Bruce Porter --BOM evidence for America

[buffalo_girl]

I tried to 'edit' my first response, but it stuck. The second comes closer to my intent.

[Alaris]

About 1/3 of the way through the video with my wife. I really like Bruce Porter, and I like how he focuses on the why rather than the where, what, etc. so far.

[larsenb]

About 1/3 of the way through the video with my wife. I really like Bruce Porter, and I like how he focuses on the why rather than the where, what, etc. so far.

There are those of us who really enjoy the challenge of the 'where' and the what. It's like being your own Heinrich Schliemann in his search for Troy.

But the real plus is: to the degree you are able to sleuth this information out and come up with the best working model, the Book of Mormon takes on an even more powerful aspect, not realized by those who focus on just the 'why'.

[buffalo_girl]

I finished the Bruce Porter video linked above.

He nailed it!

In communicating with my 'representatives' I have a difficult time keeping my temper. I know they are 'on the take'. They know they are 'on the take'.

The only hope I have is found in Doctrine & Covenants 101:75-101.

92 Pray ye, therefore, that their ears may be opened unto your cries, that I may be merciful unto them, that these things may not come upon them.
93 What I have said unto you must needs be, that all men may be left without excuse;
94 That wise men and rulers may hear and know that which they have never considered;
95 That I may proceed to bring to pass my act, my strange act, and perform my work, my strange work, that men may discern between the righteous and the wicked, saith your God.

The most difficult challenge, for me, is 'praying for them'. I am so disgusted with their willful and corrupt behaviors, I no longer have the energy to write, fax, or call them. No excuse, I know. Voting is a joke. Each candidate is selected to perform with an engineered outcome (controlled opposition) already on the agenda.

Donna, humble yourself and pray, the Spirit whispers to me.

[Benaishtart]

Would someone care to explain then why the church has composed a short essay on B of M geography and is now shifting focus away from the B of M being a work of translation to a 'revelatory work' instead?

I have personally talked with Dan Peterson about this and he’s asked actual GA’s and he says this is a pure anti-Mormon lie going around. You’d be disingenuous to keep on promoting it. I’m sick and tired of it already and so are all the other apologists.

[Benaishtart]

I’m just gonna say that Joseph Smith said that Zion was all of North and South America. You can try to twist the evidence all you want but early prophets made statements in support of BoM events taking place in South, Central, and North America. That’s why they’ve always said the ‘americas’ and that’s the official neutral position. I don’t really by the limited models since it only takes 3-4 months to walk across a continent. It took the Phoenicians only 6 weeks to get from Carthage to Michigan. There absolutely were Hebrew societies in the US of A but that doesn’t prove that King Benjamin and Alma lived in Kentucky or Illinois or whatever. Despite a good amount of evidence, I’ve always been taken aback from the heartlander model as most of its proponents have been really high and mighty and all like I’m clearly more spiritual than you because I believe in the heartland model. And it’s impossible the BoM could take place 1 mile south of the border because of ‘muh choice n’ promiz lahnd’ Argument. I don’t discriminate where the evidence is found. I believe that we have only 1/1000th of the record and that BoM and Israelite related people were from everywhere from Chile to Canada. So many of you guys somehow think Hagoth went from Lake Michigan or wherever and landed up in the Pacific or that huge disastrous volcanoe eruptions happened in Missouri or that they wore loin clothes in sub zero weather. Not buying it.

[Benaishtart]

Also I believe the heartland model was created so that LDS tour groups visiting church sights back east/Midwest would have an opportunity to visit BoM sights as well. It just as easily could’ve taken place out west. Isn’t western America also part of a blessed and promised land?

[EmmaLee]

Benaishtart has spoken. Subject is closed.

[buffalo_girl]

I'm ok with where ever those events took place or where future events will take place!

My point was that the cataclysmic events described in 3Nephi could well have changed the whole face of the land. No doubt we will experience a similar transformation as The LORD returns to reign and the continents will be reunited as one - as in the beginning.

