Wilford woodruff journal quotes

[ElizaRSkousen]

You can find his journal on LDS.org and on several other websites. Here’s some notable selections. I share this as a historical observation.

January 25, 1880

Thus saith the Lord unto my servant, Wilford Woodruff, I have heard thy prayer and will answer thy petition. I will make known unto thee my will concerning the nations who encumber the land of promise and also concerning Zion and her inhabitants....

...And I say again, woe unto that nation or house or people who seek to hinder my people from obeying the Patriarchal law of Abraham, which leadeth to Celestial Glory, which has been revealed unto my Saints through the mouth of my servant Joseph, for whosoever doeth these things shall be damned, saith the Lord of Hosts, and shall be broken up and wasted away from under heaven by the judgments which I have sent forth, and which shall not return unto me void.

December 20 1885

One year has passed away since the prosicution and Persecution Commenced against the Latter Day Saints for Poligamy and the Persecution has increased more & more untill the present time untill 40 or 50 of our Elders are imprisioned for obeying the Law of God And Now the Congress of the United States are attempting to Pass Laws to destroy the Latter Day Saints and take away all our rights. Our Nation is fast ripening itself and getting Prepared for the Judgments of God which will Cause there utter overthrow & destruction.

November 24 1889

”I Attended A meeting with the Lawyiers at the Gardo in the Evening. They wanted me to Make some Concessin to Court upon Poligamy & other Points and I spent Several Hours alone & Enquired of the Lord and received the following:”

Thus Saith the Lord, to my Servant Wilford...Let not my servants who are called to the Presidency of my church, deny my word or my law, which concerns the salvation of the children of men. Let them pray for the Holy Spirit, which shall be given them to guide them in their acts. Place not yourselves in jeopardy to your enemies by promise. Your enemies seek your distruction and the distraction of my people. If the Saints
will hearken unto my voice, and the counsel of my Servants, the wicked shall not prevail.

September 2? 1890

I have arived at a point in the History of my life as the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints whare I am under the necessity of acting for the Temporal Salvation of the Church. The United State Governmet has taken a Stand & passed Laws to destroy the
Latter day Saints upon the Subjet of poligamy or Patriarchal order of Marriage. And after Praying
to the Lord & feeling inspired by his spirit I have issued the following Proclamation which is sustaind by My Councillors and the 12 Apostles:

Then the official declaration on sep 25, 1890.

[Sarah]

The important part is that after meeting with the lawyers, the Lord told him to make no concessions or promises to the courts, because of their enemy conspiring to destroy the saints. He was told that the presidency should seek the Holy Spirit for direction, and the saints were to follow the word of the Lord through his servants. That is exactly what happened almost a year later with the manifesto, an inspired document that delivered the saints from their enemies.

[Chip]

The important part is that after meeting with the lawyers, the Lord told him to make no concessions or promises to the courts, because of their enemy conspiring to destroy the saints. He was told that the presidency should seek the Holy Spirit for direction, and the saints were to follow the word of the Lord through his servants. That is exactly what happened almost a year later with the manifesto, an inspired document that delivered the saints from their enemies.

But didn't it deliver the saints from their enemies by having them acquiesce to their enemy's demands? Which they were initially warned against doing?

[Sarah]

The important part is that after meeting with the lawyers, the Lord told him to make no concessions or promises to the courts, because of their enemy conspiring to destroy the saints. He was told that the presidency should seek the Holy Spirit for direction, and the saints were to follow the word of the Lord through his servants. That is exactly what happened almost a year later with the manifesto, an inspired document that delivered the saints from their enemies.

But didn't it deliver the saints from their enemies by having them acquiesce to their enemy's demands? Which they were initially warned against doing?

Yes, that's apparently how the Lord works somtimes. It was on the Lord's terms and timing. The Saints couldn't progress with the higher laws any more for numerous reasons. The deliverance and judgements upon their enemies they anticipated never came, and things were getting worse and worse for them. What could the Lord have inspired them to do at that point?

[ElizaRSkousen]

The important part is that after meeting with the lawyers, the Lord told him to make no concessions or promises to the courts, because of their enemy conspiring to destroy the saints. He was told that the presidency should seek the Holy Spirit for direction, and the saints were to follow the word of the Lord through his servants. That is exactly what happened almost a year later with the manifesto, an inspired document that delivered the saints from their enemies.

But didn't it deliver the saints from their enemies by having them acquiesce to their enemy's demands? Which they were initially warned against doing?

Yes, that's apparently how the Lord works somtimes. It was on the Lord's terms and timing. The Saints couldn't progress with the higher laws any more for numerous reasons. The deliverance and judgements upon their enemies they anticipated never came, and things were getting worse and worse for them. What could the Lord have inspired them to do at that point?

I guess be ready to be arrested or fight. Here’s more from the same revelation:

And then, saith the Lord unto mine Apostles and mine Elders, when ye do these things with purity of heart, I the Lord will hear your prayers and am bound by oath and covenant to defend you and fight your battles.
As I have said in a former commandment, it is not my will that mine Elders should fight the battles of Zion, for I will fight your battles.
Nevertheless, let no man be afraid to lay down his life for my sake, for he that layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again and have eternal life.
The nation is ripened in iniquity and the cup of the wrath of mine indignation is full and I will not stay my hand in judgments upon this nation or the nations of the earth.....As I the Lord have suffered, so will I put all enemies under my feet. For I the Lord utter my word and it shall be obeyed.

