The Brigham Young Poll

[markharr]

So now we rate prophets like a toaster you bought on Amazon?


The entire premise of this thread is wrong. It isnt fair to judge historical figures through the lens of modern perspective.

[Sirius]

How would the Church today vote on this pole?

Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form. https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the ... d?lang=eng

“The origins of priesthood availability are not entirely clear. Some explanations with respect to this matter were made in the absence of direct revelation and references to these explanations are sometimes cited in publications. These previous personal statements do not represent Church doctrine.” “The origins of priesthood availability are not entirely clear. Some explanations with respect to this matter were made in the absence of direct revelation and references to these explanations are sometimes cited in publications. These previous personal statements do not represent Church doctrine.” https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/race-church

Looks like the church unequivocally condemns the teachings of Brigham Young stating he preached church doctrine in the absence of revelation.

Looks like the "keystone" of our religion aligns with brother Brigham
Alma 3

6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.

7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.

8 And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not mix and believe in incorrect traditions which would prove their destruction.

9 And it came to pass that whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed.

10 Therefore, whosoever suffered himself to be led away by the Lamanites was called under that head, and there was a mark set upon him.

2Nephi 5

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.

23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.

What does that say about the church today which has unequivocally condemned those teachings? You don't get to have it both ways.

The same thing it says when it abandoned plural marriage and the Law of Consecration. That WE as a church are getting too comfortable in Babylon.

[investigator]

For the record, I have not criticized Brigham Young. I have only posted what he taught and what today's church has said about what he taught.

[MMbelieve]

Four things I will say about the Prophet Brigham Young and one question, 1) He is more like the Savior than any person who has ever posted on this website, whether you like him or not. 2) He helped in the conversion of more people to the restored gospel than has anyone who ever posted on this website, whether you like him or not. 3) He did more in leading the church than any poster who has ever posted on this website, whether you like him or not. 4) He has not criticized any of those who have criticized him on this website, whether you like him or not. 5) He has a university named after him, do you?

He was a prophet/president in charge of the church, unless theres another man on here thats been a prophet/president then no one would have his credentials.

Pretty typical immature argument to humble (put down) others to boost one. Not a good method and it doesnt really help BY.

[MMbelieve]

Looks like the church unequivocally condemns the teachings of Brigham Young stating he preached church doctrine in the absence of revelation.

Didn't Joseph Smith say blacks and whites were of different species?

Even if both said they were different species we know they are both incorrect.

[Ezra]

Like any man. BY had both good and bad things about him. His Adam god teachings???? Not so good. I like his teaching on the dangers of public schools. Wish people listened to those teachings.

[RocknRoll]

Four things I will say about the Prophet Brigham Young and one question, 1) He is more like the Savior than any person who has ever posted on this website, whether you like him or not. 2) He helped in the conversion of more people to the restored gospel than has anyone who ever posted on this website, whether you like him or not. 3) He did more in leading the church than any poster who has ever posted on this website, whether you like him or not. 4) He has not criticized any of those who have criticized him on this website, whether you like him or not. 5) He has a university named after him, do you?

Although I believe BY was called as a prophet, accomplished many great things, and was a great leader for the church, there are also many things he got wrong. Most notably, polygamy and his racist “doctrine”.
1 – 4 Although likely, these things are unknowable to you. 5. There are many universities named after people. This has nothing to do with whether he was a great prophet or not.

[moving2zion]

I know that he made a lot of mistakes, I have researched some of what he was involved with. However I still feel he was called of God and that he led the church in the direction that the Lord wanted it to go at the time. I have family members that enjoyed great prosperity because of his leadership, and some that faltered and lost out on worldly blessings. But hey I am here- personal worthiness and diligence is on my shoulders, not theirs.

[The Airbender]

"This other path a woman may take, if she can get a chance, and do it in accordance with the order of heaven, if a woman can find a man holding the keys of the priesthood with higher power and authority than her husband, and he is disposed to take her, he can do so, otherwise she has got to remain where she is. This is a second way in which a woman can leave her husband to whom she has been sealed for time and eternity. In either of these ways of separation you can discover there is no need for a bill of divorcement."

Brigham Young, General Conference 8 October 1861

No need for divorce, just find a man with more keys? Very convenient considering Brigham had the most "keys". Contrast this to the teaching in our Doctrine and Covenants at the time of Joseph Smith.

"One man should have one wife, and one woman one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again. It's not right to persuade a woman to be baptized contrary to the will of her husband, neither is it lawful to influence her to leave her husband."

