BYU mascot Cosmo comes out as gay.

[Finrock]

. . . . . . Do the anecdotal stories of effeminate men who do not identify is homosexual or the anecdotal stories of tomboy girls who do not identify as lesbian hold the same weight with you as the anecdotal stories you shared? Because they are much more common than your examples. It seems to show it is more likely a choice than otherwise since there are no reliable indicators one can use.

Did you ever think that perhaps you and your friends teasing was more formative for this young man coming out as homosexual than genetics? Perhaps you put the initial thoughts in his head and reinforced them. He then internalized that he was different and began nurturing his difference and developing his fetish. I have yet to meet a homosexual that didn't have some experience that sent them down the path of investigating homosexuality (or any other fetish for that matter).

As I said earlier, you are equating your own natural desire/attraction for the opposite sex to homosexuality and I believe this to be a mistake. You are assuming that a homosexual must feel just like you when in reality your desire is biological while theirs is that of a carefully nurtured fetish.

Too often, people seem to ignore the prevalence of seduction among pre-and earlly teens and older, by even older homosexual males who actually may be adults.

Yeah, anything like this, is hands down evil and should not be ignored. But, how do you even address something like that?

-Finrock

[larsenb]

. . . . . . Do the anecdotal stories of effeminate men who do not identify is homosexual or the anecdotal stories of tomboy girls who do not identify as lesbian hold the same weight with you as the anecdotal stories you shared? Because they are much more common than your examples. It seems to show it is more likely a choice than otherwise since there are no reliable indicators one can use.

Did you ever think that perhaps you and your friends teasing was more formative for this young man coming out as homosexual than genetics? Perhaps you put the initial thoughts in his head and reinforced them. He then internalized that he was different and began nurturing his difference and developing his fetish. I have yet to meet a homosexual that didn't have some experience that sent them down the path of investigating homosexuality (or any other fetish for that matter).

As I said earlier, you are equating your own natural desire/attraction for the opposite sex to homosexuality and I believe this to be a mistake. You are assuming that a homosexual must feel just like you when in reality your desire is biological while theirs is that of a carefully nurtured fetish.

Too often, people seem to ignore the prevalence of seduction among pre-and earlly teens and older, by even older homosexual males who actually may be adults.

Yeah, anything like this, is hands down evil and should not be ignored. But, how do you even address something like that?

-Finrock

Strong, loving family support that incorporates good education/instruction about human sexuality and its proper bounds and primary purpose. Otherwise, its a crap shoot . . . . and could still be.

[PressingForward]

In the present church, it’s accepted to be gay, but not to drink........this is sad.

In the present Church, its OK to be an alcoholic, but if you drink alcohol, you'll lose your recommend.

That, to me, seems to be a more fair comparison because your example was comparing something that you are VS. something that you do. Being gay (something you are) VS. drinking alcohol (something you do).

-Finrock

Quite false, but once you accept homosexuality as normal I can see you reaching that conclusion. Both are choices, yet having an occasional drink does not make one an alcoholic. Having homosexual sex does make you a homosexual. One is against mans law, the other is against Gods law.
....and just because a General Authority/Apostle says something does not make it true.
I learned that lesson growing up enamored by Paul H Dunn. Turned out he was a liar. So, scripture is where I turn for the true gospel of Jesus Christ, the Church is useful in the fact that the priesthood keys reside with the Prophet.

[Finrock]

In the present church, it’s accepted to be gay, but not to drink........this is sad.

In the present Church, its OK to be an alcoholic, but if you drink alcohol, you'll lose your recommend.

That, to me, seems to be a more fair comparison because your example was comparing something that you are VS. something that you do. Being gay (something you are) VS. drinking alcohol (something you do).

-Finrock

Quite false, but once you accept homosexuality as normal I can see you reaching that conclusion. Both are choices, yet having an occasional drink does not make one an alcoholic. Having homosexual sex does make you a homosexual.

What is quite false? What conclusion did I reach? Just asking to make sure we are on the same page.

-Finrock

[PressingForward]

Something you are vs. something you do, but you knew that.

