LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **August 17th, 2019, 2:09 pm**

Peace brothers. We aught to care for each other with gentleness, persuasion and love unfeigned despite who is right.

President Nelson is the prophet of the Lord and he holds those keys. And with those keys, rights, and responsibilities he's told us to seek a closer relationship with the Holy Ghost to survive spiritually. However the spirit struggles to be present when we are contentious. Let's stick to what we believe and why and leave out the value judgements. I can do better myself here.

Posted: **August 17th, 2019, 2:27 pm**

Jesef wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 2:01 pm
righteousrepublic wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 1:41 pm
Jesef wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 1:25 pm
righteousrepublic wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 12:53 pm
Is someone trying to rewrite the Gospel of Jesus Christ and much of the panoply of scripture so as to gain followers and deceive everyone with fake news as does mainstream media ad nauseam?
Not at all. I couldn’t care less whether you believe or completely dismiss the possibility of MMP. And I won’t ask you to swear allegiance to or pay me any money either.
This is a relief. I feel much better now. All this fake news can stop coming our way now? We can get back to scripture as they are without trying to interject personal opinions into them?

If you couldn't care less, how much do you care less?
Maybe 7nm. It's hard to measure. Seriously, just Follow the Prophet, Don't Go Astray. Their mantle is far, far greater than your intellect. No need to think, just listen to them. Pray, pay, & obey. Stand & sit, & salute when they tell you. You'll be fine. Get back to your scriptures. Shouldn't you be in the temple instead of wasting time on an MMP thread? I mean you're pretty close to apostasy here. Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? You better get outta here!

Woe, Nellie. Cool your jets and hear the words of Nephi.

1 Nephi 16:2
2 ...the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.

What does get back to the scriptures mean? Does it mean they are false and that MMP is true? Because the scriptures sure do not support it. If not the scriptures, by what sources do we have to accept in order to believe MMP as a true doctrine?

Let's check out a few, shall we?

2 Nephi 9;28
28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

Luke 16:15
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Romans 1:22
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Making fun of scriptures is not wise at all.

Posted: **August 17th, 2019, 2:48 pm**

2 Nephi 9:18
18 But, behold, the righteous, the saints of the Holy One of Israel, they who have believed in the Holy One of Israel, they who have endured the crosses of the world, and despised the shame of it, they shall inherit the kingdom of God, which was prepared for them from the foundation of the world, and their joy shall be full forever.

Gee, nothing about MMP here.

Posted: **August 17th, 2019, 5:18 pm**

I can see that both sides make really good points.

It is often not easy to discover new truths. I hope that someday I can figure it out.

If MMP is a truth, I want to know exactly what it is, and I want to understand it.

If it is not true, then I want to know what the scriptures really mean that seem to imply MMP.

Posted: **August 17th, 2019, 7:21 pm**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 1:41 pm
Jesef wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 1:25 pm
righteousrepublic wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 12:53 pm
jmack wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 9:58 amYea, I disagree, with a lot of what you believe. Here's the problem. We have a basic religious belief. Some don't delve much into it, but others start to read and think about it and try to reconcile their own thoughts with their religion. They build on the foundation of what they've been taught, but expand it to allow for what they like. You've done this a lot, I can tell and it sounds good, it's a lot of information from varying sources and then put together to fit your belief and you have had spiritual experiences you believe support your conclusions. But, the problem as I see it is that some of others have done the same, and have as much or more knowledge than you and they've come to different conclusions. On this thread I've seen some MMP believers use the condescension that others just aren't ready for 'truth' or they like milk and don't want to know more, or I suppose they aren't of the same caliber of spirit, they aren't going to end up a Savior on a world, so why do they need to know this anyway? That's not true, but it's a common excuse for why others don't accept these same ideas. A lot of these ideas that are shared, that we think are new, are not new, they've been around for 1,000's of years and they get brought up and resurrected and modified for a new audience. Some of your ideas are interesting and likely have truth, but some are just false. The Lucifer is not Satan theory is not new, but doesn't make it any more false than when it was first brought up. Lucifer/Satan takes many forms and many names, but it doesn't change that he's the same now as he was then and will continue to be. The Father of Lies and deception and if he can lead you down a path a little ways, give you a little bit here and there, truth mixed with lies, he's accomplishing his plans. I hope you will stay close to the church and the Church's true prophets and don't stray too far that you can't find your way back.
Is someone trying to rewrite the Gospel of Jesus Christ and much of the panoply of scripture so as to gain followers and deceive everyone with fake news as does mainstream media ad nauseam?
Not at all. I couldn’t care less whether you believe or completely dismiss the possibility of MMP. And I won’t ask you to swear allegiance to or pay me any money either.
This is a relief. I feel much better now. All this fake news can stop coming our way now? We can get back to scripture as they are without trying to interject personal opinions into them?

If you could care less, from 1 to 10, how much would you care less?

BTW, I thought I was addressing jmack.

I think I set jesef off by mentioning the prophets.

I said, stay close to the church and listen to the prophets and he read that to mean, 'don't think for yourselves!!!!! Let the prophet be the only one who tells you anything!!!!!' This wasn't my message, but it's like a dog whistle for some. Alaris' needs to be concerned about his reliance on apochrypha and maybe kabbalahish type writings he's using to flesh out his theories. Righteous republic has pointed out scriptures which contradict the belief in MMP, and you'd think they'd would try to make sure their beliefs don't contradict scriptures.

Posted: **August 17th, 2019, 7:27 pm**

In case there's any passing reader here truly considering this mystery, perhaps consider the maturity level on display here may actually match the spiritual maturity level.

Posted: **August 17th, 2019, 8:30 pm**

I just ran across this scripture and it made me think of this thread.

24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

Whatever the truth is, the Lord will eventually bring all those who desire to follow Him to understand it. No reason for contention and arguing over points of doctrine. It’s only throwing Satan a bone.

