State of Utah to de-certify BYU Police Dept. Sept. 1

[Col. Flagg]

The church is going to be in damage control over this once those private records become public, especially regarding football and basketball athletes...

https://www.abc4.com/news/local-news/ut ... 1811927117

[LucianAMD]

Yes this just makes them look bad. Makes people wonder what they are hiding.

[PressingForward]

Frankly having a niece there and hearing about how they have basically silenced rape victims on/off campus with threats of “honor code violations” I wouldn’t let my daughter go there if they paid us. It’s disgusting to do that to a young woman, especially one of our church. While the campus might(and that’s a BIG MIGHT) be safer in regards to rape/sexual assault, just the hypocricy alone turns my stomach....

[Benaishtart]

Just more BRIGHAM YOUNG U bashing I see here. You guys make it so obvious where you stand you’re not going to convince any of us on any of your talking points. You all do an amazing job playing your cards. Boring!

[The Airbender]

Just more BRIGHAM YOUNG U bashing I see here. You guys make it so obvious where you stand you’re not going to convince any of us on any of your talking points. You all do an amazing job playing your cards. Boring!

Are you saying they are against the church or are you saying they are Ute fans? Not sure.

I never could stomach the fact that the science department begins with a prayer and then proceeds to teach evolution as fact. I mean, isn't it supposed to be the "Lord's University?"

[LucianAMD]

Just more BRIGHAM YOUNG U bashing I see here. You guys make it so obvious where you stand you’re not going to convince any of us on any of your talking points. You all do an amazing job playing your cards. Boring!

You think they have a case for having authority from the state to have a police force, but choose not to follow the requirements of GRAMA laws? I have yet to here a reasonable argument for it, so I'm all ears/eyes.

[cyclOps]

Just more BRIGHAM YOUNG U bashing I see here. You guys make it so obvious where you stand you’re not going to convince any of us on any of your talking points. You all do an amazing job playing your cards. Boring!

You think they have a case for having authority from the state to have a police force, but choose not to follow the requirements of GRAMA laws? I have yet to here a reasonable argument for it, so I'm all ears/eyes.

From the article it sounds like it had nothing to do with GRAMA, rather complying with a subpoena.

[PressingForward]

Just more BRIGHAM YOUNG U bashing I see here. You guys make it so obvious where you stand you’re not going to convince any of us on any of your talking points. You all do an amazing job playing your cards. Boring!

So you deny the FACT that BYU has charged rape victims with honor code violations with no other reason than that they were raped?
This FACT is why BYU was forced to change the way they enforce the “honor code”.
Pull your head out.......

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/27/us/r ... sions.html

Or do you protect all things church even when the hypocricy is blatant? Your snow job is piling up.......yawn...

[LucianAMD]

Just more BRIGHAM YOUNG U bashing I see here. You guys make it so obvious where you stand you’re not going to convince any of us on any of your talking points. You all do an amazing job playing your cards. Boring!

You think they have a case for having authority from the state to have a police force, but choose not to follow the requirements of GRAMA laws? I have yet to here a reasonable argument for it, so I'm all ears/eyes.

From the article it sounds like it had nothing to do with GRAMA, rather complying with a subpoena.

My bad. I didn't realize BYU police were dealing with multiple issues at the moment. Guess that says even more about them.

[cyclOps]

Just more BRIGHAM YOUNG U bashing I see here. You guys make it so obvious where you stand you’re not going to convince any of us on any of your talking points. You all do an amazing job playing your cards. Boring!

You think they have a case for having authority from the state to have a police force, but choose not to follow the requirements of GRAMA laws? I have yet to here a reasonable argument for it, so I'm all ears/eyes.

From the article it sounds like it had nothing to do with GRAMA, rather complying with a subpoena.

My bad. I didn't realize BYU police were dealing with multiple issues at the moment. Guess that says even more about them.

The GRAMA argument is separate, has nothing to do with the decertification, and is up for debate.

[Fiannan]

Okay, let me get this straight, if a woman has had some alcohol, and gets raped by the guy she is with, if she were to report the rape, and mention the alcohol, she would face disciplinary action under the honor code? I hate to say that there are probably many girls who come from "perfect" families with "perfect" reputations who would freak out so much about such a thing that these women would rather not report the rape, rather than compound the misery she could face.