[Finrock]

Something you are vs. something you do, but you knew that.

I don't know how you know what I know, but, I assure you nothing I say or type or speak is insincere. Let's just have a discussion so that we can understand one another, OK?

I understand that sometimes we just want to say what we want to say and we aren't really interested in discussing things, etc. I'm not judging or anything like that. To be clear, I want to have a sincere discussion, without contention. If that is what you want too, then please let me know and we can carry on. If not, and again, not saying you are bad/wrong/evil if you don't, because there are all sorts of legitimate reasons why we wouldn't want to on an internet forum, but, if that isn't what you want, then I understand and I won't waste your time any more. Also, if both parties aren't interested in having a sincere discussion, without contention, then more than likely there will be contention and I don't want to contribute to that, particularly when dealing with this highly emotive, and sensitive topic. I believe this topic and the resulting polarization surrounding it, deserves our very best behavior.

-Finrock

[eddiek]

I feel compelled to say that some of the posts here reveal a few people who are completely clueless on this topic, but many have valid points. I would not put too much stock in what Cosmo had to say in the article; he is young and has not had enough life experience to really understand what he is saying, evidenced by his opening statement.
One thing I can say without hesitation is that no one is born gay, though many will say they always knew they were gay. Some of those feelings go back to such a young age that it seems like "always." I have experienced same sex attraction for nearly sixty years and have done as much as I could to study it and observe how people are affected by it. The variations are so numerous as to make it difficult to categorize them all. I would say if there is one issue that is found in the vast majority of people with this challenge, it is a deep sense of shame. This is very important because, where guilt comes from having DONE something wrong, shame comes from believing you ARE something wrong. One reason people clamor for acceptance is that they, for the most part, have had huge struggles forming relationships; many experience a loneliness, brought about by the need for secrecy, by continuous introspection as they try to figure out why they are the way they are, the rejection as others suspect the truth. They need the healing that only comes through relationships, not superficial relationships, you know - the "let me know if I can do anything for you" type, as you walk our the chapel doors.
The single relationship that is most needed - required, in fact - is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
I challenge you all to go to YouTube and watch "Such Were Some of You." It's just over two hours but if it's too much time to spend, maybe the desire to understand is not so great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKSFPdyH8x4

[FattyArBeltBuckle]

We can just look at the fruits of our past actions, collectively, and see that the fruits have not been good. This is just what WE can do. We can be more compassionate, we can change old, harmful practices, we can try to be more understanding and still NOT go along with the "gay agenda"

That is the sodomite agenda!


“Open, frank talk makes gayness seem less furtive, alien, and sinful; more above board...Constant talk builds the impression that public opinion is at least divided on the subject, and that a sizeable bloc–the most modern, up-to-date citizens–accept or even practice homosexuality.”

“And when we say talk about homosexuality, we mean just that. In the early stages of the campaign, the public should not be shocked and repelled by premature exposure to homosexual behavior itself. Instead, the imagery of sex per se should be downplayed, and the issue of gay rights reduced, as far as possible, to an abstract social question.”

“portray gays as victims of circumstance and depression, not as aggressive challengers...gays must be portrayed as victims in need of protection so that straights will be inclined by reflex to adopt the role of protector.”

“The purpose of victim imagery is to make straights feel very uncomfortable; that is, to jam with shame the self-righteous pride that would ordinarily accompany and reward their antigay belligerence, and to lay groundwork for the process of conversion by helping straights identify with gays and sympathize with their underdog status.”

“In practical terms, this means that cocky mustachioed leather-men, drag queens, and bull dykes would not appear in gay commercials and other public presentations. Conventional young people, middle-age women, and older folks of all races would be featured, not to mention the parents and straight friends of gays...It cannot go without saying, incidentally, that groups on the farthest margins of acceptability, such as NAMBLA [North American Man-Boy Love Association], must play no part at all in such a campaign. Suspected child molesters will never look like victims.”

“To suggest in public that homosexuality might be chosen is to open the can of worms labeled ‘moral choices and sin’ and give the religious intransigents a stick to beat us with. Straights must be taught that it is as natural for some persons to be homosexual as it is for others to be heterosexual: wickedness and seduction have nothing to do with it.”