Posted: **August 17th, 2019, 8:37 pm**

The self-righteous will probably be the least to learn - because they already think they KNOW, so nothing to learn, certainly nothing that would contradict their confirmed biased beliefs. If your cup is full, there's no room for anything new.

Posted: **August 17th, 2019, 8:46 pm**

Jesef wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 8:37 pm The self-righteous will probably be the least to learn - because they already think they KNOW, so nothing to learn, certainly nothing that would contradict their confirmed biased beliefs. If your cup is full, there's no room for anything new.

Or they’ll be the only ones to never learn at all

Posted: **August 17th, 2019, 10:26 pm**

I really do not understand why people who are believing the gospel and good members of this church are being put down for not believing some idea that is not even part of our doctrinal belief. Seriously makes zero sense to me why our own are shaming us for not going on a journey with them to believe in something that presents itself as against the standard teachings.

Interesting times we live in for sure.

Posted: **August 17th, 2019, 10:57 pm**

I'm sorry if I have offended l probably spoke too freely. As much as I'd like to keep the peace, I can't do it by giving support to a teaching I think is false and for some could be destructive. If it makes you feel better you can think I'm closed minded and don't know the gospel very well.

Posted: **August 17th, 2019, 11:36 pm**

Ya'll are awesome, just awesome! All are saints in our midst! Differing thoughts are okay, growth is okay, we are here to learn and experience. I love the defense of truth as you understand it. I am NOT telling you- you are wrong or right. I do know how I believe and it is this. As a kid I recall reading Joseph Smith's comments, it will take a long while to achieve godhood. I couldn't imagine how it should occur. I thought then that it must be like going to school. Grade upon grade, each adding to the last. I still think that way. Even if there were no scriptures involved I would believe in MMP. Very few could meet that stature of Abraham, Adam, or Joseph Smith in this life alone. I mean you have to be a cherub and then a seraphim and then a Christ and an Adam and whatever else. These seem like steps to me. I think it would be a unloving and unjust God who would develop a world and say okay you get one shot to learn and experience all that you can to progress in the following world and be like me or my son. How truly unfair! Babies die at birth or soon there after, old men who live a full life and repent in the last second etc. But all are judged the same? Naah I like the school idea, grade to grade (grace to grace) graduation to graduation (exaltation to exaltation)

Posted: **August 17th, 2019, 11:39 pm**

Jesef wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 8:37 pm The self-righteous will probably be the least to learn - because they already think they KNOW, so nothing to learn, certainly nothing that would contradict their confirmed biased beliefs. If your cup is full, there's no room for anything new.

Self-righteous? What is self-righteous exactly? I take self-righteousness as someone that pretends they are following Christ and living the gospel to the T, but in reality, they are serving God with their lips and their heart is far from Him. They are fake.

Then we have those that make fun of the humble followers of Christ, those who are striving to live the gospel and condition their heart and mind so as to meld their lives the way Christ would be pleased with. They strive to have a broken heart and a contrite spirit...and they stay away from theories and strange doctrines they know in their heart by the Holy Ghost are contrived and false. They use the power of discernment, their knowledge of scripture and their faith in God to steer away from those trying to cause disruption and find it easy to make fun of the faithful.

Confirmed biased beliefs? Look in the mirror.

Anything new? I have read the Book of Mormon 20 times and am now on my 21st. Nothing new? Each time I read it, I get more out of it, I learn something NEW. My cup is not full, but what there is in it is proper and right, agreeable to what is in scripture. Nothing more, nothing less. Just the way Christ wants it. Christ says, anything more or less than what he teaches, cometh of evil. So let that sink in for a while.

1 Tim 6:3-6
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

See, I just now learned something in addition to what was already in my cup. I learned there are some people that will rail others for not believing in MMP. Gee, there just might be more nuggets to be found in scripture.

OH, wow, here is another nugget:

Doctrine and Covenants 10:67-70
67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
70 And now, remember the words of him who is the life and light of the world, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Amen.

Posted: **August 17th, 2019, 11:45 pm**

jmack wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 10:57 pm I'm sorry if I have offended l probably spoke too freely. As much as I'd like to keep the peace, I can't do it by giving support to a teaching I think is false and for some could be destructive. If it makes you feel better you can think I'm closed minded and don't know the gospel very well.

Stand strong.

9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life

Posted: **August 18th, 2019, 12:08 am**

Silver Pie wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 5:18 pm I can see that both sides make really good points.

It is often not easy to discover new truths. I hope that someday I can figure it out.

If MMP is a truth, I want to know exactly what it is, and I want to understand it.

If it is not true, then I want to know what the scriptures really mean that seem to imply MMP.

I understand wanting to know... I will share with you what I have been sharing with others for over twenty five years. But not all here... it has become contentious to do so.

I believe in Eternal Lives - plural lives. I do not believe in MMP - Multiple Mortal Probations. I believe in a First Estate, a pre-existence, live forever in the presence of the Father. Then when one leaves this life (the Second Estate), and is disembodied, it is not like you are being retested to pass the First Estate again, just because your a spirit again. Each Estate has a Law to be lived to pass that step in one's progression. The First Estate is the Law of Obedience and Sacrifice. The one third that were disobedient failed this Estate and were cased down. If one remained Obedient to the will of the Father and is willing to Sacrifice all that one is, a child of G_d in His presence forever, they must Sacrifice this to come here!

I believe in a Second Estate, where one comes into mortality, and obtains a physical body. The Law of this Estate is the Law of the Gospel, the Ten Commandments. One gets only one life to pass this probation, not multiple attempt! You are judged by the light of truth you receive, or if you did not receive it, by what you would have lived, if you had received it. You pass from this realm, which is hell, unto a higher more glorious Estate or realm, a Terrestrial creation. This next Estate is what logically comes after the Second Estate or realm.