Doctrine & Covenants 133
19 Wherefore, prepare ye for the coming of the Bridegroom; go ye, go ye out to meet him.
20 For behold, he shall stand upon the mount of Olivet, and upon the mighty ocean, even the great deep, and upon the islands of the sea, and upon the land of Zion.
21 And he shall utter his voice out of Zion, and he shall speak from Jerusalem, and his voice shall be heard among all people;
22 And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.
23 He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;
24 And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.
25 And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh.
26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.

You are right, we have so much goodness and mercy to look forward to, we really do need to stop speculating about those things we actually know nothing about.

I do agree with the scriptural premise which is described in the linked video. 'This land' is a 'land of promise' and will ONLY support Liberty based upon the Principles of Righteousness given to us by Christ. I would not argue that the United States is demonstrating or supporting those Principles to the rest of the world.

[Benaishtart]

Benaishtart has spoken. Subject is closed.

You crack me up

[EmmaLee]

Benaishtart has spoken. Subject is closed.

You crack me up

[larsenb]

I’m just gonna say that Joseph Smith said that Zion was all of North and South America. You can try to twist the evidence all you want but early prophets made statements in support of BoM events taking place in South, Central, and North America. That’s why they’ve always said the ‘americas’ and that’s the official neutral position. I don’t really by the limited models since it only takes 3-4 months to walk across a continent. It took the Phoenicians only 6 weeks to get from Carthage to Michigan. There absolutely were Hebrew societies in the US of A but that doesn’t prove that King Benjamin and Alma lived in Kentucky or Illinois or whatever. Despite a good amount of evidence, I’ve always been taken aback from the heartlander model as most of its proponents have been really high and mighty and all like I’m clearly more spiritual than you because I believe in the heartland model. And it’s impossible the BoM could take place 1 mile south of the border because of ‘muh choice n’ promiz lahnd’ Argument. I don’t discriminate where the evidence is found. I believe that we have only 1/1000th of the record and that BoM and Israelite related people were from everywhere from Chile to Canada. So many of you guys somehow think Hagoth went from Lake Michigan or wherever and landed up in the Pacific or that huge disastrous volcanoe eruptions happened in Missouri or that they wore loin clothes in sub zero weather. Not buying it.

This is essentially correct, in my view and is mirrored in my analysis of information often used by Heartlanders to support their hypothesis. Here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50941#p918504 .

This took a bit of work to develop and most of my arguments were based on information taken from the actual data and articles cited.

Heartlanders can believe what they want. For me it is an interesting and rather enjoyable intellectual game, but can have spiritual payoff. But it isn't going to help you spiritually, in the long run, to support something that isn't quite up to snuff and misuses, distorts or ignores data.

[Teancum]

I’m just gonna say that Joseph Smith said that Zion was all of North and South America. You can try to twist the evidence all you want but early prophets made statements in support of BoM events taking place in South, Central, and North America. That’s why they’ve always said the ‘americas’ and that’s the official neutral position. I don’t really by the limited models since it only takes 3-4 months to walk across a continent. It took the Phoenicians only 6 weeks to get from Carthage to Michigan. There absolutely were Hebrew societies in the US of A but that doesn’t prove that King Benjamin and Alma lived in Kentucky or Illinois or whatever. Despite a good amount of evidence, I’ve always been taken aback from the heartlander model as most of its proponents have been really high and mighty and all like I’m clearly more spiritual than you because I believe in the heartland model. And it’s impossible the BoM could take place 1 mile south of the border because of ‘muh choice n’ promiz lahnd’ Argument. I don’t discriminate where the evidence is found. I believe that we have only 1/1000th of the record and that BoM and Israelite related people were from everywhere from Chile to Canada. So many of you guys somehow think Hagoth went from Lake Michigan or wherever and landed up in the Pacific or that huge disastrous volcanoe eruptions happened in Missouri or that they wore loin clothes in sub zero weather. Not buying it.

