BYU mascot Cosmo comes out as gay.

[Finrock]

While I agree with much of what you say here, I'm mainly referring to how the Church coddles those with same-sex attraction. How they go out of their way to make that particular brand of 'sin' feel welcome and loved, but they ignore so many other people with different tendencies.

That's because these individuals, in the past, have been treated so poorly. They have not been loved, welcomed, etc. Instead, they have been actively ostracized, ridiculed, and made to feel less than human, in many, many, many cases. The Church's responses and policies in the past which attempted to address homosexual issues has caused much harm and has not resulted, in most cases, of people being healed, being drawn to Christ, etc.

You (in general) have no excuse not to show kindness, goodness, and love towards people who are attracted to the same sex. People will change and they will response to the pure love of Christ. If anything is going to help, it will be the pure love of Christ that you emanate and which comes from your souls.

Being attracted to the same sex is not the same as wanting to murder people, harm people, rape children, etc. No matter how many times these associations are made, they will forever remain false associations.

Feeling enmity towards people who have same-sex attractions will prevent any person, no matter who they are, from living in the Celestial Kingdom.

-Finrock

Sin is sin. There isn't a "false association." Is not all sin "harm[ing] people?"

Raping a child is not the same as having consensual sex with an adult of the same gender. Murdering a person is not the same as having consensual sex with an adult of the same gender. Until you can admit this, no point in addressing anything else in your post.

-Finrock

[John Tavner]

While I agree with much of what you say here, I'm mainly referring to how the Church coddles those with same-sex attraction. How they go out of their way to make that particular brand of 'sin' feel welcome and loved, but they ignore so many other people with different tendencies.

That's because these individuals, in the past, have been treated so poorly. They have not been loved, welcomed, etc. Instead, they have been actively ostracized, ridiculed, and made to feel less than human, in many, many, many cases. The Church's responses and policies in the past which attempted to address homosexual issues has caused much harm and has not resulted, in most cases, of people being healed, being drawn to Christ, etc.

You (in general) have no excuse not to show kindness, goodness, and love towards people who are attracted to the same sex. People will change and they will response to the pure love of Christ. If anything is going to help, it will be the pure love of Christ that you emanate and which comes from your souls.

Being attracted to the same sex is not the same as wanting to murder people, harm people, rape children, etc. No matter how many times these associations are made, they will forever remain false associations.

Feeling enmity towards people who have same-sex attractions will prevent any person, no matter who they are, from living in the Celestial Kingdom.

-Finrock

Sin is sin. There isn't a "false association." Is not all sin "harm[ing] people?"

Raping a child is not the same as having consensual sex with an adult of the same gender. Murdering a person is not the same as having consensual sex with an adult of the same gender. Until you can admit this, no point in addressing anything else in your post.

-Finrock

If you can not see that ALL sin keeps people from the presence of God, then you are correct there is no reason for us to continue a conversation. Also, what I have written was by the Spirit believe it or not, you have been warned.

[EmmaLee]

While I agree with much of what you say here, I'm mainly referring to how the Church coddles those with same-sex attraction. How they go out of their way to make that particular brand of 'sin' feel welcome and loved, but they ignore so many other people with different tendencies.

That's because these individuals, in the past, have been treated so poorly. They have not been loved, welcomed, etc. Instead, they have been actively ostracized, ridiculed, and made to feel less than human, in many, many, many cases. The Church's responses and policies in the past which attempted to address homosexual issues has caused much harm and has not resulted, in most cases, of people being healed, being drawn to Christ, etc.

You (in general) have no excuse not to show kindness, goodness, and love towards people who are attracted to the same sex. People will change and they will response to the pure love of Christ. If anything is going to help, it will be the pure love of Christ that you emanate and which comes from your souls.

Being attracted to the same sex is not the same as wanting to murder people, harm people, rape children, etc. No matter how many times these associations are made, they will forever remain false associations.

-Finrock

Thanks for your opinion. Your comment that I bolded above applies to ALL of us, NOT just those with same-sex attraction - that is my point. ALL of us should be shown kindness, goodness, and love. If anything is going to help ANY of us to change from sinful creatures, it will be the pure love of Christ that others emanate and which comes from their souls. These things apply to ALL of us, THAT is my entire point. There are no (or should be no) special, coddled categories.