I will not continue as there are people here that cannot bear to count higher numbers or believe more then what is written. They have to have it already spelled out for them in the writings that have been adopted from dead holy men (the Scriptures) to believe.

Maybe this is the same reason why these individuals cannot comprehend correct who Lucifer is, as they labor under a false assumption that the Messiah and Lucifer were just common newly organized spirits before they came here. Truth be known, they have past the first two Estates and twice as many after that in multiple other creations before arriving to their station. And even if WE where born of women in another creation into hell, as a emissary of G_d, like the 144,000 Elect whom come down and dawn the dispensations with power and glory, they as Mortal DID NOT come back here into any hell and have to reprove themselves that they are more worthy than a Second Estate realm Being is... as in they need rejudging!

Satan is not Lucifer! Satan is that old Serpent let into the Garden of Eden to tempt our first parents there. It was Lucifer who spoke through the Serpent, and beguiled the Second Eve, making Satan appear as an angel of light and causing Eve to think she had begotten a man child from G_d. It was Satan who was cursed and lost his limbs. (IF SATAN is Lucifer and Lucifer has no body, then how was he cursed to lose his NON-EXISTENT Limbs???

I seal these words as a witness and a testimony of this divine truth. Shalom

Posted: **August 18th, 2019, 12:10 am**

solonan wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 11:36 pm Ya'll are awesome, just awesome! All are saints in our midst! Differing thoughts are okay, growth is okay, we are here to learn and experience. I love the defense of truth as you understand it. I am NOT telling you- you are wrong or right. I do know how I believe and it is this. As a kid I recall reading Joseph Smith's comments, it will take a long while to achieve godhood. I couldn't imagine how it should occur. I thought then that it must be like going to school. Grade upon grade, each adding to the last. I still think that way. Even if there were no scriptures involved I would believe in MMP. Very few could meet that stature of Abraham, Adam, or Joseph Smith in this life alone. I mean you have to be a cherub and then a seraphim and then a Christ and an Adam and whatever else. These seem like steps to me. I think it would be a unloving and unjust God who would develop a world and say okay you get one shot to learn and experience all that you can to progress in the following world and be like me or my son. How truly unfair! Babies die at birth or soon there after, old men who live a full life and repent in the last second etc. But all are judged the same? Naah I like the school idea, grade to grade (grace to grace) graduation to graduation (exaltation to exaltation)

I coined a phrase years ago...
"This Creation a one room schoolhouse, were just not ALL in the same grade!

Shalom

Posted: **August 18th, 2019, 12:25 am**

KoZ. Mmp does not necessarily mean many attemps per level /order /ladder rung or whatever you want to call it. It means these rungs / levels indicate there is more than one mortality along the way.

More than one mortal probation. Multiple mortal probations.

Posted: **August 18th, 2019, 1:37 am**

Kingdom of ZION wrote: ↑August 18th, 2019, 12:08 amSatan is not Lucifer! Satan is that old Serpent let into the Garden of Eden to tempt our first parents here. It was Lucifer who spoke through the Serpent, and beguiled the Second Eve, making Satan appear as an angel of light and causing Eve to think she had begotten a man child from G_d. It was Satan who was cursed and lost his limbs.[/color]

Devil

The English word devil in the KJV is used to represent several different words in Greek (slanderer, demon, and adversary) and Hebrew (spoiler). The devil is the enemy of righteousness and of those who seek to do the will of God. Literally a spirit son of God, he was at one time “an angel” in authority in the presence of God; however, he rebelled in the premortal life, at which time he persuaded a third of the spirit children of the Father to rebel with him, in opposition to the plan of salvation championed by Jehovah (Jesus Christ). “Thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29:37). They were cast out of heaven and were denied the experience of mortal bodies and earth life (Isa. 14:12–15; Rev. 12:4–9; 2 Ne. 2:17; 9:8; D&C 29:36–38; 76:25–26; 93:25; Moses 4:1–4; Abr. 3:27–28).

Latter-day revelation confirms the biblical teaching that the devil is a reality and that he does strive to lead men and women from the work of God. One of the major techniques of the devil is to cause human beings to think they are following God’s ways, when in reality they are deceived by the devil to follow other paths.

Since the devil and his premortal angels have no physical body of flesh and bones, they often seek to possess the bodies of mortal beings. There are many such instances recorded in scripture (Matt. 9:32; 12:22; Mark 1:24; 5:7; Luke 8:30; Acts 19:15; see also Mosiah 3:6). Such can be evicted by the power of faith in Jesus Christ and the exercise of the holy priesthood. Jesus gave this power to His disciples (Matt. 10:1; Mark 16:17; Luke 10:17; Acts 5:16; D&C 84:67).

The devil is called the prince of this world (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11); the adversary (1 Pet. 5:8); Beelzebub, meaning the prince of the devils (Mark 3:22); the wicked one (Matt. 13:38); the enemy (Matt. 13:39); Lucifer (Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:26); Satan (Rev. 12:9); prince of the power of the air (Eph. 2:2–3); Perdition (D&C 76:26); son of the morning (D&C 76:26–27); that old serpent (Rev. 12:9; D&C 76:28); the great dragon (Rev. 12:7–9); a murderer from the beginning (John 8:44); a liar from the beginning (D&C 93:25); and the accuser (Rev. 12:10).