[Sarah]

The important part is that after meeting with the lawyers, the Lord told him to make no concessions or promises to the courts, because of their enemy conspiring to destroy the saints. He was told that the presidency should seek the Holy Spirit for direction, and the saints were to follow the word of the Lord through his servants. That is exactly what happened almost a year later with the manifesto, an inspired document that delivered the saints from their enemies.

But didn't it deliver the saints from their enemies by having them acquiesce to their enemy's demands? Which they were initially warned against doing?

Yes, that's apparently how the Lord works somtimes. It was on the Lord's terms and timing. The Saints couldn't progress with the higher laws any more for numerous reasons. The deliverance and judgements upon their enemies they anticipated never came, and things were getting worse and worse for them. What could the Lord have inspired them to do at that point?

I guess be ready to be arrested or fight. Here’s more from the same revelation:

And then, saith the Lord unto mine Apostles and mine Elders, when ye do these things with purity of heart, I the Lord will hear your prayers and am bound by oath and covenant to defend you and fight your battles.
As I have said in a former commandment, it is not my will that mine Elders should fight the battles of Zion, for I will fight your battles.
Nevertheless, let no man be afraid to lay down his life for my sake, for he that layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again and have eternal life.
The nation is ripened in iniquity and the cup of the wrath of mine indignation is full and I will not stay my hand in judgments upon this nation or the nations of the earth.....As I the Lord have suffered, so will I put all enemies under my feet. For I the Lord utter my word and it shall be obeyed.

This is the same type of situation the saints faced in Missouri, expecting the Lord fight their battles when they went to claim the land of Zion and ran into resistance. No one claims Joseph or Brigham were misled because they led the saints away from the true place of Zion, and gave into their enemies' demands. But that is what some are claiming with Wilford Woodruff, that he must have been misled. We see the same arguments today with issues our brethren are facing. "They must be misled because they are giving into Babylon!"

They had already been suffering arrest for the last 10 years. The Lord says here that when you "do these things with purity of heart" he will hear your prayers. I don't believe all of them were pure in heart when it came to plural marriage, and that is evidenced by the break off of a few of the apostles after the manifesto, and they lied and deceived others into continuing the practice. The brethren were not united - and that is the bottom line. Unity brings blessings.

[topcat]

1 Nephi 3:7 comes to mind.

Does anyone here believe that IF the Lord commands something, that He will prepare a way for the commanded person/people to accomplish the thing commanded?

With that principle in mind:

1) Does the Church assert that the Lord command polygamy to be practiced by the modern Gentile Mormons? The answer would be yes. (Two conflicting viewpoints: 1) He commanded Joseph Smith and he privately taught and practiced the commandment; and 2) Joseph never did any such thing, but Brigham was the founder of the practice.)

2) Did the Lord provide a way for the alleged commandment to be kept? Can the answer be anything but "NO"?


Per the WW quotes above, WW to the very last minute was sticking to his story, that the Lord was commanding it. The above quotes show this very clearly. WW was not backing down. Even after meeting with the lawyers who were explaining the consequences of doing battle against Mammon/Babylon (the U.S. government), WW claims to have received this revelation:

Let not my servants who are called to the Presidency of my church, deny my word or my law, which concerns the salvation of the children of men.

WW stood firm. The date of this revelation? Nov. 24, 1889.

And then finally (just months later), WW realized that Babylon was stronger than the LDS leadership, and God was not on the side of polygamy and certainly wasn't going to prepare a way to keep the so-called "commandment". 1 Nephi 3:7 became an inconvenient truth. "Oops! We're exposed!"

1890 was the year the Church reversed itself. And in this year, Joseph and Emma were vindicated. They both clearly rebuked and disavowed the teaching. Common sense thinkers can plainly see that God doesn't reverse his doctrines of salvation. Those are eternal, and must necessarily be that way. Truth is truth, and unchanging, yesterday, today, and forever.

So it's quite elementary that God was not behind the commandment. To believe God was behind polygamy is to mock 1 Nephi 3:7, and to say Joseph was a liar, and Emma too.

The cognitive dissonance whispers to those who see nothing wrong with this order of things:

"Joseph Smith wasn't fallen. He was a true prophet. He was secretly commanded to practice and secretly teach to his inner circle the teaching of plural marriage whereby a man could have legal sex with lots of women approved in the sight of God. Joseph was an obedient servant who reluctantly complied with this celestial commandment, even though it broke Emma's heart. Joseph knew that it would cause hardship for himself and the people who practiced it, but this teaching had to be restored since all things would be restored. He was motivated to practice it when the angel appeared to him, bearing a sword and a sober warning to obey. Brigham then faithfully perpetuated the teaching privately and then taught it openly. His closest followers practiced it, including subsequent leaders of the Church."

That doesn't sound very convincing. I'm actually having trouble thinking with the mindset of one who can justify this teaching. Somebody help me! How does one justify that Joseph taught and practiced plural marriage in secret?