[Finrock]

That's because these individuals, in the past, have been treated so poorly. They have not been loved, welcomed, etc. Instead, they have been actively ostracized, ridiculed, and made to feel less than human, in many, many, many cases. The Church's responses and policies in the past which attempted to address homosexual issues has caused much harm and has not resulted, in most cases, of people being healed, being drawn to Christ, etc.

You (in general) have no excuse not to show kindness, goodness, and love towards people who are attracted to the same sex. People will change and they will response to the pure love of Christ. If anything is going to help, it will be the pure love of Christ that you emanate and which comes from your souls.

Being attracted to the same sex is not the same as wanting to murder people, harm people, rape children, etc. No matter how many times these associations are made, they will forever remain false associations.

Feeling enmity towards people who have same-sex attractions will prevent any person, no matter who they are, from living in the Celestial Kingdom.

-Finrock

Sin is sin. There isn't a "false association." Is not all sin "harm[ing] people?"

Raping a child is not the same as having consensual sex with an adult of the same gender. Murdering a person is not the same as having consensual sex with an adult of the same gender. Until you can admit this, no point in addressing anything else in your post.

-Finrock

If you can not see that ALL sin keeps people from the presence of God

I can see that. That was a part of my post to Emmalee.

Adults having consensual sex is not the same as murdering people or raping children. You know this is true. Until you can admit this, there is no point in continuing the conversation.

Also, what I have written was by the Spirit believe it or not, you have been warned.

And, now you just transitioned to coercion and manipulation, proving that the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with it.

-Finrock

[EmmaLee]

While I agree with much of what you say here, I'm mainly referring to how the Church coddles those with same-sex attraction. How they go out of their way to make that particular brand of 'sin' feel welcome and loved, but they ignore so many other people with different tendencies.

That's because these individuals, in the past, have been treated so poorly. They have not been loved, welcomed, etc. Instead, they have been actively ostracized, ridiculed, and made to feel less than human, in many, many, many cases. The Church's responses and policies in the past which attempted to address homosexual issues has caused much harm and has not resulted, in most cases, of people being healed, being drawn to Christ, etc.

You (in general) have no excuse not to show kindness, goodness, and love towards people who are attracted to the same sex. People will change and they will response to the pure love of Christ. If anything is going to help, it will be the pure love of Christ that you emanate and which comes from your souls.

Being attracted to the same sex is not the same as wanting to murder people, harm people, rape children, etc. No matter how many times these associations are made, they will forever remain false associations.

Feeling enmity towards people who have same-sex attractions will prevent any person, no matter who they are, from living in the Celestial Kingdom.

-Finrock

Sin is sin. There isn't a "false association." Is not all sin "harm[ing] people?" Especially when they try to convince others to be like them? Of course we all should love them, but I don't see much of a difference in how members treated those who have same-sex attraction and those that smoke or drink or commit fornication or adultery or lusteth in their heart. Now, we can talk about what should be and this is where EmmaLee is pointing. We should express the Father's love in teaching all they can repent and change their ways for He denies none that come unto Him. Repentance is turning ones heart towards God and changing their heart - the refrain go and sin no more comes to mind. All are welcome, but if we do not encourage change then we are not actually loving them at all. We will be damning them to a lower kingdom regardless AND we will carry those sins upon us for not having shared the true doctrine of CHrist- which is Faith in the Father and the SOn, Repentance, Baptism (water and fire) - and enduring to the end - which is complete submission to the Father and His will, not our own desires. However, we too often confuse tolerance with kindness. When someone constantly brings up how they fornicate and labels themself as such, it doens't help them overcome - they are submitting to that label, the same as someone who labels themself as "gay." The gospel is about changing and becoming not about "doing." The entire sermon on the mount is about becoming rather than just doing. I don't care for the attitude of a fornicator who brags about their sex life the same way I don't care for the attitude of a person with same-sex attraction will brag about their life. There is a fine line. We should love all man, but first we must love God, if we get those confused then we won't love man like God loves man and we will (as we are now) be led down a path of destruction. We are becoming lovers of our own selves as Timothy stated - and that is wrong.

Thanks, John; you said it better than me.