He is miserable in his situation and “stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness” (2 Ne. 9:9). He tries to imitate the work of God by transforming himself nigh unto an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:12–15; 2 Ne. 9:9; D&C 128:20). He is also a worker of miracles, by which he deceives many upon the earth (Rev. 13:1–15). In fact, the scripture says he deceives the whole world (Rev. 12:9). He can cite scripture to make his point seem plausible (Matt. 4:1–11). All of this is his scheme to make man miserable like himself. Protection against the influence of the devil is found by obedience to the commandments and laws of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The message of all the prophets and apostles is that truth, righteousness, and peace shall in the end prevail over error, sin, and war; the faithful shall triumph over all their afflictions and enemies and shall triumph over the devil. There shall be a complete and lasting victory of righteousness over wickedness on this earth, which will be done by the power of the Lord Jesus Christ.
.................................................................................................................................................................
Lucifer

Literally the Shining One; also Lightbringer or Son of the Morning. Lucifer is also known as Satan or the devil. The name Lucifer appears only once in the Bible (Isa. 14:12; compare Luke 10:18). Apparently Lucifer is the name of the devil before his rebellion and fall. Latter-day revelation clarifies the fall of Lucifer and equates him with Satan (D&C 76:25–38; see also Rev. 12; 2 Ne. 9:8; D&C 29:36–38; Moses 4:1–4).
.................................................................................................................................................................
Satan

Satan stood up against Israel, 1 Chr. 21:1.
Satan came also among them, Job 1:6.
let Satan stand at his right hand, Ps. 109:6 (Zech. 3:1).
Get thee hence, Satan, Matt. 4:10 (Luke 4:8).
if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided, Matt. 12:26 (Mark 3:23; Luke 11:18).
Get thee behind me, Satan, Matt. 16:23 (Mark 8:33).
forty days, tempted of Satan, Mark 1:13.
I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven, Luke 10:18.
this woman … whom Satan hath bound, Luke 13:16.
Then entered Satan into Judas, Luke 22:3.
Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you, Luke 22:31 (3 Ne. 18:18; Ether 8:26).
after the sop Satan entered into him, John 13:27.
to turn them … from the power of Satan unto God, Acts 26:18.
God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet, Rom. 16:20.
To deliver such an one unto Satan, 1 Cor. 5:5.
Satan tempt you not for your incontinency, 1 Cor. 7:5.
Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light, 2 Cor. 11:14.
messenger of Satan to buffet me, 2 Cor. 12:7.
Satan hindered us, 1 Thes. 2:18.
coming is after the working of Satan, 2 Thes. 2:9.
whom I have delivered unto Satan, 1 Tim. 1:20.
some are already turned aside after Satan, 1 Tim. 5:15.
they … are the synagogue of Satan, Rev. 2:9 (3:9).
I know … even where Satan’s seat is, Rev. 2:13.
many as have not … known the depths of Satan, Rev. 2:24.
cast out, that old serpent, called … Satan, Rev. 12:9.
Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Rev. 20:2 (D&C 43:31; 45:55; 88:110).
thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed, Rev. 20:7.
because of the righteousness of his people, Satan has no power, 1 Ne. 22:26.
Satan shall have power over the hearts of … men no more, 2 Ne. 30:18.
chained down … according to the power and captivity of Satan, Alma 12:17.
Satan did stir up the hearts of … Nephites, Hel. 6:21 (D&C 10:20).
Satan did lead away the hearts of the people, 3 Ne. 6:16.
change … that Satan could have no power over them, 3 Ne. 28:39.
Satan had full power over the hearts of the people, Ether 15:19 (1 Ne. 13:29).
Pray always … that you may conquer Satan, D&C 10:5.
Satan hath put it into their hearts to alter the words, D&C 10:10.
Satan … stirreth them up to iniquity, D&C 10:20.
Satan thinketh to overpower your testimony, D&C 10:33.
power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, D&C 29:47.
Satan shall tremble, D&C 35:24.
Satan hath sought to deceive you, D&C 50:3.
Satan is abroad in the land, D&C 52:14.
Satan putteth it into their hearts to anger, D&C 63:28.
Satan seeketh to destroy his soul, D&C 64:17.
we beheld Satan, that old serpent, D&C 76:28.
Satan seeketh to turn their hearts away from the truth, D&C 78:10.
delivered over to the buffetings of Satan, D&C 78:12 (82:21; 104:10; 132:26).
in whose hearts the enemy, even Satan, sitteth to reign, D&C 86:3.
cannot escape the buffetings of Satan, D&C 104:9.
Satan seeketh to destroy, D&C 132:57.
Satan came tempting him, Moses 1:12.
became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, Moses 4:4.
Satan … knew not the mind of God, Moses 4:6.
Satan came among them, saying: I am also a son of God, Moses 5:13.
Cain loved Satan more than God, Moses 5:18.
Satan had great dominion among men, Moses 6:15.
Satan shall be their father, Moses 7:37.
................................................................................................................................................................
Lucifer, Satan and devil are the same individual as proven by scripture. This is testimony enough, Amen.

Posted: **August 18th, 2019, 6:57 am**

MMbelieve wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 10:26 pm I really do not understand why people who are believing the gospel and good members of this church are being put down for not believing some idea that is not even part of our doctrinal belief. Seriously makes zero sense to me why our own are shaming us for not going on a journey with them to believe in something that presents itself as against the standard teachings.

Interesting times we live in for sure.

I’m not putting you or anyone else down, MM. I do think you are a good, believing member and I think that is great. I can tell you are a woman and a mother of great faith who is doing your best to do as you feel God wants you to do. I don’t expect you or jmack or RR to believe the way I do in order to earn my respect — I promise!

It does seem a little inconsistent that you point out that our beliefs on MMP aren’t “official doctrine” and somehow disqualify us from the title of “good, believing member” when you yourself hold certain beliefs that aren’t necessarily mainstream —you don’t buy the church’s official polygamy narrative, for example. I disagree with you on that point, as I do believe polygamy is a principle sanctioned by God at times. But I don’t think it makes you any less of a faithful member of the church to believe differently

I hope you don’t mind me pointing out, as well, that if anyone is being put down on this thread, it is those of us who believe in MMP. We’ve been told we don’t appreciate the Savior’s atonement and it has been suggested that we should be disciplined by the church! We are “good, believing members”, too! I’m getting ready to head out the door to sacrament meeting as we speak. I hold a calling. I love our leaders. I deeply believe this is Christ’s restored church. I love him and I love learning about him. I am doing my darndest to teach the gospel to my children. I just happen to see our eternal existence in a bigger picture way than most other people. I have sought revelation on this topic and others and have received answers. My understanding of it has in no way taken me further from the Savior and his church. Only closer.

