Yeah, I guess I did word it that way, didn't I? Good point.RocknRoll wrote: ↑February 25th, 2019, 4:55 pmAre you really asking me by what authority I make the claim that you don't have the authority to make the claims you make? Sorry, not going down that road.The Airbender wrote: ↑February 25th, 2019, 4:12 pm By what authority do you make those claims? Where is the revelation that says he was wrong? Perhaps he knew things that we don't. Remember the first pharaoh of Egypt was a righteous man, but he was not allowed to have the priesthood. How is our situation any different? His "racist 'doctrine'" did not originate with him. The Lord has been slaughtering people of lower lineages from the beginning of the world. I think Brigham was probably more mild than the Lord because he treated people fairly. This goes back to other posts that I've written, but I believe certain people are of a lower level, namely level 2. I don't believe we are required to keep the Law of Chastity until we are 3rd estate beings, just as we are not given the Law of Chastity in the temple until the Terrestrial World. We often judge people as if they were on our same level when in fact there are all kinds of unseen variables, seen only by the Lord. Joseph Smith and Brigham couldn't share most of what they knew. Brigham Young simple said more, or more words of his are preserved and so we judge him the harshest.
No, it's the other way around. It is the Woman's choice. I probably wasn't very clear in what I meant.thestock wrote: ↑February 25th, 2019, 4:21 pmThat sounds like a wonderful Celestial Kingdom for women.........being forced against your will by the Priesthood to go for eternity with a man you are not choosing......The Airbender wrote: ↑February 25th, 2019, 3:45 pmHmm... but the things Brigham said would certainly clear up the confusion as to why Joseph married other wives and sometimes married the wives of married men. Perhaps without believing, we will never understand. What if those were Joseph's rightful wives from before this life? What if Brigham Young was an annointed servant of God and we are wrong to disbelieve him?investigator wrote: ↑February 25th, 2019, 10:10 amBrigham Young, General Conference 8 October 1861"This other path a woman may take, if she can get a chance, and do it in accordance with the order of heaven, if a woman can find a man holding the keys of the priesthood with higher power and authority than her husband, and he is disposed to take her, he can do so, otherwise she has got to remain where she is. This is a second way in which a woman can leave her husband to whom she has been sealed for time and eternity. In either of these ways of separation you can discover there is no need for a bill of divorcement."
No need for divorce, just find a man with more keys? Very convenient considering Brigham had the most "keys". Contrast this to the teaching in our Doctrine and Covenants at the time of Joseph Smith.
"One man should have one wife, and one woman one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again. It's not right to persuade a woman to be baptized contrary to the will of her husband, neither is it lawful to influence her to leave her husband."
You will get stoned if you criticize or disbelieve Russel M Nelson, but you are at free liberty to say whatever and believe whatever you want about the words of a man who held the same mantle and was much closer to our dispensation head. Seems.... hypocritical? It's like double speak. You can't have it both ways.
History declares that the greatest truths are always found nearest the dispensation heads and the people slowly fall away from there. You can argue all you want but why should we be different from the rest of humanity that has lived on this earth? Unless there is a revitilization, we don't ever get back to where we were.
Funny thing is, President Nelson is beginning a revitilization and that is what is making people so upset. I mean, what do people expect to happen when we receive the keys to translation and resurrection? President Nelson is going to resurrect his first wife and she and Wendy will both be sealed to our prophet.
What if there are women who were widowed and remarried a man who had never married? In the resurrection the first husband is going to come claim her. What if she was his second wive and prefers to remain with her second husband? He will use the priesthood, or request from someone with the keys to take her from her first husband and give her to himself. What if Joseph and Brigham were simply ahead of the times? What if they knew things we don't?
IMO Brigham Young looks worse when you read all of his statements IN context , but hey, that’s just me .Phantom wrote: ↑February 25th, 2019, 9:26 pm No prophet of this dispensation has been taken out of context more than Brigham Young. I would advise that you read and study every reliable souce of what he had to say -- and if you have any pioneer heritage at all, then study your family history and learn what those of your family thought of Brigham and his interactions with them.
When I went to college I was taught Brigham was "a monster". Indeed, I was horrified what the world said of him. Then I began to study what Brigham really said and what he really did.
Nobody in this life nor the life to come can ever convince me that Brigham was anything less than a stalwart servant of God and a true prophet of the first order. He was one of the noble and great ones.
In the very liberal ward I just moved away from, that was essentially run by a cabal of liberal feminists who were either divorced or married to men with no testicles.....the Sunday School teacher liberal feminist taught an entire lesson on how Abraham was a misogynist adulterer and murderer who never actually received the revelation to sacrifice his son (because the God she "chooses to believe in would never ask that of anybody").