[Finrock]

While I agree with much of what you say here, I'm mainly referring to how the Church coddles those with same-sex attraction. How they go out of their way to make that particular brand of 'sin' feel welcome and loved, but they ignore so many other people with different tendencies.

That's because these individuals, in the past, have been treated so poorly. They have not been loved, welcomed, etc. Instead, they have been actively ostracized, ridiculed, and made to feel less than human, in many, many, many cases. The Church's responses and policies in the past which attempted to address homosexual issues has caused much harm and has not resulted, in most cases, of people being healed, being drawn to Christ, etc.

You (in general) have no excuse not to show kindness, goodness, and love towards people who are attracted to the same sex. People will change and they will response to the pure love of Christ. If anything is going to help, it will be the pure love of Christ that you emanate and which comes from your souls.

Being attracted to the same sex is not the same as wanting to murder people, harm people, rape children, etc. No matter how many times these associations are made, they will forever remain false associations.

-Finrock

Thanks for your opinion. Your comment that I bolded above applies to ALL of us, NOT just those with same-sex attraction - that is my point. ALL of us should be shown kindness, goodness, and love.

I know. My statement didn't deny that. The topic is same-sex attraction, but, yeah, it applies to all.

-Finrock

[John Tavner]

Sin is sin. There isn't a "false association." Is not all sin "harm[ing] people?"

Raping a child is not the same as having consensual sex with an adult of the same gender. Murdering a person is not the same as having consensual sex with an adult of the same gender. Until you can admit this, no point in addressing anything else in your post.

-Finrock

If you can not see that ALL sin keeps people from the presence of God

I can see that. That was a part of my post to Emmalee.

Adults having consensual sex is not the same as murdering people or raping children. You know this is true. Until you can admit this, there is no point in continuing the conversation.

Also, what I have written was by the Spirit believe it or not, you have been warned.

And, now you just transitioned to coercion and manipulation, proving that the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with it.

-Finrock

I'm sorry sir, you clearly do not understand the scriptures or the words of the Lord in this instance. I sincerely hope you have a good day and may God bless you and I pray that you hear and then do as the Savior teaches us. Also, I will open you mind - coercion is forcing others to believe, warning is not coercion. Manipulation is to use or convince someone for their own insidious or deceitful means. Neither of those have I done - nor the Spirit which worked in me warning is not manipulation. I get absolutely nothing from telling you this.

[Finrock]

While I agree with much of what you say here, I'm mainly referring to how the Church coddles those with same-sex attraction. How they go out of their way to make that particular brand of 'sin' feel welcome and loved, but they ignore so many other people with different tendencies.

That's because these individuals, in the past, have been treated so poorly. They have not been loved, welcomed, etc. Instead, they have been actively ostracized, ridiculed, and made to feel less than human, in many, many, many cases. The Church's responses and policies in the past which attempted to address homosexual issues has caused much harm and has not resulted, in most cases, of people being healed, being drawn to Christ, etc.

You (in general) have no excuse not to show kindness, goodness, and love towards people who are attracted to the same sex. People will change and they will response to the pure love of Christ. If anything is going to help, it will be the pure love of Christ that you emanate and which comes from your souls.

Being attracted to the same sex is not the same as wanting to murder people, harm people, rape children, etc. No matter how many times these associations are made, they will forever remain false associations.

-Finrock

Thanks for your opinion. Your comment that I bolded above applies to ALL of us, NOT just those with same-sex attraction - that is my point. ALL of us should be shown kindness, goodness, and love. If anything is going to help ANY of us to change from sinful creatures, it will be the pure love of Christ that others emanate and which comes from their souls. These things apply to ALL of us, THAT is my entire point. There are no (or should be no) special, coddled categories.

So, if you want to know why the Church is responding to the homosexual issue the way that it is today, is because in the past, those who have had homosexual attractions have been treated special, different. They have been treated worse. They have been treated poorly. They have been treated worse than other sinners in the Church.

We ought to show kindness, goodness, and love towards these individuals. Not ostracize them, ridicule them, or treat them as less than human, which has been the case in the past. Now its time to treat them equal, with the rest of us sinners.

If you feel enmity towards any person, then you will not be able to live in the Celestial Kingdom (speaking in general).