"Oh yes, let's not forget that polygamy was sanctioned by God in the Old Testament. That in and of itself is proof that God sometimes authorizes it, to raise up seed! We don't have to understand it. We just must obey. Adam didn't understand why he was commanded to make sacrifices. But he did it anyway. This is evidence of Restoration. God restored polygamy. Joseph reluctantly practiced it."

But a few questions, "Mr. and Mrs. Faithful to LDS Official History TBM":

1) How do you explain that Joseph disavowed the practice and fought against it while he was alive? "Sorry, I have no explanation."

2) How can you explain that Emma denied her husband taught or practiced it till the day she died? "Sorry, I have no explanation."

3) Due to historical records indicating Joseph harshly and unequivocally condemned polygamy, there is a choice: Joseph was lying or Brigham was lying. Do you agree this is the choice? "Well, being that the quotes are real, it appears Joseph did fight against polygamy, but on the other hand, there are dozens of quotes and affidavits, etc. from Brigham's era in Utah that testify Joseph did secretly practice and teach it. The evidence is overwhelming Joseph did have plural wives and secretly taught the commandment." But Joseph rebuked the practice. Was he lying? "Pearls before swine. He couldn't come out in the open. The time wasn't right. The time for public teaching came later after his death."

4) Here's the rub: If you vehemently and passionately argue that Joseph Smith was true, that he WAS commanded to practice it and teach it, but reluctantly was obedient, and you say that Brigham was truthful and only taught what Joseph restored (presenting gobs of evidence to support this belief), then don't you have egg on your face decades later when Church changes the teaching in 1890? Don't you look a little silly at this point? How do you explain that if God did command it secretly in Joseph's day, and if subsequent LDS leaders proclaimed it to be required for exaltation, how and why would God ever reverse Himself in 1890? "God is God and does according to His own goodwill and pleasure."

5) Do you not see any coincidence in God's reversal coming precisely at the time the U.S. government is giving the ultimatum to cease the practice or lose your property? "God inspired His servants to reverse themselves to save the Church temporally, to enable it to live to fight another day."


I think the Church's official position is nigh impossible to defend. Any such defense just looks silly and ridiculous. The ONLY way they can argue is to gaslight!!! Here's their gaslighting strategy:

1) NEVER, EVER acknowledge or admit there's another side to the story. Push the official narrative while ignoring opposing views. In other words, say this:

* Polygamy was practiced anciently.
* Joseph was the prophet of the Restoration.
* He therefore restored it.
* Yes, he did SECRETLY practice and teach it.
* Brigham Young faithfully followed the divine teaching.
* God inspired His servants to cease the practice in 1890.

The ABOVE is the official narrative. The rebuttal:

Joseph repudiated the practice. He condemned it. He fought against it. He excommunicated those who practiced it. As proof it was not of God, God "reversed" Himself in 1890. The fact that stands unopposed by the Church is that God did not defend those who practiced it. God did not sustain them. God allowed the government to impose its will on the practitioners of polygamy. 1 Nephi 3:7. A way was not given by God for the "faithful" to practice the "will of God."

[ElizaRSkousen]

1 Nephi 3:7 comes to mind.

Does anyone here believe that IF the Lord commands something, that He will prepare a way for the commanded person/people to accomplish the thing commanded?

With that principle in mind:

1) Does the Church assert that the Lord command polygamy to be practiced by the modern Gentile Mormons? The answer would be yes. (Two conflicting viewpoints: 1) He commanded Joseph Smith and he privately taught and practiced the commandment; and 2) Joseph never did any such thing, but Brigham was the founder of the practice.)

2) Did the Lord provide a way for the alleged commandment to be kept? Can the answer be anything but "NO"?


Per the WW quotes above, WW to the very last minute was sticking to his story, that the Lord was commanding it. The above quotes show this very clearly. WW was not backing down. Even after meeting with the lawyers who were explaining the consequences of doing battle against Mammon/Babylon (the U.S. government), WW claims to have received this revelation:

Let not my servants who are called to the Presidency of my church, deny my word or my law, which concerns the salvation of the children of men.

WW stood firm. The date of this revelation? Nov. 24, 1889.

And then finally (just months later), WW realized that Babylon was stronger than the LDS leadership, and God was not on the side of polygamy and certainly wasn't going to prepare a way to keep the so-called "commandment". 1 Nephi 3:7 became an inconvenient truth. "Oops! We're exposed!"

1890 was the year the Church reversed itself. And in this year, Joseph and Emma were vindicated. They both clearly rebuked and disavowed the teaching. Common sense thinkers can plainly see that God doesn't reverse his doctrines of salvation. Those are eternal, and must necessarily be that way. Truth is truth, and unchanging, yesterday, today, and forever.

So it's quite elementary that God was not behind the commandment. To believe God was behind polygamy is to mock 1 Nephi 3:7, and to say Joseph was a liar, and Emma too.