Wow, and in positions of influence. Nobody called her out?thestock wrote: ↑February 26th, 2019, 11:17 amIn the very liberal ward I just moved away from, that was essentially run by a cabal of liberal feminists who were either divorced or married to men with no testicles.....the Sunday School teacher liberal feminist taught an entire lesson on how Abraham was a misogynist adulterer and murderer who never actually received the revelation to sacrifice his son (because the God she "chooses to believe in would never ask that of anybody").
The further along society gets, the more wicked and unenlightened the heroes from the past become to the current wicked generation.....
She had crossed the line many times in that position, and her "husband" was the Sunday School president. This particular class of hers was the last draw for me. I informed the Bishop about the class and its contents....which is the first and only time I have complained about a fellow member of the church in any official capacity. The Bishop informed me he's well aware of her problems and on that particular class had already received dozens of complaints. It was false doctrine, plain and simple......and of course, nothing was done about it. She was a Kate Kelley follower, and would post her "women are superior Priestesses to men" crap all the time on facebook. After Oaks shut down the Ordain Women movement....she was ordered to stop teaching false doctrine in her lessons....and she mostly did (with the occasional veiled attempt to mock or criticize)....but nothing was done to her after this last incident. I got a new job, and relocated my family to a different state. We've yet to encounter any sort of that crap in our new Stake....Fiannan wrote: ↑February 26th, 2019, 11:24 amWow, and in positions of influence. Nobody called her out?thestock wrote: ↑February 26th, 2019, 11:17 amIn the very liberal ward I just moved away from, that was essentially run by a cabal of liberal feminists who were either divorced or married to men with no testicles.....the Sunday School teacher liberal feminist taught an entire lesson on how Abraham was a misogynist adulterer and murderer who never actually received the revelation to sacrifice his son (because the God she "chooses to believe in would never ask that of anybody").
The further along society gets, the more wicked and unenlightened the heroes from the past become to the current wicked generation.....
Maybe she should have a lesson on the advantages to joining a coven.
It is one thing to joke and such but that is being a bit over the line.
I have not read the book but am aware and have read several of the minutes of these meetings where they confronted several disagreements in the quorum.MMbelieve wrote: ↑February 26th, 2019, 1:02 pm Has anyone here read this book
Conflict in the Quorum: Orson Pratt, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith By Gary James Bergera
Here is a link with a summary
http://www.mrm.org/conflict-in-the-quorum
There is some interesting things said in this summary about BY.
I didnt know that BY disapproved of the bible translation by Joseph Smith because it supported that Adam was created of the dust.
I also didnt know that BY disapproved of the the book written about Joseph by his mother.
Both of these are supported by the church today.
Some of you may doubt the truth of what I now say, and argue that the Lord could teach him. This is a mistake. The Lord could not have taught him in any other way than in the way in which He did teach him. You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it is supposed that it is so written in the Bible; but it is not, to my understanding. You can write that information to the States, if you please-that I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do. I never did, and I never want to. What is the reason I do not? Because I have come to understanding, and banished from my mind all the baby stories my mother taught me when I was a child. But suppose Adam was made and fashioned the same as we make adobies; if he had never drunk of the bitter cup; the Lord might have talked to him to this day, and he would have continued as he was to all eternity, never advancing one particle in the school of intelligence. This idea opens up a field of light to the intelligent mind. How can you know truth but by its opposite, or light but by its opposite? The absence of light is darkness. How can sweetness be known but by its opposite, bitter? It is by this means that we obtain all intelligence.
Journal of Discourse 2:6-7 (October 23, 1853)
To Biblical Creationists and those who interpret the Bible as being absolutely literal:ElizaRSkousen wrote: ↑February 26th, 2019, 1:26 pmI have not read the book but am aware and have read several of the minutes of these meetings where they confronted several disagreements in the quorum.MMbelieve wrote: ↑February 26th, 2019, 1:02 pm Has anyone here read this book
Conflict in the Quorum: Orson Pratt, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith By Gary James Bergera
Here is a link with a summary
http://www.mrm.org/conflict-in-the-quorum
There is some interesting things said in this summary about BY.
I didnt know that BY disapproved of the bible translation by Joseph Smith because it supported that Adam was created of the dust.
I also didnt know that BY disapproved of the the book written about Joseph by his mother.
Both of these are supported by the church today.
Brigham disapproved of people not being willing to further understand the “baby stories” in the Bible. He didn’t disapprove of the Bible itself. He disliked that so many members couldn’t get past the symbolism there and accept the more detailed truth.