I don’t get up and teach my MMP belief in Sunday school. I don’t teach my children about it outright. Why? Because it’s a meatier topic that some are ready to chew on while others will choke. This forum is one that we discuss these kinds of topics, and if people are ready and have the desire to learn more, they are welcome to join in the conversation. But sharing something we understand does not mean we think everyone has to agree in order to be considered a good person. And if I’m wrong? Whoopdiedoo! I will have given it my all in my one and only mortal probation and I can throw in the mortality towel and laugh at those silly ideas I used to have! But I really don’t see how I will be any worse off than if I hadn’t considered the possibility of MMP.

Posted: **August 18th, 2019, 7:14 am**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑August 18th, 2019, 1:37 am
Kingdom of ZION wrote: ↑August 18th, 2019, 12:08 amSatan is not Lucifer! Satan is that old Serpent let into the Garden of Eden to tempt our first parents here. It was Lucifer who spoke through the Serpent, and beguiled the Second Eve, making Satan appear as an angel of light and causing Eve to think she had begotten a man child from G_d. It was Satan who was cursed and lost his limbs.[/color]
Devil

The English word devil in the KJV is used to represent several different words in Greek (slanderer, demon, and adversary) and Hebrew (spoiler). The devil is the enemy of righteousness and of those who seek to do the will of God. Literally a spirit son of God, he was at one time “an angel” in authority in the presence of God; however, he rebelled in the premortal life, at which time he persuaded a third of the spirit children of the Father to rebel with him, in opposition to the plan of salvation championed by Jehovah (Jesus Christ). “Thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29:37). They were cast out of heaven and were denied the experience of mortal bodies and earth life (Isa. 14:12–15; Rev. 12:4–9; 2 Ne. 2:17; 9:8; D&C 29:36–38; 76:25–26; 93:25; Moses 4:1–4; Abr. 3:27–28).

Latter-day revelation confirms the biblical teaching that the devil is a reality and that he does strive to lead men and women from the work of God. One of the major techniques of the devil is to cause human beings to think they are following God’s ways, when in reality they are deceived by the devil to follow other paths.

Since the devil and his premortal angels have no physical body of flesh and bones, they often seek to possess the bodies of mortal beings. There are many such instances recorded in scripture (Matt. 9:32; 12:22; Mark 1:24; 5:7; Luke 8:30; Acts 19:15; see also Mosiah 3:6). Such can be evicted by the power of faith in Jesus Christ and the exercise of the holy priesthood. Jesus gave this power to His disciples (Matt. 10:1; Mark 16:17; Luke 10:17; Acts 5:16; D&C 84:67).

The devil is called the prince of this world (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11); the adversary (1 Pet. 5:8); Beelzebub, meaning the prince of the devils (Mark 3:22); the wicked one (Matt. 13:38); the enemy (Matt. 13:39); Lucifer (Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:26); Satan (Rev. 12:9); prince of the power of the air (Eph. 2:2–3); Perdition (D&C 76:26); son of the morning (D&C 76:26–27); that old serpent (Rev. 12:9; D&C 76:28); the great dragon (Rev. 12:7–9); a murderer from the beginning (John 8:44); a liar from the beginning (D&C 93:25); and the accuser (Rev. 12:10).

He is miserable in his situation and “stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness” (2 Ne. 9:9). He tries to imitate the work of God by transforming himself nigh unto an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:12–15; 2 Ne. 9:9; D&C 128:20). He is also a worker of miracles, by which he deceives many upon the earth (Rev. 13:1–15). In fact, the scripture says he deceives the whole world (Rev. 12:9). He can cite scripture to make his point seem plausible (Matt. 4:1–11). All of this is his scheme to make man miserable like himself. Protection against the influence of the devil is found by obedience to the commandments and laws of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The message of all the prophets and apostles is that truth, righteousness, and peace shall in the end prevail over error, sin, and war; the faithful shall triumph over all their afflictions and enemies and shall triumph over the devil. There shall be a complete and lasting victory of righteousness over wickedness on this earth, which will be done by the power of the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Lucifer

Literally the Shining One; also Lightbringer or Son of the Morning. Lucifer is also known as Satan or the devil. The name Lucifer appears only once in the Bible (Isa. 14:12; compare Luke 10:18). Apparently Lucifer is the name of the devil before his rebellion and fall. Latter-day revelation clarifies the fall of Lucifer and equates him with Satan (D&C 76:25–38; see also Rev. 12; 2 Ne. 9:8; D&C 29:36–38; Moses 4:1–4).
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Satan

