Bruce Porter --BOM evidence for America

[Davka]

Apologies if someone has posted this talk before. If you haven't listened to it yet and have any interest whatsoever in WHERE the Book of Mormon took place and WHY it matters, I highly recommend listening to this two hour presentation in which Bro. Porter proves from the text of the pages of the BOM that the land of the United States is the same land Lehi's family and the Jaredites were led to, lived on, prospered in, and were swept off from. He uses only the words of the Book of Mormon prophets to makes his case and it is powerful.

[kittycat51]

Awesome presentation! I totally agree with him.

Cue dissent...wait for it....

[Davka]

Awesome presentation! I totally agree with him.

Cue dissent...wait for it....

Opposition in all things, right?

If I were Satan, I would whisper to those who have received a witness of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness that it doesn't matter where it took place. Because in believing that lie, that individual has lost a large part of Mormon and Moroni's message to us.

I am wishy washy on a lot of things, but that the BOM took place in America is not one of them.

[Robin Hood]

I believe the Book of Mormon took place in North America.
I watched a presentation by Wayne May a few days ago where he investigated the ethnic origin of the Jaredites. Fascinating stuff.
Basically he presented evidence that the Jaredites were Black and migrated to North America from.... believe it or not..... England!

[Davka]

I believe the Book of Mormon took place in North America.
I watched a presentation by Wayne May a few days ago where he investigated the ethnic origin of the Jaredites. Fascinating stuff.
Basically he presented evidence that the Jaredites were Black and migrated to North America from.... believe it or not..... England!

I've seen that presentation and also found it super interesting!

[lundbaek]

I have heard and read many claims that "this land" is comprised of North, Central, and South America. At this point it is the statement that "this land" will be "a land of liberty" that convinces me that "this land" is the United States. I know of no country on the American continent other than the United States that has ever been a "land of liberty", at least as I understand liberty. Canada, IMO, has come closer than any other that I know of.

The people of the United States are losing much of the liberty they were intended to have, but that's another issue.

[Robin Hood]

I have heard and read many claims that "this land" is comprised of North, Central, and South America. At this point it is the statement that "this land" will be "a land of liberty" that convinces me that "this land" is the United States. I know of no country on the American continent other than the United States that has ever been a "land of liberty", at least as I understand liberty. Canada, IMO, has come closer than any other that I know of.

The people of the United States are losing much of the liberty they were intended to have, but that's another issue.

It seems logical that some of the Book of Mormon events would have spilled into what we now call Canada.

[markharr]

I have watched presentations by Wayne May, and I saw the book of Mormon spiritual and temporal witness presentation at the SLCC Larry H. Miller campus about a year and a half ago. The latter providing evidence for the mesoamerican model.

In my opinion, the heartland model evidence is far more compelling.

[ParticleMan]

If it mattered that we know exactly where events Book of Mormon occurred, it would have been revealed and taught, but this isn't the case. Belief of the Book of Mormon is to be based on faith.

Without question, the point of the Book of Mormon is the intent of its content. Any other usage is secondary, including, as interesting as it may be, speculating on its geographical context.

What seems to be divisive are interpretations of the term "this land." Perhaps it has multiple meanings, referring alternatively to a general or a specific area, whether limited or expansive. As to the land of liberty, the US seems an obvious referent. But as to covenants, it could refer to any part or the whole of North, Central, and/or South America inclusively.

Disparate geographic models, as in Heartland and Mesoamerica models, have their pros and cons. But Porter's claim that one must know the exact land on which its events occurred, otherwise the covenants are null and void, is belabored and baseless. The prophecies and promises are in effect whether or not we know about them or any more specific geographical context.

It's sufficient to know that the Book of Mormon occurred, generally, in "the Americas."

[larsenb]

If it mattered that we know exactly where events Book of Mormon occurred, it would have been revealed and taught, but this isn't the case. Belief of the Book of Mormon is to be based on faith.

Without question, the point of the Book of Mormon is the intent of its content. Any other usage is secondary, including, as interesting as it may be, speculating on its geographical context.

What seems to be divisive are interpretations of the term "this land." Perhaps it has multiple meanings, referring alternatively to a general or a specific area, whether limited or expansive. As to the land of liberty, the US seems an obvious referent. But as to covenants, it could refer to any part or the whole of North, Central, and/or South America inclusively.