I do hope this policy has been altered in recent years.

[investigator]

Okay, let me get this straight, if a woman has had some alcohol, and gets raped by the guy she is with, if she were to report the rape, and mention the alcohol, she would face disciplinary action under the honor code? I hate to say that there are probably many girls who come from "perfect" families with "perfect" reputations who would freak out so much about such a thing that these women would rather not report the rape, rather than compound the misery she could face.

I do hope this policy has been altered in recent years.

Even worse, she may have had on a sleeveless shirt, oh my!

[PressingForward]

....or flip flops

[Serragon]

Okay, let me get this straight, if a woman has had some alcohol, and gets raped by the guy she is with, if she were to report the rape, and mention the alcohol, she would face disciplinary action under the honor code? I hate to say that there are probably many girls who come from "perfect" families with "perfect" reputations who would freak out so much about such a thing that these women would rather not report the rape, rather than compound the misery she could face.

I do hope this policy has been altered in recent years.

This policy has been changed.

Women at BYU are no longer to be held accountable for honor code violations they willingly agreed to if they claim to have been assaulted. Men have no such get out of jail free card.

[Lizzy60]

Okay, let me get this straight, if a woman has had some alcohol, and gets raped by the guy she is with, if she were to report the rape, and mention the alcohol, she would face disciplinary action under the honor code? I hate to say that there are probably many girls who come from "perfect" families with "perfect" reputations who would freak out so much about such a thing that these women would rather not report the rape, rather than compound the misery she could face.

I do hope this policy has been altered in recent years.

This happened recently at BYU Idaho. A woman had some alcohol, and was sexually assaulted. When she asked the police about reporting the rape, they told her it would not affect her enrollment at BYUI. After reporting the assault, the man who raped her tattled to her YSA Bishop that she had been drinking. After the Bishop talked to her, and she admitted having a few beers, he rescinded her ecclesiastical endorsement and she was expelled.

The policy of not suspending a student for reporting a sexual assault, even if she broke an honor code rule, was enacted in 2016.

The incident I mentioned above was just last August, two years later.

https://www.chronicle.com/article/BYU-I ... for/244164

I don't know if this glaring loophole has been changed, or if Bishops still have this level of control over a student's enrollment.

[Serragon]

Okay, let me get this straight, if a woman has had some alcohol, and gets raped by the guy she is with, if she were to report the rape, and mention the alcohol, she would face disciplinary action under the honor code? I hate to say that there are probably many girls who come from "perfect" families with "perfect" reputations who would freak out so much about such a thing that these women would rather not report the rape, rather than compound the misery she could face.

I do hope this policy has been altered in recent years.

This happened recently at BYU Idaho. A woman had some alcohol, and was sexually assaulted. When she asked the police about reporting the rape, they told her it would not affect her enrollment at BYUI. After reporting the assault, the man who raped her tattled to her YSA Bishop that she had been drinking. After the Bishop talked to her, and she admitted having a few beers, he rescinded her ecclesiastical endorsement and she was expelled.

I don't know if this glaring loophole has been changed, or if Bishops still have this level of control over a student's enrollment.

How is this a loophole? Shouldn't she be held to the same standard as anyone else who was drinking?

[Lizzy60]

It's a loophole because the Honor Code office specifically states that any Honor Code violation that may have contributed to the assault, in this case drinking beer, will NOT be the cause for expelling the student. But then, the Bishop can override that, by withdrawing her ecclesiastical endorsement, for the exact same violation that the Honor Code has said will not cause her to be expelled.

[Serragon]

It's a loophole because the Honor Code office specifically states that any Honor Code violation that may have contributed to the assault, in this case drinking beer, will NOT be the cause for expelling the student. But then, the Bishop can override that, by withdrawing her ecclesiastical endorsement, for the exact same violation that the Honor Code has said will not cause her to be expelled.

The only loophole is that you can get out of being held to the same standards as others if you claim assault. What a perverse incentive.

