you realize it or not.

Some people have legitimate health reasons that prevent them from having a safe pregnancy. That being said the vast majority of LDS people planning on limiting their families do so for economic reasons. Heaven forbid having a family that requires siblings to share a room. No, that just isn't right. And what about what other people think of you? Remember, on Judgement Day it is the opinions of our peer group that determines our place in the eternities. And isn't the Gospel of Madison Avenue what we are to follow today? Still wonder why some LDS don't call for the hymnbook to change the song to be more modern, like "We Thank Thee oh God for Our Profit."

Many people are more like robots today than thinking, questioning beings with analytical minds. They are the product of conditioning, just like BF Skinner's pigeons he trained to play ping pong. They work, they buy things, they watch "The View" and TV talk shows and teach their children to be good consumers. Sad.

[EmmaLee]

where does it say that vasectomy is wrong? I have never read that.

I believe it is even in the Holy Handbook.

Yeah, right next to where it says artificial insemination is wrong unless using the husband's sperm - and right next to where it says artificial insemination is always wrong for single sisters - and right next to where it says sex for a married couple is divinely approved even when they're not trying to get pregnant, etc. etc.

You can't refer to the "Holy Handbook" only when it suits YOUR particular desires or backs your beliefs, and then ignore it or try to justify things when it condemns your pet subjects. Goose/gander. As for me, I wish the CHI didn't exist, as it has effectively replaced the Holy Ghost for too many in the Church, IMO.

21.4.3 Artificial Insemination
The Church strongly discourages artificial insemination using semen from anyone but the husband. However, this is a personal matter that ultimately must be left to the judgment of the husband and wife. Responsibility for the decision rests solely upon them. Artificial insemination of single sisters is not approved. Single sisters who deliberately refuse to follow the counsel of Church leaders in this
matter are subject to Church discipline.

21.4.4 Birth Control
It is the privilege of married couples who are able to bear children to provide mortal bodies for the spirit children of God, whom they are then responsible to nurture and rear. The decision as to how many children to have and when to have them is extremely intimate and private and should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another in this matter.
Married couples should also understand that sexual relations within marriage are divinely approved not only for the purpose of procreation, but also as a way of expressing love and strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife.

[Benaishtart]

I believe it is even in the Holy Handbook.

That's not something I have ever had to read. There is nothing on the church's website about it.

Not hard to find. All I can say is that what attitudes we have in this life will carry on into the next. And we will never be placed in a kingdom (or degree within the kingdom) that we are most comfortable with. If people try to avoid reproducing here then why the heck will they want to be in a kingdom in which they are expected to reproduce for eternity?

In my case, I am done with having babies because I want to see my kids grown. I have had two doctors tell me no more babies ever. I had problems with each pregnancy. It's not safe for me or a baby to try to have any more babies. I have four living kids. I would have loved a lot of babies, nature disagreed with what I wanted.
My husband got a vasectomy. It was the easiest, safest way.

My friend has a hole in her heart. Pregnancy and labor will kill her. Both she and her husband got permanent birth control. They will try to adopt. There are lots of health related reasons for permanent birth control.

I’d rather be murdered than get a vasectomy. Infertility is death.

[Fiannan]

Yeah, right next to where it says artificial insemination is wrong unless using the husband's sperm - and right next to where it says artificial insemination is always wrong for single sisters - and right next to where it says sex for a married couple is divinely approved even when they're not trying to get pregnant, etc. etc.

No, it does not say it is always wrong, it says "The Church strongly discourages artificial insemination using semen from anyone but the husband." Note, it does not say it is a sin. It is more a practical suggestion. It carries absolutely no negative consequences. If a couple goes to their bishop and says they got donor sperm he will not withhold their temple recommend. If they say they drink coffee he just might.

And when have I said people should not have sex for such things as relaxation, bonding, exercise or just out of sheer creative desire? Never said it.

You can't refer to the "Holy Handbook" only when it suits YOUR particular desires or backs your beliefs, and then ignore it or try to justify things when it condemns your pet subjects. Goose/gander. As for me, I wish the CHI didn't exist, as it has effectively replaced the Holy Ghost for too many in the Church, IMO.