Hmm... but the things Brigham said would certainly clear up the confusion as to why Joseph married other wives and sometimes married the wives of married men. Perhaps without believing, we will never understand. What if those were Joseph's rightful wives from before this life? What if Brigham Young was an annointed servant of God and we are wrong to disbelieve him?

You will get stoned if you criticize or disbelieve Russel M Nelson, but you are at free liberty to say whatever and believe whatever you want about the words of a man who held the same mantle and was much closer to our dispensation head. Seems.... hypocritical? It's like double speak. You can't have it both ways.

History declares that the greatest truths are always found nearest the dispensation heads and the people slowly fall away from there. You can argue all you want but why should we be different from the rest of humanity that has lived on this earth? Unless there is a revitilization, we don't ever get back to where we were.

Funny thing is, President Nelson is beginning a revitilization and that is what is making people so upset. I mean, what do people expect to happen when we receive the keys to translation and resurrection? President Nelson is going to resurrect his first wife and she and Wendy will both be sealed to our prophet.

What if there are women who were widowed and remarried a man who had never married? In the resurrection the first husband is going to come claim her. What if she was his second wive and prefers to remain with her second husband? He will use the priesthood, or request from someone with the keys to take her from her first husband and give her to himself. What if Joseph and Brigham were simply ahead of the times? What if they knew things we don't?

[The Airbender]

Four things I will say about the Prophet Brigham Young and one question, 1) He is more like the Savior than any person who has ever posted on this website, whether you like him or not. 2) He helped in the conversion of more people to the restored gospel than has anyone who ever posted on this website, whether you like him or not. 3) He did more in leading the church than any poster who has ever posted on this website, whether you like him or not. 4) He has not criticized any of those who have criticized him on this website, whether you like him or not. 5) He has a university named after him, do you?

Although I believe BY was called as a prophet, accomplished many great things, and was a great leader for the church, there are also many things he got wrong. Most notably, polygamy and his racist “doctrine”.
1 – 4 Although likely, these things are unknowable to you. 5. There are many universities named after people. This has nothing to do with whether he was a great prophet or not.

By what authority do you make those claims? Where is the revelation that says he was wrong? Perhaps he knew things that we don't. Remember the first pharaoh of Egypt was a righteous man, but he was not allowed to have the priesthood. How is our situation any different? His "racist 'doctrine'" did not originate with him. The Lord has been slaughtering people of lower lineages from the beginning of the world. I think Brigham was probably more mild than the Lord because he treated people fairly. This goes back to other posts that I've written, but I believe certain people are of a lower level, namely level 2. I don't believe we are required to keep the Law of Chastity until we are 3rd estate beings, just as we are not given the Law of Chastity in the temple until the Terrestrial World. We often judge people as if they were on our same level when in fact there are all kinds of unseen variables, seen only by the Lord. Joseph Smith and Brigham couldn't share most of what they knew. Brigham Young simple said more, or more words of his are preserved and so we judge him the harshest.

[thestock]

"This other path a woman may take, if she can get a chance, and do it in accordance with the order of heaven, if a woman can find a man holding the keys of the priesthood with higher power and authority than her husband, and he is disposed to take her, he can do so, otherwise she has got to remain where she is. This is a second way in which a woman can leave her husband to whom she has been sealed for time and eternity. In either of these ways of separation you can discover there is no need for a bill of divorcement."

Brigham Young, General Conference 8 October 1861

No need for divorce, just find a man with more keys? Very convenient considering Brigham had the most "keys". Contrast this to the teaching in our Doctrine and Covenants at the time of Joseph Smith.

"One man should have one wife, and one woman one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again. It's not right to persuade a woman to be baptized contrary to the will of her husband, neither is it lawful to influence her to leave her husband."

Hmm... but the things Brigham said would certainly clear up the confusion as to why Joseph married other wives and sometimes married the wives of married men. Perhaps without believing, we will never understand. What if those were Joseph's rightful wives from before this life? What if Brigham Young was an annointed servant of God and we are wrong to disbelieve him?

You will get stoned if you criticize or disbelieve Russel M Nelson, but you are at free liberty to say whatever and believe whatever you want about the words of a man who held the same mantle and was much closer to our dispensation head. Seems.... hypocritical? It's like double speak. You can't have it both ways.

History declares that the greatest truths are always found nearest the dispensation heads and the people slowly fall away from there. You can argue all you want but why should we be different from the rest of humanity that has lived on this earth? Unless there is a revitilization, we don't ever get back to where we were.

Funny thing is, President Nelson is beginning a revitilization and that is what is making people so upset. I mean, what do people expect to happen when we receive the keys to translation and resurrection? President Nelson is going to resurrect his first wife and she and Wendy will both be sealed to our prophet.