“This entails publicizing support by moderate churches and raising serious theological objections to conservative biblical teachings. It also means exposing the inconsistency and hatred underlying antigay doctrines
...antiquated backwaters, badly out of step with the times and with the latest findings of psychology.” (After the Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 90s ; Kirk and Madsen 1989)

[sandman45]

https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaint ... /?sort=new

Some of the comments:
"Dude you're the coolest."
"That’s one of the most faith strengthening things I’ve read in a long time. Thank you so much brother!"
"Gay people who still try their best to follow the Lord and keep his commandments are some of the most noble souls in my opinion. You are amazing, and I am glad to see that the negativity has not gotten you down and that you are doing what you are!"

What about the heterosexual men who like fooling around with multiple women I’m sure they still follow the Lord in all the other ways. That would strengthen my faith too if someone came out as “I sleep around” and still follow all the other commandments.....

[tdj]

In the present church, it’s accepted to be gay, but not to drink........this is sad.

In the present Church, its OK to be an alcoholic, but if you drink alcohol, you'll lose your recommend.

That, to me, seems to be a more fair comparison because your example was comparing something that you are VS. something that you do. Being gay (something you are) VS. drinking alcohol (something you do).

-Finrock

Being an alcoholic is also something you are. It's a disease that never goes away. But choosing to drink is something you do. So in that respect, it's no different then having sexually perverted desires.

By the way, it's not gay. Gay means happy. I don't appreciate perverts hijacking my language. It's sexual perversion and desires. Whether or not a person CHOOSES to engage in those perversions is similar to whether or not an alcoholic CHOOSES to drink.

[Michelle]

I know this isn't popular to say, but the problem with most sins, is that they are contagious. Homosexuality (and really all sex sins) spread faster than many other sins. One may be predisposed to alcoholism, but if you never take the first drink that temptation won't hold quite the same power over a person as a sexual sin.

With rare exception, most people experience sexual attraction and must choose.

Pity, endure, embrace is not just a trite saying, it is the natural social progression of most people. Most people do what they do because it is what they have always done or see others do. They are being acted upon. Some people, rare people, ask why they are doing what they do and exercise agency. They are acting.

We are, of course, all sinners. But some are trying to give away their sins and become saints, others are embracing their sins and becoming sinners in a more permanent sense.

Why do people fear homosexuality being embraced legally and socially? Because they see sin spread faster than faith. Because they see that there is no place in a Celestial progression for homosexual relationships.

Let me add one more point. We are too quiet about the reality of evil spirits. If we readily acknowledge the reality of evil spirits we can see more clearly where a temptation begins and what does and does not belong to us.

How many people believe that everything they think originates with them? If we carefully consider that many of the things we "think" come from the Holy Spirit, an evil Spirit or a social experience we can differentiate between out thoughts and those thoughts that are not ours.

Then we can choose.

Edit: typos

[John Tavner]

I feel compelled to say that some of the posts here reveal a few people who are completely clueless on this topic, but many have valid points. I would not put too much stock in what Cosmo had to say in the article; he is young and has not had enough life experience to really understand what he is saying, evidenced by his opening statement.
One thing I can say without hesitation is that no one is born gay, though many will say they always knew they were gay. Some of those feelings go back to such a young age that it seems like "always." I have experienced same sex attraction for nearly sixty years and have done as much as I could to study it and observe how people are affected by it. The variations are so numerous as to make it difficult to categorize them all. I would say if there is one issue that is found in the vast majority of people with this challenge, it is a deep sense of shame. This is very important because, where guilt comes from having DONE something wrong, shame comes from believing you ARE something wrong. One reason people clamor for acceptance is that they, for the most part, have had huge struggles forming relationships; many experience a loneliness, brought about by the need for secrecy, by continuous introspection as they try to figure out why they are the way they are, the rejection as others suspect the truth. They need the healing that only comes through relationships, not superficial relationships, you know - the "let me know if I can do anything for you" type, as you walk our the chapel doors.
The single relationship that is most needed - required, in fact - is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
I challenge you all to go to YouTube and watch "Such Were Some of You." It's just over two hours but if it's too much time to spend, maybe the desire to understand is not so great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKSFPdyH8x4