-Finrock

[John Tavner]

How often were people warned in the scriptures to repent? How often did the Lord tell people they needed to change or they wouldn't inherit the Kingdom of God? If you don't believe the HOly Spirit can work in people to warn them and teach them, then what do you believe. Like I said, it was a warning. Learn to hear the voice yourself. The sad part is, that we are so very close to saying the same thing, but you are judging me as 1) being and liar and 2) by you trying to using the world. You think that God works all the time by Logical reasoning and argumentation? If you actually read what has been said, I did use reasoning. The warning was making it clear that you have been warned - it is up to you to decide yet you ignore everything else. Fools mock. Again I will pray for you and I truly ohp you understand that all sin is an abomination before God, like you said any enmity toward other groups will keep us from teh Kingdom of God. You believing that murderers are worse than those who have same-sex attraction or any other manner of sin implying thye can't repent or we shouldn't treat them with kindness... *sigh*. I really do hope you see. I will end with this, I do love you and I pray that we embrace in Zion one day. "Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil." I'm not a prophet, but I can still speak by the power of the HOly Ghost. I suppose in your eyes I am a sinner and of the devil.
God Bless you FInrock

[Finrock]

I can see that. That was a part of my post to Emmalee.

Adults having consensual sex is not the same as murdering people or raping children. You know this is true. Until you can admit this, there is no point in continuing the conversation.



And, now you just transitioned to coercion and manipulation, proving that the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with it.

-Finrock

I'm sorry sir, you clearly do not understand the scriptures or the words of the Lord in this instance.

OK, thus saith John Tavner.

I sincerely hope you have a good day and may God bless you and I pray that you hear and then do as the Savior teaches us. Also, I will open you mind - coercion is forcing others to believe, warning is not coercion. Manipulation is to use or convince someone for their own insidious or deceitful means. Neither of those have I done - nor the Spirit which worked in me warning is not manipulation. I get absolutely nothing from telling you this.

Coercion: "Believe what I'm saying, or else. You have been warned."

Manipulate: Instead of using reasoning and argumentation, I am pretending that I have God's authority, which trumps all, therefore my words can't be challenged and if you reject my words, you are rejecting God.

Yep, you have nothing to do with the Holy Spirit at this point. Sorry.

-Finrock

I'm really sad that you don't understand.

I do understand. Don't be sad. Be happy.

I'm happy.

Until you can admit that raping children is not the same as consensual, same-gender sex, there is no point in addressing any of your other points.

-Finrock

[nightlight]

While I agree with much of what you say here, I'm mainly referring to how the Church coddles those with same-sex attraction. How they go out of their way to make that particular brand of 'sin' feel welcome and loved, but they ignore so many other people with different tendencies.

That's because these individuals, in the past, have been treated so poorly. They have not been loved, welcomed, etc. Instead, they have been actively ostracized, ridiculed, and made to feel less than human, in many, many, many cases. The Church's responses and policies in the past which attempted to address homosexual issues has caused much harm and has not resulted, in most cases, of people being healed, being drawn to Christ, etc.

You (in general) have no excuse not to show kindness, goodness, and love towards people who are attracted to the same sex. People will change and they will response to the pure love of Christ. If anything is going to help, it will be the pure love of Christ that you emanate and which comes from your souls.

Being attracted to the same sex is not the same as wanting to murder people, harm people, rape children, etc. No matter how many times these associations are made, they will forever remain false associations.

Feeling enmity towards people who have same-sex attractions will prevent any person, no matter who they are, from living in the Celestial Kingdom.

-Finrock

Sin is sin. There isn't a "false association." Is not all sin "harm[ing] people?" Especially when they try to convince others to be like them? Of course we all should love them, but I don't see much of a difference in how members treated those who have same-sex attraction and those that smoke or drink or commit fornication or adultery or lusteth in their heart. Now, we can talk about what should be and this is where EmmaLee is pointing. We should express the Father's love in teaching all they can repent and change their ways for He denies none that come unto Him. Repentance is turning ones heart towards God and changing their heart - the refrain go and sin no more comes to mind. All are welcome, but if we do not encourage change then we are not actually loving them at all. We will be damning them to a lower kingdom regardless AND we will carry those sins upon us for not having shared the true doctrine of CHrist- which is Faith in the Father and the SOn, Repentance, Baptism (water and fire) - and enduring to the end - which is complete submission to the Father and His will, not our own desires. However, we too often confuse tolerance with kindness. When someone constantly brings up how they fornicate and labels themself as such, it doens't help them overcome - they are submitting to that label, the same as someone who labels themself as "gay." The gospel is about changing and becoming not about "doing." The entire sermon on the mount is about becoming rather than just doing. I don't care for the attitude of a fornicator who brags about their sex life the same way I don't care for the attitude of a person with same-sex attraction will brag about their life. There is a fine line. We should love all man, but first we must love God, if we get those confused then we won't love man like God loves man and we will (as we are now) be led down a path of destruction. We are becoming lovers of our own selves as Timothy stated - and that is wrong.