Actually, someone asked where getting castrated, well, genetically castrated, was condemned by the Church. I merely said that it was in the Holy Handbook. I do not see it as divine scripture and thus I would say it gives policy. I would speculate that policy takes into account scripture, but also pragmatism, legal vulnerabilities and other variables when discussing issues that leaders might be asked about. Of course we are also told to consult God, and if people do there will be no conflict with scripture or statements from prophets.

[LadyT]

That's not something I have ever had to read. There is nothing on the church's website about it.

Not hard to find. All I can say is that what attitudes we have in this life will carry on into the next. And we will never be placed in a kingdom (or degree within the kingdom) that we are most comfortable with. If people try to avoid reproducing here then why the heck will they want to be in a kingdom in which they are expected to reproduce for eternity?

In my case, I am done with having babies because I want to see my kids grown. I have had two doctors tell me no more babies ever. I had problems with each pregnancy. It's not safe for me or a baby to try to have any more babies. I have four living kids. I would have loved a lot of babies, nature disagreed with what I wanted.
My husband got a vasectomy. It was the easiest, safest way.

My friend has a hole in her heart. Pregnancy and labor will kill her. Both she and her husband got permanent birth control. They will try to adopt. There are lots of health related reasons for permanent birth control.

I’d rather be murdered than get a vasectomy. Infertility is death.

that's funny. Dying because of pregnancy related complications is really death.

[RocknRoll]

I’d rather be murdered than get a vasectomy. Infertility is death.

Nice. How do think that makes someone who was born infertile or became infertile due to an accident or disease feel? He now knows you’d rather be dead than be like him.

[LadyT]

where does it say that vasectomy is wrong? I have never read that.

I believe it is even in the Holy Handbook.

That's not something I have ever had to read. There is nothing on the church's website about it.

The church doesn’t have to command us in all things. People who follow the spirit intuitively know that this is anti-gospel. Any church member who lived before 2000 would be absolutely appaled at the lack of current members understanding. Why would God entrust you with building a kingdom when you want to purposely limit it here on earth? When you remove sex from procreation then it is meaningless. Without meaning you mind as well be doing it with a robot. Your views represent societal collapse at its finest wether you realize it or not.

Simply because I don't want to die trying to have another baby. I have 4 living children. I have been pregnant 11 times.
I will follow my doctors orders and what my husband and I felt when we prayed about it.

[EmmaLee]

Yeah, right next to where it says artificial insemination is wrong unless using the husband's sperm - and right next to where it says artificial insemination is always wrong for single sisters - and right next to where it says sex for a married couple is divinely approved even when they're not trying to get pregnant, etc. etc.

No, it does not say it is always wrong, it says "The Church strongly discourages artificial insemination using semen from anyone but the husband." Note, it does not say it is a sin.
Which is also the EXACT wording in regards to surgical sterilization - "The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control." Note, it does not say it is a sin. It does not say it is always wrong. EXACT same wording. That's what I meant by you can't have it both ways, which should have been obvious. It does not say sterilization is a sin any more than it says artificial insemination is a sin.

It is more a practical suggestion. It carries absolutely no negative consequences.
You have no idea if it does or not, literally, no idea. You can speak for yourself and your personal circumstances and no one else's. Same with all of us.

If a couple goes to their bishop and says they got donor sperm he will not withhold their temple recommend.
Again, you literally have zero idea if this is true or not. One bishop might, another might not.

If they say they drink coffee he just might.

And when have I said people should not have sex for such things as relaxation, bonding, exercise or just out of sheer creative desire? Never said it.
True, you haven't said that, that I've seen anyway. That was more directed toward your comrade in arms, Benaishtart, who obviously believes the only sex a married couple should have is when they are trying to conceive a baby. So I'm hoping he doesn't plan on having any more sex of any kind after his wife starts menopause, otherwise, that would make him a flaming hypocrite.

You can't refer to the "Holy Handbook" only when it suits YOUR particular desires or backs your beliefs, and then ignore it or try to justify things when it condemns your pet subjects. Goose/gander. As for me, I wish the CHI didn't exist, as it has effectively replaced the Holy Ghost for too many in the Church, IMO.