Brings to mind one of the reasons why the Lord wants us to visit widows and orphans... Though I believe that scripture, like most scriptures, has both a temporal and spiritual meaning. There truly is a famine in the land, a famine of hearing the Word of the Lord. The Doctrine of Christ truly is the gate, and the straight and narrow path. When taught correctly, it will change lives. I appreciate that video. We ALL must learn to truly submit to God in order to overcome, but that insight too, is found in the Doctrine of Christ.

[John Tavner]

I know this isn't popular to say, but the problem with most sins, is that they are contagious. Homosexuality (and really all sex sins) spread faster than many other sins. One may be predisposed to alcoholism, but if you never take the first drink that temptation won't hold quite the same power over a person as a sexual sin.

With rare exception, most people experience sexual attraction and must choose.

Pity, endure, embrace is not just a trite saying, it is the natural social progression of most people. Most people do what they do because it is what they have always done or see others do. They are being acted upon. Some people, rare people, ask why they are doing what they do and exercise agency. They are acting.

We are, of course, all sinners. But some are trying to give away their sins and become saints, others are embracing their sins and becoming sinners in a more permanent sense.

Why do people fear homosexuality being embraced legally and socially? Because they see sin spread faster than faith. Because they see that there is no place in a Celestial progression for homosexual relationships.

Let me add one more point. We are too quiet about the reality of evil spirits. If we readily acknowledge the reality of evil spirits we can see more clearly where a temptation begins and what does and does not belong to us.

How many people believe that everything they think originates with them? If we carefully consider that many of the things we "think" come from the Holy Spirit, an evil Spirit or a social experience we can differentiate between out thoughts and those thoughts that are not ours.

Then we can choose.

Edit: typos

Yes, evil spirits are sooo much more pernicious than any of us could imagine!

[Finrock]

We can just look at the fruits of our past actions, collectively, and see that the fruits have not been good. This is just what WE can do. We can be more compassionate, we can change old, harmful practices, we can try to be more understanding and still NOT go along with the "gay agenda"

That is the sodomite agenda!


“Open, frank talk makes gayness seem less furtive, alien, and sinful; more above board...Constant talk builds the impression that public opinion is at least divided on the subject, and that a sizeable bloc–the most modern, up-to-date citizens–accept or even practice homosexuality.”

“And when we say talk about homosexuality, we mean just that. In the early stages of the campaign, the public should not be shocked and repelled by premature exposure to homosexual behavior itself. Instead, the imagery of sex per se should be downplayed, and the issue of gay rights reduced, as far as possible, to an abstract social question.”

“portray gays as victims of circumstance and depression, not as aggressive challengers...gays must be portrayed as victims in need of protection so that straights will be inclined by reflex to adopt the role of protector.”

“The purpose of victim imagery is to make straights feel very uncomfortable; that is, to jam with shame the self-righteous pride that would ordinarily accompany and reward their antigay belligerence, and to lay groundwork for the process of conversion by helping straights identify with gays and sympathize with their underdog status.”

“In practical terms, this means that cocky mustachioed leather-men, drag queens, and bull dykes would not appear in gay commercials and other public presentations. Conventional young people, middle-age women, and older folks of all races would be featured, not to mention the parents and straight friends of gays...It cannot go without saying, incidentally, that groups on the farthest margins of acceptability, such as NAMBLA [North American Man-Boy Love Association], must play no part at all in such a campaign. Suspected child molesters will never look like victims.”

“To suggest in public that homosexuality might be chosen is to open the can of worms labeled ‘moral choices and sin’ and give the religious intransigents a stick to beat us with. Straights must be taught that it is as natural for some persons to be homosexual as it is for others to be heterosexual: wickedness and seduction have nothing to do with it.”