The cognitive dissonance whispers to those who see nothing wrong with this order of things:

"Joseph Smith wasn't fallen. He was a true prophet. He was secretly commanded to practice and secretly teach to his inner circle the teaching of plural marriage whereby a man could have legal sex with lots of women approved in the sight of God. Joseph was an obedient servant who reluctantly complied with this celestial commandment, even though it broke Emma's heart. Joseph knew that it would cause hardship for himself and the people who practiced it, but this teaching had to be restored since all things would be restored. He was motivated to practice it when the angel appeared to him, bearing a sword and a sober warning to obey. Brigham then faithfully perpetuated the teaching privately and then taught it openly. His closest followers practiced it, including subsequent leaders of the Church."

That doesn't sound very convincing. I'm actually having trouble thinking with the mindset of one who can justify this teaching. Somebody help me! How does one justify that Joseph taught and practiced plural marriage in secret?

"Oh yes, let's not forget that polygamy was sanctioned by God in the Old Testament. That in and of itself is proof that God sometimes authorizes it, to raise up seed! We don't have to understand it. We just must obey. Adam didn't understand why he was commanded to make sacrifices. But he did it anyway. This is evidence of Restoration. God restored polygamy. Joseph reluctantly practiced it."

But a few questions, "Mr. and Mrs. Faithful to LDS Official History TBM":

1) How do you explain that Joseph disavowed the practice and fought against it while he was alive? "Sorry, I have no explanation."

2) How can you explain that Emma denied her husband taught or practiced it till the day she died? "Sorry, I have no explanation."

3) Due to historical records indicating Joseph harshly and unequivocally condemned polygamy, there is a choice: Joseph was lying or Brigham was lying. Do you agree this is the choice? "Well, being that the quotes are real, it appears Joseph did fight against polygamy, but on the other hand, there are dozens of quotes and affidavits, etc. from Brigham's era in Utah that testify Joseph did secretly practice and teach it. The evidence is overwhelming Joseph did have plural wives and secretly taught the commandment." But Joseph rebuked the practice. Was he lying? "Pearls before swine. He couldn't come out in the open. The time wasn't right. The time for public teaching came later after his death."

4) Here's the rub: If you vehemently and passionately argue that Joseph Smith was true, that he WAS commanded to practice it and teach it, but reluctantly was obedient, and you say that Brigham was truthful and only taught what Joseph restored (presenting gobs of evidence to support this belief), then don't you have egg on your face decades later when Church changes the teaching in 1890? Don't you look a little silly at this point? How do you explain that if God did command it secretly in Joseph's day, and if subsequent LDS leaders proclaimed it to be required for exaltation, how and why would God ever reverse Himself in 1890? "God is God and does according to His own goodwill and pleasure."

5) Do you not see any coincidence in God's reversal coming precisely at the time the U.S. government is giving the ultimatum to cease the practice or lose your property? "God inspired His servants to reverse themselves to save the Church temporally, to enable it to live to fight another day."


I think the Church's official position is nigh impossible to defend. Any such defense just looks silly and ridiculous. The ONLY way they can argue is to gaslight!!! Here's their gaslighting strategy:

1) NEVER, EVER acknowledge or admit there's another side to the story. Push the official narrative while ignoring opposing views. In other words, say this:

* Polygamy was practiced anciently.
* Joseph was the prophet of the Restoration.
* He therefore restored it.
* Yes, he did SECRETLY practice and teach it.
* Brigham Young faithfully followed the divine teaching.
* God inspired His servants to cease the practice in 1890.

The ABOVE is the official narrative. The rebuttal:

Joseph repudiated the practice. He condemned it. He fought against it. He excommunicated those who practiced it. As proof it was not of God, God "reversed" Himself in 1890. The fact that stands unopposed by the Church is that God did not defend those who practiced it. God did not sustain them. God allowed the government to impose its will on the practitioners of polygamy. 1 Nephi 3:7. A way was not given by God for the "faithful" to practice the "will of God."

A very convincing argument, however there was never a “this saith the lord” written revelation like there had been for every other major change in the church prior to this point (and there hasn’t been any after, either) just a press release, and then a real official second manifesto.

[cab]

what a mess

[Chip]

The important part is that after meeting with the lawyers, the Lord told him to make no concessions or promises to the courts, because of their enemy conspiring to destroy the saints. He was told that the presidency should seek the Holy Spirit for direction, and the saints were to follow the word of the Lord through his servants. That is exactly what happened almost a year later with the manifesto, an inspired document that delivered the saints from their enemies.

But didn't it deliver the saints from their enemies by having them acquiesce to their enemy's demands? Which they were initially warned against doing?

Yes, that's apparently how the Lord works somtimes. It was on the Lord's terms and timing. The Saints couldn't progress with the higher laws any more for numerous reasons. The deliverance and judgements upon their enemies they anticipated never came, and things were getting worse and worse for them. What could the Lord have inspired them to do at that point?

I see that makes the pieces fit, but I can't believe God would put everyone through that for something that, by overwhelming appearances, should never have been, in the first place. Seems like they were on their own and having to make it up as they went, having lost the real direction from the Lord. I mean, apostles were sneaking around dressed as women to avoid the Feds, sometimes unsuccessfully. How God-inspired could that have been? No way, I think. Strong delusion, rather. And, really, who does this narrative serve? You and I? Kind of like how America's adventurous wars serve our citizens? I say it's other people's agendas at work, not for the body of Christ. The bible and Book of Mormon teach us way better than that.