Satan stood up against Israel, 1 Chr. 21:1.
Satan came also among them, Job 1:6.
let Satan stand at his right hand, Ps. 109:6 (Zech. 3:1).
Get thee hence, Satan, Matt. 4:10 (Luke 4:8).
if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided, Matt. 12:26 (Mark 3:23; Luke 11:18).
Get thee behind me, Satan, Matt. 16:23 (Mark 8:33).
forty days, tempted of Satan, Mark 1:13.
I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven, Luke 10:18.
this woman … whom Satan hath bound, Luke 13:16.
Then entered Satan into Judas, Luke 22:3.
Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you, Luke 22:31 (3 Ne. 18:18; Ether 8:26).
after the sop Satan entered into him, John 13:27.
to turn them … from the power of Satan unto God, Acts 26:18.
God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet, Rom. 16:20.
To deliver such an one unto Satan, 1 Cor. 5:5.
Satan tempt you not for your incontinency, 1 Cor. 7:5.
Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light, 2 Cor. 11:14.
messenger of Satan to buffet me, 2 Cor. 12:7.
Satan hindered us, 1 Thes. 2:18.
coming is after the working of Satan, 2 Thes. 2:9.
whom I have delivered unto Satan, 1 Tim. 1:20.
some are already turned aside after Satan, 1 Tim. 5:15.
they … are the synagogue of Satan, Rev. 2:9 (3:9).
I know … even where Satan’s seat is, Rev. 2:13.
many as have not … known the depths of Satan, Rev. 2:24.
cast out, that old serpent, called … Satan, Rev. 12:9.
Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Rev. 20:2 (D&C 43:31; 45:55; 88:110).
thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed, Rev. 20:7.
because of the righteousness of his people, Satan has no power, 1 Ne. 22:26.
Satan shall have power over the hearts of … men no more, 2 Ne. 30:18.
chained down … according to the power and captivity of Satan, Alma 12:17.
Satan did stir up the hearts of … Nephites, Hel. 6:21 (D&C 10:20).
Satan did lead away the hearts of the people, 3 Ne. 6:16.
change … that Satan could have no power over them, 3 Ne. 28:39.
Satan had full power over the hearts of the people, Ether 15:19 (1 Ne. 13:29).
Pray always … that you may conquer Satan, D&C 10:5.
Satan hath put it into their hearts to alter the words, D&C 10:10.
Satan … stirreth them up to iniquity, D&C 10:20.
Satan thinketh to overpower your testimony, D&C 10:33.
power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, D&C 29:47.
Satan shall tremble, D&C 35:24.
Satan hath sought to deceive you, D&C 50:3.
Satan is abroad in the land, D&C 52:14.
Satan putteth it into their hearts to anger, D&C 63:28.
Satan seeketh to destroy his soul, D&C 64:17.
we beheld Satan, that old serpent, D&C 76:28.
Satan seeketh to turn their hearts away from the truth, D&C 78:10.
delivered over to the buffetings of Satan, D&C 78:12 (82:21; 104:10; 132:26).
in whose hearts the enemy, even Satan, sitteth to reign, D&C 86:3.
cannot escape the buffetings of Satan, D&C 104:9.
Satan seeketh to destroy, D&C 132:57.
Satan came tempting him, Moses 1:12.
became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, Moses 4:4.
Satan … knew not the mind of God, Moses 4:6.
Satan came among them, saying: I am also a son of God, Moses 5:13.
Cain loved Satan more than God, Moses 5:18.
Satan had great dominion among men, Moses 6:15.
Satan shall be their father, Moses 7:37.
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Lucifer, Satan and devil are the same individual as proven by scripture. This is testimony enough, Amen.

There are so many false understanding listed here, I do not have the time to illuminate them all. Such as the Messiah being Jehovah. Is he a Yehovah... an Eternal Son? Yes. Does He stand in that Office in this creation? Yes, in this temporal realm. Does He come in the Name of the Great Yahovah, on His Father's errand? Yes, but He has not ascended to that calling yet in the eternities. In this Creation, the actual Great Yahovah is His Grandfather, and our G_d, Yah!

Will we agree on any of these things? Probably not. Does it matter? No, not right now. Your contending that basic mathematics is true and how multiplication and addition is how everything works and can be explained here as true. I am taking about Quantum Physic, and the both do not jive from your understanding. Yes they are both mathematical in nature but were not speaking from the same position of experience or understanding of how things work, in the realms outside of here. Does that make you wrong? No! It just points to where we are on the path of Eternal Progression.

Joseph Smith said that he only revealed one percent of the knowledge that had been revealed to him. Why, because of the hardheadedness of the Saints! Nothing has changed! My revelations does not match up with what you Church is publishing in a dictionary of Gospel terms. They are trying to make milk (the weakest of gospel concepts) palatable to the most weakest of Saints, by adding so much water, it taste like liquid chalk to those who raise cows, who drink cream rich milk straight from the source and even butcher some of their cows and eat the meat from them.

That seems extreme and barbaric to those who like the well processed and packaged bottles found in stores and know no other way. One path is unhealthy if the truth be known, and the other path is not for the faint at heart! Will either path save you from death? No, but the fullness of life is not found in the man made constructs of what is suppose to be good for us!

Agency, line upon line, and the level of ones faith, makes all the difference in this world from being a paid minister to what Joseph Smith was. I know you can see these differences... I just cannot find the words needed to explain to you why there are these differences. You have the have walked the path, to come to it yourself (if you are willing). That is the difference... what different Spirits are willing to bear.

Shalom

Posted: **August 18th, 2019, 8:03 am**

Kingdom of ZION wrote: ↑August 18th, 2019, 7:14 amThere are so many false understanding listed here, I would not have the time to illuminate them all. Such as the Messiah being Jehovah. Is he a Yehovah... an Eternal Son? Yes. Does He stand in that Office in this creation? Yes, in this temporal realm. Does He has come in the Name of the Great Yahovah, on His Father's errand? Yes, but He has not ascended to that calling yet in the eternities. In this Creation, the actual Great Yahovah is His Grandfather, and our G_d, Yah!

Will we agree on any of these things? Probably not. Does it matter? No, not right now. Your contending that basic mathematics is true and how multiplication and addition is how everything works and can be explained here as true. I am taking about Quantum Physic, and the both do not jive from your understanding. Yes they are both mathematical in nature but were not speaking from the same position of experience or understanding of how things work, in the realms outside of here. Does that make you wrong? No! It just point to where we are on the path of Eternal Progression.