What if there are women who were widowed and remarried a man who had never married? In the resurrection the first husband is going to come claim her. What if she was his second wive and prefers to remain with her second husband? He will use the priesthood, or request from someone with the keys to take her from her first husband and give her to himself. What if Joseph and Brigham were simply ahead of the times? What if they knew things we don't?

That sounds like a wonderful Celestial Kingdom for women.........being forced against your will by the Priesthood to go for eternity with a man you are not choosing......

[RocknRoll]

By what authority do you make those claims? Where is the revelation that says he was wrong? Perhaps he knew things that we don't. Remember the first pharaoh of Egypt was a righteous man, but he was not allowed to have the priesthood. How is our situation any different? His "racist 'doctrine'" did not originate with him. The Lord has been slaughtering people of lower lineages from the beginning of the world. I think Brigham was probably more mild than the Lord because he treated people fairly. This goes back to other posts that I've written, but I believe certain people are of a lower level, namely level 2. I don't believe we are required to keep the Law of Chastity until we are 3rd estate beings, just as we are not given the Law of Chastity in the temple until the Terrestrial World. We often judge people as if they were on our same level when in fact there are all kinds of unseen variables, seen only by the Lord. Joseph Smith and Brigham couldn't share most of what they knew. Brigham Young simple said more, or more words of his are preserved and so we judge him the harshest.

Are you really asking me by what authority I make the claim that you don't have the authority to make the claims you make? Sorry, not going down that road.

[Col. Flagg]

I honestly hope that all men who were eager to have more than one wife on this earth for their own sexual gratification or who did have multiple wives out of the same desire are required by God on the other side to be with multiple men for the same length of time they had more than one wife while experiencing the same emotional anguish and heartache the first wife went through. That would be justice!

[Craig Johnson]

Four things I will say about the Prophet Brigham Young and one question, 1) He is more like the Savior than any person who has ever posted on this website, whether you like him or not. 2) He helped in the conversion of more people to the restored gospel than has anyone who ever posted on this website, whether you like him or not. 3) He did more in leading the church than any poster who has ever posted on this website, whether you like him or not. 4) He has not criticized any of those who have criticized him on this website, whether you like him or not. 5) He has a university named after him, do you?

He was a prophet/president in charge of the church, unless theres another man on here thats been a prophet/president then no one would have his credentials.

Pretty typical immature argument to humble (put down) others to boost one. Not a good method and it doesnt really help BY.

Huh? You feel put down? You want to help the Prophet Brigham Young?

[Serragon]

I honestly hope that all men who were eager to have more than one wife on this earth for their own sexual gratification or who did have multiple wives out of the same desire are required by God on the other side to be with multiple men for the same length of time they had more than one wife while experiencing the same emotional anguish and heartache the first wife went through. That would be justice!

You are advocating for punishment, not justice. There is a difference.

[lemuel]

I personally think Brigham Young was the right man for the job God wanted him to do. The legacy he left for the treatment of blacks and women will leave a lot to be answered for in the next life.

I don't personally think servants of God need to be perfect, but he was playing with that line. Even if polygamy was authorized, the way he practiced it left a broken family who fought over family money and the church's money for generations after he died. He chose favorites among the wives and the children, and spun them all around in mental circles. One son was a cross-dresser, others moved back East to be gentiles and live in finery- until Brigham died, then rushed back to Zion to claim ownership of their gravy-train, the church.

Of course that son, John Willard Young, was ordained an apostle at the age of 11 so he could get a head start on being the senior apostle.

[Col. Flagg]

I honestly hope that all men who were eager to have more than one wife on this earth for their own sexual gratification or who did have multiple wives out of the same desire are required by God on the other side to be with multiple men for the same length of time they had more than one wife while experiencing the same emotional anguish and heartache the first wife went through. That would be justice!

You are advocating for punishment, not justice. There is a difference.

So the 'eternal doctrine' of polygamy is a punishment for women? Agreed! Which is exactly why God has never commanded it.

[Niyr]

I think he did the best he knew how with the knowledge he had about the gospel, but made some pretty big mistakes. The Lord was still able to use his administrative and leadership talents to keep the Church alive. Because he was tutored so personally by Joseph Smith, I think he was able to pass on a lot of that knowledge to the Saints.

I don't consider him greater than any other modern day president of the Church/prophet, or even below any, other than Joseph Smith. I definitely wouldn't count him as a "favorite" prophet.

What were some of his mistakes?

Adam=God

Starting priesthood ban on blacks.

Good prophet, made some mistakes, but these mistakes were anomolies.