Disparate geographic models, as in Heartland and Mesoamerica models, have their pros and cons. But Porter's claim that one must know the exact land on which its events occurred, otherwise the covenants are null and void, is belabored and baseless. The prophecies and promises are in effect whether or not we know about them or any more specific geographical context.

It's sufficient to know that the Book of Mormon occurred, generally, in "the Americas."

Excellent commentary.

But for my personal interest in this subject, I'm still waiting to see a heartlander attempt to do the exacting analysis of Book of Mormon passages having to do w/geography, travel times and directions,
etc., that is required, and that has been done by a few people, and preeminently by Ric Hauck and Joe Anderson. I'm also waiting to see a good rebutal of John Lund's analysis of Joseph Smith's Times and Seasons editorials of 1842.

So far, pretty much nada.

[Col. Flagg]

Would someone care to explain then why the church has composed a short essay on B of M geography and is now shifting focus away from the B of M being a work of translation to a 'revelatory work' instead?

[Robin Hood]

Would someone care to explain then why the church has composed a short essay on B of M geography and is now shifting focus away from the B of M being a work of translation to a 'revelatory work' instead?

Nope.

[davedan]

If it mattered that we know exactly where events Book of Mormon occurred, it would have been revealed and taught, but this isn't the case. Belief of the Book of Mormon is to be based on faith.

Without question, the point of the Book of Mormon is the intent of its content. Any other usage is secondary, including, as interesting as it may be, speculating on its geographical context.

What seems to be divisive are interpretations of the term "this land." Perhaps it has multiple meanings, referring alternatively to a general or a specific area, whether limited or expansive. As to the land of liberty, the US seems an obvious referent. But as to covenants, it could refer to any part or the whole of North, Central, and/or South America inclusively.

Disparate geographic models, as in Heartland and Mesoamerica models, have their pros and cons. But Porter's claim that one must know the exact land on which its events occurred, otherwise the covenants are null and void, is belabored and baseless. The prophecies and promises are in effect whether or not we know about them or any more specific geographical context.

It's sufficient to know that the Book of Mormon occurred, generally, in "the Americas."

Excellent commentary.

But for my personal interest in this subject, I'm still waiting to see a heartlander attempt to do the exacting analysis of Book of Mormon passages having to do w/geography, travel times and directions,
etc., that is required, and that has been done by a few people, and preeminently by Ric Hauck and Joe Anderson. I'm also waiting to see a good rebutal of John Lund's analysis of Joseph Smith's Times and Seasons editorials of 1842.

So far, pretty much nada.

I’ll save you the trouble.


Heartland Model Distances:

Knoxsville (Clinch River) to Nauvoo = 613 miles
Knoxsville to Nashville = 185 miles.
Nashville to Nauvoo = 460 miles.
Nashville to Cairo, Il (Little Egypt) = 168 miles

Mosiah’s 16 explorers travel from the city of Zarahemla to Lehi-Nephi in 40 days = 15 miles/day = 600 miles. (perfect mileage and pace)

Alma fled 8 days from the Waters of Mormon to the “Land of Helam” and 12 days from Helam to the “Land of Zarahemla”. Traveling from the city of Nephi to the city of Zarahemla could represent over 600 miles / 20 days = 30 miles/day. That would be an unrealistic pace on foot with their flocks and grain.

Average Daily Mileage:
LDS handcart pioneer = 15.7 miles/day.
Appalachian Trail Thru-hiker = 2200 miles/5 months = 15 miles/day, (20-25 max daily miles)
Horse-Mounted Company = 30 miles/day

Alma traveling with flocks and grain suggests the refugees were utilized domesticated beasts of burden, carts and wagons. Therefore, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that Alma’s likely energetic group could have pushed near 2.5 mph for 12 hr/day for 8 days = 240 miles max range. Knoxville to Nashville is a very doable 185 miles (23 mil/day, 2.3 mph for 10 hours/day)

Also, the Book of Mormon may be counting the distance from the Waters of Mormon only to the borders of the “land of Helam” (Mos 23:3), and not the city of Nephi itself to the city of Helam. (ie adjacent river valley). Also, Mormon reports that it was only 12 days from the city of Helam to the “Land of Zarahemla” and does not specify the city of Zarahemla itself (Mos 24:25). Nashville to the border of the Land of Zarahemla (Cairo, Il) would only be a leisurely 168 miles. (1.5 mph x 10 hours/day = 10.5 mil/day x 12 days).