Joseph Smith said that he only revealed one percent of the knowledge that had been revealed to him. Why, because of the hardheadedness of the Saints! Nothing has changed! My revelations does not match up with what you Church is publishing in a dictionary of Gospel terms. They are trying to make milk (the weakest of gospel concerts) palatable to the most weakest of Saints, but adding so much water, it taste like liquid chalk to those who raise cows, who drink cream rich milk straight from the source and even butcher some of their cows and eat the meat from them.

That seems extreme and barbaric to those who like the well processed and packaged bottles found in stores and know no other way. One path is unhealthy if the truth be known, and the other path is not for the faint at heart! Will either path save you from death? No, but the fullness of life is not found in the man made constructs of what is suppost to be good for us!

Agency, line upon line, and the level of ones faith, makes all the difference in this world from being a paid minister to what Joseph Smith was. I know you can see these differences... I just cannot find the words needed to explain to you why there are these differences. You have the have walked the path, to come to it yourself (if you are willing). That is the difference... what different Spirits are willing to bear.

Shalom

I believe that you believe what you believe to be true, but what you believe I don't believe in full, so my belief cannot fully coincide with what you believe you believe to be true. What you believe is not believed by believers in the gospel of Jesus Christ that believe what they believe what the scriptures teach the saints to believe. So believe what you want to believe but don't expect everyone to believe it. Their beliefs suit them as does yours suit you.

It is a sad thing that all of us are not one in mind with Christ.

Eph 4:5
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 14:33
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Posted: **August 18th, 2019, 8:15 am**

solonan wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 11:36 pm Ya'll are awesome, just awesome! All are saints in our midst! Differing thoughts are okay, growth is okay, we are here to learn and experience. I love the defense of truth as you understand it. I am NOT telling you- you are wrong or right. I do know how I believe and it is this. As a kid I recall reading Joseph Smith's comments, it will take a long while to achieve godhood. I couldn't imagine how it should occur. I thought then that it must be like going to school. Grade upon grade, each adding to the last. I still think that way. Even if there were no scriptures involved I would believe in MMP. Very few could meet that stature of Abraham, Adam, or Joseph Smith in this life alone. I mean you have to be a cherub and then a seraphim and then a Christ and an Adam and whatever else. These seem like steps to me. I think it would be a unloving and unjust God who would develop a world and say okay you get one shot to learn and experience all that you can to progress in the following world and be like me or my son. How truly unfair! Babies die at birth or soon there after, old men who live a full life and repent in the last second etc. But all are judged the same? Naah I like the school idea, grade to grade (grace to grace) graduation to graduation (exaltation to exaltation)

Is life only fair if we all have the same experience? We all need to go through the same trials then, in different gender bodies too, and of course, to be absolutely fair we should experience life as an animal otherwise its.not really the full mortal experience. And if a cherub can turn into a seraphim and then a christ, then a human should be able to be many different types of mortal.being. But if the one life we live is designed perfectly for me or you to have the experiences and trials necessary for only me or you, then one life in mortality is all that is needed. It's a crappy plan and a mediocre god to be so inefficient that you have to send your children down over and over, because you can't provide what's needed the one time. And the mortal sphere is a tiny blip in eternity, unless you are into MMP, then it's a big part of it. So yea, I don't see it this way either.

Posted: **August 18th, 2019, 9:19 am**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑August 18th, 2019, 8:03 amWhat you believe is not believed by believers in the gospel of Jesus Christ that believe what they believe what the scriptures teach the saints to believe. So believe what you want to believe but don't expect everyone to believe it. Their beliefs suit them as does yours suit you.

It is a sad thing that all of us are not one in mind with Christ.

Eph 4:5
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 14:33
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

I made it clear you do not believe what I have received... I am glad you got the point. You skipped over the possibility that there are different level to the Path, like rungs on Jacob's ladder to heaven. But yes you can only see what your willing to see... I have not the words for you.

However, I take great exception to you statement, "What you believe is not believed by believers in the gospel of Jesus Christ"!

As if you or your current Church's teachings even represents the full and complete Gospel of the Messiah! I know after cookie cutting almost half of the Gospel out over the past century, because of inconvenient truths and false traditions, you do not stand any closer to the true Gospel than any other Christian faiths. Do you have greater understandings? Yes, some among you do, however when compared and weighted in the balance, your cup is full because you are weighted down with all manners of idolatries! When you supplant more knowledge, you have left charity, humility, meekness and a few other attributes behind! Why do people make fun of the Jews as in trying to Jew people down in bartering? The same reason people express such things about Utahn's being the fraud capital of the United States. Why do you think such happened there? Same paths of apostasy is walked by those who think they are G_d's chosen or special people. Sorry... many things a self-evident even though they are not written for you in the scriptures!

Posted: **August 18th, 2019, 9:32 am**

When a student is about to go to college to be a doctor, for example, do they have to go back to kindergarten and work their way up through grade school and middle school and then high school all over again if for some reason they earned their high school diploma by the seat of their pants the first time? Did they have to have a 4.0 GPA before being allowed in the college doors? Do they have to continue going back the through grade cycles over and over until they finally obtain the 4.0? Of course not, right?

Well. God isn't that cruel either. He allows into his kingdom those that have a broken heart and contrite spirit, humility, hunger and thirst for righteousness, love, faith, repentance and good works, to name a few. These can be obtained in one life time, this one.

Then those who die with these attributes, they will go on to learn more and more over eons of time until they know enough to become Gods and stand on their own. It's like going on to college for higher education.

Those who die without these attributes will be assigned lesser kingdoms where they will remain. They cannot improve and keep going higher into other kingdoms.

The major difference between college and a kingdom is the weight of glory attached to the glory. A person that is only used to a telestial glory cannot abide a terrestrial glory, nor can a terrestrial person be able to abide a celestial glory. And, of course, this is taught to us in scripture. This is not doctrine by righteousrepublic.