Some of you may doubt the truth of what I now say, and argue that the Lord could teach him. This is a mistake. The Lord could not have taught him in any other way than in the way in which He did teach him. You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it is supposed that it is so written in the Bible; but it is not, to my understanding. You can write that information to the States, if you please-that I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do. I never did, and I never want to. What is the reason I do not? Because I have come to understanding, and banished from my mind all the baby stories my mother taught me when I was a child. But suppose Adam was made and fashioned the same as we make adobies; if he had never drunk of the bitter cup; the Lord might have talked to him to this day, and he would have continued as he was to all eternity, never advancing one particle in the school of intelligence. This idea opens up a field of light to the intelligent mind. How can you know truth but by its opposite, or light but by its opposite? The absence of light is darkness. How can sweetness be known but by its opposite, bitter? It is by this means that we obtain all intelligence.
Journal of Discourse 2:6-7 (October 23, 1853)
If everyone had mingled, that would have been true.investigator wrote: ↑February 25th, 2019, 10:36 amBrigham Young, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Spring 1973, p. 56The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain the Church must go to destruction, - we should receive the curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain, and never more be numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the priesthood until that curse be removed.
So what was your point? Throw quotes at the wall and see which stuck?investigator wrote: ↑February 25th, 2019, 10:39 amBrigham Young, Brigham Young Addresses, Feb. 5, 1852, LDS historical departmentCain slew his brother.... and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and tehn another curse is pronounced upon the same race – that they should be the 'servant of servants,' and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favorable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion.
I think it's a pretty nice wake up for complainers, whiners, con-LDS, etc. Hopefully it will help many to realize, duh, okay, time to get on with my OWN life!MMbelieve wrote: ↑February 25th, 2019, 1:00 pmHe was a prophet/president in charge of the church, unless theres another man on here thats been a prophet/president then no one would have his credentials.Craig Johnson wrote: ↑February 25th, 2019, 11:49 am Four things I will say about the Prophet Brigham Young and one question, 1) He is more like the Savior than any person who has ever posted on this website, whether you like him or not. 2) He helped in the conversion of more people to the restored gospel than has anyone who ever posted on this website, whether you like him or not. 3) He did more in leading the church than any poster who has ever posted on this website, whether you like him or not. 4) He has not criticized any of those who have criticized him on this website, whether you like him or not. 5) He has a university named after him, do you?
Pretty typical immature argument to humble (put down) others to boost one. Not a good method and it doesnt really help BY.
And purple cows fly......sushi_chef wrote: ↑February 26th, 2019, 7:24 pm it is said by the order from brigham and willard hosea stout(1810 - 89) poisoned samuel h smith(1808 - 44 jul 30).
"Shortly after the death of Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum in 1844 at the hands of a unit of the Illinois State Militia, their brother Samuel H. Smith also died under allegedly suspicious circumstances. Samuel Smith's daughter and William Smith, who was the only surviving Smith brother, later claimed that Stout had poisoned Samuel under orders from Brigham Young and Willard Richards, members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.[1][2][3] However, Stout was never tried for this alleged crime and Smith's claims are disputed.[4]
"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosea_Stout
""In the October 1849 issue of his newspaper, the 'Melchisedek & Aaronic Herald,' William Smith publishe[d] a list of Mormon martyrs, including Samuel H. [Smith], 'who died from the effects of poison administered to him. He died within one month after the martyrdom of his brother.'"
("Martyrs of the Latter Day Saints," in 'Melchisedek & Aaronic Herald' (Covington, Kentucky) 1, no. 7, Oct. 1849)
A few years later, in a letter to the “New York Tribune,” William Smith provided further details on the suspicious death of his brother, Samuel, pointing a direct finger at Brigham Young and Willard Richards, accusing them of orchestrating Samuel's murder:
"I have good reason for believing that my brother Samuel H. Smith, died of poison at Nauvoo, administered by order of Brigham Young and Willard Richards, only a few weeks subsequent to the unlawful murder of my other brothers, Joseph and Hiram Smith, while incarcerated in Carthage jail.
"Several other persons who were presumed to stand between Brigham Young and the accomplishment of his ambitions and wicked designs, mysteriously disappeared from Nauvoo about the same time, and have never been heard from since."
(William Smith, "Mormonism," letter to the “New York Tribune,” 28 May 1857)
""'And William Smith has asserted that I was the cause of the death of his brother Samuel, when brother Woodruff, who is here to day, knows that we were waiting at the depôt in Boston to take passage east at the very time when Joseph and Hyrum were killed. Brother Taylor was nearly killed at the time, and Doctor Richards had his whiskers nearly singed off by the blaze from the guns. In a few weeks after, Samuel Smith died, and I am blamed as the cause of his death." (Prophet Brigham Young, July 1857, 'Journal of Discourses,' vol. 5, p.c77)
hosea stout samuel smith poison
https://search.yahoo.co.jp/search?ei=UT ... h%20poison
`about 1:40~ samuel joined them, so, perhaps samuel was also murdered.