This is essentially correct, in my view and is mirrored in my analysis of information often used by Heartlanders to support their hypothesis. Here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50941#p918504 .

This took a bit of work to develop and most of my arguments were based on information taken from the actual data and articles cited.

Heartlanders can believe what they want. For me it is an interesting and rather enjoyable intellectual game, but can have spiritual payoff. But it isn't going to help you spiritually, in the long run, to support something that isn't quite up to snuff and misuses, distorts or ignores data.

Especially if it causes contention, or fosters ill will.

[larsenb]

I’m just gonna say that Joseph Smith said that Zion was all of North and South America. You can try to twist the evidence all you want but early prophets made statements in support of BoM events taking place in South, Central, and North America. That’s why they’ve always said the ‘americas’ and that’s the official neutral position. I don’t really by the limited models since it only takes 3-4 months to walk across a continent. It took the Phoenicians only 6 weeks to get from Carthage to Michigan. There absolutely were Hebrew societies in the US of A but that doesn’t prove that King Benjamin and Alma lived in Kentucky or Illinois or whatever. Despite a good amount of evidence, I’ve always been taken aback from the heartlander model as most of its proponents have been really high and mighty and all like I’m clearly more spiritual than you because I believe in the heartland model. And it’s impossible the BoM could take place 1 mile south of the border because of ‘muh choice n’ promiz lahnd’ Argument. I don’t discriminate where the evidence is found. I believe that we have only 1/1000th of the record and that BoM and Israelite related people were from everywhere from Chile to Canada. So many of you guys somehow think Hagoth went from Lake Michigan or wherever and landed up in the Pacific or that huge disastrous volcanoe eruptions happened in Missouri or that they wore loin clothes in sub zero weather. Not buying it.

This is essentially correct, in my view and is mirrored in my analysis of information often used by Heartlanders to support their hypothesis. Here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50941#p918504 .

This took a bit of work to develop and most of my arguments were based on information taken from the actual data and articles cited.

Heartlanders can believe what they want. For me it is an interesting and rather enjoyable intellectual game, but can have spiritual payoff. But it isn't going to help you spiritually, in the long run, to support something that isn't quite up to snuff and misuses, distorts or ignores data.

Especially if it causes contention, or fosters ill will.

But presenting good evidence and arguments against a particular Book of Mormon model isn't causing 'contention' or fostering 'ill will' . . . . . only if the person on the receiving end feels threatened because he/she has no logical and/or evidentiary come-back and has put too much, and perhaps unwarranted, weight to a particular model they are wedded to.

If they are that sensitive, however, they may want to consider whether it is worth coming out in a public forum with a particular view that might invite counter arguments, evidence, logic.

This is a discussion board. Mostly, it's fun batting things around, imho.

[Teancum]

I’m just gonna say that Joseph Smith said that Zion was all of North and South America. You can try to twist the evidence all you want but early prophets made statements in support of BoM events taking place in South, Central, and North America. That’s why they’ve always said the ‘americas’ and that’s the official neutral position. I don’t really by the limited models since it only takes 3-4 months to walk across a continent. It took the Phoenicians only 6 weeks to get from Carthage to Michigan. There absolutely were Hebrew societies in the US of A but that doesn’t prove that King Benjamin and Alma lived in Kentucky or Illinois or whatever. Despite a good amount of evidence, I’ve always been taken aback from the heartlander model as most of its proponents have been really high and mighty and all like I’m clearly more spiritual than you because I believe in the heartland model. And it’s impossible the BoM could take place 1 mile south of the border because of ‘muh choice n’ promiz lahnd’ Argument. I don’t discriminate where the evidence is found. I believe that we have only 1/1000th of the record and that BoM and Israelite related people were from everywhere from Chile to Canada. So many of you guys somehow think Hagoth went from Lake Michigan or wherever and landed up in the Pacific or that huge disastrous volcanoe eruptions happened in Missouri or that they wore loin clothes in sub zero weather. Not buying it.