“This entails publicizing support by moderate churches and raising serious theological objections to conservative biblical teachings. It also means exposing the inconsistency and hatred underlying antigay doctrines
...antiquated backwaters, badly out of step with the times and with the latest findings of psychology.” (After the Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 90s ; Kirk and Madsen 1989)

Enmity will keep anyone out of Heaven. Satan's agenda is to cause division and enmity.

Some people like enmity, because they feel they, their family, their group, or their club is superior. We can't escape it. No logical argument will change it: If we feel enmity towards another or a group, it is because we believe we are superior/better than/more righteous.

We can choose to feel enmity or not. The gay agenda is to build enmity. My agenda is to reduce enmity.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

In the present church, it’s accepted to be gay, but not to drink........this is sad.

In the present Church, its OK to be an alcoholic, but if you drink alcohol, you'll lose your recommend.

That, to me, seems to be a more fair comparison because your example was comparing something that you are VS. something that you do. Being gay (something you are) VS. drinking alcohol (something you do).

-Finrock

Being an alcoholic is also something you are. It's a disease that never goes away. But choosing to drink is something you do. So in that respect, it's no different then having sexually perverted desires.

Precisely. It is my impression that some people want to deny that being gay is something you are.

What you describe is the distinction the Church is trying to make. You can be gay, just don't indulge in gay sexual behavior, just like in the Church you can be an alcoholic, just don't indulge in alcohol.

By the way, it's not gay. Gay means happy. I don't appreciate perverts hijacking my language. It's sexual perversion and desires. Whether or not a person CHOOSES to engage in those perversions is similar to whether or not an alcoholic CHOOSES to drink.

Perverts didn't hijack your language. First, English doesn't belong to you. Society, as a whole, has decided that gay also means someone who has same sex attraction. Gay has equaled homosexual for over 50 years, at least. Ive never really used the word gay to say im happy. Ive heard people also use gay in a deragatory way. Anyways, using gay to mean homosexual is well established. Id find another battle to fight!

As far as choosing to engage or not, I agree. We are on the same page there and you are advocating my position.

-Finrock

[FattyArBeltBuckle]

Enmity will keep anyone out of Heaven. Satan's agenda is to cause division and enmity.

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed; and he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Moses 4:21

The Lord does not like contention and hatred. But enmity? We do not always have to be agreeable. It is OK to oppose and disagree. Dialog with sodomites is usually tremendously one-sided. Like the "LoveLoud" festival. It is billed at building dialog and "trust". However, it was one giant "pride festival' with music. There was no desire for dialog or understanding of Gods Law.

[Fiannan]

What do people think of this?

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... dwdol0Sngc

[FattyArBeltBuckle]

What do people think of this?

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... dwdol0Sngc

Like I've said. Expansive energy.

[RocknRoll]

My experiences w/ the homosexual community in the mid 90s and a look at homosexuality throughout history makes it clear to me that homosexuality is a fetish and a lifestyle choice, not an equivalent replacement for heterosexual feelings.

I don’t know anything about your “experiences in the mid 90’s”, but science does not agree.

One thing I can say without hesitation is that no one is born gay, though many will say they always knew they were gay

You can say that without hesitation all you like, but it doesn’t make it true.

scientists hypothesize that a combination of genetic, hormonal, and social factors determine sexual orientation. Biological theories for explaining the causes of sexual orientation are favored by experts and involve a complex interplay of genetic factors, the early uterine environment and brain structure

Having homosexual sex does make you a homosexual.

This is patently false. I went to a hockey game once, didn’t make me a hockey fan.

Elder M. Russell Ballard stated: “Let us be clear: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that ‘the experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is

[RocknRoll]

At what point does the virtue of tolerance become the wickedness of permissiveness?

We were never supposed to tolerate wickedness in the first place and Church leadership has erred in doing so. "Tolerance" in the modern cultural-marxist sense of the word, is a sham, it's meant to disarm the leftwing's political opposition and it's a "do as I say not as I do" leftist doctrine. If you are a conservative white Christian you are not tolerated by those who preach tolerance. Look at how Mike Pence is treated by the left.

When has the church leadership tolerated wickedness?

[EmmaLee]

At what point does the virtue of tolerance become the wickedness of permissiveness?