So, considering the text, we may save on total distance needed to traveled. And, while Alma’s numbers are tight, they are not an order of magnitude off reality. Also, the Limhi detachment running into the Ohio River instead of the Mississippi and mistakenly following the Ohio River up to Upstate New York (Land of Desolation) is a good fit.

[larsenb]

If it mattered that we know exactly where events Book of Mormon occurred, it would have been revealed and taught, but this isn't the case. Belief of the Book of Mormon is to be based on faith.

Without question, the point of the Book of Mormon is the intent of its content. Any other usage is secondary, including, as interesting as it may be, speculating on its geographical context.

What seems to be divisive are interpretations of the term "this land." Perhaps it has multiple meanings, referring alternatively to a general or a specific area, whether limited or expansive. As to the land of liberty, the US seems an obvious referent. But as to covenants, it could refer to any part or the whole of North, Central, and/or South America inclusively.

Disparate geographic models, as in Heartland and Mesoamerica models, have their pros and cons. But Porter's claim that one must know the exact land on which its events occurred, otherwise the covenants are null and void, is belabored and baseless. The prophecies and promises are in effect whether or not we know about them or any more specific geographical context.

It's sufficient to know that the Book of Mormon occurred, generally, in "the Americas."

Excellent commentary.

But for my personal interest in this subject, I'm still waiting to see a heartlander attempt to do the exacting analysis of Book of Mormon passages having to do w/geography, travel times and directions,
etc., that is required, and that has been done by a few people, and preeminently by Ric Hauck and Joe Anderson. I'm also waiting to see a good rebutal of John Lund's analysis of Joseph Smith's Times and Seasons editorials of 1842.

So far, pretty much nada.

I’ll save you the trouble.


Heartland Model Distances:

Knoxsville (Clinch River) to Nauvoo = 613 miles
Knoxsville to Nashville = 185 miles.
Nashville to Nauvoo = 460 miles.
Nashville to Cairo, Il (Little Egypt) = 168 miles

Mosiah’s 16 explorers travel from the city of Zarahemla to Lehi-Nephi in 40 days = 15 miles/day = 600 miles. (perfect mileage and pace)

Alma fled 8 days from the Waters of Mormon to the “Land of Helam” and 12 days from Helam to the “Land of Zarahemla”. Traveling from the city of Nephi to the city of Zarahemla could represent over 600 miles / 20 days = 30 miles/day. That would be an unrealistic pace on foot with their flocks and grain.

Average Daily Mileage:
LDS handcart pioneer = 15.7 miles/day.
Appalachian Trail Thru-hiker = 2200 miles/5 months = 15 miles/day, (20-25 max daily miles)
Horse-Mounted Company = 30 miles/day

Alma traveling with flocks and grain suggests the refugees were utilized domesticated beasts of burden, carts and wagons. Therefore, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that Alma’s likely energetic group could have pushed near 2.5 mph for 12 hr/day for 8 days = 240 miles max range. Knoxville to Nashville is a very doable 185 miles (23 mil/day, 2.3 mph for 10 hours/day)

Also, the Book of Mormon may be counting the distance from the Waters of Mormon only to the borders of the “land of Helam” (Mos 23:3), and not the city of Nephi itself to the city of Helam. (ie adjacent river valley). Also, Mormon reports that it was only 12 days from the city of Helam to the “Land of Zarahemla” and does not specify the city of Zarahemla itself (Mos 24:25). Nashville to the border of the Land of Zarahemla (Cairo, Il) would only be a leisurely 168 miles. (1.5 mph x 10 hours/day = 10.5 mil/day x 12 days).

So, considering the text, we may save on total distance needed to traveled. And, while Alma’s numbers are tight, they are not an order of magnitude off reality. Also, the Limhi detachment running into the Ohio River instead of the Mississippi and mistakenly following the Ohio River up to Upstate New York (Land of Desolation) is a good fit.