[sushi_chef]

great pro.... tends to think he was also a great illuminati masonic leader.





adam weishaupt bee order
https://search.yahoo.co.jp/search?ei=UT ... ee%20order

"23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

25 For it ...
" (ether 8)

whose are those slain blood??
ans ... typically smith brothers.

[True]

Here is a story from LDSLiving about a pioneer handcart participant and his expirence with Brigham Young:

“It was July 1856 somewhere in Wyoming, and the Bunker handcart company was running low on food. Twenty-four-year-old Samuel Taylor Orton soon became too weak to pull his handcart, lagging behind the company and asking the Lord to let him die. All at once, he heard a voice say, “Sam, are you here?” He recorded in a journal entry, “I turned around and answered ‘yes’ but could see no one, which surprised me very much.” However, this small incident motivated the young pioneer to get up and keep walking.


He soon caught up with the company but began asking himself just what he expected to see when he reached Salt Lake City. Why was he out here pulling a handcart on this arduous journey to Zion After thinking it through, Brother Orton made up his mind that “if the Father and the Son did appear to the Prophet Joseph Smith and reveal the gospel unto him, and Brigham Young was his lawful successor, I wanted to see the halo of light around his head, like there was around the head of the Savior on nearly all of the pictures we see.” He then put the experience from his mind and pulled his handcart the rest of the way to Salt Lake City.

The Sabbath after he arrived in the valley, Brother Orton was sitting in the old bowery waiting for church services to begin. Looking around to see if there was anyone in attendance that he knew, he saw President Brigham Young walk in. As Brother Orton looked toward the stand, he instantly and distinctly “saw President Young with the rays of light around his head.” At that moment, the same voice that had spoken to him on the plains said, “Now, Sam, if ever you apostatize, here is your condemnation.” Brother Orton recorded, “I looked around me to see if the people heard it, but, I thought they did not.”

While remarkable, Brother Orton’s experience is only one among many powerful witnesses pioneers received while crossing the plains by handcart. Here are more of their stories, written in their own words.”

[sushi_chef]

wonders how he managed his weakness : love of wealth (kinda love of money too??), is it written in the autobio so on??

"Of Brigham Young as President of the Church, I will again bear this as a faithful testimony that I do know and bear record that upon the head of Brigham Young as chief, with the Apostleship in full, was by the voice of the Prophet Joseph in my hearing, laid the full responsibility of bearing of[f] the kingdom of God to all the world . . . . [When Brigham Young first met Joseph Smith and spoke in tongues in the Adamic languaue the Prophet] at that time, made the prediction upon the head of Brigham Young that ‘at some period he would become the leader of the Church, and that there would be one danger to beset him, and that would be his love of wealth.’ These things were told to me by [Lyman R.] Sherman [i.e., Johnson’s brother-in-law] at near the time of their occurrence” (E. Dale LeBaron, Benjamin Franklin Johnson: Friend to the Prophets [Provo, Utah: Grandin Book Co., 1997], 232, 233). "

[Phantom]

No prophet of this dispensation has been taken out of context more than Brigham Young. I would advise that you read and study every reliable souce of what he had to say -- and if you have any pioneer heritage at all, then study your family history and learn what those of your family thought of Brigham and his interactions with them.

When I went to college I was taught Brigham was "a monster". Indeed, I was horrified what the world said of him. Then I began to study what Brigham really said and what he really did.

Nobody in this life nor the life to come can ever convince me that Brigham was anything less than a stalwart servant of God and a true prophet of the first order. He was one of the noble and great ones.

[simpleton]

No prophet of this dispensation has been taken out of context more than Brigham Young. I would advise that you read and study every reliable souce of what he had to say -- and if you have any pioneer heritage at all, then study your family history and learn what those of your family thought of Brigham and his interactions with them.

When I went to college I was taught Brigham was "a monster". Indeed, I was horrified what the world said of him. Then I began to study what Brigham really said and what he really did.

Nobody in this life nor the life to come can ever convince me that Brigham was anything less than a stalwart servant of God and a true prophet of the first order. He was one of the noble and great ones.

I'll second that.

[Fiannan]

Wow, you know that Brigham Young has been compared to Moses many times. One wonders how Moses would be judged by such "enlightened" members today if he were put under the spotlight.

[Fiannan]

I honestly hope that all men who were eager to have more than one wife on this earth for their own sexual gratification or who did have multiple wives out of the same desire are required by God on the other side to be with multiple men for the same length of time they had more than one wife while experiencing the same emotional anguish and heartache the first wife went through. That would be justice!

You want them to be in an eternal gay bathhouse?