[simpleton]

1 Nephi 3:7 comes to mind.

Does anyone here believe that IF the Lord commands something, that He will prepare a way for the commanded person/people to accomplish the thing commanded?

With that principle in mind:

1) Does the Church assert that the Lord command polygamy to be practiced by the modern Gentile Mormons? The answer would be yes. (Two conflicting viewpoints: 1) He commanded Joseph Smith and he privately taught and practiced the commandment; and 2) Joseph never did any such thing, but Brigham was the founder of the practice.)

2) Did the Lord provide a way for the alleged commandment to be kept? Can the answer be anything but "NO"?


Per the WW quotes above, WW to the very last minute was sticking to his story, that the Lord was commanding it. The above quotes show this very clearly. WW was not backing down. Even after meeting with the lawyers who were explaining the consequences of doing battle against Mammon/Babylon (the U.S. government), WW claims to have received this revelation:

Let not my servants who are called to the Presidency of my church, deny my word or my law, which concerns the salvation of the children of men.

WW stood firm. The date of this revelation? Nov. 24, 1889.

And then finally (just months later), WW realized that Babylon was stronger than the LDS leadership, and God was not on the side of polygamy and certainly wasn't going to prepare a way to keep the so-called "commandment". 1 Nephi 3:7 became an inconvenient truth. "Oops! We're exposed!"

1890 was the year the Church reversed itself. And in this year, Joseph and Emma were vindicated. They both clearly rebuked and disavowed the teaching. Common sense thinkers can plainly see that God doesn't reverse his doctrines of salvation. Those are eternal, and must necessarily be that way. Truth is truth, and unchanging, yesterday, today, and forever.

So it's quite elementary that God was not behind the commandment. To believe God was behind polygamy is to mock 1 Nephi 3:7, and to say Joseph was a liar, and Emma too.

The cognitive dissonance whispers to those who see nothing wrong with this order of things:

"Joseph Smith wasn't fallen. He was a true prophet. He was secretly commanded to practice and secretly teach to his inner circle the teaching of plural marriage whereby a man could have legal sex with lots of women approved in the sight of God. Joseph was an obedient servant who reluctantly complied with this celestial commandment, even though it broke Emma's heart. Joseph knew that it would cause hardship for himself and the people who practiced it, but this teaching had to be restored since all things would be restored. He was motivated to practice it when the angel appeared to him, bearing a sword and a sober warning to obey. Brigham then faithfully perpetuated the teaching privately and then taught it openly. His closest followers practiced it, including subsequent leaders of the Church."

That doesn't sound very convincing. I'm actually having trouble thinking with the mindset of one who can justify this teaching. Somebody help me! How does one justify that Joseph taught and practiced plural marriage in secret?

"Oh yes, let's not forget that polygamy was sanctioned by God in the Old Testament. That in and of itself is proof that God sometimes authorizes it, to raise up seed! We don't have to understand it. We just must obey. Adam didn't understand why he was commanded to make sacrifices. But he did it anyway. This is evidence of Restoration. God restored polygamy. Joseph reluctantly practiced it."

But a few questions, "Mr. and Mrs. Faithful to LDS Official History TBM":

1) How do you explain that Joseph disavowed the practice and fought against it while he was alive? "Sorry, I have no explanation."

2) How can you explain that Emma denied her husband taught or practiced it till the day she died? "Sorry, I have no explanation."

3) Due to historical records indicating Joseph harshly and unequivocally condemned polygamy, there is a choice: Joseph was lying or Brigham was lying. Do you agree this is the choice? "Well, being that the quotes are real, it appears Joseph did fight against polygamy, but on the other hand, there are dozens of quotes and affidavits, etc. from Brigham's era in Utah that testify Joseph did secretly practice and teach it. The evidence is overwhelming Joseph did have plural wives and secretly taught the commandment." But Joseph rebuked the practice. Was he lying? "Pearls before swine. He couldn't come out in the open. The time wasn't right. The time for public teaching came later after his death."

4) Here's the rub: If you vehemently and passionately argue that Joseph Smith was true, that he WAS commanded to practice it and teach it, but reluctantly was obedient, and you say that Brigham was truthful and only taught what Joseph restored (presenting gobs of evidence to support this belief), then don't you have egg on your face decades later when Church changes the teaching in 1890? Don't you look a little silly at this point? How do you explain that if God did command it secretly in Joseph's day, and if subsequent LDS leaders proclaimed it to be required for exaltation, how and why would God ever reverse Himself in 1890? "God is God and does according to His own goodwill and pleasure."

5) Do you not see any coincidence in God's reversal coming precisely at the time the U.S. government is giving the ultimatum to cease the practice or lose your property? "God inspired His servants to reverse themselves to save the Church temporally, to enable it to live to fight another day."