It crazy how Mormons lump smoking/drinking in the same category as sodomy, adultery/lust, fornication.....lol...lol...lol...lol....lol....lol....lol....lol....lol.....lol....lol....lol....lol...lol....lol...lol...lol

[PressingForward]

In the present church, it’s accepted to be gay, but not to drink........this is sad.

[EmmaLee]

In the present church, it’s accepted to be gay, but not to drink........this is sad.

Indeed. From the time I was a young teen to present day, I've seen members get berated, bullied, judged, and condemned by the Church for drinking - and I'm referring to coffee, never mind such things as beer or harder liquor. A young adult member of our ward brought a Starbucks drink to meetings a few Sunday's ago, and you'd have thought he was sitting there French kissing another man or something (oh wait, that would have been accepted and applauded by the Church/members, and they would have gotten an outpouring of love). According to LDS scripture, it's fine to drink wine and beer of our own make - yet any who do are condemned to hell and are cast out - no recommends or callings for them. But a recommend-holding, stake executive secretary who publicly says he's just waiting for the right man to come along before he starts having gay sex? That's a-okay.

[John Tavner]

While I agree with much of what you say here, I'm mainly referring to how the Church coddles those with same-sex attraction. How they go out of their way to make that particular brand of 'sin' feel welcome and loved, but they ignore so many other people with different tendencies.

That's because these individuals, in the past, have been treated so poorly. They have not been loved, welcomed, etc. Instead, they have been actively ostracized, ridiculed, and made to feel less than human, in many, many, many cases. The Church's responses and policies in the past which attempted to address homosexual issues has caused much harm and has not resulted, in most cases, of people being healed, being drawn to Christ, etc.

You (in general) have no excuse not to show kindness, goodness, and love towards people who are attracted to the same sex. People will change and they will response to the pure love of Christ. If anything is going to help, it will be the pure love of Christ that you emanate and which comes from your souls.

Being attracted to the same sex is not the same as wanting to murder people, harm people, rape children, etc. No matter how many times these associations are made, they will forever remain false associations.

Feeling enmity towards people who have same-sex attractions will prevent any person, no matter who they are, from living in the Celestial Kingdom.

-Finrock

Sin is sin. There isn't a "false association." Is not all sin "harm[ing] people?" Especially when they try to convince others to be like them? Of course we all should love them, but I don't see much of a difference in how members treated those who have same-sex attraction and those that smoke or drink or commit fornication or adultery or lusteth in their heart. Now, we can talk about what should be and this is where EmmaLee is pointing. We should express the Father's love in teaching all they can repent and change their ways for He denies none that come unto Him. Repentance is turning ones heart towards God and changing their heart - the refrain go and sin no more comes to mind. All are welcome, but if we do not encourage change then we are not actually loving them at all. We will be damning them to a lower kingdom regardless AND we will carry those sins upon us for not having shared the true doctrine of CHrist- which is Faith in the Father and the SOn, Repentance, Baptism (water and fire) - and enduring to the end - which is complete submission to the Father and His will, not our own desires. However, we too often confuse tolerance with kindness. When someone constantly brings up how they fornicate and labels themself as such, it doens't help them overcome - they are submitting to that label, the same as someone who labels themself as "gay." The gospel is about changing and becoming not about "doing." The entire sermon on the mount is about becoming rather than just doing. I don't care for the attitude of a fornicator who brags about their sex life the same way I don't care for the attitude of a person with same-sex attraction will brag about their life. There is a fine line. We should love all man, but first we must love God, if we get those confused then we won't love man like God loves man and we will (as we are now) be led down a path of destruction. We are becoming lovers of our own selves as Timothy stated - and that is wrong.