A couple of serious problems w/what you’ve provided . . . in terms of following a systematic methodology based on Book of Mormon criteria.

First, you have to analyze all the BofM passages on travel times, distances, descriptions, directions to and from, and relative locations of cities, towns, rivers and any other pertinent geographical features.

THEN, after doing this you look around to see what is the best fit in terms of present-day geography . . . . if you can find such a locale. Doing anything else is putting the cart before the horse.

Second, your use of 40 days travel time of the 16 travelers from Zarahemla to Lehi-Nephi resulting in 600 miles of travel ignores the fact that this group didn’t know the way to the land of Lehi-Nephi, thus they wandered around a lot (Alma 7:4). This could have entailed sending out various exploration expeditions, backtracking, camping for days-at-time while they tried to figure things out, etc. Assuming a straight line of travel and non-stop travel is an unwarranted assumption.

Now you kind of corrected this in analyzing other travel times between the general Land of Nephi and Zarahemla, but there is so, so much more from the BofM regarding the relative positioning of Book of Mormon geographical descriptors.

[buffalo_girl]

Has anyone factored in land formation changes caused by the cataclysm occurring at Christ's death? I haven't yet watched the video.

http://www.new-madrid.mo.us/index.aspx?nid=132

[larsenb]

Has anyone factored in land formation changes caused by the cataclysm occurring at Christ's death? I haven't yet watched the video.

http://www.new-madrid.mo.us/index.aspx?nid=132

Yes. This has been kicked around in earlier threads on the same subject. My personal feeling, based on the passages in 3 Nephi 8 and 9, etc., is that the New Madrid earthquake zone won't quite produce many of the effects described.

For instance, the City of Moroni being sunk in the depths of the sea (3 Nephi 8:9; 9:4. The City of Moroni was close to the Sea East. But the New Madrid is a State and a half from the Gulf of Mexico and much further from the Atlantic Ocean. But I think the Heartland Model would place the Sea East as one of the Great Lakes, which is also very far from the active New Madrid fault zone.

Then you have 3 Nephi 8:10, which describes earth being carried up on the city of Moronihah, which became buried by a great mountain. I think it is safe to say that earthquakes don't do this type of thing, though, the effects of thrusting could possibly approach it. Volcanos certainly do.

Also, water is described as coming up to bury 3 cities in 3 Nephi 9:7. Not many large lakes in the area of the New Madrid.

In 3 Nephi 9:11, the Lord describes how He "did send down fire" to destroy at least some of the cities that were burned. Earthquakes don't do this. Volcanos do. But earthquakes can certainly cause fires to start in a city, for various reasons. Now, maybe the Lord meant the fire was sent down via the great lightnings that were occuring during the 3 hours of destruction; I don't know. But normally, lightning does not accompany even large earthquakes. But it is almost required during certain phases of a volcanic eruption.

My own view is that the destruction described in these two chapters was caused by a combination of volcanic and earthquake activity, and the two could have each exacerbated by the other. The New Madrid is not in a region of volcanic activity, either recently or in the past, to the best of my knowledge.

[buffalo_girl]

I really have no grasp on Book of Mormon geography one place or another. I guess it doesn't impact my testimony of its truth.

I do know that the Great Lakes region and the Mississippi River Basin are much less seismically stable than commonly thought. A neighbor here in North Dakota worked in Chicago prior to her marriage some decades ago. A New Madrid quake in Tennessee shook the Chicago hospital where she was a radiologist enough to throw her equipment out of alignment.

As I understand it, Lake Michigan is approx. 600 feet above sea level. Michigan Upper Peninsula is a 'narrow neck of land' between two 'oceans'.



"The New Madrid earthquakes were the biggest earthquakes in American history. They occurred in the central Mississippi Valley, but were felt as far away as New York City, Boston, Montreal, and Washington D.C. President James Madison and his wife Dolly felt them in the White House. Church bells rang in Boston. From December 16, 1811 through March of 1812 there were over 2,000 earthquakes in the central Midwest, and between 6,000-10,000 earthquakes in the Bootheel of Missouri where New Madrid is located near the junction of the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers.