We were never supposed to tolerate wickedness in the first place and Church leadership has erred in doing so. "Tolerance" in the modern cultural-marxist sense of the word, is a sham, it's meant to disarm the leftwing's political opposition and it's a "do as I say not as I do" leftist doctrine. If you are a conservative white Christian you are not tolerated by those who preach tolerance. Look at how Mike Pence is treated by the left.

When has the church leadership tolerated wickedness?

That's not me talking in the quotes above. I was quoting others. As for your question though, it all depends on your definition of "wickedness", doesn't it.

[RocknRoll]

We were never supposed to tolerate wickedness in the first place and Church leadership has erred in doing so. "Tolerance" in the modern cultural-marxist sense of the word, is a sham, it's meant to disarm the leftwing's political opposition and it's a "do as I say not as I do" leftist doctrine. If you are a conservative white Christian you are not tolerated by those who preach tolerance. Look at how Mike Pence is treated by the left.

When has the church leadership tolerated wickedness?

That's not me talking in the quotes above. I was quoting others. As for your question though, it all depends on your definition of "wickedness", doesn't it.

Sorry about that. Sometimes it’s hard to tell whose quotes are who’s when they’re piled on top of each other.

It does depend on your definition of wickedness. There are two families in my previous ward that would define drinking Mountain Dew and watching football on Sunday as wickedness.

So I guess my question is to Layer8. When has the church leadership tolerated wickedness? (considering HIS definition of wickedness, of course).

[Finrock]

Enmity will keep anyone out of Heaven. Satan's agenda is to cause division and enmity.

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed; and he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Moses 4:21

The Lord does not like contention and hatred. But enmity? We do not always have to be agreeable. It is OK to oppose and disagree. Dialog with sodomites is usually tremendously one-sided. Like the "LoveLoud" festival. It is billed at building dialog and "trust". However, it was one giant "pride festival' with music. There was no desire for dialog or understanding of Gods Law.

Agreeable? Not sure what you mean by that, but, I do agree that we don't always have to agree. There are many things I don't agree with. It is OK to oppose to something and to disagree. I'm not talking extremes here. Extremes are just that, extremes, and extremes often require a unique approach, but, I'm talking just normal, day to day, how we interact, perceive, and, yes, judge others.

The central feature of pride is enmity—enmity toward God and enmity toward our fellowmen. Enmity means “hatred toward, hostility to, or a state of opposition.” It is the power by which Satan wishes to reign over us.

So, that gives you an idea of what I'm talking about here when it comes to "enmity".

Lets take our positions here on this forum as an example. Our positions right now seem to be somewhat in opposition. But, because we don't agree, is it necessary for you and I to be in a state of opposition towards one another, as people? Do we have to have hostility or hatred towards one another? Do we have to perceive each other as the enemy, as the bad guy, etc.? Do we have to demonize one another because we disagree? (No.)

So, we can choose to engage in a bitter, tit-for-tat, eye-for-an-eye, hostile way, or, we can choose to engage each other in a more "Christ-like" way. First, it is NEVER necessary to agree with someone in order to understand them. If nothing else, we can engage in an effort to understand. We can choose to treat each other fairly. We can choose to try to have empathy. We can choose to have basic human respect towards one another. All of these things are possible, without agreeing on the issues, and while we are opposed to one another's ideas or philosophies.

Many people don't want to do this. They want to demonize, on both sides, the other side. Many people don't want there to be any understanding, no agreement, no common ground, nothing for us to build on, just enmity, just hostility, just opposition. And not just opposition to ideas, but, opposition to a person, to a group. This is not light, life, and truth. It isn't Good or of Christ.

I'm saying, we can do better than that. It doesn't matter what the militant gay groups do, or what any other person or group does. As I see it, as a disciple of Jesus Christ, I ought to conduct myself in a way that honors the name I have taken upon me, regardless of what others are saying or doing.

As far as I'm concerned, my brothers and sisters in this world, we all share a common struggle. We are all in the same boat (mortality) and I feel and I strongly believe that we need to all give each other some compassion. Life is hard and, outside of extremes, it is my belief that most all people on this earth are just doing the best that they can to find peace, joy, love, and goodness in life.