D&C 132:16,17
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

Gee, no MMP here.

2 Cor 4:16-18
16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Mosiah 3:24-27
24 And thus saith the Lord: They shall stand as a bright testimony against this people, at the judgment day; whereof they shall be judged, every man according to his works, whether they be good, or whether they be evil.
25 And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls.
26 Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them than it could deny that Adam should fall because of his partaking of the forbidden fruit; therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever.
27 And their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever. Thus hath the Lord commanded me. Amen.

How would it be to go from life to life unable to get rid of sins from previous lives? Doesn't sound fun to me, whatsoever.

Posted: **August 18th, 2019, 9:42 am**

Davka wrote: ↑August 18th, 2019, 6:57 am
MMbelieve wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 10:26 pm I really do not understand why people who are believing the gospel and good members of this church are being put down for not believing some idea that is not even part of our doctrinal belief. Seriously makes zero sense to me why our own are shaming us for not going on a journey with them to believe in something that presents itself as against the standard teachings.

Interesting times we live in for sure.
I’m not putting you or anyone else down, MM. I do think you are a good, believing member and I think that is great. I can tell you are a woman and a mother of great faith who is doing your best to do as you feel God wants you to do. I don’t expect you or jmack or RR to believe the way I do in order to earn my respect — I promise!

It does seem a little inconsistent that you point out that our beliefs on MMP aren’t “official doctrine” and somehow disqualify us from the title of “good, believing member” when you yourself hold certain beliefs that aren’t necessarily mainstream —you don’t buy the church’s official polygamy narrative, for example. I disagree with you on that point, as I do believe polygamy is a principle sanctioned by God at times. But I don’t think it makes you any less of a faithful member of the church to believe differently

I hope you don’t mind me pointing out, as well, that if anyone is being put down on this thread, it is those of us who believe in MMP. We’ve been told we don’t appreciate the Savior’s atonement and it has been suggested that we should be disciplined by the church! We are “good, believing members”, too! I’m getting ready to head out the door to sacrament meeting as we speak. I hold a calling. I love our leaders. I deeply believe this is Christ’s restored church. I love him and I love learning about him. I am doing my darndest to teach the gospel to my children. I just happen to see our eternal existence in a bigger picture way than most other people. I have sought revelation on this topic and others and have received answers. My understanding of it has in no way taken me further from the Savior and his church. Only closer.

I don’t get up and teach my MMP belief in Sunday school. I don’t teach my children about it outright. Why? Because it’s a meatier topic that some are ready to chew on while others will choke. This forum is one that we discuss these kinds of topics, and if people are ready and have the desire to learn more, they are welcome to join in the conversation. But sharing something we understand does not mean we think everyone has to agree in order to be considered a good person. And if I’m wrong? Whoopdiedoo! I will have given it my all in my one and only mortal probation and I can throw in the mortality towel and laugh at those silly ideas I used to have! But I really don’t see how I will be any worse off than if I hadn’t considered the possibility of MMP.

I in no way have any judgement to cast on peoples standing in the church or relationship with God or Christ. I do not cast anyone away nor do I even feel the right to do such a thing or in any position to even think like that. Im a fallen creature myself and struggle daily.

I posted an ensign article after researching the church's stance on the idea of MMP/reincarnation. In that article it stated that these beliefs undermined the atonement, that is where my understanding came from about the atonement.

As far as my belief in the churches narrative about early church polygamy, I am okay with what they say (which is not much) because I know it happened. I know there will be some polygamy in heaven simply because of the marriages that have occurred here on earth. I do not rule it out except when people try to say that it is REQUIRED to live to have eternal exaltation and live with God again. It is not required, and that is my really only beef with it which happens to agree with BY and todays prophets. Hope that clears it up.

I too believe in an elaborate view of eternity as best my brain can comprehend such a thing as eternity. There is more after this life and after the millennium and after people are assigned to a kingdom. I view this point as just the beginning where we will begin operating in a different realm with an entire new path of progression laid out. I believe every member of this church believes this as well simply because we believe somehow and someway if we desire we can advance to the stage of Godhood.

My first problem with MMP is coming back to earth after you have already lived a life and obtained a body. This is the purpose of mortality, to gain a body and get back home. There will be plenty of growth opportunities once we leave this earth in both the spirit realm and the various kingdoms. Once we have our body reunited, we will no longer have limitations of learning and growing, this coming back to obtain a new body is not needed in anyway.

In the pre-mortal realm we were limited in our growth potential simply because we had no body. The body is a gift to us a tender mercy given to aid us on our journey to being like the father, without it we are wonderfully helpless children who cannot “grow up” so to speak. Once we have received our body, a whole new path of progression opens for us and we have the opportunity to start making new choices and beginning the process of mastering the flesh and using it to become more like the father. I see this entrance to mortality with this thing we call a body, as a one time deal. If I have crossed that starting line, why would I need to do that again? I wouldn’t, I would simply continue the race and go to the next station with the same body I have been given and been working with.

I must say that those who are even taking the time to converse in this thread about MMP and offer some opposing scripture are not trying to be condemning (at least originally) but showing how the various beliefs MMP carries have some real roadblocks in what the standard and generally understood plan of happiness is. People posting this have received flak that they are weak in their faith (immature) or not ready to understand such a meaty matter, when that really is a misjudgment. Its those comments that can harm people. We should never cast such judgements that can actually harm people especially when they are doing nothing wrong by not believing in MMP.

There are aspects of MMP that do coincide with the gospel and aspects that do not. Perhaps we should start discussing aspects instead of the entire idea and casting judgements. Im sure every member of this church has pondered how one actually becomes like God and thus are capable of extending beyond the current knowledge we have. It is not a front at sensibilities and it doesn't break people like glass, those are low ball attacks aimed to put someone down...

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