It crazy how Mormons lump smoking/drinking in the same category as sodomy, adultery/lust, fornication.....lol...lol...lol...lol....lol....lol....lol....lol....lol.....lol....lol....lol....lol...lol....lol...lol...lol

I agree, that's why I mentioned it. People who smoke or drink (alcohol, coffee or tea) are often considered pariahs.

[Finrock]

In the present church, it’s accepted to be gay, but not to drink........this is sad.

Indeed. From the time I was a young teen to present day, I've seen members get berated, bullied, judged, and condemned by the Church for drinking - and I'm referring to coffee...

And I agree with you that this is just as much nonsense as anything else nonsensical we've talked about. It's not an either/or scenario. Plus, we aren't addressing all injustices and all issues. The topic is same-sex attraction.

The point is that the Church is doing the right thing in changing how they treat this issue. There has been too much misunderstanding in the past, too much prejudice/bias, too many assumptions, etc. The result of the past Church policy has not produced good results. Results like healing, like people coming to Christ, etc. We can and we must do better. That's it. Many of the policies, ideas, doctrines, acts, behaviors that have existed within the Church as it applies to those who have same-sex attraction have created a lot of enmity with those who don't and who do have same-sex attractions.

We can just look at the fruits of our past actions, collectively, and see that the fruits have not been good. This is just what WE can do. We can be more compassionate, we can change old, harmful practices, we can try to be more understanding and still NOT go along with the "gay agenda", and still at the same time still be opposed to those who would want to manipulate and coerce, by forcing their beliefs, like militant pro-gay groups, etc.

That's how I approach it. The mere fact that I am a sinner and in need of the Lord is what ultimately causes my visceral reaction to be tempered. I'm very much opposed to the militant gay agenda and all their tactics, yet, at the same time, I apply as much empathy, compassion, kindness, and goodness that I can, knowing that I'm not in their shoes and, at the end of the day, I don't know what they are experiencing, etc. I do have less patients with individuals who rape children or molest them, for instance, because that is a far more harmful sin and it isn't just two consenting adults choosing, its a child being forced, against their free will, to experience something that will damage them greatly for the rest of their lives. But, that is normal to perceive these actions are more harmful. We all know that raping is a lot more damaging and harmful than two same-sex adults consenting to have sex with each other. We should have less tolerance for some actions and some behavior because some actions and some behaviors are objectively more harmful. In any case, we can do both and it is my belief that we ought to do both. We can treat gay members better than we have and at the same time be opposed to evil things.

-Finrock

[EmmaLee]

At what point does the virtue of tolerance become the wickedness of permissiveness?

[EmmaLee]

Did you notice the first sentence in his opinion piece? "I kept the best part of my life a secret..."

So now, having same-sex attraction is the BEST part of an LDS man's life.

Seriously?

[EmmaLee]

Did you notice the first sentence in his opinion piece? "I kept the best part of my life a secret..."

So now, having same-sex attraction is the BEST part of an LDS man's life.

Seriously?

Being a heterosexual and enjoying the sacred acts with my wife are one of the best parts of my life for sure.....so I guess for him being gay and having the same sexual release in the end is just as gratifying....

Except wickedness never was happiness. I don't ever recall breaking the commandments and rejoicing that it felt gratifying.
And to be sure, acting on sexual desires outside the bounds God set is wickedness- gay or straight. God never has approved of homosexual relationships. In fact, He says they're an abomination.

[EmmaLee]

At what point does the virtue of tolerance become the wickedness of permissiveness?

We were never supposed to tolerate wickedness in the first place and Church leadership has erred in doing so. "Tolerance" in the modern cultural-marxist sense of the word, is a sham, it's meant to disarm the leftwing's political opposition and it's a "do as I say not as I do" leftist doctrine. If you are a conservative white Christian you are not tolerated by those who preach tolerance. Look at how Mike Pence is treated by the left.

[EmmaLee]

Being a heterosexual and enjoying the sacred acts with my wife are one of the best parts of my life for sure.....so I guess for him being gay and having the same sexual release in the end is just as gratifying....

Except wickedness never was happiness. I don't ever recall breaking the commandments and rejoicing that it felt gratifying.
And to be sure, acting on sexual desires outside the bounds God set is wickedness- gay or straight. God never has approved of homosexual relationships. In fact, He says they're an abomination.