I think the Church's official position is nigh impossible to defend. Any such defense just looks silly and ridiculous. The ONLY way they can argue is to gaslight!!! Here's their gaslighting strategy:

1) NEVER, EVER acknowledge or admit there's another side to the story. Push the official narrative while ignoring opposing views. In other words, say this:

* Polygamy was practiced anciently.
* Joseph was the prophet of the Restoration.
* He therefore restored it.
* Yes, he did SECRETLY practice and teach it.
* Brigham Young faithfully followed the divine teaching.
* God inspired His servants to cease the practice in 1890.

The ABOVE is the official narrative. The rebuttal:

Joseph repudiated the practice. He condemned it. He fought against it. He excommunicated those who practiced it. As proof it was not of God, God "reversed" Himself in 1890. The fact that stands unopposed by the Church is that God did not defend those who practiced it. God did not sustain them. God allowed the government to impose its will on the practitioners of polygamy. 1 Nephi 3:7. A way was not given by God for the "faithful" to practice the "will of God."

Every single polygamous group, and for that matter most individual " independants" out there, would completely disagree with you.......

They absolutely believe God provided many ways to continue living that law. As they actually continue living it unabated since the "church" abandoned it. For that matter, what is even more ironic is the church went from being persecuted to prosecutor. And even worse, it went from hiding its federally hunted polygamous practitioners to literally conspiring with the law to viciously prosecuted polygamous practitioners, to "stamp out" what our wonderful president Lincoln called "the twin relics of barbarianism"...

As I've said before, if Joseph Smith on down through the next 6 "prophets" , and all the prophets of old, including even Jesus Christ were to come along, the Church would have them all prosecuted and hounded out of society for their polygamous marriage relations. And that is a sad fact of life....

[harakim]

1 Nephi 3:7 comes to mind.

Does anyone here believe that IF the Lord commands something, that He will prepare a way for the commanded person/people to accomplish the thing commanded?

With that principle in mind:

1) Does the Church assert that the Lord command polygamy to be practiced by the modern Gentile Mormons? The answer would be yes. (Two conflicting viewpoints: 1) He commanded Joseph Smith and he privately taught and practiced the commandment; and 2) Joseph never did any such thing, but Brigham was the founder of the practice.)

2) Did the Lord provide a way for the alleged commandment to be kept? Can the answer be anything but "NO"?


Per the WW quotes above, WW to the very last minute was sticking to his story, that the Lord was commanding it. The above quotes show this very clearly. WW was not backing down. Even after meeting with the lawyers who were explaining the consequences of doing battle against Mammon/Babylon (the U.S. government), WW claims to have received this revelation:

Let not my servants who are called to the Presidency of my church, deny my word or my law, which concerns the salvation of the children of men.

WW stood firm. The date of this revelation? Nov. 24, 1889.

And then finally (just months later), WW realized that Babylon was stronger than the LDS leadership, and God was not on the side of polygamy and certainly wasn't going to prepare a way to keep the so-called "commandment". 1 Nephi 3:7 became an inconvenient truth. "Oops! We're exposed!"

1890 was the year the Church reversed itself. And in this year, Joseph and Emma were vindicated. They both clearly rebuked and disavowed the teaching. Common sense thinkers can plainly see that God doesn't reverse his doctrines of salvation. Those are eternal, and must necessarily be that way. Truth is truth, and unchanging, yesterday, today, and forever.

So it's quite elementary that God was not behind the commandment. To believe God was behind polygamy is to mock 1 Nephi 3:7, and to say Joseph was a liar, and Emma too.

The cognitive dissonance whispers to those who see nothing wrong with this order of things:

"Joseph Smith wasn't fallen. He was a true prophet. He was secretly commanded to practice and secretly teach to his inner circle the teaching of plural marriage whereby a man could have legal sex with lots of women approved in the sight of God. Joseph was an obedient servant who reluctantly complied with this celestial commandment, even though it broke Emma's heart. Joseph knew that it would cause hardship for himself and the people who practiced it, but this teaching had to be restored since all things would be restored. He was motivated to practice it when the angel appeared to him, bearing a sword and a sober warning to obey. Brigham then faithfully perpetuated the teaching privately and then taught it openly. His closest followers practiced it, including subsequent leaders of the Church."

That doesn't sound very convincing. I'm actually having trouble thinking with the mindset of one who can justify this teaching. Somebody help me! How does one justify that Joseph taught and practiced plural marriage in secret?

"Oh yes, let's not forget that polygamy was sanctioned by God in the Old Testament. That in and of itself is proof that God sometimes authorizes it, to raise up seed! We don't have to understand it. We just must obey. Adam didn't understand why he was commanded to make sacrifices. But he did it anyway. This is evidence of Restoration. God restored polygamy. Joseph reluctantly practiced it."

But a few questions, "Mr. and Mrs. Faithful to LDS Official History TBM":

1) How do you explain that Joseph disavowed the practice and fought against it while he was alive? "Sorry, I have no explanation."

2) How can you explain that Emma denied her husband taught or practiced it till the day she died? "Sorry, I have no explanation."