I'm a recovering addict and I know in the past there were many people, members and leaders, who made all sorts of assumptions about me, my motivations, my character, etc. while I was engaging in my addictions. Some leaders just wanted to blast me and put themselves above me, as if they didn't have their own sins, their own weaknesses, etc. Then there were others who showed compassion, kindness, respect, honor, not for my sinful and harmful behavior, but, towards me, despite my actions. They saw past my addictions, past my weaknesses, and they saw a son of God, and they treated me that way. It was this type of conduct and this type of love from others that was helpful, that was healing, that helped me to feel and know what God's love is. None of this happened immediately, quickly, or suddenly. It took a long time for me to get to the point where I was ready to act on my own behalf to find Christ, healing, etc. That means that there were probably many who looked at me and said, "This guy takes pride in his sins. He doesn't want to change. He isn't worth my time, my effort, my love. I'm gonna blast and tear him down..."

So, we can and we ought to avoid calling people perverts, abominations, gross, etc. All of these words dehumanize and foster resentment and more enmity. It isn't good. We don't have to do that. We can address the issue, oppose the sin, be against an idea, etc. with understanding and empathy. Many may not care and many are going to misjudge you and, like I said, there is enmity on both sides, but, like I said before, we can only control ourselves and we must maintain the moral high ground, regardless of anything else.

-Finrock

[Lizzy60]

Finrock, I agree with you that there is no place for any member of the church to call people perverts, abominations, etc. However, when you say that we can still oppose the sin, if you are referring to homosexuality, this is no longer tolerated by Mormons Building Bridges, Mama Dragons, and all the other LDS pro-LGBTQ groups. They now preach and teach that homosexual acts are every bit as desirable and God-sanctioned in legal marriages as heterosexual activity. They are saying that they fully expect homosexuals to continue to be homosexual in the Celestial Kingdom. They say the sin is the bigotry, the heartlessness, the total misunderstanding of the members of the Church who refuse to see them the way God sees them, as perfectly made. They claim the LDS LGBT are the noble ones sent here at this time to change the homophobia of the LDS church into total acceptance of everything LGBTQ. They do not tolerate any language that implies they are "struggling" or that this trial will be removed from them after the resurrection. They even go so far as to say that we are never to say that -- because it causes hopelessness and suicide. There's more, but you get the idea.

[tdj]

In the present church, it’s accepted to be gay, but not to drink........this is sad.

In the present Church, its OK to be an alcoholic, but if you drink alcohol, you'll lose your recommend.

That, to me, seems to be a more fair comparison because your example was comparing something that you are VS. something that you do. Being gay (something you are) VS. drinking alcohol (something you do).

-Finrock

Being an alcoholic is also something you are. It's a disease that never goes away. But choosing to drink is something you do. So in that respect, it's no different then having sexually perverted desires.

Precisely. It is my impression that some people want to deny that being gay is something you are.

What you describe is the distinction the Church is trying to make. You can be gay, just don't indulge in gay sexual behavior, just like in the Church you can be an alcoholic, just don't indulge in alcohol.

By the way, it's not gay. Gay means happy. I don't appreciate perverts hijacking my language. It's sexual perversion and desires. Whether or not a person CHOOSES to engage in those perversions is similar to whether or not an alcoholic CHOOSES to drink.

Perverts didn't hijack your language. First, English doesn't belong to you. Society, as a whole, has decided that gay also means someone who has same sex attraction. Gay has equaled homosexual for over 50 years, at least. Ive never really used the word gay to say im happy. Ive heard people also use gay in a deragatory way. Anyways, using gay to mean homosexual is well established. Id find another battle to fight!

As far as choosing to engage or not, I agree. We are on the same page there and you are advocating my position.

-Finrock

But they ARE hijacking the language. Up until just a few decades ago gay meant happy. Now it's been twisted to mean homosexual. Besides, just stop and think for a moment what those people have to do in order to become "happy"? Now go enjoy your dinner