I'm not disagreeing with that. For wicked people....doing wicked things is a big part of their life and who they are. That being said I don't think being gay makes one wicked. What a terrible trial. Lets say the gospel suddenly banned opposite-sex attraction, marriage, and sex. I'd be up a creek. I love me some hot women....and one woman is enough for me. So suddenly marriage and sex are out of the question for me? Not good.

I am not an advocate of homosexual marriage...I am just saying some of you are too judgmental. Be grateful you yourselves don't have the trial of same-sex attraction.

It is an easy thing for our minds to equate homosexuality as the equivalent as heterosexuality. If we, as heterosexual men, have strong desires for women and a revulsion to men, then it follows that homosexual men have a strong desire for men and a revulsion to women. This idea has been actively pushed by the modern alphabet movements as a way of normalizing homosexuality. If you relate to it you won't be repulsed by it.

I would be cautious in accepting it as valid. My experiences w/ the homosexual community in the mid 90s and a look at homosexuality throughout history makes it clear to me that homosexuality is a fetish and a lifestyle choice, not an equivalent replacement for heterosexual feelings.

It is difficult to elevate a fetish and choice to a status of protected class, but it easy to elevate an innate characteristic that you can relate to. There is a reason the rhetoric around homosexuality changed a few decades ago, and it wasn't because new scientific information was discovered. It was simply to normalize the behavior and get you to think about homosexual sex in equivalent terms as your own.

[EmmaLee]

I'm not disagreeing with that. For wicked people....doing wicked things is a big part of their life and who they are. That being said I don't think being gay makes one wicked. What a terrible trial. Lets say the gospel suddenly banned opposite-sex attraction, marriage, and sex. I'd be up a creek. I love me some hot women....and one woman is enough for me. So suddenly marriage and sex are out of the question for me? Not good.

I am not an advocate of homosexual marriage...I am just saying some of you are too judgmental. Be grateful you yourselves don't have the trial of same-sex attraction.

It is an easy thing for our minds to equate homosexuality as the equivalent as heterosexuality. If we, as heterosexual men, have strong desires for women and a revulsion to men, then it follows that homosexual men have a strong desire for men and a revulsion to women. This idea has been actively pushed by the modern alphabet movements as a way of normalizing homosexuality. If you relate to it you won't be repulsed by it.

I would be cautious in accepting it as valid. My experiences w/ the homosexual community in the mid 90s and a look at homosexuality throughout history makes it clear to me that homosexuality is a fetish and a lifestyle choice, not an equivalent replacement for heterosexual feelings.

It is difficult to elevate a fetish and choice to a status of protected class, but it easy to elevate an innate characteristic that you can relate to. There is a reason the rhetoric around homosexuality changed a few decades ago, and it wasn't because new scientific information was discovered. It was simply to normalize the behavior and get you to think about homosexual sex in equivalent terms as your own.

I mostly agree with you but I think some people are simply born gay. I have known plenty of people as kids that turned out to be gay, and we knew they were gay when they were kids. I'm talking as young as 8, 9, 10 years old we knew. One girl in my class was the classic tomboy....she loved to play with the boys and do manly things and lo and behold all these years later she is a lesbian....big shocker. I knew grew up with a guy at church that was so effeminate, we always sort of teased him behind his back for being a girl. He went on a mission, got married, had kids....then after all that came out as gay. Big shocker? No....the shocker was that he married a female in the first place.

Since puberty I have been attracted to women. If not for the mandate to remain celibate before marriage and have sexual relations with only your spouse....I'd have aspirations to break Wilt Chamberlain's record. It made it a lot easier to know that I could enjoy the relationship and the sex that comes with it if I were married in the temple for time and eternity. I can't even imagine what it would be like if, for some reason, I were viewed to be a deviant by society and then ridiculed and cast off from societies like church because of my attraction to women. I am glad that is not the case, and I am glad same-sex attraction is not my trial to bare. We should treat those people with kindness and understanding.....while at the same time standing firm that the BEHAVIOR itself is sinful if acted upon because the Lord has said it is, and we lack the understanding as to why some are born that way.