3) Due to historical records indicating Joseph harshly and unequivocally condemned polygamy, there is a choice: Joseph was lying or Brigham was lying. Do you agree this is the choice? "Well, being that the quotes are real, it appears Joseph did fight against polygamy, but on the other hand, there are dozens of quotes and affidavits, etc. from Brigham's era in Utah that testify Joseph did secretly practice and teach it. The evidence is overwhelming Joseph did have plural wives and secretly taught the commandment." But Joseph rebuked the practice. Was he lying? "Pearls before swine. He couldn't come out in the open. The time wasn't right. The time for public teaching came later after his death."

4) Here's the rub: If you vehemently and passionately argue that Joseph Smith was true, that he WAS commanded to practice it and teach it, but reluctantly was obedient, and you say that Brigham was truthful and only taught what Joseph restored (presenting gobs of evidence to support this belief), then don't you have egg on your face decades later when Church changes the teaching in 1890? Don't you look a little silly at this point? How do you explain that if God did command it secretly in Joseph's day, and if subsequent LDS leaders proclaimed it to be required for exaltation, how and why would God ever reverse Himself in 1890? "God is God and does according to His own goodwill and pleasure."

5) Do you not see any coincidence in God's reversal coming precisely at the time the U.S. government is giving the ultimatum to cease the practice or lose your property? "God inspired His servants to reverse themselves to save the Church temporally, to enable it to live to fight another day."


I think the Church's official position is nigh impossible to defend. Any such defense just looks silly and ridiculous. The ONLY way they can argue is to gaslight!!! Here's their gaslighting strategy:

1) NEVER, EVER acknowledge or admit there's another side to the story. Push the official narrative while ignoring opposing views. In other words, say this:

* Polygamy was practiced anciently.
* Joseph was the prophet of the Restoration.
* He therefore restored it.
* Yes, he did SECRETLY practice and teach it.
* Brigham Young faithfully followed the divine teaching.
* God inspired His servants to cease the practice in 1890.

The ABOVE is the official narrative. The rebuttal:

Joseph repudiated the practice. He condemned it. He fought against it. He excommunicated those who practiced it. As proof it was not of God, God "reversed" Himself in 1890. The fact that stands unopposed by the Church is that God did not defend those who practiced it. God did not sustain them. God allowed the government to impose its will on the practitioners of polygamy. 1 Nephi 3:7. A way was not given by God for the "faithful" to practice the "will of God."

Every single polygamous group, and for that matter most individual " independants" out there, would completely disagree with you.......

They absolutely believe God provided many ways to continue living that law. As they actually continue living it unabated since the "church" abandoned it. For that matter, what is even more ironic is the church went from being persecuted to prosecutor. And even worse, it went from hiding its federally hunted polygamous practitioners to literally conspiring with the law to viciously prosecuted polygamous practitioners, to "stamp out" what our wonderful president Lincoln called "the twin relics of barbarianism"...

As I've said before, if Joseph Smith on down through the next 6 "prophets" , and all the prophets of old, including even Jesus Christ were to come along, the Church would have them all prosecuted and hounded out of society for their polygamous marriage relations. And that is a sad fact of life....

I didn't always live in Utah. When I moved, it was very strange to me that the Church was the number one persecutor of polygamist groups.

[topcat]

1 Nephi 3:7 comes to mind.

Does anyone here believe that IF the Lord commands something, that He will prepare a way for the commanded person/people to accomplish the thing commanded?

With that principle in mind:

1) Does the Church assert that the Lord command polygamy to be practiced by the modern Gentile Mormons? The answer would be yes. (Two conflicting viewpoints: 1) He commanded Joseph Smith and he privately taught and practiced the commandment; and 2) Joseph never did any such thing, but Brigham was the founder of the practice.)

2) Did the Lord provide a way for the alleged commandment to be kept? Can the answer be anything but "NO"?


Per the WW quotes above, WW to the very last minute was sticking to his story, that the Lord was commanding it. The above quotes show this very clearly. WW was not backing down. Even after meeting with the lawyers who were explaining the consequences of doing battle against Mammon/Babylon (the U.S. government), WW claims to have received this revelation:

Let not my servants who are called to the Presidency of my church, deny my word or my law, which concerns the salvation of the children of men.

WW stood firm. The date of this revelation? Nov. 24, 1889.

And then finally (just months later), WW realized that Babylon was stronger than the LDS leadership, and God was not on the side of polygamy and certainly wasn't going to prepare a way to keep the so-called "commandment". 1 Nephi 3:7 became an inconvenient truth. "Oops! We're exposed!"

1890 was the year the Church reversed itself. And in this year, Joseph and Emma were vindicated. They both clearly rebuked and disavowed the teaching. Common sense thinkers can plainly see that God doesn't reverse his doctrines of salvation. Those are eternal, and must necessarily be that way. Truth is truth, and unchanging, yesterday, today, and forever.

So it's quite elementary that God was not behind the commandment. To believe God was behind polygamy is to mock 1 Nephi 3:7, and to say Joseph was a liar, and Emma too.

The cognitive dissonance whispers to those who see nothing wrong with this order of things:

"Joseph Smith wasn't fallen. He was a true prophet. He was secretly commanded to practice and secretly teach to his inner circle the teaching of plural marriage whereby a man could have legal sex with lots of women approved in the sight of God. Joseph was an obedient servant who reluctantly complied with this celestial commandment, even though it broke Emma's heart. Joseph knew that it would cause hardship for himself and the people who practiced it, but this teaching had to be restored since all things would be restored. He was motivated to practice it when the angel appeared to him, bearing a sword and a sober warning to obey. Brigham then faithfully perpetuated the teaching privately and then taught it openly. His closest followers practiced it, including subsequent leaders of the Church."