[Lizzy60]

It's a loophole because the Honor Code office specifically states that any Honor Code violation that may have contributed to the assault, in this case drinking beer, will NOT be the cause for expelling the student. But then, the Bishop can override that, by withdrawing her ecclesiastical endorsement, for the exact same violation that the Honor Code has said will not cause her to be expelled.

The only loophole is that you can get out of being held to the same standards as others if you claim assault. What a perverse incentive.

Men are getting away with rape at BYU because the woman is afraid of getting kicked out of school. That's not right on any level, and the school has recognized this and changed the policy. But then a bishop can override it. So it's as if the school had done nothing.

But, come out as gay and they will throw you a party.

[Serragon]

It's a loophole because the Honor Code office specifically states that any Honor Code violation that may have contributed to the assault, in this case drinking beer, will NOT be the cause for expelling the student. But then, the Bishop can override that, by withdrawing her ecclesiastical endorsement, for the exact same violation that the Honor Code has said will not cause her to be expelled.

The only loophole is that you can get out of being held to the same standards as others if you claim assault. What a perverse incentive.

Men are getting away with rape at BYU because the woman is afraid of getting kicked out of school. That's not right on any level, and the school has recognized this and changed the policy. But then a bishop can override it. So it's as if the school had done nothing.

But, come out as gay and they will throw you a party.

I also don't believe that is right in any way. But the answer is not to create a different injustice to fix the current one which is what this new policy does.

We should teach people to have the moral character to report a crime even if it means you might get in trouble, and then be merciful in judgement. Anyone woman willing to let other women be raped so she won't get in trouble for violating the honor code indicates a lack of moral character.

Telling people they can avoid honor code violations if they claim assault is perverse and will end up getting innocent men kicked out of BYU and possibly in prison.

[Davka]

I can only speak from my experience at BYU, which is that the ecclesiastical endorsements related to the Honor Code are very subjective, according to the individual bishop.

I know personally and well two girls who were having sex while at BYU. They were in the same ward. Both were remorseful and I truly believe doing their best to repent. Both participated in disciplinary councils. One was put on formal probation and remained at BYU. The other was disfellowshipped and had to take a break from school, but eventually returned and graduated.

It's not a perfect system, but a lot of that is because some ecclesiastical leaders draw a finer line than others, and it relies on their judgement.

It seems like this is the case when assaults happen, as well. One bishop, perhaps going by the Spirit, sees that a girl was truly a victim, while another punishes her because he thinks she was responsible or vice versa.

[shadow]

....or flip flops

Or a beard

[shadow]

Okay, let me get this straight, if a woman has had some alcohol, and gets raped by the guy she is with, if she were to report the rape, and mention the alcohol, she would face disciplinary action under the honor code? I hate to say that there are probably many girls who come from "perfect" families with "perfect" reputations who would freak out so much about such a thing that these women would rather not report the rape, rather than compound the misery she could face.

I do hope this policy has been altered in recent years.

This happened recently at BYU Idaho. A woman had some alcohol, and was sexually assaulted. When she asked the police about reporting the rape, they told her it would not affect her enrollment at BYUI. After reporting the assault, the man who raped her tattled to her YSA Bishop that she had been drinking. After the Bishop talked to her, and she admitted having a few beers, he rescinded her ecclesiastical endorsement and she was expelled.

The policy of not suspending a student for reporting a sexual assault, even if she broke an honor code rule, was enacted in 2016.

The incident I mentioned above was just last August, two years later.

https://www.chronicle.com/article/BYU-I ... for/244164

I don't know if this glaring loophole has been changed, or if Bishops still have this level of control over a student's enrollment.

This is just silly, Lizzy. Neither the police or the school reported it to the Bishop, the other party involved reported it. That isn't a loophole. Don't want to get kicked out of school then don't break the rules. Actions have consequences.

The rule: Don't drink
The consequence for breaking the rule: Expelled from school.

This millennial mentality of no consequences has been quite pervasive, so much that even previous generations have fallen for it.

The only loophole is you can break the rules and not have any consequences so long as an assault is involved.

If I drive drunk and someone crashes into me (not my fault) I should still get a ticket for a DUI. Why would anyone think otherwise??