Do the anecdotal stories of effeminate men who do not identify is homosexual or the anecdotal stories of tomboy girls who do not identify as lesbian hold the same weight with you as the anecdotal stories you shared? Because they are much more common than your examples. It seems to show it is more likely a choice than otherwise since there are no reliable indicators one can use.

Did you ever think that perhaps you and your friends teasing was more formative for this young man coming out as homosexual than genetics? Perhaps you put the initial thoughts in his head and reinforced them. He then internalized that he was different and began nurturing his difference and developing his fetish. I have yet to meet a homosexual that didn't have some experience that sent them down the path of investigating homosexuality (or any other fetish for that matter).

As I said earlier, you are equating your own natural desire/attraction for the opposite sex to homosexuality and I believe this to be a mistake. You are assuming that a homosexual must feel just like you when in reality your desire is biological while theirs is that of a carefully nurtured fetish.

[EmmaLee]

Every day there are more LDS "allies" joining the ranks of those supporting gay marriage. Mormons Building Bridges, Mama Dragons, Affirmation, Richard Ostler and his rallies and podcasts, the Augensteins and their Let's Love Better Facebook page, Bryce Cook's ALL for Arizona LGBTQ and allies, the Latter Gay Stories podcasts, just to name a few. Every single one of these groups does NOT consider homosexual activity (like sodomy) a sin. They use words like "divinely created" "perfect" "noble and great ones" "beautiful" and more, to describe the homosexual/transsexual/queerness of their gay heroes. They post photos of their gay weddings. They comment that these weddings are the most beautiful and spirit-filled weddings they've ever attended. They denounce any comment along the lines of love the sinner, hate the sin, or "struggling with being gay" or anything negative. They are praying that the LDS church leaders will soon accept gay marriage as the normal, God-given attribute they believe it is, and will accept gay couples into full fellowship. Yes, they want gay sealings. Yes, they called Oaks a bigoted homophobic hater, and the cause of several suicides after his October Conference talk.

The Gay Agenda wrapped up in the hearts and flowers of the Mormon faith is truly a sign of the Last Days.
Can anyone tell me why you can openly call an Apostle what they call Oaks, and still go to the temple? Can you tell me why they can actively promote marriage (and therefore sex) between two gays, and still go to the temple?

Because they do, and they do.

[dezNatDefender]

https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaint ... /?sort=new

Some of the comments:
"Dude you're the coolest."
"That’s one of the most faith strengthening things I’ve read in a long time. Thank you so much brother!"
"Gay people who still try their best to follow the Lord and keep his commandments are some of the most noble souls in my opinion. You are amazing, and I am glad to see that the negativity has not gotten you down and that you are doing what you are!"

[Finrock]

In the present church, it’s accepted to be gay, but not to drink........this is sad.

In the present Church, its OK to be an alcoholic, but if you drink alcohol, you'll lose your recommend.

That, to me, seems to be a more fair comparison because your example was comparing something that you are VS. something that you do. Being gay (something you are) VS. drinking alcohol (something you do).

-Finrock

[larsenb]

. . . . . . Do the anecdotal stories of effeminate men who do not identify is homosexual or the anecdotal stories of tomboy girls who do not identify as lesbian hold the same weight with you as the anecdotal stories you shared? Because they are much more common than your examples. It seems to show it is more likely a choice than otherwise since there are no reliable indicators one can use.

Did you ever think that perhaps you and your friends teasing was more formative for this young man coming out as homosexual than genetics? Perhaps you put the initial thoughts in his head and reinforced them. He then internalized that he was different and began nurturing his difference and developing his fetish. I have yet to meet a homosexual that didn't have some experience that sent them down the path of investigating homosexuality (or any other fetish for that matter).

As I said earlier, you are equating your own natural desire/attraction for the opposite sex to homosexuality and I believe this to be a mistake. You are assuming that a homosexual must feel just like you when in reality your desire is biological while theirs is that of a carefully nurtured fetish.

Too often, people seem to ignore the prevalence of seduction among pre-and earlly teens and older, by even older homosexual males who actually may be adults.

Once this happens, a goodly percentage of these victims will discover that their powerful, powerful sexual feelings, with emotions following, are entrained by the male side of the equation . . . their seducers.

This segment of the homosexual population doesn't necessarily have to start out w/same-sex attraction. And I would guess, the segment represents quite a large percentage of this population.