Actually, someone asked where getting castrated, well, genetically castrated, was condemned by the Church. I merely said that it was in the Holy Handbook. I do not see it as divine scripture and thus I would say it gives policy. I would speculate that policy takes into account scripture, but also pragmatism, legal vulnerabilities and other variables when discussing issues that leaders might be asked about. Of course we are also told to consult God, and if people do there will be no conflict with scripture or statements from prophets.
Agreed. As I said, I wish the CHI didn't even exist - it's a sad state of our ability to receive personal revelation (as a Church, and as members), that we even have those books, IMO.
All I'm saying is, you can't refer to what the Handbook says on one topic, but not another - either refer to it on both, or neither. And it says the EXACT same thing on both subjects (sterilization and artificial insemination).

[Fiannan]

Nice. How do think that makes someone who was born infertile or became infertile due to an accident or disease feel? He now knows you’d rather be dead than be like him.

Maybe he means it in the context of choosing something that limits your abilities. There are people who blind themselves on purpose, or pay someone to cut off their arms or legs. A person might say they would rather die than be blind or crippled but the context may be choosing to do it on purpose. Not sure.

[Fiannan]

Which is also the EXACT wording in regards to surgical sterilization - "The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control." Note, it does not say it is a sin. It does not say it is always wrong. EXACT same wording. That's what I meant by you can't have it both ways, which should have been obvious. It does not say sterilization is a sin any more than it says artificial insemination is a sin.

The Church is giving suggestions. Perhaps getting snipped is not a sin but something the Church might say you should avoid. Lots of couples change their mind - sterilization takes the choice away. Also, a man might lose his wife in an accident, due to disease or she might leave him. If he is sterile his choices, and those of a woman who might fall in love with him later, are limited.

And I can see where the Church is coming from in regards to donor sperm. Some men might feel weird raising another man's genetic offspring. Maybe that is something leaders might want people to think about. That said, a temple-worthy couple giving birth to donor-produced children, are automatically sealed to those children at birth.

I suppose if one's priority is to create families then any sort of sterilization, if one is healthy, is avoidance. In the case of donor egg or sperm that choice does afford the creation of a family. And in that case the ends justify the means for many, many people.

[Michelle]

I believe it is even in the Holy Handbook.

That's not something I have ever had to read. There is nothing on the church's website about it.

From the Church's website/Handbook 2

21.4.15

Surgical Sterilization (Including Vasectomy)
The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization should be considered only if (1) medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health or (2) birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer.

https://www.lds.org/study/manual/handbo ... e_number59

I was told the handbook is for leadership.

My bishop said that it was between my husband, me and the Lord. I have medical reasons for no more babies.

You said you had never read it and it wasn't on the church's website. I was simply providing you the link.

Not an attack, just an answer to your statement.

You are right that it is between you, your husband and the Lord. If you have medical reasons you needn't justify yourself to anonymous internet posters.

[LadyT]

That's not something I have ever had to read. There is nothing on the church's website about it.

From the Church's website/Handbook 2

21.4.15

Surgical Sterilization (Including Vasectomy)
The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization should be considered only if (1) medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health or (2) birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer.

https://www.lds.org/study/manual/handbo ... e_number59

I was told the handbook is for leadership.

My bishop said that it was between my husband, me and the Lord. I have medical reasons for no more babies.

You said you had never read it and it wasn't on the church's website. I was simply providing you the link.

Not an attack, just an answer to your statement.

You are right that it is between you, your husband and the Lord. If you have medical reasons you needn't justify yourself to anonymous internet posters.

I searched it before and it wasn't there when I searched. This was a few years ago.
I was told that the handbook is for leadership of the church. I don't see a reason for me to read it. I am not nor will ever be in the leadership.

[EmmaLee]

Which is also the EXACT wording in regards to surgical sterilization - "The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control." Note, it does not say it is a sin. It does not say it is always wrong. EXACT same wording. That's what I meant by you can't have it both ways, which should have been obvious. It does not say sterilization is a sin any more than it says artificial insemination is a sin.

The Church is giving suggestions. Perhaps getting snipped is not a sin but something the Church might say you should avoid.
That's what I'm saying. The Church's suggestions for sterilization are the EXACT same suggestions for artificial insemination (except in the case of singe women getting inseminated - they will be brought up for Church discipline). The Church doesn't say either sterilization or artificial insemination (for married couples using the husband's sperm) is a sin - and they say BOTH are to be avoided.