The Mississippi Ran Backwards
After the February 7 earthquake, boatmen reported that the Mississippi actually ran backwards for several hours. The force of the land upheaval 15 miles south of New Madrid created Reelfoot Lake, drowned the inhabitants of an Indian village; turned the river against itself to flow backwards; devastated thousands of acres of virgin forest; and created two temporary waterfalls in the Mississippi. Boatmen on flatboats actually survived this experience and lived to tell the tale.

Getting Over Cracks
As the general area experienced more than 2,000 earthquakes in five months, people discovered that most of crevices opening up during an earthquake ran from north to south, and when the earth began moving, they would chop down trees in an east- west direction and hold on using the tree as a bridge. There were “missing people” who were most likely swallowed up by the earth. Some earthquake fissures were as long as five miles.

Earthquake Lights
Lights flashed from the ground, caused by quartz crystals being squeezed. The phenomena is called “seismoluminescence.”

Warm Water
Water thrown up by an earthquake was lukewarm. It is speculated that the shaking caused the water to heat up and/or quartz light heated the water.

Earthquake Smog
The skies turned dark during the earthquakes, so dark that lighted lamps didn’t help. The air smelled bad, and it was hard to breathe. It is speculated that it was smog containing dust particles caused by the eruption of warm water into cold air.

Loud Thunder
Sounds of distant thunder and loud explosions accompanied the earthquakes."

Other descriptions and Indian lore are also found at that link: http://www.new-madrid.mo.us/index.aspx?nid=132

"The earthquakes were preceded by the appearance of a great comet, which was visible around the globe for seventeen months, and was at its brightest during the earthquakes. The comet, with an orbit of 3,065 years, was last seen during the time of Ramses II in Egypt. In 1811-1812, it was called “Tecumseh’s Comet” (or “Napoleon’s Comet” in Europe). Tecumseh was a Shawnee Indian leader whose name meant “Shooting Star” or “He who walks across the sky.” "

[larsenb]

I really have no grasp on Book of Mormon geography one place or another. I guess it doesn't impact my testimony of its truth.

I do know that the Great Lakes region and the Mississippi River Basin are much less seismically stable than commonly thought. A neighbor here in North Dakota worked in Chicago prior to her marriage some decades ago. A New Madrid quake in Tennessee shook the Chicago hospital where she was a radiologist enough to throw her equipment out of alignment.

As I understand it, Lake Michigan is approx. 600 feet above sea level. Michigan Upper Peninsula is a 'narrow neck of land' between two 'oceans'.



"The New Madrid earthquakes were the biggest earthquakes in American history. They occurred in the central Mississippi Valley, but were felt as far away as New York City, Boston, Montreal, and Washington D.C. President James Madison and his wife Dolly felt them in the White House. Church bells rang in Boston. From December 16, 1811 through March of 1812 there were over 2,000 earthquakes in the central Midwest, and between 6,000-10,000 earthquakes in the Bootheel of Missouri where New Madrid is located near the junction of the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers.

The Mississippi Ran Backwards
After the February 7 earthquake, boatmen reported that the Mississippi actually ran backwards for several hours. The force of the land upheaval 15 miles south of New Madrid created Reelfoot Lake, drowned the inhabitants of an Indian village; turned the river against itself to flow backwards; devastated thousands of acres of virgin forest; and created two temporary waterfalls in the Mississippi. Boatmen on flatboats actually survived this experience and lived to tell the tale.

Getting Over Cracks
As the general area experienced more than 2,000 earthquakes in five months, people discovered that most of crevices opening up during an earthquake ran from north to south, and when the earth began moving, they would chop down trees in an east- west direction and hold on using the tree as a bridge. There were “missing people” who were most likely swallowed up by the earth. Some earthquake fissures were as long as five miles.

Earthquake Lights
Lights flashed from the ground, caused by quartz crystals being squeezed. The phenomena is called “seismoluminescence.”

Warm Water
Water thrown up by an earthquake was lukewarm. It is speculated that the shaking caused the water to heat up and/or quartz light heated the water.

Earthquake Smog
The skies turned dark during the earthquakes, so dark that lighted lamps didn’t help. The air smelled bad, and it was hard to breathe. It is speculated that it was smog containing dust particles caused by the eruption of warm water into cold air.