This is essentially correct, in my view and is mirrored in my analysis of information often used by Heartlanders to support their hypothesis. Here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50941#p918504 .

This took a bit of work to develop and most of my arguments were based on information taken from the actual data and articles cited.

Heartlanders can believe what they want. For me it is an interesting and rather enjoyable intellectual game, but can have spiritual payoff. But it isn't going to help you spiritually, in the long run, to support something that isn't quite up to snuff and misuses, distorts or ignores data.

Especially if it causes contention, or fosters ill will.

But presenting good evidence and arguments against a particular Book of Mormon model isn't causing 'contention' or fostering 'ill will' . . . . . only if the person on the receiving end feels threatened because he/she has no logical and/or evidentiary come-back and has put too much, and perhaps unwarranted, weight to a particular model they are wedded to.

If they are that sensitive, however, they may want to consider whether it is worth coming out in a public forum with a particular view that might invite counter arguments, evidence, logic.

This is a discussion board. Mostly, it's fun batting things around, imho.

I am not sure what causes it but I have observed that contention gets generated with the geography topic. Whether it is a dim view of the "other side" as being deceived, or at least uninformed, or whether there is a perceived threat to one's testimony or world-view if anything not fitting the paradigm should be presented, I do see people getting somewhat worked up over it.

I too enjoy learning and finding more, studying things out and asking, seeking, knocking.. But I am getting weary of the "baggage" such efforts inevitable bring with it.

[JohnnyL]

If it mattered that we know exactly where events Book of Mormon occurred, it would have been revealed and taught, but this isn't the case. Belief of the Book of Mormon is to be based on faith.

Without question, the point of the Book of Mormon is the intent of its content. Any other usage is secondary, including, as interesting as it may be, speculating on its geographical context.

What seems to be divisive are interpretations of the term "this land." Perhaps it has multiple meanings, referring alternatively to a general or a specific area, whether limited or expansive. As to the land of liberty, the US seems an obvious referent. But as to covenants, it could refer to any part or the whole of North, Central, and/or South America inclusively.

Disparate geographic models, as in Heartland and Mesoamerica models, have their pros and cons. But Porter's claim that one must know the exact land on which its events occurred, otherwise the covenants are null and void, is belabored and baseless. The prophecies and promises are in effect whether or not we know about them or any more specific geographical context.

It's sufficient to know that the Book of Mormon occurred, generally, in "the Americas."

Excellent commentary.

But for my personal interest in this subject, I'm still waiting to see a heartlander attempt to do the exacting analysis of Book of Mormon passages having to do w/geography, travel times and directions,
etc., that is required, and that has been done by a few people, and preeminently by Ric Hauck and Joe Anderson. I'm also waiting to see a good rebutal of John Lund's analysis of Joseph Smith's Times and Seasons editorials of 1842.

So far, pretty much nada.

I’ll save you the trouble.


Heartland Model Distances:

Knoxsville (Clinch River) to Nauvoo = 613 miles
Knoxsville to Nashville = 185 miles.
Nashville to Nauvoo = 460 miles.
Nashville to Cairo, Il (Little Egypt) = 168 miles

Mosiah’s 16 explorers travel from the city of Zarahemla to Lehi-Nephi in 40 days = 15 miles/day = 600 miles. (perfect mileage and pace)

Alma fled 8 days from the Waters of Mormon to the “Land of Helam” and 12 days from Helam to the “Land of Zarahemla”. Traveling from the city of Nephi to the city of Zarahemla could represent over 600 miles / 20 days = 30 miles/day. That would be an unrealistic pace on foot with their flocks and grain.