Lots of couples change their mind - sterilization takes the choice away.
Not always. We know two couples who changed their minds a few years after the husband had had a vasectomy. They both went back in and had it reversed and they had additional children. The reversal doesn't always work, however, so it is definitely a risk and one that should be considered very thoroughly by husband and wife.

Also, a man might lose his wife in an accident, due to disease or she might leave him. If he is sterile his choices, and those of a woman who might fall in love with him later, are limited.
That is why I do not believe a man should ever have a vasectomy. If a couple has decided that, for whatever reason(s) they need to be done having children, the wife should have a tubal ligation rather than the husband having a vasectomy. The wife is the one who goes through all the physical experiences of pregnancy, birth, nursing, etc. so if her body cannot do that anymore, and especially if it would literally kill her to do so (making her existing children motherless - a wicked and cruel thing for anyone to suggest is a "good" thing), then she should go through the sterilization, not the husband, IMO.

I suppose if one's priority is to create families then any sort of sterilization, if one is healthy, is avoidance.
Agreed.

[Fiannan]

That's what I'm saying. The Church's suggestions for sterilization are the EXACT same suggestions for artificial insemination (except in the case of singe women getting inseminated - they will be brought up for Church discipline). The Church doesn't say either sterilization or artificial insemination (for married couples using the husband's sperm) is a sin - and they say BOTH are to be avoided.

First, have you ever heard of a woman going in for AI getting disciplined? I imagine you would read about it on the front pages of the mainstream media real fast.

And the Church does not say that using sperm other than the husband's or an egg other than the wife's is a sin either. They actually don't say a single woman is sinning, in the conventional sense of the word, only that they are subject to Church discipline. The word "sin" is not used.

[Michelle]

From the Church's website/Handbook 2

I was told the handbook is for leadership.

My bishop said that it was between my husband, me and the Lord. I have medical reasons for no more babies.

You said you had never read it and it wasn't on the church's website. I was simply providing you the link.

Not an attack, just an answer to your statement.

You are right that it is between you, your husband and the Lord. If you have medical reasons you needn't justify yourself to anonymous internet posters.

I searched it before and it wasn't there when I searched. This was a few years ago.
I was told that the handbook is for leadership of the church. I don't see a reason for me to read it. I am not nor will ever be in the leadership.

There are two books. One for just leadership, and this one for all of us to have access.

I can't see why you wouldn't want to know the policies of the church. There is a lot of interesting and useful information. It isn't just for leadership. It has information for all sorts of things.

[LadyT]

Which is also the EXACT wording in regards to surgical sterilization - "The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control." Note, it does not say it is a sin. It does not say it is always wrong. EXACT same wording. That's what I meant by you can't have it both ways, which should have been obvious. It does not say sterilization is a sin any more than it says artificial insemination is a sin.

The Church is giving suggestions. Perhaps getting snipped is not a sin but something the Church might say you should avoid.
That's what I'm saying. The Church's suggestions for sterilization are the EXACT same suggestions for artificial insemination (except in the case of singe women getting inseminated - they will be brought up for Church discipline). The Church doesn't say either sterilization or artificial insemination (for married couples using the husband's sperm) is a sin - and they say BOTH are to be avoided.

Lots of couples change their mind - sterilization takes the choice away.
Not always. We know two couples who changed their minds a few years after the husband had had a vasectomy. They both went back in and had it reversed and they had additional children. The reversal doesn't always work, however, so it is definitely a risk and one that should be considered very thoroughly by husband and wife.

Also, a man might lose his wife in an accident, due to disease or she might leave him. If he is sterile his choices, and those of a woman who might fall in love with him later, are limited.
That is why I do not believe a man should ever have a vasectomy. If a couple has decided that, for whatever reason(s) they need to be done having children, the wife should have a tubal ligation rather than the husband having a vasectomy. The wife is the one who goes through all the physical experiences of pregnancy, birth, nursing, etc. so if her body cannot do that anymore, and especially if it would literally kill her to do so (making her existing children motherless - a wicked and cruel thing for anyone to suggest is a "good" thing), then she should go through the sterilization, not the husband, IMO.

I suppose if one's priority is to create families then any sort of sterilization, if one is healthy, is avoidance.
Agreed.

It's much easier for a man to get a vasectomy than it is a woman to get her tubes tied. Its a few weeks recovery and a long weekend for him.
Oh and if he can't have more kids if I die, it's an added bonus.