Loud Thunder
Sounds of distant thunder and loud explosions accompanied the earthquakes."

Other descriptions and Indian lore are also found at that link: http://www.new-madrid.mo.us/index.aspx?nid=132

"The earthquakes were preceded by the appearance of a great comet, which was visible around the globe for seventeen months, and was at its brightest during the earthquakes. The comet, with an orbit of 3,065 years, was last seen during the time of Ramses II in Egypt. In 1811-1812, it was called “Tecumseh’s Comet” (or “Napoleon’s Comet” in Europe). Tecumseh was a Shawnee Indian leader whose name meant “Shooting Star” or “He who walks across the sky.” "

As usual, the points I try to make that don't square w/the Heartland Model are virtually ignored .

Yes, powerful earthquakes can be felt hundreds of miles distant from the epicenters. But no, the Great Lakes region is quite stable (relatively speaking). It is largely in the area called the craton consisting of very old, largely stable igneous rock substrate.

The New Madrid is what is called a 'weak zone' first created in the pre-Cambrian. It is susceptible to stress build-up from distant tectonic plate boundaries, which apparently are compressional.

Earthquakes from the New Madrid aren't going to make a great mountain to cover a city. They aren't going to emulate God sending fire from the sky to burn up various cities. Seismoluminescence just doesn't cut it.

And there is no example of the writers of the Book of Mormon calling lakes, seas or oceans. Quite the contrary. And I know this may sound belittling, but if you think UP is the 'narrow neck of land' describe in the BofM, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

[buffalo_girl]

As I understand it, Lake Michigan is approx. 600 feet above sea level. Michigan Upper Peninsula is a 'narrow neck of land' between two 'oceans'. I really have no grasp on Book of Mormon geography one place or another.

Gosh, Larsenb, I really wasn't trying to convince you of anything!

I don't know where events described in the Book of Mormon took place other than the great battles of the Jaredites, and the Lamanite/Nephite battles culminating around Cumora. I suspect we will have to 'wait and see' where these events took place. I'm ok with that.

We are told that the New Jerusalem will be built in Missouri near our modern St. Louis. Will the New Jerusalem Temple be built in the same area as Zarahemla in The Book of Mormon?

Growing up in Oregon and having access to the Pacific Ocean on a regular basis, I'm afraid I became 'an ocean snob' until I witnessed the immensity of the Great Lakes. In any case, I'm not in the market for bridges nor for insults.

[larsenb]

As I understand it, Lake Michigan is approx. 600 feet above sea level. Michigan Upper Peninsula is a 'narrow neck of land' between two 'oceans'. I really have no grasp on Book of Mormon geography one place or another.

Gosh, Larsenb, I really wasn't trying to convince you of anything!

I don't know where events described in the Book of Mormon took place other than the great battles of the Jaredites, and the Lamanite/Nephite battles culminating around Cumora. I suspect we will have to 'wait and see' where these events took place. I'm ok with that.

We are told that the New Jerusalem will be built in Missouri near our modern St. Louis. Will the New Jerusalem Temple be built in the same area as Zarahemla in The Book of Mormon?

Growing up in Oregon and having access to the Pacific Ocean on a regular basis, I'm afraid I became 'an ocean snob' until I witnessed the immensity of the Great Lakes. In any case, I'm not in the market for bridges nor for insults.

How about nearer to Kansas City? But we simply don't know how the writer who conjoined 'this land' with the term 'the New Jerusalem', was using the term, 'this land'. Was it a small area surrounding Zarahemla, or what?

The Great Lakes are big, but they are individual lakes, the entire surface area of which appears to be about half the area of seas such as either the Caspian or Black Seas alone.

And there is a genuine controversy about the 'two Cumorahs', despite what some people think.

I've personally walked the length of the NY Cumorah, maybe a 15 minute walk or so. Very small. It is also in the midst of a 'swarm' of similar hills. They are called drumlins and all have the same orientation, having been created by a major glaciation, the ice of which was moving in a direction lining up w/the Cumorah lineament.

Nothing very distinct at all about the NY Cumorah that I can see to make it the location of choice for the last battles widely separated in time of two large civilizations.