Average Daily Mileage:
LDS handcart pioneer = 15.7 miles/day.
Appalachian Trail Thru-hiker = 2200 miles/5 months = 15 miles/day, (20-25 max daily miles)
Horse-Mounted Company = 30 miles/day

Alma traveling with flocks and grain suggests the refugees were utilized domesticated beasts of burden, carts and wagons. Therefore, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that Alma’s likely energetic group could have pushed near 2.5 mph for 12 hr/day for 8 days = 240 miles max range. Knoxville to Nashville is a very doable 185 miles (23 mil/day, 2.3 mph for 10 hours/day)

Also, the Book of Mormon may be counting the distance from the Waters of Mormon only to the borders of the “land of Helam” (Mos 23:3), and not the city of Nephi itself to the city of Helam. (ie adjacent river valley). Also, Mormon reports that it was only 12 days from the city of Helam to the “Land of Zarahemla” and does not specify the city of Zarahemla itself (Mos 24:25). Nashville to the border of the Land of Zarahemla (Cairo, Il) would only be a leisurely 168 miles. (1.5 mph x 10 hours/day = 10.5 mil/day x 12 days).

So, considering the text, we may save on total distance needed to traveled. And, while Alma’s numbers are tight, they are not an order of magnitude off reality. Also, the Limhi detachment running into the Ohio River instead of the Mississippi and mistakenly following the Ohio River up to Upstate New York (Land of Desolation) is a good fit.

A couple of serious problems w/what you’ve provided . . . in terms of following a systematic methodology based on Book of Mormon criteria.

First, you have to analyze all the BofM passages on travel times, distances, descriptions, directions to and from, and relative locations of cities, towns, rivers and any other pertinent geographical features.

THEN, after doing this you look around to see what is the best fit in terms of present-day geography . . . . if you can find such a locale. Doing anything else is putting the cart before the horse.

Second, your use of 40 days travel time of the 16 travelers from Zarahemla to Lehi-Nephi resulting in 600 miles of travel ignores the fact that this group didn’t know the way to the land of Lehi-Nephi, thus they wandered around a lot (Alma 7:4). This could have entailed sending out various exploration expeditions, backtracking, camping for days-at-time while they tried to figure things out, etc. Assuming a straight line of travel and non-stop travel is an unwarranted assumption.

Now you kind of corrected this in analyzing other travel times between the general Land of Nephi and Zarahemla, but there is so, so much more from the BofM regarding the relative positioning of Book of Mormon geographical descriptors.

Mosiah 7:2 And it came to pass that king Mosiah granted that sixteen of their strong men might go up to the land of Lehi-Nephi, to inquire concerning their brethren.
3 And it came to pass that on the morrow they started to go up, having with them one Ammon, he being a strong and mighty man, and a descendant of Zarahemla; and he was also their leader.
4 And now, they knew not the course they should travel in the wilderness to go up to the land of Lehi-Nephi; therefore they wandered many days in the wilderness, even forty days did they wander.
On the other hand, these are "strong men" (like special forces, I'd guess), used to this kind of thing, and in very, very good shape. They might have wandered, but they might have been doing it all at a jog. 15 miles a day? In the ballpark. That's assuming the 40 days is not figurative...

[larsenb]

Excellent commentary.

But for my personal interest in this subject, I'm still waiting to see a heartlander attempt to do the exacting analysis of Book of Mormon passages having to do w/geography, travel times and directions,
etc., that is required, and that has been done by a few people, and preeminently by Ric Hauck and Joe Anderson. I'm also waiting to see a good rebutal of John Lund's analysis of Joseph Smith's Times and Seasons editorials of 1842.

So far, pretty much nada.

I’ll save you the trouble.


Heartland Model Distances:

Knoxsville (Clinch River) to Nauvoo = 613 miles
Knoxsville to Nashville = 185 miles.
Nashville to Nauvoo = 460 miles.
Nashville to Cairo, Il (Little Egypt) = 168 miles

Mosiah’s 16 explorers travel from the city of Zarahemla to Lehi-Nephi in 40 days = 15 miles/day = 600 miles. (perfect mileage and pace)

Alma fled 8 days from the Waters of Mormon to the “Land of Helam” and 12 days from Helam to the “Land of Zarahemla”. Traveling from the city of Nephi to the city of Zarahemla could represent over 600 miles / 20 days = 30 miles/day. That would be an unrealistic pace on foot with their flocks and grain.