That doesn't sound very convincing. I'm actually having trouble thinking with the mindset of one who can justify this teaching. Somebody help me! How does one justify that Joseph taught and practiced plural marriage in secret?

"Oh yes, let's not forget that polygamy was sanctioned by God in the Old Testament. That in and of itself is proof that God sometimes authorizes it, to raise up seed! We don't have to understand it. We just must obey. Adam didn't understand why he was commanded to make sacrifices. But he did it anyway. This is evidence of Restoration. God restored polygamy. Joseph reluctantly practiced it."

But a few questions, "Mr. and Mrs. Faithful to LDS Official History TBM":

1) How do you explain that Joseph disavowed the practice and fought against it while he was alive? "Sorry, I have no explanation."

2) How can you explain that Emma denied her husband taught or practiced it till the day she died? "Sorry, I have no explanation."

3) Due to historical records indicating Joseph harshly and unequivocally condemned polygamy, there is a choice: Joseph was lying or Brigham was lying. Do you agree this is the choice? "Well, being that the quotes are real, it appears Joseph did fight against polygamy, but on the other hand, there are dozens of quotes and affidavits, etc. from Brigham's era in Utah that testify Joseph did secretly practice and teach it. The evidence is overwhelming Joseph did have plural wives and secretly taught the commandment." But Joseph rebuked the practice. Was he lying? "Pearls before swine. He couldn't come out in the open. The time wasn't right. The time for public teaching came later after his death."

4) Here's the rub: If you vehemently and passionately argue that Joseph Smith was true, that he WAS commanded to practice it and teach it, but reluctantly was obedient, and you say that Brigham was truthful and only taught what Joseph restored (presenting gobs of evidence to support this belief), then don't you have egg on your face decades later when Church changes the teaching in 1890? Don't you look a little silly at this point? How do you explain that if God did command it secretly in Joseph's day, and if subsequent LDS leaders proclaimed it to be required for exaltation, how and why would God ever reverse Himself in 1890? "God is God and does according to His own goodwill and pleasure."

5) Do you not see any coincidence in God's reversal coming precisely at the time the U.S. government is giving the ultimatum to cease the practice or lose your property? "God inspired His servants to reverse themselves to save the Church temporally, to enable it to live to fight another day."


I think the Church's official position is nigh impossible to defend. Any such defense just looks silly and ridiculous. The ONLY way they can argue is to gaslight!!! Here's their gaslighting strategy:

1) NEVER, EVER acknowledge or admit there's another side to the story. Push the official narrative while ignoring opposing views. In other words, say this:

* Polygamy was practiced anciently.
* Joseph was the prophet of the Restoration.
* He therefore restored it.
* Yes, he did SECRETLY practice and teach it.
* Brigham Young faithfully followed the divine teaching.
* God inspired His servants to cease the practice in 1890.

The ABOVE is the official narrative. The rebuttal:

Joseph repudiated the practice. He condemned it. He fought against it. He excommunicated those who practiced it. As proof it was not of God, God "reversed" Himself in 1890. The fact that stands unopposed by the Church is that God did not defend those who practiced it. God did not sustain them. God allowed the government to impose its will on the practitioners of polygamy. 1 Nephi 3:7. A way was not given by God for the "faithful" to practice the "will of God."

Every single polygamous group, and for that matter most individual " independants" out there, would completely disagree with you.......

They absolutely believe God provided many ways to continue living that law. As they actually continue living it unabated since the "church" abandoned it. For that matter, what is even more ironic is the church went from being persecuted to prosecutor. And even worse, it went from hiding its federally hunted polygamous practitioners to literally conspiring with the law to viciously prosecuted polygamous practitioners, to "stamp out" what our wonderful president Lincoln called "the twin relics of barbarianism"...

As I've said before, if Joseph Smith on down through the next 6 "prophets" , and all the prophets of old, including even Jesus Christ were to come along, the Church would have them all prosecuted and hounded out of society for their polygamous marriage relations. And that is a sad fact of life....

Good point. So in summary, one can make this stunning conclusion:

The Church not only disbelieves God provided a way to practice a sacred, celestial, and essential commandment (1 Nephi 3:7), the Church itself (Church leaders) actively pursues the prosecution of those who practice polygamy. In other words they act in opposition to God.

I will not do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I do not believe God shall prepare a way that we may accomplish the thing which he commandeth us, and I will persecute those who do attempt to follow God's commandment of polygamy.

if Joseph were alive today teaching what he supposedly taught about polygamy, the Church would have him reported to the authorities and arrested and jailed.

But, the Church says, Joseph would not be practicing polygamy today because he would also, like we have done, submit to the state rather than God.

The only explanation for this hot mess is for the Church to gaslight and say the Lord changed his mind in 1890. And we are expected to believe this had nothing to do with the state threatening to steal the church's property and to arrest practitioners.