Also, the hill, being a drumlim, consists of basically unconsolidated gravels and other sediments . . . a palimpsest, as it were. Not a place at all where you would expect to find a large cavern containing a multiplicity of records. In fact, very early accounts of this 'Cumorah' episode aver that it was a vision.

[buffalo_girl]

Independence, of course! I was envisioning the Mississippi River across from Nauvoo, upstream from St. Louis.

Doctrine & Covenants 125
3 Let them build up a city unto my name upon the land opposite the city of Nauvoo, and let the name of Zarahemla be named upon it.

I never thought all of the records were kept in 'a cave' at Cumorah, just the final abridged plates left by Moroni. Of course, I don't know. Moroni wandered around for over 20 years with what he had of the records until he found either more room on the abridged plates or ore with which to add his final entries.

Mormon 8
5 Behold, my father hath made this record, and he hath written the intent thereof. And behold, I would write it also if I had room upon the plates, but I have not; and ore I have none, for I am alone. My father hath been slain in battle, and all my kinsfolk, and I have not friends nor whither to go; and how long the Lord will suffer that I may live I know not.

Moroni 1
1 Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me.
2 For behold, their wars are exceedingly fierce among themselves; and because of their hatred they put to death every Nephite that will not deny the Christ.
3 And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.
4 Wherefore, I write a few more things, contrary to that which I had supposed; for I had supposed not to have written any more; but I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of worth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day, according to the will of the Lord.

Bear Butte is sacred to the Cheyenne People. On the north side of it there is a cave about which stories are told of a prophet who was given sacred laws for his people. When visiting Bear Butte I've felt that this isolated volcanic mountain may have served as a place of refuge for Moroni.

"For the Cheyenne, Bear Butte is known as Sacred Mountain and is the place where Maheo (the Supreme Being) gave their cultural hero, Sweet Medicine, the four Sacred Arrows, which allowed them access to Maheo’s power. The Cheyenne call this place Noahavose (also spelled Nowah’wus which means “The Hills Where the People are Taught”). On their historic migration to the Plains under the leadership of Sweet Medicine, a great door opened in Noahavose. Sweet Medicine was called inside by Maheo (the All Being). For four years Sweet Medicine remained in this lodge within and was instructed in the codes of law and behavior. Before returning to his people, Sweet Medicine was then given four sacred arrows. Thus, this is the holiest site in the Cheyenne world."

[buffalo_girl]

I should have mentioned that there are indigenous people with 'pure' ancestry in the Dakotas who are very fair skinned, some with blue eyes. A genealogist at Standing Rock has direct and branched family connections committed to memory. The Ft Yates Branch President - whose Native American ancestry is authenticated - has very light hair and very blue eyes. He looks fierce, but is a patient and kind man nonetheless.

Crazy Horse of Little Big Horn fame was said to also have light hair. "His mother, Tȟašína Ȟlaȟlá Wiŋ (Rattling Blanket Woman, born 1814), gave him the nickname Pȟehíŋ Yuȟáȟa (Curly) or Žiží (Light Hair) as his light curly hair resembled her own. She died when Crazy Horse was only four years old.[9]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Horse

[larsenb]

Apologies for the insult about the UP. Was having a particularly bad day on little sleep plus head butting w/wife over communication issues related to a building project, etc.

[buffalo_girl]

Apologies for the insult about the UP. Was having a particularly bad day on little sleep plus head butting w/wife over communication issues related to a building project, etc.

Larsenb ~ It's forgotten. Thank you, for letting me know it wasn't 'personal'.

Anyway, I think 'communication issues' over just about anything between husbands and wives may be the Great Mystery which will only be understood and mastered after passing a lot really hard tests as individuals and as couples while here in mortality.

It's possible we may have to continue the study for a long time afterwards.

[buffalo_girl]

Apologies for the insult about the UP. Was having a particularly bad day on little sleep plus head butting w/wife over communication issues related to a building project, etc.

Larsenb ~ It's forgotten. Thank you, for letting me know it wasn't an observation about my failure as a geologist. I'm not of a scientific inclination...more intuitive on a 'global scale'.

Anyway, I think 'communication issues' over just about anything between husbands and wives may be the Great Mystery which will only be understood and mastered after passing a lot of really hard tests as individuals and as couples while here in mortality.

It's possible we may have to continue the study for a long time afterwards.