Average Daily Mileage:
LDS handcart pioneer = 15.7 miles/day.
Appalachian Trail Thru-hiker = 2200 miles/5 months = 15 miles/day, (20-25 max daily miles)
Horse-Mounted Company = 30 miles/day

Alma traveling with flocks and grain suggests the refugees were utilized domesticated beasts of burden, carts and wagons. Therefore, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that Alma’s likely energetic group could have pushed near 2.5 mph for 12 hr/day for 8 days = 240 miles max range. Knoxville to Nashville is a very doable 185 miles (23 mil/day, 2.3 mph for 10 hours/day)

Also, the Book of Mormon may be counting the distance from the Waters of Mormon only to the borders of the “land of Helam” (Mos 23:3), and not the city of Nephi itself to the city of Helam. (ie adjacent river valley). Also, Mormon reports that it was only 12 days from the city of Helam to the “Land of Zarahemla” and does not specify the city of Zarahemla itself (Mos 24:25). Nashville to the border of the Land of Zarahemla (Cairo, Il) would only be a leisurely 168 miles. (1.5 mph x 10 hours/day = 10.5 mil/day x 12 days).

So, considering the text, we may save on total distance needed to traveled. And, while Alma’s numbers are tight, they are not an order of magnitude off reality. Also, the Limhi detachment running into the Ohio River instead of the Mississippi and mistakenly following the Ohio River up to Upstate New York (Land of Desolation) is a good fit.

A couple of serious problems w/what you’ve provided . . . in terms of following a systematic methodology based on Book of Mormon criteria.

First, you have to analyze all the BofM passages on travel times, distances, descriptions, directions to and from, and relative locations of cities, towns, rivers and any other pertinent geographical features.

THEN, after doing this you look around to see what is the best fit in terms of present-day geography . . . . if you can find such a locale. Doing anything else is putting the cart before the horse.

Second, your use of 40 days travel time of the 16 travelers from Zarahemla to Lehi-Nephi resulting in 600 miles of travel ignores the fact that this group didn’t know the way to the land of Lehi-Nephi, thus they wandered around a lot (Alma 7:4). This could have entailed sending out various exploration expeditions, backtracking, camping for days-at-time while they tried to figure things out, etc. Assuming a straight line of travel and non-stop travel is an unwarranted assumption.

Now you kind of corrected this in analyzing other travel times between the general Land of Nephi and Zarahemla, but there is so, so much more from the BofM regarding the relative positioning of Book of Mormon geographical descriptors.

Mosiah 7:2 And it came to pass that king Mosiah granted that sixteen of their strong men might go up to the land of Lehi-Nephi, to inquire concerning their brethren.
3 And it came to pass that on the morrow they started to go up, having with them one Ammon, he being a strong and mighty man, and a descendant of Zarahemla; and he was also their leader.
4 And now, they knew not the course they should travel in the wilderness to go up to the land of Lehi-Nephi; therefore they wandered many days in the wilderness, even forty days did they wander.
On the other hand, these are "strong men" (like special forces, I'd guess), used to this kind of thing, and in very, very good shape. They might have wandered, but they might have been doing it all at a jog. 15 miles a day? In the ballpark. That's assuming the 40 days is not figurative...

Even if they were jogging the whole time, the point remains that:

"this group didn’t know the way to the land of Lehi-Nephi, thus they wandered around a lot (Alma 7:4). This could have entailed sending out various exploration expeditions, backtracking, camping for days-at-time while they tried to figure things out, etc. Assuming a straight line of travel and non-stop travel is an unwarranted assumption."

I actually looked to see if this passage about the 16 explorers was used by those who have closely analyzed Book of Mormon geographical information. Couldn't find it. And the highly probable reason was because the passage doesn''t provide concrete information about travel times between known locations (i.e., they wandered). . . in fact, the 16 didn't even know the way to Lehi-Nephi.